Mc. RYRIE-No.
The CHIEF JUSTICE-If I recollect right, After some further discussion on the verbal construction the words "to be readily marketable" were substituted for "for the advantageous management of the affairs of the company," and the other alterations suggested by the Attorney General were agreed to.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL moved that the preamble, as amended stand part of the Bill.
The COLONIAL SECRETARY seconded. Mr. KESWICK-I think, your Excellency, we have not proved in evidence that the allegations in this preamble are facts. A good deal which has been elicited from the witnesses goes to prove the contrary. I will not take up the time of the Council by entering at large upon the whole question. Probably we have all made up our minds, but I will bring it to an issue by proposing an amendment that the preamble has not been proved.
Mr. RYRIO-I will second that. I agree with what my friend on the right has said, that they have not proved the preamble. The company has been conducted for over ten years now, and has been an eminently successful company as was shown by the fact that before the failure of their agents the shares were worth $3,000 with only $1,000 paid up. The fact of their being now only $1,700 has nothing to do with any loss as insurance agents, but is simply on account of the loss they sustained by the failure of their agents. Therefore, I think the shares as they were before were satisfactory. They admit their company has been a great success and say they wish to make it a greater success. Before the Bill is passed I have other objections to make, but on the preamble I only object that it has not, on their own showing, been proved.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL-I wish to say one word on this amendment. We perfectly well understand that it is not upon the words of the preamble that the objection is based, but upon the powers proposed to be conferred. I take it that it is not upon a matter of words that we vote but upon the measure. I have heard no reasons to show why a company in this fix should not receive the concession asked for. I should have preferred that the power had been given by a general Ordinance, but the Council refused that.
The CHIEF JUSTICE also spoke against the amendment, and explained that he also would have preferred that the powers sought for should have been conferred by a general Ordinance, but said the Attorney-General and he differed in opinion as to what that Ordinance should be.
The amendment was then put and lost, three voting for it and five against, viz., Ayes:-Mr. Keswick, Mr. Lowcock, and Mr. Ryrie; Noes: The Attorney-General, the Colonial Secretary, the Chief Justice, the Colonial Treasurer, and the Governor.
Mr. KESWICK-The Council, I presume, then, consider that the statements made have been proved, but we have now to consider a very much more important question, and that is, whether the policy indicated by the preamble is one which should receive the support of this Council. It appears to me it would be a very grave error to pass a measure of this kind. If this Company has special legislation in its favour and by such acquires the right to increase its shares and diminish their value, it would be quite competent for any other company to come forward and claim it as a precedent, and if they make no better proof of their right and the facts alleged than have the Company now petitioning I think we would be giving to the Companies of this Colony facilities for doing a great deal of injury. The policy this preamble indicates a desire to pass in this Legislature I object to entirely. I propose that the preamble be not passed.
The COLONIAL SECRETARY-If a Bill were brought in by any other Company I would unquestionably support it. The original Bill was brought in by me to give to all Companies the power of redoing their shares within fixed limits.
Mr. KESWICK-For that I voted,
The COLONIAL SECRETARY-I am aware of that. Well, now, we are simply taking it piecemeal, and that is why I should support this and any other similar application.
Mr. Lowcock-I beg to second the motion of the hon. member on the other side, and wish at the same time to state that I do so, not from any wish to prevent the Company obtaining the relief they seek, but simply because I do not consider that the preamble has been proved, and that private legislation is most undesirable in this Colony altogether. The means this Company have adopted to attain their end are quite unnecessary, and would cause other Companies to take similar action which would be very undesirable.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL-I am glad to hear my hon. friend opposite has no objection to the relief the Company wish to obtain, and I apprehend they would not have come to us if they could have obtained it in any other way short of the complicated, expensive, and rather disastrous course of winding up the Company and starting afresh. I do think when a company is in such a position as this we ought not to drive them into taking such a strong step as we would then do. If any other Company came in the same way and made out a good case I should be glad to support it, but I should be very loath to reduce the shares of a company which started at the point to which we are, I hope, about to reduce these shares. There is no other company which has shares of the same very large amount as the China Traders' Insurance Company.
Mr. Keswick's amendment that the preamble be not passed was then put, when there voted for it-Mr. Keswick, Mr. Ryrie, and Mr. Lowcock; against-the Governor, the Chief Justice, the Colonial Secretary, the Attorney-General, the Acting Colonial Treasurer.
The clauses having passed through Committee with verbal alterations,
The GOVERNOR proposed that the Bill do pass.
Mr. RYRIE-Before it passes I would renew my objections to it as a piece of legislation quite novel in this Colony. I don't think that any instance can be brought forward where legislation of this kind has ever been attempted before. The advantage of the privileges which the Company wishes to get are such as is not enjoyed by other companies of a like nature. I consider, as I have already said, that this Company could as easily have followed the course adopted by similar companies in this Colony, and not have come to this Council in the way it has. Such legislation has a vicious tendency. I don't wish to say anything of the present directors of the Company, but what use may others make of this Bill to induce shareholders to join them? They might say it is Company under the special protection of the Government-a special Bill has been brought in to bolster it up, and if you have another misfortune you will get another Bill. I think it quite possible such may be done. When we see other companies without special legislation doing a business like this Company and without coming here, I don't see why the time of this Council should be taken up in legislating as it has been. There are many more important subjects, and the hours which have been taken up by this Bill might have been much better occupied. What has the Legislature to do with this Company? It is not as though it were the only one in the Colony; there are numerous others. It has no grievance. If any one comes here they must come with a grievance. It is quite novel to me to hear that because a Company has been successful it must come to the Legislature to make it still more successful. I never heard of such a thing. I object to this Bill as being a vicious form of legislation. It is my intention to lodge a protest against it, and in that I shall be joined I think by the others who have voted with me.
3
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL-The other Companies are on a different footing-the Canton and Union. The constitution of the Union I am not acquainted with, but they are private partnerships which have control over their own affairs and adjust them as they please.
Mr. RYRIE-Is it not the same with this Company?
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL-No, the existence of this Company is a creature of law, and is tied down in such a way by the memorandum of association that they cannot do what other companies do which are not incorporated under the Companies' Ordinance.
Mr. RYRIE-I deny that,
Mr. Lowcock-Both are incorporated. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL-I was not aware of that. Probably they reserve to themselves the power of winding up.
Mr. RYRIE-The China Traders' liability is limited. The other Companies are unlimited, and are bound to the last penny of their money for any loss. We are reducing the liability of the China Traders' to $1,100, which is far too little. Why should we give legal sanction for this? If the Company like to do it themselves, let them do it.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL-They cannot without the assistance of this Council,
Mr. Lowcock-Like the Canton they might, without stopping their business, have wound themselves up and reconstituted themselves
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