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Did that include your own Department ?
Yes. The Treasury collects about $\frac{3}{4}$ds. of the whole revenue of the Colony. If I did the work properly I should have to do the entire work the Auditor does in my department and the Auditor has already explained that he comes sometimes for a fortnight in the month,
and
Mr. Thorburn. It is not expected that you personally should do it, but a different separate officer.
A.--That is perfectly possible.
Mr. Bird. Then you want an addition to your staff?
A. Yes. I may also say that I wrote this dispatch—it was a very full dispatch—pointing out the way the audit had been introduced here, and the fact that the Secretary of State had said that the Treasurer would have no auditing to do when the new audit system came in, and that the auditor would himself be able to do the work of checking the receipts. The Secretary of State's Instructions do not tally with the Financial Instructions. After writing that dispatch I went on leave and while I was at home I went to the Colonial Office. They had my dispatch before them and they confined themselves to asking me what kind of check I thought sufficient and they told me that they had not the slightest intention of increasing my staff if they could possibly help it. I said that I thought the Auditor's examination of the receipts was sufficient without also conducting an audit of the receipts.
Mr. Thurburn.--In fact he was to be the check?
A. Yes.
Mr. Bird.--And at the same time you refused to take any responsibility so long as the Auditor was doing it?
A. Yes. I could not do it in fact without an increased staff.
Mr. Thurburn.--The Financial Instructions say that the Treasurer is to have a separate check.
Mr. Bird. That the audit does not relieve the responsibility of the head of a department.
Mr. Thurburn.--It distinctly says that the Auditor is not supposed to check the Treasurer.
Mr. Bird.--Did you receive any reply to that dispatch?
A.--No. The dispatch is on record. The original is here. I was looking at it only the other day.
The Chairman.--About the balancing of the lists sent in to you by different authorities such as licences and others, have those lists ever been balanced with the receipts or checked with the receipts to see whether you have received all the fees for those licences?
A. That was done in the Auditor's ordinary book. He was to check, so I understood, every receipt.
Q. Did you never check them? For instance, if you got a list of licences from the Colonial Secretary's Office or the Police, or wherever it may be from, did you never check them?
A.--No, the general check I kept was that when the estimates of revenue were made up one would find out about what ought to be received, and if it fell below your estimate you would enquire why the amount was not received.
Q.--Who made out the estimates?
A.--The accountant.
Q.--He made out the estimates?
A. Yes.
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Q. Did you ever check those estimates?
A.--I used to go over them with him.
Q.--He practically made them out?
A. He submitted them to me. He used to consult me.
Mr. Bird. And if he was defrauding the Treasury he would naturally make the estimates less?
A.--Quite so.
Mr. Thurburn. In making our recommendations for the future working of the Office we would naturally say that all these lists, as well as crown rent, could be regularly balanced?
A. Of course.
Q.--Bring out a balance of the lists to see whether any defalcations had occurred?
A. Yes.
Q.--Would that be incompatible with the staff you have?
At the end of last year, only a few months ago, we got rid of three of the oldest hands in the Treasury. While this extra work is on I have shown a good saving in the Treasury—we have had to engage two extra men, showing a saving of $5,000 at present.
Q.--To carry out these checks, this balancing of the different lists, would it be necessary to have an increased staff?
A.--I should like to think over that, and see what the amount of work really was.
The Chairman.--This is what we propose. That the Rent Roll should be very much simplified. All you want is a column with the name and the Lot, another for the amount to be received, a column for the date of payment and another for the amount received. You would not want anything for arrears or anything of that kind. At the end of the third month after the amount became due a notice might be inserted in the Gazette calling upon debtors to pay up their Crown rent. At the end of the fourth month another notice stating that if the Crown rent in arrear is not paid up within one month the bills will be handed over to the Crown Solicitor. At the end of the fifth month you would be able to say very nearly what the total amount of arrears was and at the end of the sixth month the book ought to be closed. You would say "We ought to have received so much, we have received so much, the difference is accounted for by so-and-so not having paid." The list of arrears would be sent to the Crown Solicitor, the book would be closed and a new one opened. Then there would be no complications of arrears at all. It would not take a clerk very long to do that. There are a great many columns that he ought to add up every day.
A.--There is no intention that with the new staff there shall be any delay. The books can be balanced within reasonable time.
Q.--In the same way with the licences, a book should be kept of all licences issued with the date of payment and balanced.
A.--Yes.
Q.--Did Mr. Carvalho ever say anything to you about Mr. Lister's order directing that receipts should be signed by the clerks in charge instead of being signed by Mr. Carvalho or the Treasurer?
A.--Mr. Lister's instructions were submitted to me within three or four days of my entering the Treasury and I directed that no change should be made, at any rate for the present.
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