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as to the definition of external air,' and the names of the members forming such majority." Hon. Mr. POLLOCK-I had intended, sir, to address the Council upon this motion,
His EXCELLENCY-We will give you the privilege to do so.
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[December 28, 1903,
We
THE HONGKONG WEEKLY PRESS AND
proposed of the meaning of the expression of all the various recommendations made to us external air and it passed it accordingly, be- that' which would be the most capable of lieving it to be if not ipsissima verba, at all giving effect to the expression external air. events in effect the definition which received That was what I said in Hansard, nothing the approval of the majority of the Sanitary about asking the house to pass a recommen- Board. All I can say is this that had the hon,dation which was in substance that which was and learned member been present in his place recommended by the Board. Then I proceed- at the time I proposed the definition about ed:" The amendment of the present existing external air and heard the definition there would definition is made on the recommendation of not have been this expression of opinion to-day, the Sanitary Board." So it was. It was made for from nothing which appears in the on their recommendation but not in their words, printed statement. of the objects and They report that at present the definition reasons appended to the Bill nor renders it almost impossible to give effect to from anything which appears in Hansard the real intention of the Ordinance with respect that I said on the occasion is the hon. and to the proper amount of light and air that learned member warranted in saying that I told should be admitted into rooms." That is what the members of this house that the definition I they told us. "A new definition therefore proposed was in substance the definition sub- will be submitted for the consideration of the mitted to the Government for consideration by Council which I believe will be found to at last the Sanitary Board. That is what he has just achieve the difficulty of exactly saying what was said, that I unconsciously and unwittingly led meant by external air." Where is there a word the house into believing that I was recommend about asking this house to adopt a definition ing for their adoption a definition which was which had the sanction of the Sanitary Board in substance that which was recommended by and was in substance that which they had the Sanitary Board. If you turn to the printed recommended ? What I said was that the objects and reasons appended to the Bill you Sanitary Board had recommended that the will find what is printed there is as follows. existing definition should be amended. Before I go any further however I may say have considered that recommendation, One of that the printed objects and reasons the most difficult things we had to do, in which are put on a Bill here form 110 this Bill was to get such a definition part of the Bill itself but are merely in com- of external air as will be capable of be- pliance with the custom which I believe has ing anderstood, and I submit for your always obtained in Hongkong. I am not aware consideration a definition which I believe of it being the custom in any other legislative will achieve that purpose. That is all I said. body either representative or nominative as If the hon. and learned member had been this is. The usual practice in most legislative present in his place in the house he would have assemblies is that when members get a Bill they understood better than he apparently has what get the Bill and the Bill only. The draft is I-asked the house to do, At the same time I discussed before being passed into law, and on am pleased to say I regret that in framing the the second reading, whoever the member objects and reasons I did not make it may be who is in charge of the Bill abundantly clear by iteration and reiteration makes an explanation of its objects and —which I did not think were necessary-what reasons. But in Hongkong the custom ob. #as meant. I did not think it Was tains and I think it is а most con- necessary to say anything more than I venient one-of appending the objects and did say, that in order to give effect to the reasons for the co (venience of members before recommandation of the Sanitary Board that the they came to the Council and to accelerate and defluition should be amended we after grave expedite the business. These are stated shortly and careful consideration at last submitted a and succintly, not in detail such as you give in proposal for a definition which
we believed moving the second reading of the Bill, but the would achieve the object. What the Sanitary objects for which the legislation is introduced. Board did recommend was not practicable. I come to the objects and reasons themselves. Hon. members will see that it was absolutely If you take them you will find in the third para- inpossible for us to have given effect to their graph these
words:- In order to give definition in the shape as to details in which it effect to the Board's, recommendation a new was to be given effect t. We have given effect definition of the expression external to it in a shape which I believe will be accepta. air is submitted to Council." What I ble. say there is "In order to give effect to the Hon. Mr. POLLOCK-With all due deference recommendation 逢 certaiu definition is to the Attorney-General, the inference which I drew from his language was the inference which 9 out of 10 would draw. With regard to the point he mentioned more than once about not having given effect to the ipsissima verba of the clause about definition inserted in the Bill, I would say sim ly and shortly this, as hon, members will see themselves by comparing the Bill as passed into law and the recommendation of the Sanitary Board, that they are absolutely and entirely different in substance one from the other. It is not a question whether the exact language or words or expressions or phrases of the Sanitary Board are used, but there is a complete diversion in substance.
