HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 19 July 1995 5439 OFFICIAL RECORD OF PROCEEDINGS
Wednesday, 19 July 1995
The Council met at Nine o’clock
PRESENT
THE PRESIDENT
THE HONOURABLE SIR JOHN SWAINE, C.B.E., LL.D., Q.C., J.P.
THE CHIEF SECRETARY
THE HONOURABLE MRS ANSON CHAN, C.B.E., J.P.
THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY
THE HONOURABLE SIR NATHANIEL WILLIAM HAMISH MACLEOD, K.B.E., J.P.
THE ATTORNEY GENERAL
THE HONOURABLE JEREMY FELL MATHEWS. C.M.G., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE ALLEN LEE PENG-FEI, C.B.E., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE MRS SELINA CHOW LIANG SHUK-YEE. O.B.E., J.P. THE HONOURABLE HUI YIN-FAT, O.B.E., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE MARTIN LEE CHU-MING. Q.C., J.P.
DR THE HONOURABLE DAVID LI KWOK-PO, O.B.E., LL.D., J.P. THE HONOURABLE NGAI SHIU-KIT, O.B.E., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE PANG CHUN-HOI, M.B.E.
THE HONOURABLE SZETO WAH
THE HONOURABLE TAM YIU-CHUNG
THE HONOURABLE ANDREW WONG WANG-FAT, O.B.E., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE LAU WONG-FAT, O.B.E., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE EDWARD HO SING-TIN, O.B.E., J.P.
5440 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 19 July 1995 THE HONOURABLE RONALD JOSEPH ARCULLI, O.B.E., J.P. THE HONOURABLE MARTIN GILBERT BARROW, O.B.E., J.P. THE HONOURABLE MRS PEGGY LAM, O.B.E., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE MRS MIRIAM LAU KIN-YEE, O.B.E., J.P. THE HONOURABLE LAU WAH-SUM, O.B.E., J.P.
DR THE HONOURABLE LEONG CHE-HUNG, O.B.E., J.P. THE HONOURABLE JAMES DAVID McGREGOR, O.B.E., I.S.O., J.P. THE HONOURABLE MRS ELSIE TU, C.B.E.
THE HONOURABLE PETER WONG HONG-YUEN, O.B.E., J.P. THE HONOURABLE ALBERT CHAN WAI-YIP
THE HONOURABLE VINCENT CHENG HOI-CHUEN, O.B.E., J.P. THE HONOURABLE MOSES CHENG MO-CHI
THE HONOURABLE MARVIN CHEUNG KIN-TUNG, O.B.E., J.P. THE HONOURABLE CHEUNG MAN-KWONG
THE HONOURABLE CHIM PUI-CHUNG
REV THE HONOURABLE FUNG CHI-WOOD
THE HONOURABLE FREDERICK FUNG KIN-KEE
THE HONOURABLE TIMOTHY HA WING-HO, M.B.E., J.P. THE HONOURABLE MICHAEL HO MUN-KA
DR THE HONOURABLE HUANG CHEN-YA
THE HONOURABLE SIMON IP SIK-ON, O.B.E., J.P.
DR THE HONOURABLE LAM KUI-CHUN
DR THE HONOURABLE CONRAD LAM KUI-SHING, J.P. THE HONOURABLE EMILY LAU WAI-HING
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 19 July 1995 5441 THE HONOURABLE LEE WING-TAT
THE HONOURABLE ERIC LI KA-CHEUNG, J.P.
THE HONOURABLE FRED LI WAH-MING
THE HONOURABLE MAN SAI-CHEONG
THE HONOURABLE STEVEN POON KWOK-LIM
THE HONOURABLE HENRY TANG YING-YEN, J.P.
THE HONOURABLE TIK CHI-YUEN
DR THE HONOURABLE SAMUEL WONG PING-WAI, M.B.E., J.P. DR THE HONOURABLE PHILIP WONG YU-HONG
DR THE HONOURABLE YEUNG SUM
THE HONOURABLE HOWARD YOUNG, J.P.
THE HONOURABLE ZACHARY WONG WAI-YIN
DR THE HONOURABLE TANG SIU-TONG, J.P.
THE HONOURABLE CHRISTINE LOH KUNG-WAI
THE HONOURABLE ROGER LUK KOON-HOO
THE HONOURABLE ANNA WU HUNG-YUK
THE HONOURABLE JAMES TIEN PEI-CHUN, O.B.E., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE ALFRED TSO SHIU-WAI
THE HONOURABLE LEE CHEUK-YAN
ABSENT
THE HONOURABLE JAMES TO KUN-SUN
IN ATTENDANCE
MR MICHAEL LEUNG MAN-KIN, C.B.E., J.P.
SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER
5442 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 19 July 1995
MR MICHAEL SUEN MING-YEUNG, C.B.E., J.P.
SECRETARY FOR HOME AFFAIRS
MR RONALD JAMES BLAKE, J.P.
SECRETARY FOR WORKS
MR JAMES SO YIU-CHO, O.B.E., J.P.
SECRETARY FOR RECREATION AND CULTURE
THE HONOURABLE MICHAEL SZE CHO-CHEUNG, I.S.O., J.P. SECRETARY FOR THE CIVIL SERVICE
MR GORDON SIU KWING-CHUE, J.P.
SECRETARY FOR ECONOMIC SERVICES
MR KWONG KI-CHI, J.P.
SECRETARY FOR THE TREASURY
MR MICHAEL DAVID CARTLAND, J.P.
SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES
MR DOMINIC WONG SHING-WAH, O.B.E., J.P.
SECRETARY FOR HOUSING
MR BOWEN LEUNG PO-WING, J.P.
SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS
MRS REGINA IP LAU SUK-YEE, J.P.
SECRETARY FOR TRADE AND INDUSTRY
MR KENNETH JOSEPH WOODHOUSE, J.P.
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY
THE CLERK TO THE LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL
MR RICKY FUNG CHOI-CHEUNG
THE DEPUTY SECRETARY GENERAL
MR LAW KAM-SANG
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 19 July 1995 5443 PAPERS
The following papers were laid on the table pursuant to Standing Order 14(2): Subject
Subsidiary Legislation L.N. No.
Merchant Shipping (Safety) (Musters and
Training) (Amendment) Regulation 1995 ............................................ 316/95
Merchant Shipping (Safety) (Arrangements for
Embarkation and Disembarkation of Pilots)
Regulation............................................................................................. 317/95
Merchant Shipping (Safety) (Carriage of Cargoes)
Regulation............................................................................................. 318/95
Merchant Shipping (Safety) (Grain) (Amendment)
Regulation 1995.................................................................................... 319/95
Merchant Shipping (Prevention and Control of
Pollution) (Charges for Discharge of Polluting
Waste) Regulation................................................................................. 320/95
Port Control (Cargo Working Areas) (Amendment)
Regulation 1995.................................................................................... 321/95
Official Languages (Alteration of Text)
(Companies Ordinance) Order 1995..................................................... 322/95
Statutes of the Chinese University of Hong Kong
(Amendment) (No. 2) Statute 1995 ......................................................
Occupational Retirement Schemes (Amendment)
Ordinance 1995 (53 of 1995) (Commencement)
323/95
Notice 1995........................................................................................... 324/95
Official Languages (Authentic Chinese Text)
(Consumer Council Ordinance) Order.................................................. (C)50/95
Official Languages (Authentic Chinese Text)
(Hong Kong Examinations Authority Ordinance)
Order ..................................................................................................... (C)51/95
Official Languages (Authentic Chinese Text)
(Companies Ordinance) Order.............................................................. (C)52/95
5444 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 19 July 1995 Sessional Papers 1994-95
No.111 － Secretary for Home Affairs Incorporated
Statement of Accounts for the year ended 31 March 1994
No.112 － Clothing Industry Training Authority
Annual Report 1994
No.113 － Construction Industry Training Authority
1994 Annual Report
No.114 － Report of the Select Committee on
Kwun Lung Lau Landslip and Related Issues
No.115 － Hong Kong Export Credit Insurance Corporation
Annual Report for 1994-95
No.116 － The Seventh Annual Report of the Commissioner for
Administrative Complaints Hong Kong
June 1995
ADDRESS
Report of the Select Committee on Kwun Lung Lau Landslip and Related Issues
DR HUANG CHEN-YA (in Cantonese): Mr President, the Select Committee, set up by the Legislative Council on 12 October last year, to enquire into the Kwun Lung Lau landslip and related issues have completed their work. I would like to present the Report on behalf of the Select Committee.
On the evening of 23 July last year, a serious landslide occurred below Block D of Kwun Lung Lau, Western District. A masonry wall collapsed, and about 1 000 cubic metres of debris slided down from the slope and fell on the footpath below it, unfortunately killing five persons and injuring three others. Some 4 000 residents had to evacuate immediately. I believe many members of the public, as well as Members of this Council, still remember clearly the dangerous and desperate situation at that time.
