be
THE HONGKONG WEEKLY PRESS AND
Was
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[July 25: 1008:
and the prospect of receiving $30,000 per which prevails among the vast majority offer the fund to Government and the annum and paying $5,000 against it for as the contributors as to the benefits accruing to matter has been under consideration more long as the gods will continue the luck of them under the old pension fund and under or less since. There has been no compulsion the Fund-this advantage we could all under- the new pension fund. Now, Bit, last year the about it. The Secretary of State, it is true, stand. Ob, but, it is said, the Government is civil servants got it into their heads that life has said that he wishes this Ordinance passed: not going to make anything out of this transfer, insurance companies would give them better After having given the fullest explanations in the long run; the benefits are all in favour terms than they would get under the Widows' possible he must have been astonished, sad the of the contributors. This brings into view and Orphans' Fund. They imagined that the officials of the Colonial Office and the actuarial another aspect of the question that calls for terms would be better in this way-that the advisers must have been astonished last year delay. If, the present proposals are highly pensions to their widows would be almost equal when they heard that the Hongkong civil servant advantageous to the contributors in the and that bachelors would have the satisfaction would not touch his scheme with the and of a long run, they must be equally disadvant- of knowing that their relatives would benefit by pole. They wrote in reply to my despatch that ageons to the Hongkong taxpayer. I am their insurance policies. Certain members of it was quite evident the contributors had not sure no taxpayer would be likely to grudge the service took a typical case, calculated it on considered the previous correspondence and did whatever benefits are likely to accrue under this the life insurance tables of one of the companies not really understand the subject. There Bill to the wives of departed officials, but as in the Colony, and set it side by side with the be- they hit the nail on the head: the subject was so much has been made of the liability of the nefits accruing under the Widows' and Orphans' not understood, The hon. member who re- fund, so much said as to the prospects of it Fund, and the Service to a man exclaimed presents the Chamber of Commerce has himself becoming insolvent unless taken over, that at "The Government, as usual. is doing us fallen into one of those errors which are difficult least the Hongkong Publio may be pardoned for in the eye; we can get better terms from to avoid. He insinuates that it is good business desiring to know a litt'e more definitively than some commercial house in Queen's Road." Bat for the Government in taking over this fand they do at present the nature of the liability to it was discovered that in these figures which to save $30,000 in interest while they are only which this Ordinance commits them. There had been ciroulated a little error of between 40 paying a bonus of $5,000. fore it seems to me that for more than ope and 50 per cent had been made in calculating The COLONIAL SHOERTARY-But, Sir, the reason it is desirable for the Government to have the pensions that would accrue in the insurance bonuses that the Government are guaranteeing an up-to-date valuation made and thereafter to company. When that little fact became known to pay are calculated on the basis of 8 per cent. bring their transference proposal to this Council. the service naturally threw the suggestion of compound interest, and it does not make the This, it seems to me, would have been the wisest compulsory life insurance overboard. A life slightest difference whether that compound course to pursue, this is what I think ought to insurance company here was asked whether it interest is paid as it is in the special fand or have been done, and this I hope the Colonial would take over the Widows and Orphans' whether it is guaranteed in the pension. It is Government will even now, at the eleventh Pension Fund and guarantee the pensions merely a matter of book accounts. What the hour, agree to press for. I cannot see any im. thereunder, but their reply was very vague, Government does save by taking over the fund mediate necessity for this Bill; I do not approve to the effect that they wished to consult is the payment of interest on any balance that of the method of its propulsion. I am not their directors at home. We have heard there may be of assets over liabilities. In 1900 satisfied that justice is being done to the rights nothing more about it, and am not that balance was $10,000. The hon, member of an unrepresented minority. On principle I surprised, because owing to the conditions opposite also showed a want of appreciation of object to a measure of this nature being forced of the fund, owing to the fact that the widows the liabilities that fall од a fund of this through this Council, and I beg your Excellency and orphans have benefitted by the contribu- nature when he spoke of the bonus of $5000 not to proceed with the Second Reading and tious of bachelors, which is of the essence of the as a mere paltry sum out of that large balance to appeal to the Secretary of State to post fund, the pensions socruing under this fund of three lacs which the Government would take pone the operation of his predecessor's flat, are very much more favourable The conver- over. There is nothing like taking a concrete
Hon. Mr. POLLOCK-I support the pro-
sion in the service I said just now,
case. The other day there was a deplorable position just moved by the hon. member opposite. remarkable. I referred to the ignorance which shipwreck in these waters when the steamer I think, Sir, that in this matter the wishes of had existed as to the benefits goorning under Powan" went down. Supposing four married the minority, although they appear to be a
the fund. That ignorance was absolutely officers of this Government, two married officers comparatively small number, should receive colossal. I will give you an instance in my of class one and two married officers of class two more attention. In this matter we are dealing own experience. I have an extremely in had been on board and had been drowned. with a body, more or less permanent, of civil telligent set of Chinese clerks in the Their widows' pensions would have averaged servants who for many years devote their time office and I asked one the other day- Da $1,500 each, or say, $6,000 in all, which at ten and service, in many cases for 30 years, to the you know what your pension is under the years purchase equals a capital sum of $60,000 public service of the Colony, and in that case it
