(20)
Mr. Bird. The difference gives the balance?
The Chairman. Have you made any claim to have paid?
A. That is not my business.
(20)
Q. Was it not your business to see that it was balanced, to call attention to the fact that it was not balanced?
A. I did call attention to it, both to the Treasurer himself and the Acting Treasurer.
Q. Do you know whether it has been done?
A. No, you mean people shown to be in arrear on the 31st December, 1892? They are continually paying and I have very little doubt in my own mind that Alves has kept the Treasury Rent Roll correct.
Q. You think that it is correct, but that he has not paid over all the amounts therein mentioned?
A. Yes, that is it.
Q. According to the book of 1891 how much ought to have been paid over? Has it been made up?
A. I don't think any summary has been put into it.
Q. You have made an examination?
A. Yes, here it is.
Q. Whose writing is it in?
A. Mr. Remedios.
Q. Is it made up since Alves went?
A. Yes. I see there is a summary of the totals.
Q. What I want you to give is the total amount received according to him. The Rent Roll shows that the total to be paid in 1891 was $191,198.64. How much of that has really reached the Treasury?
A. $180,249.25.
Q. But according to this book there was a balance due of $88,119.62. Have any steps been taken to ascertain whether this is really correct?
A. If you take the Rent Roll for 1892 you will find that the greater part of that is paid up.
Q. Therefore that column was correct?
A. Presumably. He could not have carried it on if it had not been because he had to deal with the public coming in to pay their taxes and he had to refer to this book every time and he was, in a sense, bound to keep it correct. If you look at the book you will see that there is very little difference between the arrears one year and another.
Mr. Bird. Who kept the record of the amounts paid into the Treasury, of this $189,000?
A. It was in a book kept by Alves. It was in the shroff's cash book also.
Q. Was it anybody's business to check it?
A. It was never balanced.
Q. Never?
A. Well, I know nothing about 1888 or 1889.
Q. Was 1890?
A. No, it was not balanced, nor was 1891.
Q. You have the book for 1890?
A. In the Treasury.
The Chairman. About what time was that?
A. I did so on several occasions, but I should not like to fix the date on which I said it, although I know that I did.
Q. Who was Acting Colonial Treasurer?
A. Mr. May, and I believe he called the attention of Alves to it, but Alves always said he was so busy that he could not do it, and I was weak enough to accept that as a reason, instead of reporting him.
The Chairman. Am I right in saying that the only means by which he could have taken this money was by issuing receipts which were not in these receipt books? Supposing he had used the receipts in these books and supposing the counterfoils were correct then he would have been detected at once?
A. If the counterfoils had been correct I should have detected it at once, if all the counterfoils were filled out and correct.
Q. As far as you have seen for 1891 and 1892 the counterfoils were correct with the small exceptions you have mentioned?
A. Yes, with those small exceptions.
Q. Then these being correct he must have used some other receipts?
A. Yes.
Q. When he wanted to make away with money?
Mr. Bird. We have had it explained that he tore them out at the end of the book?
A. Yes, but he must also have had some blank receipts of his own.
The Chairman. He could easily have them printed?
A. Yes.
Q. That being the case the only check would have been at the end of the year by balancing the Rent Roll book and comparing it with the actual receipts in the Treasury?
A. Yes.
Q. And therefore as long as the book was not balanced there could be no real audit?
A. That is so. As long as the book was not balanced the audit was not complete.
Mr. Thurburn. In the Office itself it is possible to carry out an actual check by having one of the Treasury officers checking these counterfoils with the book?
A. Except as I say if he issued these false receipts and chose to enter them in the Rent Roll. Nobody could check that either the Treasurer or Auditor.
Mr. Bird. If periodical balances were taken out it would be all right.
Mr. Thurburn. Is the system which you have for balancing one that would balance, if the taxes were paid in as say once in three months, without taking any long time? You told us they were paid quickly as you told us they were, you would not think there would be a large amount outstanding. Are the taxes due once a year?
A. Twice.
Q. Well if you balanced every six months you would be able to discover if any defalcations were going on?
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