little less than in the corresponding mouthes preceding my arrival.
6.
to fiction
was taken to
the mode in which I had carrień
I out the deportation Rrdinances;
was
any
Мит
remark made about
the musuber of prisoners in Gaol
this time as
1876.
compared with
I have the honor to be,
Sir, Your Most Obedient
"Stumble Servant
Helfmeng
THE DAILY PRESS, TUESDAY, NOVEMBER 12ra, 1878.
A meeting of the Legislative Council was hold
THE GAOL. yesterday afternoon. There were present :--
HIS EXCELLENCY THE GOVERNOR. Hon. F. SNOWDEN, Acting Chief Justice. Hon. C. MAY, Acting Colonial Secretary. Hon. G. PHILLIPPO, Attorney General. Hon. P. RYRIE. Hon, W. KESWICK, Hou. H. LowCOCK,
His EXCELLENCY-Now, g last meeting of Council I refj tion of the Chief Justice abod the prison rules, and I then to my duty to lay before you would put you in possession of of the Secretary of State. Wel and in writing to the Secretar him that this dispatch which he had sent-he did not instruct me to lay it bofore the Legislative Council, but I said" though you have not instructed me to lay the dispatcb before the Legislative Coun- cil I have ventured to do so, so I am at all times most anxions to ascertain, by the full expression of opinion in public Council, the views of those who represent so important á section of the com- munity as the gentlemen I refer to." I may say: that in the dispatch I wrote to Sir Michael Hicks-Beach reporting the fact that I had laid his dispatch before the Council, I said that. my hon. friend on the right (Mr. Keswick) to: whom I mentioned in August its general scope and who had a conversation on the subject with Mr. Price and my hon. friend on the left (Mr. Loweock), who also bad a conversation with Mr. Price about it, both entertained doubts as to whether it was judicious to spend much money on gaol extension in this Colony. My friend on the right (Mr. Keswick) did not think it was right to spend much money in that way, and he sug- gested an alternative scheme which if carried out he thought might do away with the necessity. However that may be, I think it only respectful to my hon. friends that they should have laid before them the first dispatch of Lord Carnarvon and the dispatch of Sir Michael Hicks-Bench. They have been in the hands of hou, members since the 15th October and I have no doubt my hon. friends have carefully considered them, and I should be glad to elicit a full and frank expression of opinion on the sub- joct. I am sorry my hon. friend Mr. Price is not here to-day because be would have given us some important information, but with- ont myself entering into the matter or an. ticipating what you may say I think it but right to inform you what the basis of our consideration ought to be. In the first place Her Majesty's Government say we must have a gaol on the separate system. Then comiOS the question how many prisoners ought we to accommodate in the gaol here. Now taking this time in the last year of Sir Arthur Kennedy's administration, that is. November, 1876, as a period which we may fairly look to as giving us a fair average of the umber we ought to provide for in the gaol, I find a memoran- dum of Mr. Tomlin in which he says, in November, 1876, that owing to
the very large number of prisoners confined in the gaol, 574, it became necessary to increase the number of prisouers in each call, putting nine in each of the large cells and seven in the small ones. Mr. Tomlin also favoured me in May, 1877, with a return of the whole cubic space of the cells in which these prisoners were confined, and the re- : sult is that in the large cells, whore usually there were seven prisoners, but where in 1876 there had been nine, there were 184 cubic feet for each man. In the other cells it amounted to 221 feet for each man. Inow speak of Chinese prisoners only. The European prisoners have larger cells, that is, there is a touch smaller number in the cell; indeed, as a genoral rule, each prisouer has a cell to himself. Now, the question is, if we are to have anything like that number, 574 prisoners, whether it is right to crowd them so much into the cells that we should have only 221 or 184 cubic feet for each man. Her Majesty's Government have over and over again said yon must have at last a thousand cubic feet of breathing space for each man, and I find in a very valuable report supplied by Deputy Inspector-General Wells and Dr. O'Brien, though the precise object of their in- quiry was of a different character, they refer in- eidontally and for reasons which you will under. stand, to the space in each cell and they express the opinion that the average space in the cells of our prison is not sufficiently large. Taking the Europeans and Chiuese throughout the whole of the gaol in regard to their space they find the allowance is from 482 to 775 cubic feet. This is the general average, which includes Europeans. The figures they gave, 182 and 775, were the
Hon. T. C. HAYLLAR, QO.
