purchasing additional property, than making a temporary shift and building on a confined area something which would be wanting in all the re- quirements of a goal. If it is considered that the removal of the gaol to Stonsentiers' Island is a scheme that cannot recommend itself to the Council, I would say, as the hou. member whe lust spoke (the Acting Chief Justico) bus said, the removal of the Magistracy, the removal of the Superintendent's residence, and the remo. val of the Gaol Office would give room for solitary cells, and I think of the two or three plans put before the Council. that of itself would be best that could be adopted. The Magistracy need not be taken to the Su preme Court House, although the offices thera would be well adapted for it. But a new Ma- gistracy could be built at small expense on the piece of ground now belonging to the Government near the entrance to the police station. The subject of deportation one also that invites! remark. I think if it can be shown that 50 per cent. of our deportees absolutely remain away, then we accomplish one material and great gain in sending them away to their own country. Of course it must be very well understood that the generous principles of the British Government would not send a man away even to his own country from the place of his adoption unless it was shown that he came within the meaning of our Ordinance, that he would be dangerous to the peace and good order of the colony. Men are not deported for one offence, but only when it is found they become habitual thieves, and then I don't think there can be the slightesi claim on their part that they have been treated with great hardship or in any way contrary to British law.
His ExcELENCY-Perhaps, gentlemen, it would be convenient for us if we could resume this discussion on Thursday. We could take the estimates the following wenk, and we might go into this question if convenient on Thursday.
ion. W. KESWICK-With what object are we to come to a decision? If we decile there shall be a now gaol, is it that it shall appear immediately on the estimates ?
His EXCELLENCY-I should not like to put anything of this kind on the estimates without first putting it before Her Majesty's Government. All I have been asked to do is fo express my own opinion and the opinion of Mr. Price, I was not asked to lay the dispatch before the Council. As you are aware, everything connected with prison discipline rests with the Governor, who is re sponsible to the Imperial Government. I make no proposal, nor shall I next Thursday; but I hope to elicit an opinion. When I receive that, and not until then, shall I frame any recomme. dation of my own. Remembering the figure I mentioned to you, 574, as the number of pri- soners in guol in November, 1876, it is important to consider what changes have been made that might lead, you would suppose, to our having a larger number of prisoners in November, 1878. We have, of course, as you know, more distress in the neighbouring provinces of China; we have since then also had other causes, such as the long continuance of the cheap fares from Canton, and the really considerable increase of population. The increase of the Chinese population since November, 1876, has been very great, far greater in these two years than in any preceding two years. Therefore you might fairly say the number in gaol at the present time must be greater than in the time of Sir Arthur Kennedy. But also, you might say, the unmbor must be still greater because the Governor, soon after he came here, pointed out to the ma- gistrates that it was very desirable to send repeated old offenders to the Supreme Court in- stead of giving them two or three months' im- prisonment, where His Honour the Chief-Justice! Sir John Smale, or the Hon, Acting Chief-Jus- tiec could give a longer sentence. And I may tell you that Sir John Smale the first time be came to see me said, "Since the time of Sir Hercules Robinson, I never know what sentence I give a prisoner. Then a man received a son- tence and was never let out until he served two. thirds of that sentence, except, of course, under exceptional circumstances." But since Sir Her enles Robinson's time the sentences of the Sn. preme Court have been interfered with in this way, that, as my hon. friend (Mr. Hayllar) said, when the gaol gets crowded the Superintendent was in the habit of sonding up a list, saying "Here is a number of men who have served one third or one-half of their sentences; let them be deported," and that accordingly was done. That system, Sir John Smale pointed out, interfered with his sentences and it had the effect, as the
hon. member (Mr. Hayllar) points out, of accumu- ¡ lating in the neighbourhood of the colony mang persons who ought to be serving their sentence of imprisonment. Therefore, you might fairly say, as I have returned to Sir foronles Robinson's system, which was never reported to the Secretary of States as having been altered-I have returned to it, and no man is let out now before serving two-thirds of his sentence--therefore you might naturally say thero must be a larger number in the gaol than in 1876, Well, in spite of all these facts, the number of prisoners in geol at this moment is less than at the corresponding date of 1876. That supports the view of my hou. friend on the right (Mr. Ryrie) that the separate system will tend to diminish the ratio of the increase of crime as compared with that of the population, and I do not believe that, if we sacceed in establishing a proper gaol, though the population will increase with the prosperity of the Colony the number of criminals will in- crease in the same ratio. It is my duty every day to ascertain the number of prisoners in gas, and I have a return seat to me every morning I have received over 500 returns of the number of prisoners in gaol, how they are distributed, and what they are doing. These returns give me a cer." tain amount of anxiety and thought, and it is from a study of these returns, as I mentioned to you before, I have seen the necessity of introducing a far more severe scale of dietary. I don't say it is owing to the short commons I have given to the large muss of prisoners that pass through our gaol that the number of prisoners is less. It may be accidental. These things are very difficulty to trace, and it takes a long time to bring a scheme into operation. But whatever scheme you may be disposed to suggest you will of course bear in mind that my disposition is to carry out the scheme of Sir Harcules Robinson as to the remission of sentences, namely, not to let any man ont before he has served two- thirds of his term, to let every prisoner know he must serve his two-thirds, and that as regards the remission of the other third he can only earn it by good conduct. I think I am also justified in asking you to favourably consider the question of sending repeated old offenders to the Supreme Court. With respect to what has been men- tioned incidentally by most of my hon. friends who have spoken, that is deportation, I may tell you in a word or two briefly how that stands. I arrived here April and shortly after received a despatch from Lord Carnarvon. His despatch was dated in May, and in it he told me he was un. able to give his sanetion to an Ordinance passed. by Sir Arthur Kunedy entitled the Consolidation Branding and Deportation Ordinance. In the despatch in which he gave me instructions on the subject, he expressed the opinion that deporta- tion should be employed only when unavoid. able, that it should be used only when deal ing with persons secused or suspected of act things likely te imperil the security of the colony, and that it should be used with caution. Well, you will perhaps be interested to know how I have acted on that dispatch. You are aware that the magistrates recorumenil, occa- sionally prisoners for deportation. Furthermore the Superintendent of the Prison can make a recommendation to that effect, and such recoin- mendations always receive the attention of the Executive. With respect to the magistratos, in every single case in which a magistrate has re- commended a prisoner to me for deportation, and when the sentence was, according to the rul. ing of the Attorney-General, a legal sentence, and the Executiva Council thought the man should be deported he has been deported. There have been cases in which the sentences passed have not been legal sentences-the papers are referred to the Attorney-General, and the moment he says
This is not according to law," my plain duty,. as the bead of the Executive, is not to act on that sentence Again, soon after I come here, a quss. tion arose about the form of warrant or con- ditional pardon that had been issued by Sir Arthur Kennedy, and it was held by the Supreme Court that for certain reasons given in the judgment of the Chief Justice these warrants were sometimes illegal. The result is that a man who has beau deported and who has returned to the Colony, which is a common event, if he were to be brought up and tried for returning from deportation, the judgment of the Court would be that he should be discharged, inasmuch as the particular form of warrant I refer to has been held to be illegal. At that time the Chief Justice onlled on me and said he would be surry to have continual collisions on this subject, and therefore. he said, where &
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