any item they way think proper. When the Bill goes into committee you will then also deal with the estimates which have been laid on the table at present and which are in your hands. I have only read the title of the Bill and the question is that it be read a second time.
Hon. W. KESWICK-In the event of this Bill being read a second time now without discussion can full discussion take place upon it on a future occasion, or must the discussion necessarily be before going into Committee?
His EXCELLENCY-I think, according to our rules, this is the time. Rule 29 says, "Upon the motion for the second reading of a Bill, its general merits and principles shall be discussed, and if such second reading be assented to, the title only of the Bill shall be read, and thereupon the Council shall go into committee on the clauses of such Bill or shall appoint a future day for that purpose." I think this is the time to go into discussion, and after discussion we will refer the Bill to committee.
Hon. W. KESWICK-If it would not delay public business, it would be very convenient to myself, and others I believe, if at this stage the Bill were adjourned for a few days in order that the general merits may be discussed and not simply the items as they may come before us seriatim. I am not aware there is anything to say, on account of not having had time to make myself acquainted with the figures, but I think it would be well if the discussion were adjourned until another meeting.
His EXCELLENCY-I am bound to say I would rather have proceeded, and for this simple reason. When the estimates were approved last year by the Secretary of State he pointed out to me that according to the Colonial regulations the estimates of a colony of this kind should be in the hands of the Secretary of State at a much earlier time than had been the practice.
Then, with the assistance of my hon. friend on my left (the Colonial Secretary) I sent round a circular to all heads of departments into which I imported the clause in the Colonial regulations on the subject of estimates and called upon them to send in their various estimates for the public service of 1881 by June. Well, that was done. Some gentlemen sent in their returns very quickly, others not quite so quickly. Early in June, I think it was, the circular went out, and my hon. friend had nearly the whole of these documents, with the exception of two departments, in June.
A question arose about the Supreme Court and some questions in connection with the Surveyor-General's department, and with the exception of these two, the estimates were actually prepared by the Acting Colonial Secretary in the month of June. Well, the Chief Justice was able very soon after that to put before me his estimates, and I believe I was able to approve of a suggestion he made.
The CHIEF JUSTICE-No; excuse me.
His EXCELLENCY-Well, as far as they were in accordance with the suggestions of the Secretary of State.
The CHIEF JUSTICE-But my proposal was entirely opposed to the suggestion of the Secretary of State-greatly in excess. I sent in an estimate which could not be approved.
His EXCELLENCY-I had to send to the Chief Justice certain dispatches from which he at once saw it was necessary to keep his estimates within the bounds they now stand in on this paper.
The CHIEF JUSTICE-Oh, don't call them mine.
His EXCELLENCY-And as regards the Surveyor-General's estimates, as the largest expenditure of the colony passes through his hands, it was not perhaps surprising he should be the last to send in his estimates. These estimates were considered at a meeting of the Executive Council, and I and my friends listened to all the Surveyor-General's suggestions. He did not propose, and no one was surprised at it, to cut down anything, but I may say this, every proposal made to myself and colleagues in Executive Council was approved of and we added a few thousand dollars to one vote and another and approved of every amendment.
That being the case the estimates were in a position to be submitted to you and here they are to-day. Of course if there was any particular vote my hon. friend (Mr. Keswick) could mention he has had them in his possession since Thursday last, and my own statement was made a considerable time ago. The general nature of the estimates are well understood. I should prefer we adhered now to our rules and took the discussion now on the second reading. And then hon. members will recollect after this discussion is closed we go into committee, and then the Governor leaves to the Finance Committee, consisting of every member of the Council but himself, to deal with the estimates; they discuss them, move any amendment they please except additions to votes, and that discussion may last as long as hon. members wish. Every facility is given by our rules and regulations for ample discussion.
Hon. P. RYRIe-The discussions in Finance Committee are not published, and I would move that these estimates be discussed by a committee of the full Council. We usually have these papers in our hands at least ten days before the second reading is proposed. We only received them on Thursday, I think, and on Saturday and Monday we were pushed with our home mails; the French mail arrived on Saturday and left for Shanghai yesterday afternoon, so there has been very little opportunity to pass a glance over the papers. I think the case might be met by going into committee of the full Council.
His EXCELLENCY-Well, I will not object to a Committee of the full Council, but they can go to the Finance Committee too, because the fuller the discussion the better, and, as you know, I have always invited discussion. They can be discussed in full Council, and afterwards in Finance Committee. With regard to the proceedings of the Finance Committee not being reported, it occurred to me it would be well if they were, but on referring the matter to the Secretary of State he expressed the opinion that it would be better not, but we can get over that by having the discussion in committee of the full Council. It was not my intention to have the Committee to-day. I intended to have the committee on a future day.
Hon. W. KESWICK-Would taking the second reading now advance the Bill?
His EXCELLENCY-Yes, it advances the Bill a stage, and then on the next day we will have nothing but Committee.
The ACTING COLONIAL TREASURER-We might have the Finance Committee in the meantime and then take it in Full Committee. The discussion will only be on points objected to.
Hon. P. RYRIe-That was what occurred to me.
His EXCELLENCY-I will be very glad to agree to that.
The CHIEF JUSTICE-There is a sort of opinion, I believe, in the Council that the Chief Justice ought not to attend on Finance Committee. I took my seat once at the suggestion of Mr. Gardiner Austin, but I would rather not attend. I am better out of figures always.
His EXCELLENCY-Well, I don't approve of that. I think the Chief Justice ought to attend. Well, we may take the second reading now, and go into Committee on another day.
Hon. W. KESWICK-But I presume after the second reading is passed a general discussion on the principle on which these estimates are based, and the revenue, would be out of place. It ought to take place now, or when the second reading comes on.
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