The Select Committee are very much concerned about the cause of the landslide and the adequacy or otherwise of the contingency services provided in this incident. The Select Committee held 22 meetings, including five public hearings, met 34 witnesses and examined many written submissions and evidence. The purpose was to scrutinize matters relating to these concerns. The findings, conclusions and recommendations are in this Report. I would like to briefly report on a few major points.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 19 July 1995 5445
First of all, I would like to deal with the cause of the landslide and, as many people might be concerned of, the question of responsibility. Professor MORGENSTERN, the Canadian expert appointed by the Government, and the Civil Engineering Department of the Hong Kong Government, published a technical investigation report on the cause of the landslide in November last year. The report pointed out that the landslide was caused by leakage of the foulwater drains and the stormwater drainage systems, which were respectively beneath and adjacent to the slope in question. A lot of rain water flowed into the slope through the defective underground stormwater drainage systems after days of heavy rain. The masonry wall, which was at the foot of the slope, was found to be only about 750 mm thick, and not about 4m as shown on the relevant Site Formation Plans. A wall so thin was unable to support the slope, and Professor MORGENSTERN has also pointed out that the potential problems of the slope and the masonry wall, that is the actual wall thickness and the leakage of the underground drainage systems, were foreseeable, in theory, at different stages.
Based on the analysis of Professor MORGENSTERN, the Select Committee carefully considered the role and responsibility of the different parties concerned at different stages. The Select Committee have found that several factors had to combine for this landslide to occur. However, there were shortcomings, in varying degrees, in the different parties concerned.
We have to begin from 1965 in order to understand the chain of events. In 1965, preparation was in hand for the construction of Kwun Lung Lau. The Authorized Person submitted relevant Site Formation Plans to the Building Authority. The wall was shown in solid lines on the Site Formation Plans as a stepped-back masonry wall, with a thickness scaled to be about 4m. Unfortunately, as revealed from later events, the Plans were used at a number of stages as the basis to assess the stability of the slope and the masonry wall in question. The inaccurate information regarding the wall thickness affected the judgment of the parties concerned, thus leading to inaccurate assessment of the stability of the slope and the masonry wall. The Select Committee consider that the Authorized Person was seriously at fault in providing such incorrect and misleading information to the Building Authority. The Building Authority did not ask for verification of an important piece of information on the Plans before approval and thereby perpetuated the error thereon regarding the wall thickness.
In 1987, the Geotechnical Engineering Office carried out a Stage 1 Study for the masonry wall, which was aimed to determine whether a detailed stability study was required. The Site Formation Plans submitted and approved in 1965 were used as the basis of this Stage 1 Study. The study concluded that the wall was in good condition and that no further study was required. Unfortunately, as events had proved, this was an inaccurate assessment. The Select Committee consider that the Geotechnical Engineering Office had the duty to ensure the reliability of the information and methodology for assessing slope stability. However, they relied on an old drawing which had been submitted more than 20
5446 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 19 July 1995
years before and allowed unverified information thereon to be used in this Stage 1 Study, thus leading to an inaccurate assessment of the stability of the slope and the wall and preventing early detection of their potential problems.
In the same year, the Geotechnical Engineering Office regarded the risk category of the masonry wall from “high” to “low to moderate” in accordance with the risk categorization system when the squatters beneath the wall was cleared in March. The Select Committee consider that a wall such as the one in question, which was close to a footpath and might affect the structural integrity of the buildings nearby in case of collapse, should justifiably be a cause for greater concern. The fact that the wall was downgraded to a “low to moderate” risk category could have reduced the degree of alertness of all parties concerned regarding the stability of the wall and the consequence of its failure.
The Select Committee consider that the Geotechnical Engineering Office has the duty to put in place a reliable and effective landslip prevention system. This incident has revealed weaknesses in the system. The Geotechnical Engineering Office has also fallen short of public expectation.
In fact, since 1982, the Hong Kong Housing Society has been engaging Consultants for advice regarding stability and maintenance of slopes at Kwun Lung Lau. The Select Committee have found that the works respectively performed by the two Consultants’ firms were mainly visual inspections and detection of surface defects. The Consultants did not conduct investigations or detailed stability analysis for the slope. The Select Committee have found no evidence that the Consultants ever advised the Housing Society so as to forewarn it that the works which were done might not be sufficient to ensure the safety of the slope; nor did they advise the Housing Society of the importance of monitoring the subsurface drainage systems in relation to the stability of the slope. The Select Committee consider that if the Housing Society had been given such advice, and unless the Housing Society had refused to carry out any resulting necessary works, it would have been possible for some, if not all, of the potential problems of the slope to have been detected. The Select Committee consider that, in this incident, the Consultants had failed to adopt a more insightful and critical approach in advising their client for the purpose of meeting the overall objective of landslip prevention.
Regarding the Hong Kong Housing Society, the Select Committee have found no evidence that it did not properly discharge its responsibility as regards engaging consultants and responding to their advice. The Select Committee have, however, found that the Housing Society did not properly keep all relevant reports and records relating to the slopes at Kwun Lung Lau. The Select Committee consider that this was not a good practice; the Housing Society, being the owner of the slopes, should keep all relevant documents in-house in future.
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Mr President, landslides may seriously affect our life and property. It is therefore not unreasonable to expect a high degree of care and attention from all parties concerned who have a duty to ensure slope safety. To prevent similar incidents, Professor MORGENSTERN and the Works Branch have respectively proposed some improvement measures. The Select Committee have also drawn on the experience of this incident and made recommendations in the Report with a view to improving the system for landslip prevention. In particular, the Select Committee recommend that the Government should submit biannual progress reports to the Legislative Council Panel on Planning, Lands and Works regarding the implementation of the various improvement measures.
Mr President, the Select Committee are also concerned about the adequancy or otherwise of the contingency services provided in this incident and in emergencies in general.
In this incident, five persons were killed, three were injured, some 4 000 residents had to evacuate. The Select Committee consider that this was a very serious incident, which posed a serious test on government’s ability to respond to emergencies. No doubt, many good efforts had been made in handling this emergency, there were, however, deficiencies in a number of areas: the alerting system was unsatisfactory; the Civil Engineering Department was not immediately notified when the incident occured; the duty officers of the Civil Engineering Department and the Social Welfare Department arrived at least an hour after their departments had been respectively notified; there was confusion upon evacuation; there could be earlier information dissemination and setting up of the telephone hotline: there was also confusion at Shek Tong Tsui Indoor Games Hall when the residents were arranged in a time consuming and inefficient process to go back to Kwun Lung Lau to collect their belongings two days after the incident took place. The Select Committee consider that the Government departments concerned should improve on these deficiencies so as to be more able to handle future emergencies.
I wish now to talk about the performance and role of the Government Secretariat Emergency Co-ordination Centre (GSECC) because this is a major concern of the Select Committee.
According to the submission of the Security Branch, in the event of a disaster, GSECC would co-ordinate and monitor the overall response and would also facilitate inter departmental liaison, and so on.
However, the Select Committee do not consider that GSECC was able to perform this function in this incident. Throughout the night, the duty officers were busy trying to match the various information and to certify certain details. They did not even notify the Secretary for Security nor did they consider it necessary for GSECC to have full manning instead of partial manning. The Select Committee consider that this landslide was a very serious emergency, GSECC should have had a more important role to play in this incident. If GSECC had acted proactively and vigilantly, it could have strengthened the
5448 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 19 July 1995
communication and co-ordination of the various contingency services so as to, at least, enable some of them to have responded to the incident more promptly and efficiently. The Select Committee consider that the Government should review, clarify and strengthen the role of GSECC so that it can discharge the strategic function as the emergency co-ordination centre of the Government Secretariat.
Mr President, the Report in front of you is the result of months of detailed and careful scrutiny of all evidence and materials.
With this enquiry, the Select Committee wish to remind all that our well-being is not a matter to be taken for granted. We should constantly, proactively and vigilantly monitor and review our procedures, practices and systems with a view to minimizing the risks we are exposed to, and their consequences, and maximizing our ability to respond to any emergency should it inevitably occurs.
Mr President, the Kwun Lung Lau incident has taught us a hard lesson. The Select Committee wish to express their sympathy for those who were injured and those who had lost their beloved family members in this tragedy. The Select Committee also thank all those who have assisted in this enquiry. For myself, I would like to thank all other Members of the Select Committee for their contribution and co-operation. I hope this report will remind us that we should make good use of this tragic experience to avert a further tragedy.
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
Sex Education for Secondary School Students
1. MR TIK CHI-YUEN asked (in Cantonese): According to a survey conducted by the Curriculum Development Institute, some students begin to have intimate contacts and relationship with the opposite sex in varying degrees when they are in secondary school. Will the Government inform this Council:
(a) what action has been taken, apart from carrying out research studies through the Chinese University of Hong Kong, to make the sex education curriculum more in tune with the needs of students;
(b) how it can ensure that all teachers are provided with sufficient training to enable them to impart proper sexual knowledge to students; and
(c) how it will promote co-operation between families and schools with a view to helping students to obtain proper sex knowledge?
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 19 July 1995 5449 SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER (in Cantonese): Mr President,
(a) At present, over 60 topics relating to sex education are taught in the context of 9 different subjects at different levels in primary and secondary schools. The curriculum and syllabuses of these subjects are under constant review by the relevant Curriculum Development Council subject committees and updated regularly to keep up with changing needs. Apart from that, when subject inspectors conduct school visits, they will also give up-to-date advice on sex education to schools. They will also give advice to teachers through in-service teacher education programmes. Early next year the Education Department will undertake an overall review of the Guidelines on Sex Education in Schools.