Hon. Mr. POLLOCK-With your Excellency's permission I will make a few remarks explaining the reason why I made this motion. The reason Was that the hon. and learned Attorney-General stated in the objects and reasons attached to the Public Health Amend ment Bill and also, if correctly reported in the newspapers, on the second reading on 7th December that this definition of external air contained in the Public Health Amendment Bill was in substance the definition recommend ed by the Sanitary Board. I am quite sure that the hon. and learned member made the statement in good faith, but he made it under an erroneous impression, and what I say is that the hon. Director of Public Works, who is a member of the Sanitary Board, and who was present at many deliberations of the Sanitary Board at which after great difficulty and after spending some bours upon the subject, the definition of external air was arrived at and agreed to by a majority of the Sanitary Board-what I complain of, sir, is that the Director of Public Works did not get up in his place and remove the misapprehension that must have been caused in the minds of the members of this Council by the statement made by the Attorney-General, As I said just now, sir, this question of external air formed the subject of very anxious deliberation at many meetings of the Sanitary Board. It was a very difficult pont indeed for the members to define, Ultimately, after the subject had been considered at two or three different meetings the sub-committee of the Sanitary Board arrived at a definition of external air and it was then submitted in due course to the full body of the Sanitary Board. Then, sir, at that meeting of the full body of the Sanitary Board & definition of external air was passed which is absolutely and entirely different from the definition of external air as it appears in the Public Health Amendment Bill. Therefore it seems to me that this defini- tion has been passed through this Council and come into law under an erroneous impression as to what the Sanitary Board recommended and therefore, sir, when the question of further amendments to the Public Health Or- dinance comes up as it is sure to do shortly I hope, sir, that you will allow this question of .the definition of external air to be treated as an open question in consequence of the erroneous impression which has been conveyed to the Coun-submitted to the Council." The learned and cil with regard to the recommendation of the Sanitary Board. I do not of coarse complain, sir, of the fact that the hon. Director of Public Works thought that another definition of external air from that which was approved by a majority of the Sanitary Board was advisable. He has got a perfect right to his own opinion in that respect, but what I do complain of, sir, is that he being the only member present at the Council who could state from his own personal knowledge exactly what decision was arrived at and what definition was agreed upon by a majority of the Sanitary Board did not get up in the Council in his place and explain what the decision of the majority was,
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hon. member will see that it is not stated in what shape that recommendation should be given effect to. The Sanitary Board were, not the only body that brought under the notice of the Government the necessity for cousidering a new regular defiui- tion of the expression external air. They made a recommendation. Others made recom- mendations. The recommendation of each was duly and properly considered. The recommendation was to make & new amendment. it was not that the Government was bound hand and foot and this house tied down to pass whatever not the Sanitary Board but a majority of the Sanitary Board in their HIS EXCELLENCY-I regret very much that care and wisdom thought best. The duty of there should have been any misunderstanding The ATTORNEY-GENERAL-Sir, as the Co- the Government on receiving their recommen. in this matter and I think it may perhaps assist lonial Secretary has laid upon the table of the dation was to give effect to it not necessarily to a better understanding of the question if 'I house a paper containing information in respect in the language of the Sanitary Board's state briefly the policy that the Government to the details of the suggestions by which the recommendation but in such language as
has followed and intends to follow in the future Sanitary Board conceived that the recom- would commed itself to the approval of in regard to the matter of amending the Public mendation which they had made to the Govern. this house. So I said in my appended objects Health and Building Bill.
When that very ment to amend the then existing definition and reasons that in order to give effect yoluminous measure was passed the Govern. of external air, all that could be obtained by the to the Board's recommendation a new ment undertook that for some years to o mɔ resolution has been obtained and it would not definition of the expression external air is it would not introduce any fresh sanitary have been necessary for me to have said any submitted to the Council. Turning to Hansard legislation if it could possibly be avoided do.ug thing except for the misapprehension that what do you find that I said? "The greatest so. Therefore in the amending B. which exists in the mind of the hou. and learned difficulty the Government have had in preparing passed the Council at the last neting only member for the Chamber of Commerce. What this Bill for presentation to the Councils is to such amendments as were absolutly -ossary I understand the hop, and learned member to get a definition of external air which would be were made in the principal Ordinance The Bay--and the house will remember that the hon. capable of being given effect to."
amendment of the definition of external air and learned member was not present on the our difficulty. We consulted the Sanitary I took the form of merely verbal alterations t›› occasion to which he has referred-as to what Board. We consulted the Principal Civil the original definition which is found in the occurred on that occasion was this, that owing. Medical Officer. We consulted other persous. principal Ordinance. That definition has not to an unwitting misrepresentation by myself We consulted our adviser the Buildingbeen found to be unworkable, nul it is not of the fact of a certain definition being made Authority. We consulted gentlemen uncon- anticipated that it will be found to be nowork- by the Sanitary Board, the house had been nected altogether, and we consulted among able, because the principal Ordinance gives to the induced to socept a definition which I'ourselves; and our greatest difficulty was to find Governor in Council absolute discretion to
That was