699
(44)
Q.—And what control was there over the shroff?
A.—Any money he received he paid to the cashier, Mr. Carvalho. The two occupied the same office.
Mr. Thurburn.—That is to say he gave him an account?
A.—And paid in the money.
Mr. Bird.—He received the hard cash?
A.—Yes, as far as I remember, and it was put in the safe for the day and paid into the bank at the end of the day.
The Chairman.—Do you know who used to sign the receipts for Crown Rent?
A.—I should say Mr. Alves would sign the receipts. It would not be my duty because I was absent during the greater part of the day.
Q.—Supposing it was Alves who signed the receipts, were you satisfied that the checks were sufficient to prevent defalcations of money?
A.—The checks I regarded as the auditing.
Mr. Thurburn.—You looked upon the Auditor as the check?
A.—Yes.
Q.—Did you read the "Financial Instructions" when they came out?
A.—In 1891 there were financial instructions.
The Chairman.—You looked upon the Auditor as responsible for the checks? Are any instructions to that effect?
A.—Not as far as I am aware.
Q.—Then why did you rely on the Auditor?
A.—That is the only practicable check.
Q.—Did you ever make any examinations, any surprise visits?
A.—I constantly did so.
Q.—These "Financial Instructions" lay down that the audit will not relieve the responsibility of the Treasurer.
A.—Those instructions, I think, have been issued since there was a permanent Treasurer, and that makes the whole of the difference.
Q.—I want to know whether there were any instructions in your time respecting the duties of the Treasurer and Auditor.
A.—There were departmental instructions, that is to say, financial instructions issued from home.
Mr. Thurburn.—Those instructions did not lay down that the Treasurer was to have separate and independent checks of his own?
A.—I am not prepared to say that. They were voluminous instructions but I should imagine that the intention at home was that the Treasurer should keep an independent check.
The Chairman.—Supposing money was received by Alves direct, that is to say members of the public came in and paid money direct to Alves, what check would you have upon Alves?
A.—The shroff only.
Q.—When money was taken direct to Alves?
A.—Really only the auditing.
Q.—Did you examine the Rent Roll from time to time?
A.—I was constantly examining the Rent Roll.
Q.—To see that it was properly kept?
A.—Yes.
(15)
Q.—Would you not consider that to enable the Auditor properly to check the accounts it was necessary that the Rent Roll should be written up and balanced?
A.—Yes.
Q.—Do you know whether the Rent Rolls for 1888 and 1889 were ever written up and balanced so as to enable the Auditor to check them?
A.—I am unable to say. I do not know.
Q.—But if you examined them as you say you did sometimes, would you not have seen whether they were balanced or not?
A.—I examined them with a view to seeing that the arrears were not getting to excess rather than with a view to see the correctness of the accounts.
Mr. Bird.—You thought the audit would cover that?
A.—Yes.
The Chairman.—In order that you should see the total amount of arrears at the end of the year was it not necessary that the Rent Roll should be added up?
A.—Yes; that is to say in order to see if there was a correct account.
Q.—And you cannot say whether the books for 1888 and 1889 were balanced while you were at the Treasury?
A.—I cannot say that.
Q.—Do you know when the Rent Roll for 1887 was written up?
A.—I do not know.
Q.—Did Alves ever complain to you that he had too much work and could not finish the Rent Roll of 1887?
A.—I think generally he said he had a good deal to do, but I do not know that he made any special complaint of the fact.
Q.—Do you know whether the Auditor ever brought to your notice the fact that the Rent Rolls for 1888 and 1889 were not written up?
A.—Never.
Mr. Bird.—Who was Auditor in those days?
A.—Dr. Stewart and Mr. Freire. Freire did the general work of auditing and it was to him I looked for auditing.
The Chairman.—You cannot tell us the year in which the book of 1888 was balanced or whether it was ever balanced?
A.—No, I cannot.
Q.—You say you were at the Treasury the whole of 1889?
A.—Yes.
Q.—Therefore the book of 1888 ought to have been written up?
A.—It should have been. Whether it was or not I cannot say.
Q.—Was it ever brought to your notice that the system of signing receipts had been altered by Mr. Lister; that formerly the receipts were signed by Mr. Carvalho, but that afterwards the receipts were signed some by Alves and some by Madar?
A.—I have no recollection of that.
Q.—What was the general time you went to the Office?
A.—That entirely depended upon the work I had to do in other departments.
Q.—Did you go every day?
A.—Yes, every day.
Q.—And how long would you remain there?
A.—That would also depend upon circumstances.