October 25, 1909.]
one
cases,
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proposed to repeal section 9 of the original Ordinance. No explanation was given in the objects and reasons of the Bill, but it has now been put before Conncil and removed a certain amount of misunderstanding. I may say that I have been approached by some people engaged in the trade of the Colony, and what they feared was that the total abolition of the import duty would prove ruinous to their trade. It would enable importers, say, man acting for three or four, or for messes to import liquor cheaper than the merchant. This question has received the consideration of those likely to be effected, and it seems to me that some such a scheme as this might be adopted: That a man who imports a limited amount of liquor, say, up to half a dozen should be allowed to import free. Over that amount five or ten per cent. could be considered a reasonable amount additional on his import duty until the sum of $100 was reached. For $100 a fee is provided in the original Ordin-
There is only one other point to which | I would like to refer; that is, there is a typed addition to the Bill which I have only seen for the first time since I came into this room. It provides for a refund being made to the military and naval authorities in respect of liquors imported and consumed in naval and military messes and canteens.. I would sug-ed gest that it would be more equitable and would save an enormous amount of trouble to the Government and those concerned if all military and naval canteens were allowed to import their liquor duty free out of bond. I am right in saying that no liquor in such circumstances could be imported into the Colony and used except under the supervision of some responsible commissioned officer. appears to me both in the interests of the Colony and the canteens themselves that that would be the simplest and most equitable method of working.
ance,
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I am
It
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CHINA OVERLAND TRADE REPORT,
367
the
HIS EXCELLENCY-The Government has had a number of letters from people in the trade. to which they have given careful consideration.
On clause 3,
Hon. Mr. GRESSON appealed to the common- sense of the Council not to pass this clause as it was unnecessary and cumbersome machinery.
Hon. Mr. STEWART-I was about to suggest a reason which occurred to me. I think a rebate is a desirable thing for the reason that it is a great encouragement to saving. If a man gets a lump sum at the end of six months for difference in price of liquor for which he would have paid if he had had to pay duty ho would think twice of spending that. That is an encouragement to thrift, I think, and one of
me to throw in my vote to make this allowance, the reasons which weighed with me in deciding
the Colonies. That the sum total of the troops employed throughout the Colonies of the Empireally inserted to meet the question of commission HIS EXCELLENCY-This clause was origin-
I have served many years in India myself Attorney-General proposes to meet that by an is a mere fraction to those employed in India. agents, but as I have explained the learned and am open to correction, but I am totally amendment of the Liquor Licencing Ordinance. unaware of any rebate given to troops there. Therefore, I think the concession
Hon. Mr. HEWETT That covers made in this Colony is a
being objection generous and a proper one. But I maintain that it should lio at the discretion of this Council from year to year to decide to what extent the rebate should be allowed, and personally I am strongly of opinion that a system of rebate allowances is preferable to the duty free system. (Applause.) Another point is that small publicans very great, ly resent the freedom from duty of canteens- and under sub-section 4 you will see that should not be given to a canteen itself in a stipulation is put in that an allowance order to reduce the cost of liquor, but should be made a personal allowance to the individual. The object is that the canteen may continue to sell at the same rate as the publican, and there- fore it would not be an attraction to others to go to a canteen in preference to a public-house. Hon. Mr. STEWART-I would like to say that the particular scheme of rebate propounded that it was only on the distinct understanding by Colonel Darling was to be the method employ-
that I for one voted for a remission of duty. the Government is under some misapprehen- Hon. Mr. GRESSOS-I think it possible that sion as to what Colonel Darling said as to this rebate. I have been referred to South
told that he Africa, and that the method adopted in South Africa did not only apply to liquor but to everything consumed by army people. Here, where there is only a duty on liquor to contend with. I see no reason for entering into such a cumbersome way of giving
done with it a rebate to the garrison. Let us give it and be If the information passed on to me is correct it would be ridiculous to institute this cumbrous system.
HIS EXCELLENCY THE OFFICER COMMAND- said. Colonel Darling was under some mis- ING-I quite agree with what the last speaker
apprehension about the duties. In South Africa a duty was paid on all articles consumed, as was the case in the West Indies. In these two places a lump sum was given as rebate. The only Colony on exactly the same footing as this is Singapore, where there is duty on liquor only, and there a rebate is given in the form of allow ing the troops to import their liquor free.
Hon. Mr. HEWETT-Do they get full rebate? HE. THE OFFICER COMMANDING Yes. Hon. Mr. STEWART-May I remark that a very good reason—
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HIS EXCELLENCY-The hon. member is not in order in speaking. We had better continue the debate on this clause in Committee.
Council then went into Committee to con ider the ill clause by clause..
On clause 2.
Hon. Mr. HEWETT said a man might possibly import liquor for himself and his friends or for two or three big messes and might save his $100. Consequently he (the speaker) had been asked to put forward this view by some of the people engaged in the trade.