(b) Over the past three years, a total of 2,550 pre-service and 363 in-service teachers have received training/retraining in sex education. In addition, an average of 120 teachers attend sex education courses organized by the Family Planning Association of Hong Kong each year. The Education Department also provides resource materials and teaching kits to schools in support of their teaching activities, with further teaching or display materials available to schools at the Department’s two Sex Education Resource Centres. In the past three years, 62 schools have borrowed such materials from the two Resource Centres.
(c) Following the recommendation of Education Commission Report No. 5, a Committee on Home-School Co-operation was set up to advise the Education Department on ways to stimulate and co-ordinate sustained progress in home school co-operation. Since its inception in 1993, the Committee has been actively promoting co-operation between schools and parents via measures such as establishment of Parent-Teacher Associations and organizing district parent education programmes. The Committee will soon conduct a survey of parents’ views on sex education. The findings of the survey will provide the data base on how families and schools may work together to help students in this respect.
5450 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 19 July 1995
MR TIK CHI-YUEN (in Cantonese): In paragraph two of his reply, the Secretary mentioned how information was provided to teachers to help them gain more knowledge in this respect. However, a study by the Curriculum Development Institute shows that 60% of those secondary school students who encountered problems in sex did not have the appropriate channels to get information. Most of them obtained information in this respect from friends, newspapers and the media. This shows that they may not be able to obtain the correct information to help them solve their problems. In view of the findings of this study, does the Administration have any specific measures to help the teachers or school social workers play an active part, so that students will turn to them for advice when they have problems?
SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER (in Cantonese): Mr President, the study of the Curriculum Development Institute is very useful to us. One of the main results of that study is a recommendation to foster a proper sense in this respect, beginning from senior primary grades. Another important point raised is that we should strengthen the training of teachers, and should also provide two different types of training to our students, that is, the right sex knowledge and the correct sex attitude. Both are very important and they complement each other. Sex knowledge not supported by the correct sex attitude is sure to bring unthinkable consequences. This I believe is known to all. Therefore, we will mainly use these recommendations as the basis to review the secondary school sex education guidelines that we will revise early next year. We hope that by virtue of this study, more specific information on sex education that will meet current needs can be provided to students, teachers and parents.
At present we are promoting work in this respect in three areas:
First, school teachers, with the assistance of social workers, will help students obtain at the earliest possible time the latest and correct sex knowledge and sex attitude.
Second, through curricular and inter-curricular promotion, a wide range of activities will be provided to students outside school or as part of the normal school curriculum. Activities outside school will cover different media, such as visits, interviews and correct social activities. All these are very helpful.
Third, we will help teachers acquire the correct knowledge in this respect by providing them with training through resource centres, so that they in turn can help students develop in the correct direction.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 19 July 1995 5451
Lastly, the Committee in which Mr TIK is a member is very helpful because the Committee on Home-School Co-operation will surely foster a closer relationship between families and schools, enabling both the teachers and the parents to offer immediate assistance to youngsters when they encounter problems during their adolescence period. We think that this is very useful and very important.
MRS PEGGY LAM (in Cantonese): Mr President, I repeatedly requested the Education Department (ED) to include sex education into the school curriculum as early as in the late 1960’s. After over a decade’s effort, ED finally incorporated sex education in the subject of “Social Study”, and later agreed to have this subject as a Certificate of Education Examination subject. This is good news. Furthermore, many teachers received training on the teaching of sex education. However, I know that some schools are not offering such subject even in the present day, and think that sex education is not important. Can the Administration inform this Council how many schools in Hong Kong are now offering sex education in their formal curriculum? How many offer sex education in their informal curriculum? And how many schools do not have sex education programmes at all?
SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER (in Cantonese): Mr President, as far as I know, we have not had a comprehensive survey as to under which subject areas schools are conducting sex education programmes. We will of course follow this up.
Naturally, I am very pleased with the encouragement and assistance the Family Planning Association has offered us in this respect. We are very willing to continue the co operation with the Family Planning Association.
I think the issue is a long-term one. We must truly and actually change the attitude of the parents and the schools. so that they have the correct attitude towards sex awareness and sex attitude. We hope that through the school curriculum and activities outside school, and the training of teachers, our youngsters will obtain the correct sex attitude. We will continue to work hard in this respect.
5452 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 19 July 1995
MR CHEUNG MAN-KWONG (in Cantonese): Mr President, the Guidelines on Sex Education in Secondary Schools and the teaching of sex education in the context of different subjects as mentioned in the main reply do not require all students to complete a full sex education programme. If the Administration recognizes that sex education, sex knowledge and even sex attitude are the knowledge and attitude that each and every junior or senior secondary school student must have, I wish to ask whether the Administration has considered the proposal of the education sector that the subject of comprehensive civic education be introduced, which among other things will include a complete sex education programme that is relevant to secondary school students and their ages, and make the subject a compulsory one for all secondary school students?
SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER (in Cantonese): Mr President, at present secondary schools have seven subjects that are related to sex education, and in primary schools there are two, with an additional one next year, making it a total of three subjects. That is, there are at present a total of 10 subjects that are related to the fostering and training of sex education and sex attitude. We maintain an open mind regarding the proposal of Mr CHEUNG. We will refer this proposal to the Curriculum Development Council, they may like to consider whether or not a brand new and independent subject should be introduced to include all the relevant elements. We will actively consider this proposal.
Customary Rights of Female Indigenous Villagers of the New Territories 2. MISS CHRISTINE LOH asked: Will the Government inform this Council:
(a) what customary rights are being enjoyed by the female indigenous villagers of the New Territories; and what are the changes in these customary rights after the passage of the New Territories Land (Exemption) Bill and the Sex Discrimination Bill; and
(b) what measures are being adopted by the Government to promote the customary rights and those new rights under the New Territories Land (Exemption) Ordinance and the Sex Discrimination Ordinance among the female indigenous villagers?
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 19 July 1995 5453
SECRETARY FOR HOME AFFAIRS: Mr President, by virtue of their indigenous status, female indigenous villagers are entitled to exemption of rates in respect of the village houses in which they live and to concession of Crown rents in respect of rural land and property which they hold. They are also permitted to be buried in the New Territories within approved areas outside gazetted cemeteries.
These are not changed in any way by the enactment of the New Territories Land (Exemption) Ordinance and the Sex Discrimination Ordinance.
The Government maintains continual efforts in promoting female indigenous villagers’ awareness and understanding of their rights. Following enactment of the New Territories Land (Exemption) Ordinance, a publicity leaflet explaining the purpose and the key features of the Ordinance was distributed to all villagers. A special television civic education programme which focused particularly on the rights of female indigenous villagers under this Ordinance was produced last November. In addition, Liaison Officers in the New Territories District Offices also helped explain the provisions of the new legislation to villagers. Similar publicity will be made to promote understanding of the provisions of the new Sex Discrimination Ordinance.
MISS CHRISTINE LOH: Thank you, Mr President. Could the Secretary just clarify, in his first paragraph in enumerating the various rights of the female indigenous villagers, that the three rights he has enumerated are the only rights peculiar to the female indigenous villagers? For example, when he refers to burial rights, could he please clarify who should be paying for the cost of the burial? Does the right actually mean that the male members of the family should be paying for those rights? I wonder whether he can clarify that.
And I think secondly is the effective date of the Sex Discrimination Bill. When that will come in and how the Secretary will promote elections in the villages?
PRESIDENT: Two questions there, Secretary.
5454 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 19 July 1995
SECRETARY FOR HOME AFFAIRS: Mr President, as regards the three rights which I have mentioned in the first paragraph of my reply, the first two derive from the indigenous status of female indigenous villagers. Actually these are prescribed in statutes. These are statutory rights which apply only to indigenous villagers including female villagers. Similarly, the burial right is a customary right which applies to the New Territories and it applies across the board to both female and male villagers. It does not go into such detail as to who pays for the burial ceremonies. It is a right connected with the burial ground that they are permitted to be buried outside gazetted areas, outside gazetted cemeteries within approved areas for this purpose.
Insofar as the second question is concerned, the Sex Discrimination Ordinance, as I mentioned or rather as the acting Secretary for Home Affairs mentioned in these Chambers on 28 June, will come into effect after the Equal Opportunities Commission has been established and after the Equal Opportunities Commission has been given the opportunity to make all the codes of practices regulating the different behaviours provided for under the Ordinance. It provides for different sections to be introduced at different times and we aim to have the Equal Opportunities Commission established as soon as possible. In any case, we aim for the establishment not later than the end of the year and I think if the Commission proceeds with their job immediately, we can expect the Sex Discrimination Ordinance to be brought into effect about the middle of next year.
Insofar as village elections are concerned, as I have told Members on different occasions in these Chambers, that the Heung Yee Kuk has already accepted the principle of equal rights for all villagers to participate in rural elections and most of the villages now have accepted that, even in the absence of statutory provision. And at a meeting of this Council sometime ago I said that there were then only 29 villages left which did not accept, have still not accepted this principle and I said then that we would be working on them. Now that the new Sex Discrimination Ordinance has been passed with provision in this particular regard, we have written to the Heung Yee Kuk reminding them of the new provisions in the Ordinance and we have drawn this particular provision to the notice of the 29 villages concerned and also informed them of the implications.
