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R. M. Martin, Esq. mittee to state the injurious effects of opium, as I believe it does not come particularly within the province of the Committee. If they require it I will do so, but I am unwilling to state anything in opposition to the proceedings of gentlemen for whom I entertain respect. I think that the extensive use of opium in China diminishes the possibility of selling our manufactures. Mr. Norton, in his evidence before this Committee, has put the case very clearly, by showing the balance of trade, which is against China, and paid for in precious metals. I inquired of the Toutai at Shanghai what would be the best means of increasing our commerce with China, and his first answer to me, in the presence of Captain Balfour, Her Majesty's consul, was, "Cease sending us so much opium, and we shall be enabled to take your manufactures." I think there cannot be a doubt that if we could supply the Chinese with three to four millions of manufactures instead of opium, they would have better means of purchasing than if they expended the money in buying opium.
3924. Would you propose, on the part of this country, an absolute prohibition of the importation of opium into that country by any of our subjects?- I would, on the same ground that the slave trade is prohibited. I think we are bound by the relations in which we stand to China, not to persevere in carrying on that trade at Hong Kong, for the abolition of which the government of China are particularly anxious.
3925. Would not your reasoning apply to trading in spirits, or any other deleterious article?-Spirits are not deleterious; spirits contain the element of life; opium does not contain those elements. Every nation that has yet made any advance in civilization, uses spirits.
3926. Ought not the Government of this country therefore to interdict the introduction of opium into this country?-It is not used to an excess.
3927. But it is used?-Only I believe as a medicine; at least, its use otherwise is a very rare occurrence.
3928. Are you not aware that it is used in this country for other purposes besides medicine?-I have examined the Custom-house returns, and I have seen no greater increase than the augmentation of the population would warrant.
3929. In fact you would interdict the introduction of opium entirely into China by our subjects?—I think we are bound to do so by our treaty with China. I would disconnect Her Majesty's Government with it.
3930. Mr. Harcourt.] Do you suppose that in the opinion of medical men, the use of spirits is not deleterious to health?-In moderation it is beneficial to health, and the best proof of that is, that every nation that has advanced in civilization uses fermented liquors, but every nation that used opium has gone to decay; witness Persia, Turkey, and China.
3931. Do not you imagine that opium may be used medically as well as spirits?-The medical use is altogether a different thing; the impossibility of maintaining moderation in the use of opium is admitted.
3932. Mr. Ewart.] If the use of opium were restricted to medical purposes, how are you to prevent its coming in under that name to a great extent?- In this country it would not be necessary to restrict it, because the moral habits of the people are adverse to such a deleterious drug; in China its prohibition has been found necessary as a moral question, and partly as a financial. There is no doubt of the sincerity of the Chinese government in their efforts to put down opium, for when Governor Davis drew up a paper with great ability urging the legalized introduction of opium into China, that paper, on being submitted to the Emperor, had this answer appended to it: "It is true I cannot prevent the introduction of the flowing poison; gain-seeking and corrupt men will for profit and sensuality defeat my wishes, but nothing will induce me to derive a revenue from the vice and misery of my people."
3933. Do you think it would be possible to prevent the introduction of opium into China?-I do, by the concurrence of the governments of England, America and France.
3934. And of other countries?-Those three countries would do it efficiently, I think.
3935. Would not Holland be important?-Holland has very little trade; if those three countries made it a prohibition they would entirely put it down. With regard to the question as to the use of opium, I felt bound, as a member of the council, to dissent from its introduction into Hong Kong, and I should be glad to put on record my dissent; it states some of the grounds on which I dissent.
3936. Sir G. Staunton.] Did you propose that the opium trade should be left entirely free?--I objected to the Queen's Government being in any way identified with the opium trade in Hong Kong; merchants in their dealings therein would act according to their private consciences.
3937. Mr. Ewart.] Then you did not propose to interdict the trade on the part of the merchants?-Not at all. I object on the ground that the Queen of this country, as a Christian Sovereign, ought not to sanction the opium trade.
3938. Do you extend that to a company like the East India Company, who cultivate the article as a monopoly?-Quite so.
3939. Sir G. Staunton.] Would not the effect of that be rather to give greater facility to the opium trade?-Granting even that it does, it disconnects the Government of a Christian country with what I consider to be a vice. I do not think that any government professing Christianity should be connected with a vicious means of indulgence.
3940. You do not contemplate any positive prohibition at Hong Kong?- Had I the power, I would. I was not called upon to propose such.
3941. Mr. Ewart.] You merely spoke as a Government officer?-As a member of Her Majesty's Council. I put in a dissent which was written a few hours before carrying it into the council; I will deliver in a copy of it.~-~ (The same was delivered in. Vide Appendix.)
3942. In what respect do you think the opium trade injurious to us, in our relations with China?-Politically, with reference to our position with the government of China. Had France, or America, or Russia, granted us an island on their coast, as a commercial station, and had they prohibited the use of opium, believing it to be injurious, we dare not in that case have made it a smoking shop for the empire; and I would not act to the Chinese government in a different manner than I would act to a government in Europe. Then, socially speaking, I believe it is the duty of this Government to uphold moral principles, and to disseminate religious truth, and she cannot do that with one hand, while on the other she is introducing into China an amount of opium which furnishes 17 grains a day to each of three millions of people, and which, in the language of Mr. Lay, Her Majesty's late consul at Amoy, is 'hamstringing the nation;" that was the expression of Mr. Lay. I think it is desolating China, corrupting its government, and bringing the fabric of that extraordinary empire to a state of more rapid dissolution. Commercially speaking, it is injurious to us, because it prevents the extension of our manufactures in China. Four or five mercantile houses are engaged in that traffic, and derive a large amount of income from it; but the trade in England is materially cramped, by the extension of opium consumption in China, to the extent of at least four millions sterling.
3943. Viscount Jocelyn.] Do you believe that our Government refusing to have anything to do with the opium trade, would tend to put a stop to it?— I do not think it would immediately.
3944. Would it put a check to the trade?-It might have some effect upon the consciences or moral feelings of men if there were general opprobrium thrown on it by the Government; though, of course, a few individuals for gain, might always afford means of obtaining it.
3945. Do not you think that it would lead to an unhappy state of affairs if there were a perpetual war going on between the people bringing opium to the shores and the Chinese government?-It was not so when Commissioner Lin took the steps that he did; there was not a possibility of selling a chest of opium along the coast. The compradors that went ashore at different ports were seized, and it was known that the opium that was taken possession of at Canton could not be sold, and that that was a great benefit to the English traders in opium.
3946. Do you believe that at that period there was no opium sold along the coast of China?-I understood from the persons engaged in the traffic, that there was a complete cessation of it; they could not sell the opium.
3947. Mr. Ewart.] But you cannot speak from your own personal knowledge?-I speak from the evidence of captains of ships, and those engaged in opium vessels.
3948. But you cannot have seen all the captains of ships who traded along the coast?-I think I consulted seven, if not eight.
3949. Viscount Jocelyn.] Would not you allow that if such a state of things
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