HIS EXCELLENCY-With regard to the remarks made by the hon. member relative to section 9 of the principal Ordinance, I may say that he will have a full opportunity of discussing that in Committee. It appears to me to be an unprecedented thing, so far aware, that if duty is put upon liquor of any sort, and a private person wishes to import that liquor, we should say that he was compelled to take out a licence. I cannot perceive the equity of that, and it does not affect the main question. The point is, we have imposed a duty on liquor; is it an equitable thing, in addition to that, to impose a "licence fee? In my own opinion it is, but shall have an opportunity of discussing that in Committee. As regards the new clause it is suggested to bring forward in Com- mittee regarding import allowances. I may say that the main object of adopting this method which was suggested by the Acting Officer Commanding the Troops was because we were told by him that it was done in several other Colonies. The main reason is in order to check drinking by persons other than soldiers and sailors in canteens and messes. (Hear, hear.) We were told by Colonel Darling that spirits were not sold in canteens, and if my recollection serves me aright he told us it was not a common custom to take friends into a canteen, but what it was when liquor was exactly the same price as in the public house is a different matter to what it is now when it will be less in canteens. Any soldier under this system will be able to get his drink much cheaper in the canteen than in the public-house, and similarly wines and spirits can be obtained cheaper in the officers' messes. It seems to me that the simplest way of checking any difficulties of that sort is to make an import allowance and to fix that year by year by resolution of this Council. It appears to me that the matter is one of great importance and as it effects so large a sum of money it should be included in the Ordinance and not be decided by the Governor-in-Council, and that any alteration from year to year should be made by regulation. That is why this amendment is brought forward instead of being decided by regulations made by the Governor-in-Council. With regard to the general question of exemption of troops I stated myself when the question was raised in this Council that I was in favour of some consider. able concession, Colonel Darling told us that a concession was universally made throughout all France direct.
HIS EXCELLENCY-The question as to whe-
of fact. ther liquor is for sale or not for sale is a question
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Hon Mr. HEWETT - Supposing for the sake of argument I like to import for my own use would I come under the penalty clause ? or for the use of two or three of my friends,
HIS EXCELLENCY-Not if you sold at cost price, but if you sold at any profit you would be selling liquor without a licence.
Hon. Mr. OSBORNE The law is not for driving business into the hands of the wine merchant. If haf a dozen people like to combine and import it is not different to a man importing himself. I think the law does not want to operate to the detriment of traders.
HIS EXCELLENCY-The law does not interfere in either direction. It imposes certain duties on liquor and on those who sell liquor.
Hon. Mr. HEWETT-I do not press the point. I merely thought it desirable in view of the representations made to me to place the matter before the Council. As the consensus of opinion is against it let it go.
The COLONIAL SECRETARY-People in England can import their own wine from
Hon. Mr. HEWETT-I take it that whatever
cording to the allowance of individuals. But it the import allowance is it ought to be made ac- does not seem to me if you give a cash rebate that it should encourage outsiders to go and get this is concerned that we can certainly trust cheap drinks in canteens. I think as far as
the naval and military officers to keep a close supervision over canteens to see that What the this privilege is not being abused.
hon. member said is perfectly cor- Colonel Darling told me, but not in Council, that this import allowance was made use of to cover very excessive duties not only on liquor, but everything else imported into the country. I think it would be better to allow the naval and military people to get liquor out of bond less the remission you propose to allow them. As far as I can make out the only objec- tion for not giving a cash rebate is the fear of a certain number of people getting drink in
rect.
canteons.
HIS EXCELLENCY THE OFFICER COMMAND- ING-Outsiders cannot buy drink in canteens.
Hon. Mr. GRESSON.-I understand that in canteens practically nothing but beer is drunk. Even supposing a dozen casks or so are sold what will be the duty? Nothing. If people would only exercise common-sense they would see the Government is proposing to bring in a thing which would be run at a loss.
Hon. Mr. HEWETT-It must add to the cost of the service.
HIS EXCELLENCY-Not in the least. That entirely devolves upon the military authorities. Once a year the General Officer Commanding and myself will make out on a scale a certain rebate for the coming year and that will be put before the Council in the way of a resolution. The object as I have already explained that I had in view is to prevent what I thought would be a constant source of friction, because those who pay licence fees would complain that the canteens would undersell them.
The vote was then taken on the general principle as to whether the rebate should be in the form of an import allowance or a reduction of duty. Nine members supported the principle of import allowance, three voted for reduction of duty, and one for duty free.
An amendment was then put to delete çer- tain words from sub-section and was lost by seven votes to six
On clause 5,
Hon. Dr. Ho KAI-We have just considered the question of an import allowance to the naval and military authorities and I think we should also allow the liquors imported for Government House to be free, especially as a great quantity is used for entertainment purposes and to keep up the hospitality of Government House. The wording is from the Singapore Ordinance and this clause is amended to fit.
HIS EXCELLENCY asked official members not to vote on this propasal,
Hon. Dr. Ho KAI said the amendment was unanimously agreed to by his unofficial colleagues.
Council then resumed.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL moved the suspen- sion of the Standing Orders and the third reading of the Bill, remarking that the matter was one of urgency,