MR MARTIN LEE: Mr President, I am sure the female indigenous villagers of the New Territories are very happy to know that they will attain equality when they are buried. But when will the Government do something to ensure that they enjoy equality before they die?
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 19 July 1995 5455
SECRETARY FOR HOME AFFAIRS: Mr President, with the passage of the Sex Discrimination Ordinance, equality, I think, will be ensured. It is now a statutory provision. And as I have said in my main reply, we will be publicizing the various rights contained in the new Ordinance to the villagers in a similar way to what we did after the passage of the New Territories Land (Exemption) Ordinance so that everyone is aware of their rights under the new Ordinance.
REV FUNG CHI-WOOD (in Cantonese): Mr President, can the Administration tell us the number of cases where female indigenous villagers have applied for succession to land in the New Territories since the passage and coming into effect of the New Territories Land (Exemption) Ordinance? And how many cases were successful?
SECRETARY FOR HOME AFFAIRS: Mr President, I have not got detailed figures with me. I will provide such information to the Honourable Member in writing. (Annex I)
MISS EMILY LAU (in Cantonese): Mr President, the Secretary said that at present indigenous villagers in the New Territories, male or female, are enjoying equality. As the main question is about customary rights, will the Secretary confirm that of all the customary rights of New Territories indigenous villagers, what male villagers enjoy, female villagers can also enjoy?
SECRETARY FOR HOME AFFAIRS: Mr President, the question specifically asks about customary rights being enjoyed by female indigenous villagers and that is why I have couched my reply in those terms. I think insofar as customary rights are concerned, precisely because they are customary they are not codified. We do not find them in the statute books being codified as such and there are certain recognized rights which apply across all the villages in the New Territories. But I am afraid tradition being what it is, is a bit different between various villages. So although there are certain traditional rights applying throughout the New Territories, there are different variations to the main theme when it is applied to different villages and I am afraid, again depending on different villages, the precise way it is applied to male and female might be a little bit different. They are different, but not in the discriminatory sense.
5456 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 19 July 1995
MR WONG WAI-YIN (in Cantonese): There is a right that some female indigenous villagers should be entitled to, and that is the sharing of compensation given by the Government for ancestral land otherwise known as “Tong Tso land”, this is usually shared by male members of the families concerned. In the case of the male household head having died without male issue, the female household head, that is the wife of the household head, should be given a share of the compensation. However, we know that in many villages, village elders and male villagers will withhold such payments. Is the Secretary aware of this situation? And how will the Home Affairs Department help these female villagers restore their right?
SECRETARY FOR HOME AFFAIRS: Mr President, as the Honourable Member has rightly pointed out, in those cases the share due to a widow who has no issue is hers. I have not received any complaints in this regard. But according to the Honourable Member, if such cases occur then I think they should make a complaint to the District Office and I think the District Officers will look into those complaints because certainly the case raised by the Members is not permissible and if such complaints are raised with the District Office then we will follow up.
MISS CHRISTINE LOH: Mr President, my question was not answered and I wonder if you would let me just ask the question again?
PRESIDENT: Yes.
MISS CHRISTINE LOH: My first question in fact was not answered because I asked the Secretary what were the customary rights of the female indigenous villagers and in his first paragraph he basically said that there were none. He said that the three rights in his answer are really common to all, male and female, indigenous villagers. So I want to ask the Secretary, are there no rights, customary rights, pertinent just to the female indigenous villagers? If his answer should be no, that there are not, then I think this Council might wish to dispute that point with him?
SECRETARY FOR HOME AFFAIRS: Mr President, as I have said in my main reply, the fact that they are allowed to be buried is a customary right. For the other two, as I made clear in my reply, are entitled to exemption by virtue of the statutory provisions.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 19 July 1995 5457 Rules on Briefing Out Cases in Legal and Legal Aid Departments
3. MISS EMILY LAU asked: In reply to a question at the Legislative Council sitting on 21 June 1995, the Government revealed that a barrister in private practice who was the husband of the Deputy Director of the Legal Aid Department had been assigned 17 legal aid cases by the Legal Aid Department during the period from 1 January 1994 to I May 1995. The fees of 11 of these cases had been settled, which involved a total of over $800,000. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) whether the Legal Aid Department and the Legal Department have laid down any rules specifying the conditions under which cases are permitted to be briefed out to relatives of senior staff in the two Departments; if so, what these rules are; and
(b) how these two Departments can ensure that the existing monitoring mechanism is effective in preventing unfairness and favouritism in the briefing out of cases?
ATTORNEY GENERAL: Mr President, all civil servants are subject to rules relating to conflict of interest, which give guidance on how a conflict of interest can be avoided and the appropriate courses of action to be taken if such a conflict arises. In the Legal Aid Department and Legal Department, a circular setting out details of the rules is circulated once every six months to remind all staff that they should avoid or declare, as appropriate, any conflict that may arise.
For the Legal Aid Department, all professional officers on first appointment are required to declare the names of any private practitioners on the Legal Aid Panel who have a close personal relationship with them. “Close personal relationship” includes immediate family members.
In addition, professional officers are required, on an individual case basis, to make a declaration to their supervising officer if an assignment involves a conflict of interest. The supervising officer would then consider whether it would be more appropriate to assign the case to another private practitioner or to instruct another professional officer to handle the case. Where the supervising officer has a conflict of interest with the proposed private practitioner, the proposal would be submitted to the supervising officer’s own supervisor for approval.
5458 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 19 July 1995
These arrangements were put into place on 30 June 1995 on the advice of the Corruption Prevention Department of the Independent Commission Against Corruption (ICAC); and will be kept under regular review by the Departmental Monitoring Committee chaired by the Director of Legal Aid, and attended by a representative from the ICAC. The Monitoring Committee, including a member of the ICAC, has been scrutinizing assignments since 1993. The whole committee were aware that the Deputy Director is the spouse of a member of the Bar.
As regards the Legal Department, the civil service rules on conflict of interest to which I have just referred apply and there are no additional rules relating to briefing out of cases to relatives of senior staff. In fact, no directorate staff within the Prosecutions or Civil Divisions of the Department has any relatives at the private Bar. Two have relatives working in solicitors’ firms but so far as we can ascertain no government legal work has been assigned to these firms. The present briefing out procedures of the Legal Department have developed over the years and have incorporated changes recommended by the ICAC following reviews in 1988, 1990 and 1993, as well as new measures adopted by the Director of Public Prosecutions early this year. As Members are aware, a broadly-based working party has recently been set up to review briefing out procedures in the Legal Department. That working party will look into the question of briefing out to relatives to see whether further improvements are necessary.
The existing system in the Legal Department for briefing out cases is designed to prevent unfairness and favouritism. Briefing out of standard criminal cases is done on the basis of rotation and availability of counsel on the briefing-out lists. For all cases of unusual length and complexity, or those which involve fee negotiation, at least two directorate officers are involved in the selection process, with the final approval resting with the Law Officer concerned. In all cases, a written record is kept on file of the time and date of contact, the name of counsel contacted, the results and the reason for selecting a particular counsel.
MISS EMILY LAU: Mr President, would the Attorney General please inform this Council whether the Deputy Director of the Legal Aid Department in question was directly involved in briefing out any or all of the 17 cases to her husband? And also, regarding the additional arrangements put into place on 30 June this year, which of course Members will recall was only nine days after Mrs TU put in her question on this subject on 21 June, would the Attorney General please inform this Council whether these arrangements, on the advice of the ICAC, were a belated attempt to rectify the oversight not only by the Department’s Monitoring Committee but also by the ICAC which is represented on the Committee?
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 19 July 1995 5459
ATTORNEY GENERAL: Mr President, of the 17 cases referred to in the question, six were civil cases concerning personal injuries and 11 were criminal cases. Recommendations on the assignment of those cases were made by the respective case officers concerned and the decisions were subsequently endorsed by their section heads. In respect of the 11 criminal cases, the Deputy Director of Legal Aid was involved as the approving officer in respect of those cases assigned to her husband.
As regards the second part of the question, the advice of the Corruption Prevention Department of the ICAC was given in the early part of this year, well before June, although I do not have the precise date when that report was submitted.
MRS ELSIE TU: Mr President, the last paragraph of the reply states that the briefing out by the Legal Aid Department is done on the basis of rotation and availability on the briefing-out lists. Could the Attorney General inform us how many barristers on the briefing-out lists have not been assigned any cases at all within the last five years in comparison with 17 cases assigned to the husband of the Deputy Director within 16 months, and the reasons why no assignments were made to them?
ATTORNEY GENERAL: Mr President, could I ask, through you, for Mrs TU to clarify that question. The last part of my main answer referred to the Legal Department. I am not sure if her question is directed at the Legal Department or the Legal Aid Department.
PRESIDENT: Mrs TU.
MRS ELSIE TU: Mr President, I said at the beginning, the Legal Aid Department.
ATTORNEY GENERAL: Mr President, I am informed that as at 30 June of this year, there are 561 counsels and 1 158 solicitors on the Legal Aid Panel. About 70% of them have been assigned Legal Aid work in the past three years. I do not have the further information requested by the Honourable Member, I will make enquiries and let her have a written reply. (Annex II)
PRESIDENT: Not answered, Mrs TU?
5460 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 19 July 1995
MRS ELSIE TU: If in the written reply the Attonery General will give the reasons why these barristers were not assigned, and if possible, if they were unavailable, would they confirm?