Dr. Ayres. He made a subse. £ those were the average of the ling the Europeans, but taking coarse it is much smaller. The bo have most recently reported press a decided opinion we a thousand to twelve hundred jan. Lord Carnarvon, writing br I arrived, said I consider the separate system to be the only true basis of prison disciplins, and among Chinese prisoners there are very special reasons for its adoption. It is mentioned in the report that few of the warders know Chinese, and the terrible outbreak in the Singapore prison is a war- aing of the danger of affording Chinese an opportunity to combine. I have to request that you will at ones call on the Surveyor- General to draw out plans for consideration showing the alterations that would be requisite and the surrounding ground and buildings." Well, you are aware, gentlemen, I did that. 1 made an effort also to get rid of our old Well. offenders by a transportion scheme.
it did not succeed. Her Majesty's Govern ment do not see the way clear to that at present, and no hope is held out that it will be done ultimately. Then comes the important dispatch of Sir Michael Hicks-Beach of the 5th Juue, 1878. He puts the whole case very briefly in the last two paragraphs. He says-
In many respects I am opinion that the erection of a new prison on sew it will be found to be the best solution of the question; but the expense which it would involve would doubtless he very great, and it will be for you to inquire carefully into the financial conditions of the various schemes which I have ang gested. The main elements for consideration appear to be roughly, on the one hand, the cost of acquiring additional and in the vicinity of the present site and of couverting the present buildings and erecting thoss which will be required in addition; and on the other han, the cost of a new site and the cost of a new pri son; against which should be get the amount that would be derived from the saic of the present site and buildings. I need scarcely say that, in the event of its being decided to oreet a wholly new gaol, it would be undesirable to spend money or enlarging or con- verting the present building;
"In the foregoing remarks it has been my object to set before you what I conceive are the chief ele- ments of the question for consideration, and before I arrive at a final decision on a matter in which the assistance of specific local knowledge is so material, I shall be happy to receive from yon a report upay the comparative cost of the several proposals, and apon the sites which seem to you suitable for a new gaol, together with such further suggestions as you may desire to offer after consulting Mr. Price." He there instructs mo to consult with Mr. Price before making my final recommendation. Well, in addition to consulting Mr. Price, I am very anxious to consult with you and hear your views on the subject. The financial ques tion is of very great importance. I men. tioned to my hon. friend on the right (Mr. Koswick) in August last that the cost of the ground from the present gaol up to Caine. rond-I think it was something like $45,000 I said we would have to pay for that alternative scheme as regards the land, but I have reason to believe we might have to pay a considerably larger sun. On the other hand, if it is possible for the Government to adopt a site for which we should have to pay no money and sell a portion of our present gaol site, I think it not at al! unlikely we might be able to build a gaol for considerably less than if we were to carry ont the plan of advancing up to Caine-road. So I would ask you to consider this question. If we 10 up to Caine-road and the population of the Colony continues to increase, if we have a popu- lation of say 300,000 or 400,000, what becomes You will have of the gaol in Caine-road? built a gaol to accommodate a certain number, but you cannot go on extending it. On the other hand, you might get a site where the Gaul could be extende as required. Those, I think, gentlemen, are considerations which it is my duty to put before you, and I shall be very glad now to hear the members of the Council, either official or non-official, express their views on this subject.
lion. W. KESWICK-Your Excellency, I was not aware that this subject was to be brought forward to-day, and I-am not prepared at once to T'he state all the views I entertain upon it. | objections which I have previously expressed are not in any way lessened by any statement
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