693
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Q.--Did Mr. Carvalho give you any reason for submitting it? Did he suggest any change?
A--I cannot remember that he did so.
Q.--Did he say anything to you? Did he ask you to change it, or did he merely submit this order and ask you whether it was to be acted on? Because we understood Mr. Carvalho to say that he disapproved of it and we thought perhaps that he might have submitted the question to you?
A--I think it exceedingly unlikely. I cannot absolutely say what the conversation was. I consider it practically impossible that he should have said so to me because I was practically in his hands and I should certainly not have opposed him without good reason.
Q.--I see you have noted in the margin "System inaugurated by Mr. Lister to be continued for the present".
A. Yes.
Q.--That does not bring anything to your memory?
A.--No, it does not recall anything very clear. That was on January 3rd and I entered the Treasury on the 1st.
Q.--Have you made any change since about the signing of receipts?
A. At present I am signing practically everything in the Department.
Q.--Do you propose that that should continue?
A. Yes, I think if possible. It is only a question of convenience to the public. I think it preferable that it should be continued if it can but it seems to me to be necessary that the chief clerk should also have the power of signing in the absence of the Treasurer. I am up at the Legislative Council for two hours sometimes and receipts would be kept waiting, which leads to dissatisfaction.
Mr. Thurburn. In any case it would be a different man who signed to the one who makes out the receipt. You would alter that system?
A.--The receipt now passes through a number of hands before reaching me. In addition to the shroff the clerk in charge initials the receipt and then they come to me to sign. The cashier would be the only man to whom my powers would be deputed.
Q.--Originally it was Alves who made out the receipt and the chief clerk signed it. That was altered by Mr. Lister, and now you have gone back to the old system?
A.--Practically, yes.
The Chairman.--You took over the charge of the Treasury on January 1st, 1891?
A.--Yes.
Q.--Did you look at the book of 1890 to see whether it had been balanced?
A.--No, I cannot remember looking at the previous books.
Q.--Did Mr. Nicolle ever ask you to have the Rent Roll for 1890 balanced?
A. Yes, he did.
Q.--Can you tell us about what time?
A.--No, I cannot. I have not any idea but I am satisfied that he did ask me sometime, I think, in 1891.
Q. What did you do in consequence of that request?
A.--I told Alves that his book was required to be balanced, and he pleaded stress of work.
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Q. Did you speak to him more than once?
A.--I can only remember speaking once. I spoke to him so often about getting in arrears and different things of that sort that it is difficult to remember whether I alluded to that particular subject more than once.
Q.--As you relied upon the audit for checking your receipts did you not consider that the balancing of this book was important to enable the auditor to check the receipts and payments?
A.--I am afraid I left that to the Auditor.
Q.--Did you consider it was very important that these books should be balanced?
A.--No, I cannot say that at the time I appreciated the full importance, because I did not know he was in the habit of receiving money and I looked upon it simply as a clerical arrear, and as the man was really hard worked, and a very willing worker I practically left it to him to get it up as soon as he could. I did not insist upon its being done immediately.
Mr. Bird.--The Auditor did not explain to you the importance of having it done?
A.--I have no recollection that he did. I think the Auditor will acknowledge that I have carried out everything that he has suggested unless it was a question of principle that I did not approve of. I think he would be the first to acknowledge that I endeavoured to carry out everything that was brought to me and which was necessary for him to carry out his work.
Q.--You said in your evidence that you did not know that the arrears were really dangerous. How could you get at the arrears unless this book was made up?
A.--I meant to say that the arrears in the making up of his book were not dangerous. I looked upon the arrears as simply clerical arrears.
Q.--You said you looked upon Mr. Carvalho as having some supervision over the office staff. Why did you say that?
A.--Because he was a man who had been first clerk for a very long time and I take it as natural that the first clerk should have the supervision.
Q. Are there any instructions, or was he ever told that any supervision was required from him over the office?
A.--I don't know of any such instructions.
Q.--Was it ever laid down?
A.--I cannot find any division of work laid down anywhere.
Q.--Then why did you regard him as having some supervision if it was never laid down that he had supervision?
A.--It is possible that he did not regard it as his duty but he was practically Treasurer for many years and he has drawn great attention to his importance, and the importance of his work, and I should have thought that when a new Treasurer came in it was his business if it was anybody's business to look after the staff and help the Treasurer.
Q.--I take it you did not look back to those Rent Rolls and see what the arrears really were?
A.--No, it was only gradually that I mastered the different items in the Treasury, it being entirely new work to me.
Q.--Could the shroff speak English?
A.--Which shroff?
Q.--The man who received Crown Rent.
A.--I believe he could say a few words. I spoke to him in Chinese.