ATTORNEY GENERAL: Certainly.
MR MAN SAI-CHEONG (in Cantonese): Regarding the briefing out of cases by the Legal Aid Department and Legal Department, can the Attorney General inform this Council whether the case cited by Miss LAU is a case of favouritism, or one that has already given the public an impression of favouritism?
PRESIDENT: Sorry, I did not quite catch it, Mr MAN.
MR MAN SAI-CHEONG (in Cantonese): Regarding the briefing out of cases by the Legal Aid Department and Legal Department, can the Attorney General inform this Council that the case cited by Miss LAU is a case of favouritism, or one that has already given the public an impression of favouritism?
PRESIDENT: Yes, you are really asking for an opinion, are you not, Mr MAN?
MR MAN SAI-CHEONG: Yes. I am trying to ascertain whether after the follow-up study of the case referred to by Miss Emily LAU, the Attorney General has the final analysis that there may be the perception of favouritism already propelled by this case?
PRESIDENT: You are still asking for an opinion, I fear.
MR MARVIN CHEUNG: Mr President, could the Attorney General confirm whether the cases in question took place prior to 30 June 1995, and if so, could the Attorney General please describe the arrangements for declaration of interest which was applicable to the Department at the relevant times because clearly the answers he gave in the main reply refer to the procedures after 30 June 1995?
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 19 July 1995 5461
ATTORNEY GENERAL: Mr President, I can confirm that the cases were assigned before the arrangements to which I referred in my main answer were in place. At that time, the rules on conflict of interest, to which I also referred, applied. I should add that the Departmental Monitoring Committee has been in place since 1993. That Committee, chaired by the Director of Legal Aid, comprising senior staff including a member of the ICAC, sees on a regular basis all assignments of work. I am informed that subsequent to the allocation of the assignment of these cases the Monitoring Committee was made aware of those cases being assigned.
MISS EMILY LAU: Mr President, in relation to the 11 criminal cases which the Attorney General told us were directly in charge by the Deputy Director of Legal Aid and briefed out to her husband, would the Attorney General please inform this Council, now that there are additional arrangements put in place, would that have been allowed under the new regime?
ATTORNEY GENERAL: Mr President, could I just clarify that the actual assignment, so I am informed, was carried out by the individual case officer. The covering approval was from the Deputy Director. Mr President, I could not say whether the new arrangements would apply, but I have described those new arrangements. What I will do is to reflect the concerns underlying that question back to the Director.
Quality of Dongjiang River Water
4. MR ALLEN LEE asked (in Cantonese): Will the Government inform this Council:
(a) whether the water piped into Hong Kong from the Dongjiang River contains a substance which may cause osteocarcinoma; and
(b) why the Water Supplies Department has refused, for fear of arousing panic among the public, to provide the media with data on the quality of water from the Dongjiang River before being processed by Hong Kong’s water treatment works?
5462 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 19 July 1995 SECRETARY FOR WORKS: Mr President,
(a) From our analysis, there is no evidence to suggest that the raw water from Dongjiang River contains substances at levels likely to cause osteocarcinoma. Furthermore, the quality of our treated water complies with the Guideline Values of Drinking Water Quality of the World Health Organization (WHO), and hence is completely safe to drink.
(b) There is no question of withholding data on the quality of Dongjiang River water in order to avoid public panic. In fact, such data has been provided on various occasions upon request, including Members of this Council.
The amount of data on the tests to control the quality of both raw and potable water, is very considerable. Each year, over 600 000 tests are carried out on raw and treated water, and each test result is intended to be understood by a trained person. Improper interpretation by a non-scientific writer could convey the wrong message to the public at large.
We will review information channels to ensure that the laboratory testing procedures, the internal standards of compliance, and the correct interpretation of results are available to the public upon request.
MR ALLEN LEE (in Cantonese): Mr President, Mr BLAKE, the Secretary for Works, expressed that if the Dongjiang River water failed to meet the water quality as specified in the supply agreement, the Hong Kong side could refuse the supply. Would the Secretary tell us if we refuse Dongjiang River water where from can we get our drinking water supply?
SECRETARY FOR WORKS: Mr President, the Dongjiang River water comprises up to 70% of our total water requirements in any one year, and of course the reservoirs in the territory also contain a substantial amount of water. The amount of such water depends year on year and subject to seasonal rainfall. If there were any immediate problems with Dongjiang water detected as a result of testing, then the raw water would be immediately stopped and we would be able to obtain water from our storage reservoirs to maintain supply of potable water in the territory.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 19 July 1995 5463
REV FUNG CHI-WOOD (in Cantonese): Mr President, the Secretary mentioned that improper interpretation by a non-scientific writer of announced test result could convey the wrong message to the public at large. It is hardly convincing that Secretary chose to refuse publicizing the full information of the tests on such grounds. Would the Secretary let this Council have all the information and results of the tests on Dongjiang River water? If he is prepared to do so, an interpretation by trained personnel could be included in the information supplied; if not, why not?
SECRETARY FOR WORKS: Mr President, our record of the analytical data of Dongjiang water shows that there has been little change in the level of pollutants over the last 10 years, which is, I think, the main area of Members’ concern. The provision of data on a monthly basis or similar frequent basis, in our view does not constitute additional significant or useful information. As I mentioned in the reply, the amount of such data used to analyse the quality of both raw and potable water is very substantial. However, as I said in my main answer, we will review the way in which that data is made available and if we can improve information flow in that area, then we will certainly do so.
PRESIDENT: Rev FUNG, not answered?
REV FUNG CHI-WOOD (in Cantonese): Mr President, in view of the brevity of the information supplied in the past, could the Secretary inform this Council in clearer terms whether he is going to provide detailed test results to this Council soon?
SECRETARY FOR WORKS: Mr President, may I propose to take this matter up outside of the Council. I would certainly be delighted to discuss this directly with the Honourable Member in the light of the data available, and to decide with him what further useful information we can make available.
MR PETER WONG: Mr President, can the Secretary confirm that there are no restricted, confidential or even secret classifications put on such test data?
SECRETARY FOR WORKS: I can confirm that, Mr President.
5464 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 19 July 1995
MR WONG WAI-YIN (in Cantonese): Mr President, does the Secretary know that in recent years many complaints have been received to the effect that potable water being discoloured, and frequently with deposits (I saw many such samples), which made the people worried. Still some people complained that they suffered from some discomfort after drinking the potable water, such as a dry throat or inflammation of the throat. Would the Secretary tell this Council whether the situation is now more serious than it was before? Does it show that the quality of Dongjiang River water has deteriorated to a certain extent in recent years? How does the Government of Hong Kong prepare to improve the situation?
SECRETARY FOR WORKS: Mr President, if I can reply to the last part of the question, first of all, there is no evidence over 10 years to show that the quality of raw water obtained from the Dongjiang River has deteriorated.
There have been consumer complaints on discoloured water. These are not related to the quality of the Dongjiang water, as all raw water is treated to comply with the guidelines for drinking water quality promulgated by the WHO. I am quite sure that the quality of potable water as delivered to buildings which are used for residential purposes is of the appropriate quality.
Indeed there was recently an independent university study which confirmed by tests throughout the territory, that the quality of potable water delivered to buildings used for residential purposes in the territory is of the appropriate quality.
The main cause of discolouration is due to corrosion within the consumers’ plumbing systems or storage systems within the residential buildings blocks. These systems mostly use unlined galvanized steel pipes. From December 1995, that is, December this year, the use of unlined galvanized steel pipes will be banned for all new plumbing proposals, and we hope that the discoloured water problem will gradually phase out in the course of time.
MR LEE WING-TAT (in Cantonese): Mr President, according to what the Secretary said, unlined galvanized steel pipes would be banned by law for new buildings to delivered potable water. This way will no doubt in the long run prevent discolouration of water and deposits appearing in water in new buildings. However, could I ask the Secretary what plan does the Administration have to replace the unlined galvanized steel pipes in the 700 000 to 800 000 residential units in old buildings throughout the territory, so that all people can have water delivered by pipes that meet the provision of the law?
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 19 July 1995 5465 PRESIDENT: Secretary, do you have the answer?
SECRETARY FOR WORKS: Mr President, under the Water Supplies Ordinance, the Water Supplies Department is responsible for the quality of water up to residential buildings. They are required to approve installations inside the building. It is, however, for the building owners and occupants themselves to ensure that the distribution system inside their buildings does enable the quality of water as delivered to the building to be carried through the building’s supply system to the consumers’ individual taps. We believe that individual owners will take advantage of opportunities to retro-fit supply systems in the private sector. These retro-fitting systems are available but I am afraid it is for the individual owners themselves to ensure that their own system inside the distribution building is of the highest possible quality.
Legislation Regarding Legal Services
5. MR JIMMY McGREGOR asked: The Attonery General informed the Hong Kong Democratic Foundation at a recent meeting that he expected to receive all the relevant responses on the Consultation Paper on Legal Services, and to have them collated, by the end of this year. In this regard, will the Government inform this Council when the Government expects to present any legislation that is necessary in this matter to this Council for consideration?
ATTORNEY GENERAL: Mr President, the consultation exercise is still in progress. When that exercise is completed, the Administration will have to evaluate all the responses from the community and decide whether any changes in respect of legal services are needed. Only after that decision is made will we know whether legislation is needed. I hope, however, that, if it is required, the legislation will be introduced some time in 1996.
