Mr. Bird.—Whom did you take the Office over from?
A.—Mr. Lister died, and Mr. Wodehouse was in charge just before I went there.
Q.—You never suspected Alves?
A.—On the contrary, I thought he was the best Officer in the Treasury.
Q.—You never heard he was speculating heavily?
A.—I never heard anything before he absconded, but I have heard a great deal since.
Q.—You never knew that he was building a Terrace in Kowloon?
A.—I did not know that Victoria View was his until the other day. I heard that he had some building there.
Q.—What is the total amount of his defalcations?
A.—$59,000 as far as we can at present ascertain. It may be a little less on account of payments and things difficult to find out.
The Chairman.—Could you give us a statement of what years those defalcations extend over?
A.—1889, 1890, 1891, and 1892.
Q.—Could you not give us the several amounts?
A.—About $12,000 a year as far as we can make out.
Q.—He appears then to have taken the same amount every year?
A.—Yes, as far as we have ascertained. Sometimes it was $1,000 or $2,000 more or less.
Mr. Thurburn.—Had the cashier anything to do with the receipts?
A.—No, the receipt books were kept entirely in Alves' charge.
Mr. Bird.—Did these Crown Rent counterfoils pass through Mr. Carvalho's hands?
A.—No.
Q.—Would not the cashier notice that he had got only $10 instead of $100?
A.—No, at the end of the day the amount would be brought up and the total would be brought to the cash book.
Q.—Not entered in detail?
A.—No.
Mr. Thurburn.—What were the cashier's duties?
A.—I always regarded the general supervision of the staff as one of the most important.
The Chairman.—Had he anything to do with the cash?
A.—He had to do with anything that came with money inside. The shroffs really receive the money at the wickets, and money paid in by the public would be paid to the shroffs. If the payer was an Englishman he would probably pay it to the cashier.
Q.—Were the receipts never signed by the cashier?
A.—They were never supposed to be. They were supposed to be signed by the accountant, who was in charge of that particular branch.
Mr. Bird.—I myself have paid money and received receipts and they are all signed by Alves.
A.—Yes, that was so until lately. I sign them myself now. The shroff practically had to sign and put his chop on. In addition to that the accountant had to sign.
The Chairman.—Things were really left in the hands of the accountant?
A.—Yes, so far as signing receipts was concerned.
Q.—Did the shroff keep any book of the receipts that he signed? For instance, if people went direct to the shroff and paid him, say $50, the shroff would receipt it I suppose, and it would be signed by Alves?
A.—The shroff would hand in the receipt to Alves. For instance, if a man came with $25 Alves would be told by the shroff that $25 had been paid in.
Q.—Suppose the man went to pay without taking any document?
A.—Then the shroff would tell Alves.
Mr. Thurburn.—I suppose he would simply say "I want a receipt for Crown Rent so-and-so"?
A.—Yes.
The Chairman.—What book did Alves keep?
A.—A book like this (Alves' Day Book produced) for his daily calculations. You will see it gives the date of the month, the number of the receipt, and the amount for which it was.
Q.—That is the number of the counterfoil?
A.—Yes. The date was put in afterwards. He would look at the counterfoils and pass them into this book (The Treasury Rent Roll).
Mr. Thurburn.—Of course he made that correct—I mean in the case in which he received $100 and only gave credit for $10.
A.—Yes, the $100 would go into the Rent Roll because if he put only $10 it would be noticed that only $10 was paid whereas $100 ought to have been paid and I should have sent to the debtor and asked him why he did not pay. So Alves kept this book correct.
Mr. Bird.—You never saw this little book (pointing to Alves' rough book).
A.—No, I did not ask him for it.
The Chairman.—It was not a private book?
A.—No, it is one of the Treasury books. I could have got it if I had asked for it.
Q.—That is the book for the Crown Rent. Had Alves anything to do with the other receipts also?
A.—No, only Crown Rent.
Q.—Who looked after the taxes?
A.—Mr. Madar used to look after them.
Q.—As far as receipts went Alves only had the Crown Rent to look after?
A.—Yes.
Q.—What other books did he keep?
A.—He was book-keeper; he had charge of the journal and ledger, and he also had to do all the calculations in connection with the Crown Agents' account. It was a very complicated matter, splitting up all the expenditure among the different departments. That was really the part that took him longer than anything else, and making returns for Somerset House.
Q.—What is this big book for?
A.—That is for rates.
Q.—Alves had nothing to do with it?
A.—No.
(Ledger produced).
672