Widows' and Orphans' Fand? I suppose it is
to be set aside in the fund to cover these is obvious that certain conditions of permanence some wretched $7 or 88 a month, he answered," pensions. That is an example of the liabilities should be observed in dealing with them. II told him to calculate it, and when he did to which the fund is open. The hon. venture to suggest for the consideration so he found that it was $35 a month. And so on member hinted that in taking over this fund of this Council that the minority should right down the service; nobody has really taken any deficit would fall on the taxpayer, but as not have forced upon them in the disposal of the trouble to find out what amount he would I said in my opening remarks there is no the fund to which they have contributed get in return for the four per cent reduction, prospect of insolvency and is a saving for different conditions from those under which Now they have found it. They find it is the Government and for the contributors to they began to contribute to the fund. Pro- good business and they are willing it know that the fund is assured. If the fund bably hon. members will remember the very should be put on a permanent basis guar. became bankrupt I am quite sure that the celebrated legal case which went to the House auteed by the Government, thereby showing community and the Government would not like of Lords some few years ago, the case of the
no little wisdom. Now what of the minor to see the widows; and orphans left destitute. Free Church of Sootland, It will be remembered ity? A great deal has been said of them. But in this matter the proposals of the Govern- that the majority of the members who took part What are you to do with the 37
mentare based on as sound advice as is obtain- in that decision of the House of Lords very Surely you don't propose that the vast majority able. You have the valuation of 1900. The strongly emphasised the fact that where a fund of the civil servants are to forego the benefits Secretary of State in his despatah No. 11, had been contributed to for a certain purpose which I have described in my opening speech in paragraph 10 said that his predecessor had since and under certain conditions it should not order that these 37 men may play dog-in-the-consalted actuaries, and during the months that be diverted. I think, Sir, that the hon. manger. It seems to be impossible to get it into member opposite has very forcibly urged their heads that there is any benefit at all in the arguments in support of the proposition which fund, and I venture to say that these 37 men he has submitted and I content myself by have either not calculated their pension under saying that I agree with those arguments. this fund or they are bachelors who never intend THE COLONIAL SECRETARY-Sir, the hon, to marry or else they belong to that body of member nominated by the Chamber cross-grained individuals who view all Govern- of Commerce twitted ше
with inconsis-ments proposals with disfavour. In my opening despatch speech I tried to demonstrate that a valuation
now would be simply throwing money away valuation was made as recently as 1900, and on that valuation pension tables were instituted on the highest actuarial advice: For the reasons I have tried to give it is inconceivable that if a valuation were made now, the result would be materially different. The colony of Mauritius was mentioned and it was stated a valuation was being taken there prior to Government taking over the fund, but the conditions in that old established Colony are not comparable to the conditions here; and because a valuation was made in Manritins it did not follow that it was necessary that one should be made here. It has also been alleged that there has been undue haste in this matter. That, Sir, is an extraordinary charge inasmuch as it is evident from the cor- respondence laid on the table that this question has been under consideration sinos 1903. In 1905, nearly three years ago, the proposal was brought forward in this Council to trans-
tency, but if he will read my of the 24th June, 1907, he will not find therein one single word in the nature of expressing an opinion one way or the other. I was asked by the Secretary of State to have this question of the transfer of the fund further considered and if possible to legislate in the necessary direction." I found, Sir, that the service almost to a man opposed the proposal, and I offered, as it turned out, extremely sound advice when I suggested to the Secretary of State to let the matter rest. The matter has rested, Sir, with the result that now after a year's consideration and after tak- ing the trouble for the first time to inform themselves of the nature of this Widows' and Orphans' Pension Fund, the service has come round. The hon member said the conversion was remarkable. Well it is some what remarkable, but it is not at all suprising when you have been behind the scenes and know the condition of absolute ignorance
men P
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the proposals were being made he had as good advice as could be had. I don't think therefore that there is any sufficient reason for delaying this resolution which has been delayed too long.
HIS EXCELLENCY-Gentlemen, I do not pro- pose to say many words on this subject since we have had very full explanations on both sides of the question, on the one hand by my hon. friend, the Colonial Secretary, and on the other by the hon, member who represents the Chamber of Commerce, There is one point slons i will take, and that is the argument by the hon. member on my right that the Imperial Govern- ment has, in this matter, a comparatively secondary interest. The primary interests of this Colony are on the one hand, the officials, and on the other hand, the taxpayers, Wuy in these circumstances, shonid tuis Colony be dictated to and ordered to pass legislation in this strain? That, I take it, was the grave- Now, gentlemen, the Imperial Government men of the question put by my hon. friend. has a very distinct and direct interest in this particular question. It not be overlooked that the civil servants are appointed by the Crown. They are direct servants of the Crown, and the Secretary of State is the representative of Crown. It must not be overlooked that the civil servanta, of
must
this Colony may at any time be transferred to