MR JIMMY McGREGOR: Mr President, would the Government agree that the accessibility and affordability of legal services could be significantly improved by the expansion of the role of the Small Claims Tribunal, among other things, through increasing the ceiling on the value of claims over which it has jurisdiction by an amount substantially in excess of the rate of inflation since this ceiling was last amended, and will the Government undertake to implement such action at the earliest opportunity and before the consultation is completed?
5466 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 19 July 1995
ATTORNEY GENERAL: I will certainly convey those sentiments, Mr President, to the Chief Justice and the Judiciary Administrator.
MISS EMILY LAU (in Cantonese): Mr President, will the Attorney General tell this Council the number of representations the Administration has received so far in response to this consultation paper? Does it reflect enthusiastic response by the public, or the poor understanding by the public of the very complicated proposals contained in this consultation paper?
ATTORNEY GENERAL: Mr President, as of yesterday, we had received 52 written responses, of these, 22 were from groups and institutions. In addition, feedback has been received at meetings and through radio phone-in programmes and through speeches. I should add that we are now conducting a public opinion survey aimed at obtaining an even wider spread of opinion in respect of the Consultation Paper. We have been very gratified with the volume of responses and indeed the depth of those responses － many thoughtful comments from not only groups and institutions but from individuals.
MR JIMMY McGREGOR: Mr President, although in the Consultation Paper on Legal Services the Government has proposed the problem of touting and commission paying in respect of conveyancing be reviewed in 12 months’ time, in view of recent media reports that lawyers acknowledge this is rife and have described it as like a full-blown cancer, would the Government now agree to pursue this issue separately as a matter of urgency and, if necessary, before the consultation exercise is completed?
ATTORNEY GENERAL: Mr President, Mr McGREGOR is quite right to draw attention to a matter of grave public concern over the level of touting and commission taking. It is something that I take very seriously indeed, as do the leaders of the Bar and the Law Society, and I have to say, the Commissioner of the Independent Commission Against Corruption. We have been holding regular meetings to address a whole range of practical measures aimed at eradicating these evils － evils which drive up the cost of legal services, deprive members of the community of getting proper legal services and frequently pave the way for more serious activities of a criminal nature.
One of the objects of the consultation exercise was to get feedback from members of the public about their experiences in respect of touting and commission taking. We have had some responses on that. I can assure the Honourable Member that we take this matter very seriously and will do all that we can to eradicate it.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 19 July 1995 5467 Professional Liability in the Medical and Construction Professions
6. DR SAMUEL WONG asked: It is learnt that the Government is proposing to make the Authorized Persons in charge of a construction project criminally responsible, over and above their present professional liability, for deaths arising from lapses in safety on construction sites which total about 75 deaths per year, representing a risk probability of about 0.125% per construction manual worker. Figures released recently by the infection control unit of the Queen Mary Hospital indicate that lapses in safety or hygiene in hospitals have resulted in about 8% of patients contracting a hospital-acquired infection which may lead to several thousand deaths per year. As the safety risk of hospital patients dying from hospital-acquired infections is several times higher than that of construction workers dying from construction site accidents, will the Government inform this Council whether consideration will also be given to making the doctors in charge criminally responsible for deaths arising from hospital-acquired infections, over and above their present professional liability; if not, why is professional liability regarded as sufficient in the medical profession and not in the much less risky field of the construction profession?
SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS: Mr President, I would first like to point out that we are not comparing like with like when we talk about hospital acquired infections (HAIs) and construction site accidents. I am advised that HAIs in Hong Kong are generally not due to lapses in safety or hygiene in hospitals. They are attributable principally to the following reasons:
(a) First, the immunity defences of many patients are already weakened by their pre-existing illnesses which may make them particularly susceptible to infections.
(b) Second, many aspects of medical care require the use of invasive techniques for diagnoses, monitoring and therapy. These techniques may result in a higher probability of infection among hospitalized patients when compared with normal persons, despite the greatest care exercised by medical personnel.
As there are many factors leading to HAIs, it is difficult, if ever possible, to pinpoint the cause of the infection to be the negligence of the attending doctor. However, I am advised that in the course of treating patients, medical professionals are not immune from criminal liabilities. If a doctor causes death by recklessness, he may be liable for manslaughter, in addition to civil and professional liabilities.
5468 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 19 July 1995
In the case of construction sites, the consequences of an accident, for example a building collapse, may be disastrous and massive. We have seen this in Hong Kong and more recently, very dramatically elsewhere.
Though much has been done in recent years to promote industrial safety, the construction industry has remained a major area of concern for the Government and community. The industry employs less than 8% of the total industry workforce, but it consistently accounts for more than one third of all industrial accidents. There is a clear and urgent need for strengthening supervision at construction sites and the public expects it.
It is not the intention of Government to make Authorized Persons (APs) or Registered Structural Engineers (RSEs) criminally responsible for deaths arising from construction site accidents. In asking his question, I believe Dr the Honourable Samuel WONG is referring to the Buildings (Amendment) (No. 2) Bill 1995. The Government’s main objective in the Bill is to strengthen safety assurance at construction and demolition sites. APs, RSEs and Registered Contractors are now already required under the law to provide supervision but it has not been satisfactory as there is inadequate sanction. One of the proposals of the Bill is aimed to clarify how all concerned, including APs and RSEs, will maintain a proper level of supervision during the construction or demolition process and to provide sanctions for failure. The level of supervision to be required will normally be prescribed in a supervision plan to be approved by the Building Authority.
It is not unreasonable that a person who fails to fulfil his duties and thereby puts other people’s lives at risk should bear criminal liability. Criminal offences are already provided under the existing Buildings Ordinance against certain misconduct committed by APs and RSEs, such as deviation from approved building plans and failure to notify the Building Authority of contraventions to the Buildings Ordinance. Penalties vary with different offences, and range from a fine of $2,000 and imprisonment for six months to a fine of $250,000 and imprisonment for three years. They were put into the law to ensure adequate protection of public safety.
DR SAMUEL WONG: Mr President, in his reply, the Secretary for Planning, Environment and Lands said that one of the proposals of the Buildings (Amendment) (No. 2) Bill 1995 is aimed to clarify how APs and RSEs will maintain a proper level of supervision during the construction or demolition process of buildings, and that level of supervision to be required will normally be prescribed in a supervision plan to be approved by the Building Authority. Did he mean that the number of hours in a day and the number of days in a week these professionals are to be personally stationed at the site would be prescribed precisely in a supervision plan?
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 19 July 1995 5469
SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS: Mr President, our intention is first of all that the APs or RSEs should maintain an adequate level of supervision and make such inspections as may be necessary. The supervision plan is to be prepared by the AP or RSE in which he will propose to the Building Authority his strategy as to how the works are to be supervised. Our intention is also to require the building owner, AP or RSE to appoint technically competent persons to assist them to supervise the building works, as well as requiring the registered contractor to appoint technically competent persons to give continuous supervision on each of the sites for which they are appointed to carry out the works. So, in a nutshell, the supervision plan and the details it contains will have to first come from the AP or RSE for the approval of the Building Authority, and I believe consultation and discussion as each case may require will be taken.
MR EDWARD HO: Mr President, referring to the reply of the Secretary when he said that there was inadequate sanction for APs to provide supervision, will he please inform this Council:
(1) how many projects have been undertaken by APs in the last 10 years, and
(2) how many cases there were in the same period when negligence in supervision as directly required by APs, has led to deaths arising from construction sites, and on which the Government was prevented from successful prosecution due to inadequacy in the law?
PRESIDENT: Secretary, are you able to answer?
SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS: Mr President, Mr HO has asked for rather detailed statistics. I will be very happy to provide them in writing. (Annex III)
MR RONALD ARCULLI: Thank you, Mr President. Would the Secretary agree that in order to improve site safety much more than strengthening supervision at construction sites is required? And, in this context, would the Administration be prepared to implement a compulsory safety induction course for all construction workers for which they will be issued either a card or a certificate prior to their being employed for work at construction sites?
5470 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 19 July 1995
SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS: Mr President, the Industrial Safety Council and the construction industry have always been in consultation with each other with the aim of promoting further construction site and industrial safety. I will pass Mr ARCULLI’s suggestion to them for consideration.
DR LEONG CHE-HUNG: Thank you, Mr President. It would not be right for a doctor to stand up to defend members of his profession and I therefore welcome the Secretary’s comments concerning the fact that medical professionals are not immune from criminal liability due to negligence.
Is the Government aware that many cases of hospital-acquired infection that produce mortality and morbidity are the result of bacteria that have developed resistance to almost all known antibiotics as a result of mutational changes in the structure of these bacteria and that these bacteria are prevalent in hospitals and are therefore difficult to eradicate? And can the Administration inform this Council what percentage, out of the reported 8%, of patients who have contracted HAIs in Queen Mary Hospital is due to these antibiotic-resistant bacteria?
SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS: Mr President, could I just say very briefly that my reply to the first part of Dr LEONG’s question is: Yes, we are aware that the problem is basically due to reasons other than what the doctors can do. But could I take this juncture to supply Members with some information in response to Dr LEONG’s second part of the question.
The Queen Mary Hospital recently undertook a survey and found out that the prevalence rate for HAIs in Queen Mary Hospital is 7.7%. In the United Kingdom, it is well over 9%. And in some other countries, developing countries, it is well over 20%. And therefore, Hong Kong has a rather low HAI prevalence rate and much of that is actually due to the concerted efforts of hospitals and the Hospital Authority in implementing infection control measures in hospitals.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 19 July 1995 5471 WRITTEN ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
Trade Deficits of Hong Kong
7. MR MARTIN BARROW asked: Hong Kong’s trade deficits (in HK$ billion) have increased as follows:
1993 1994 %change 1994 1995 (Jan-Apr)
%change
Deficit 26.3 80.7 +206% 24.4 56.9 +133%
With the deficit in 1994 having more than trebled than that in 1993 and again more than doubled during the first four months in 1995 as compared with that in the corresponding period in 1994, will the Government inform this Council of the reasons for this trend and the implications for the territory’s economy?
SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES: Mr President, the Hong Kong economy indeed experienced a deterioration in visible trade deficit over the course of 1994 and in the first four months of 1995. The most significant factors leading to this deterioration were a sharp rise in import requirements for manufacturing production and infrastructural construction, as well as a greater intake of machinery and equipment for capacity expansion and productivity enhancement. Also, the visible trade deficit situation was exacerbated by changes in external conditions, specifically the global recovery in demand causing an upsurge in world commodity prices, a weakened Hong Kong dollar along with the United States dollar, and high inflation in China, which led to a continued deterioration in the terms of trade (that is, import prices rising faster than export prices) for Hong Kong in recent quarters. Thus the enlargement in visible trade deficit in recent quarters was more a consequence of increased demand for production and investment, rather than one of increased demand for consumption. This should underpin overall economic growth in the coming months, as well as help to raise productive capacity generally.
Also noteworthy is the fact that Hong Kong generally has run a deficit on visible trade, but the invisible trade account has been consistently in surplus. As a result, the combined visible and invisible trade account has maintained an overall surplus, except for some earlier years. In 1994, the surplus on invisible trade was reckoned as again more than enough to offset the visible trade deficit, thus giving a small surplus on the combined account. Although figures on invisible trade for the first few months of 1995 are not yet available, the accelerated growth in visible trade and hence trade-related services, continued surge in transhipment, and steady rise in incoming tourists suggest that a further notable increase in exports of services should have been attained. Accordingly,
5472 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 19 July 1995
the surplus on invisible trade in that period should still be able to offset substantially the deficit on visible trade.
Health Care for Vietnamese Boat People
8. DR LAM KUI-CHUN asked (in Chinese): Regarding the provision of health care for Vietnamese boat people (VBP), will the Administration inform this Council how much money has been spent to date on:
(i) health care provided in VBP detention centres;
(ii) obstetrical care provided in public hospitals; and
(iii) all other health care provided in public hospitals?
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY: Mr President, the total expenditure incurred by the Department of Health on health care for Vietnamese migrants in the detention centres since 1989 is $133 million.
The cumulative charges imposed by the Hospital Authority from 1992-93 to 1994-95 for the provision of obstetrical care and other health care to Vietnamese migrants in public hospitals are estimated to be $1.13 million and $3.86 million respectively. These charges, which are met by the office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees, represent about 2% of the actual cost of the services provided. A breakdown of hospital care figures as between obstetrical and other health care for the years before 1992-93 is not available.
Ex gratia Compensation for Crops
9. MR ALBERT CHAN asked (in Chinese): At present, the Government only grants ex gratia compensation for crops cultivated within a distance of ten metres from the affected structures in “non-development clearances” (NDCs) of structures on agricultural land. The affected farmers generally have expressed great dissatisfaction with the compensation offered by the Government. Some of them even refuse to relocate, thus hampering the clearances. In view of this, the Legislative Council Panel on Planning, Lands and Works has urged the Government to review the existing policy on crop compensation. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 19 July 1995 5473
(a) of the total amount of ex-gratia compensation for the loss of crops arising from NDCs paid in 1994/95; and
(b) whether it has conducted a review of the method of calculating crop compensation for NDCs; if so, what the scope of the review is, what progress has been made; and when the review will be completed?
SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS: Mr President,
(a) The total amount of ex gratia allowance for the loss of crops arising from NDCs paid in 1994-95 is $1.02 million.
(b) A review on the policy on crop compensation in NDCs is underway. Its scope includes the eligibility criteria for crop compensation and the basis for the determination of the clearance area. This is a complex issue. Changes to the method for calculating the ex gratia allowance may affect the timing of NDC programmes, in addition to financial and resources implications.
Car Parks in PSPS Housing Estates
10. MR FREDERICK FUNG asked (in Chinese): With regard to car-parks in Private Sector Participation Scheme housing estates, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) whether the Housing Authority has laid down the proportion of hourly rental spaces, monthly rental spaces and spaces for sale provided in such car-parks; if so, what the proportion is;
(b) if the answer to (a) is in the negative, what measures will be taken to tackle the problem of developers progressively increasing the proportion of hourly rental spaces and spaces for sale in such car-parks in pursuit of profits, resulting in insufficient provision of monthly rental spaces to meet residents’ demand;
(c) of the method used in dealing with speculation in parking spaces in such car parks; and
(d) whether there is any plan to review the present policy of allowing the offer of parking spaces in such car-parks for sale to the public; if so, what the details are and when the review will take place; if not, why not?
5474 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 19 July 1995
SECRETARY FOR HOUSING: Mr President, as with other sites sold by the Government for residential development, the conditions of sale for sites under the Private Sector Participation Scheme (PSPS) contain no restriction on the proportion of private car parking spaces to be sold or leased.
Under the PSPS, private car parking spaces must, however, be used for the parking of private motor vehicles belonging to residents and their visitors. This requirement aims to provide adequate parking spaces for residents. It is not practicable to set a fixed ratio for hourly and monthly parking spaces, or for rental and sale spaces, as the demand in each category is difficult to forecast.
In order to prevent speculation in parking spaces, the following restrictions on disposal have been imposed on all PSPS projects since 1993:
(a) the developer can assign or sublet car parking spaces only to the owners of residential units; and
(b) not more than one parking space may be assigned or sublet to each flat owner.
The Government will review the effectiveness of these restrictions at the end of 1996 when the first project with such restrictions is completed.
Operation of the Medical Council
11. DR CONRAD LAM asked (in Chinese): Is the Government aware of the operation of the Medical Council; if so, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) of the number of complaint cases handled by the Medical Council in each of the past three years;
(b) which are the three types of complaint cases most frequently received, as classified by the nature of complaint; and
(c) whether it is aware of any progress that the Council has made in enhancing its transparency in the past three years?
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 19 July 1995 5475
SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE: Mr President, the Government is fully aware of the operation of the Medical Council of Hong Kong.
(a) During the past three years, that is, in 1992, 1993 and 1994, the Medical Council received a total of 126, 134 and 170 complaint cases respectively.
(b) The three types of complaint cases most frequently received in the past three years, as classified by the nature of the complaint, are as follows:
I. Disregard of professional responsibilities to patients
229
II. Advertising 29 III. Untrue or misleading medical certificates 28
Individual cases of professional misconduct under the category of “Disregard of professional responsibilities to patients” varies from “wrongly advising the patient of the diagnosis or the disease he is suffering from” to “failing to provide a medical report or information on request of patient”.
(c) Over the past few years, the Medical Council has made considerable progress in enhancing the transparency of its work. All its disciplinary inquiries, except for cases where special circumstances pertain, are now open to the public.
Apart from disseminating information of public interest regularly through the media and professional groups, the Council’s representatives will also brief the press on the work and major decisions of the Council as and when necessary.
In addition, information leaflets in both languages on the Medical Council and its processing of public complaints on professional misconduct are also available in the Secretariat of the Medical Council for members of the public.
With regard to complaints, complainants are now given full reasons as far as possible when their complaints have been dismissed.
5476 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 19 July 1995 Student Travel Subsidy Scheme
12. MR ERIC LI asked (in Chinese): As the Student Travel Allowance Scheme aims at subsidizing the traffic expenses of needy students for travelling between home and school, applicants are required to pass a family means test so as to ensure that the subsidy will be given to students who are in genuine need of assistance. In view of this, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) of the reasons why there is an age-limit imposed under the Scheme to deny subsidy to full-time students over the age of 25; and
(b) whether this measure will pose financial problems for full-time students over the age of 25 from low-income families, contrary to the objective of the Scheme?
SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER: Mr President,
(a) The Student Travel Subsidy Scheme (STSS) was introduced as a non-means tested Scheme in October 1988 to replace the former Student Travel Card Scheme (STCS). The objective of the STSS is to provide subsidies to students for part of the cost of trips between home and the place of study and part of the cost of trips for extra-curricular activities. All full-time students up to the first degree level who are under the age of 25 and have to take public transport to school by paying the full fare are eligible to apply. The STSS was revised to become means-tested in 1991 with the other criteria remaining unchanged. The age limit criterion was inherited from the STCS on the assumption that students reaching the age of 25 should, in general, be able to support their own travel expenses.
(b) The Administration has not received any formal complaints that the age limit criterion has posed financial problems to full-time students over the age of 25.
In view of the expansion in tertiary education and the social changes in recent years, the Administration will review, having regard to the objective of the means-tested STSS, whether the age limit criterion should be modified.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 19 July 1995 5477 Neighbourhood Level Community Development Project (NLCDP)
13. MR JAMES TO asked (in Chinese): As the Government is contemplating to recommend to the Executive Council to phase out the “Neighbourhood Level Community Development Project” (NLCDP) service, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) of the staff resources and expenditure involved in the NLCDP service over the past three years;
(b) what organization will take over the community service currently provided under the Project in the catchment areas of some old districts (including Nam Cheong area of Sham Shui Po and Mong Kok South area of Mong Kok) upon the termination of the NLCDP service; and
(c) whether residents of the affected districts will be consulted on the proposal to phase out the NLCDP service?
SECRETARY FOR HOME AFFAIRS: Mr President:
(a) NLCDPs are carried out by non-governmental organizations with full subvention from the Social Welfare Department. For each NLCDP team, the notional staffing comprises 1/5 Social Work Officer, one Assistant Social Work Officer, two Social Work Assistants and one Clerical Assistant. The manpower and financial input for the past three years are as follows:
1992-93 1993-94 1994-95
No. of Teams 52 53 54
Actual
Expenditure ($ million) 38.094 44.344 50.225
(b) A comprehensive range of welfare services are provided throughout the territory including old urban areas in accordance with planning standards based on target population or actual demands. Activities and services for community building are catered for under the District Administration Scheme which is fully implemented in all 18 districts. In view of the above, the Government does not, at this stage, foresee the need for another organization to take over the two pilot NLCDP projects in Nam Cheong and Mongkok South when they will come to an end in three years’ time.
5478 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 19 July 1995
(c) We have held many meetings with the Hong Kong Council of Social Service, the Social Workers’ General Union, NLCDP workers, and residents’ groups to explain to them the reasons for rationalizing the NLCDP service. We have also attended district board meetings to discuss the issue. We have been able to hear many views on the subject. These views will be fully taken into account when the matter is considered by the Executive Council.
Relationship between the Executive and Legislative Councils
14. MR ALLEN LEE asked (in Chinese): Will the Government inform this Council whether it has any draft plan on how to determine the mode of relationship between the Executive and Legislative Councils after the 1995 Legislative Council election, and whether the determination of this mode of the relationship between the two Councils will be dependent upon the outcome of the forthcoming Legislative Council election?
CHIEF SECRETARY: Mr President, at present, we are still considering whether the present mode of relationship between the Executive and Legislative Councils should be changed after the 1995 Legislative Council Election and if so, how. We will not be in a position to make a decision until after the forthcoming Legislative Council Election, and will take all relevant factors into consideration.
Substitute Teachers in Government Schools
15. MR TIK CHI-YUEN asked (in Chinese): Regarding the employment of substitute teachers in government schools in Hong Kong, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) of the proportions of substitute teachers to teaching staff, as well as the respective maximum and average numbers of substitute teachers employed in primary and secondary government schools throughout the territory in each of the past three years; and
(b) whether the current regulations governing the recruitment of teachers will be amended, so that schools may employ fewer substitute teachers?
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 19 July 1995 5479
SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER: Mr President,
(a) The maximum number, average number and proportion of substitute teachers employed in government primary and secondary schools in the Hong Kong Island, Kowloon and New Territories regions to fill vacancies in the past three years are listed below:
(1) Government Primary School
1991-92 1992-93 1993-94
HKI K NT HKI K NT HKI K NT
Maximum No. of
substitute teachers (Note (ii))
Average No. of
substitute teachers (Note (iii))
Proportion (%) of
substitute teachers to teaching staff (Note (iv))
41 45 23 24 37 12 29 44 36 36 40 21 17 34 9 22 35 28 11 7.6 5.9 5.3 6.7 2.6 6.7 6.9 7.3
(2) Government Secondary School
1991-92 1992-93 1993-94
HKI K NT HKI K NT HKI K NT
Maximum No. of
substitute teachers (Note (ii))
Average No. of substitute teachers (Note (iii))
Proportion (%) of
substitute teachers to teaching staff (Note (iv))
Notes
36 44 105 50 40 101 43 55 96
32 35 90 36 34 89 34 44 87 5.9 7.1 9.7 6.8 7.6 9.2 6 10.8 9.2
(i) HKI - Hong Kong Island; K - Kowloon; NT - New Territories
(ii) This refers to the largest number of substitute teachers employed by all government schools in the region during the school year.
(iii) This is the average of the largest number and the smallest number of substitute teachers employed by all government schools in the region during the school year.
(iv) This is calculated by the following formula:
5480 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 19 July 1995
Average number of substitute teachers
Total teaching staff establishment in government schools in the region
(b) There is no need to amend the current regulations for the recruitment of government school teachers which generally follow the civil service appointment rules and procedures. The Education Department has exercised flexibility wherever necessary, for example, mounting additional recruitment exercises in case of a shortfall. The Department will continue to monitor the recruitment situation and introduce further improvements as required.
University Teaching Staff Undertaking Outside Work
16. MISS EMILY LAU asked (in Chinese): Is the Government aware that some of the teaching staff in universities undertake outside work on a part-time basis to earn extra money; if so, will the Government ask the management of the universities concerned to provide the following information:
(a) whether this phenomenon is common in the universities;
(b) what are the procedures and criteria adopted by the university management in considering applications submitted by university teaching staff for permission to undertake outside work;
(c) what information the teaching staff are required to provide to the university management when making such applications;
(d) what areas of outside work are undertaken by university teaching staff; and
(e) what is the highest annual remuneration which a university teaching staff member has received for undertaking outside work in the past three years?
SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER: Mr President, the Government is aware that, subject to the relevant regulations established by individual institutions, academic staff in the University Grants Committee (UGC)-funded institutions are allowed to undertake outside practice. Different institutions adopt slightly different definitions of the term “outside practice”. In general, it refers to the use by a staff member of professional knowledge and skill outside of, or in addition to, their normal duties for reward, including fees, honoraria, retainers and any other remuneration.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 19 July 1995 5481
(a) From the records of the UGC-funded institutions, about 18% of the full-time academic staff engaged in outside work on a regular or ad hoc basis in 1994- 95.
(b) All UGC-funded institutions have established procedures and guidelines governing their staff’s engagement in outside work. Procedures differ slightly. In general, a staff member must seek the permission of the Head of the Department concerned, or in some cases the Head of the institution concerned, to engage in outside practice. The criteria adopted in considering such applications include the requirement that:
(i) the outside practice does not interfere with the normal duties of the staff member and there will be no conflict of interest; and
(ii) the aggregate amount of time spent on outside practice by a staff member should not exceed an average of about one working day per week.
(c) The information which staff applying for outside practice must submit to the management of the institutions generally includes name of the client; nature of the outside work; the number of working hours involved in outside work; the level of remuneration and whether there will be any use of the institution’s facilities.
(d) The areas of outside work undertaken by staff could be grouped into the following three categories:
(i) general educational work such as literary work, examining, authorship of manuscripts, occasional broadcast or televised talks, occasional lectures and seminars and part-time teaching of continuing education courses;
(ii) consultancy and professional practices such as laboratory tests, computer programmes, giving expert professional evidence in legal proceedings, accountancy service and legal service; and
(iii) private clinical practice which includes private patients who are referred for consultation in the teaching hospital and/or those who receive in-patient treatment within the hospital in the private wards, and consultations outside of the hospital usually at the request of a doctor in private practice.
5482 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 19 July 1995
(e) The level of remuneration which staff receive for outside work varies significantly depending on its nature. According to records available, in the past three years, the highest annual remuneration which a member of staff in the UGC-funded institutions received for undertaking outside work was in respect of a clinical academic who earned about $560,000.
Patronage of Accident and Emengency Departments
17. DR HUANG CHEN-YA asked (in Chinese): Will the Government inform this Council:
(a) of the number of patients seeking treatment at the accident and emergency departments of public hospitals, together with the percentages of patients seeking treatment during daytime (8:00 am - 4:00 pm), evening (4:00 pm to midnight) and midnight to early morning (midnight - 8:00 am) respectively in each of the past three years; and
(b) in each of the periods mentioned in (a) above, how many patients required admission or referral to specialist clinics for follow-up; how many were trauma cases and how many were cases that could have been treated in general out-patient departments?
SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE: Mr President, the information requested is summarized below:
1992-93 1993-94 1994-95
Total number of attendance 1 402 451 1 492 637 1 733 040 Number of traumatic cases 276 000 308 100 349 700 Rate of hospital admission 21.7% 21.2% 20%
Rate of referral to specialist clinics (Note 1)
Cases seeking treatment
5.2% 4.6% 3.8%
from 8.00 am to 4.00 pm 41% 41% 41%
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 19 July 1995 5483
1992-93 1993-94 1994-95
Cases seeking treatment
from 4.00 pm to 12.00 am 42% 42% 42%
Cases seeking treatment
from 12.00 am to 8.00 am 17% 17% 17%
Note 1: the declining rate of referral is attributable to initiatives taken by the Hospital Authority to relieve the workload of specialist clinics by providing follow-up treatment at accident and emergency departments for cases that do not require ongoing specialist care.
It is difficult to estimate with accuracy the proportion of accident and emergency cases which could have been treated in general out-patient clinics. From the experience gained in the triage system of all accident and emergency departments in public hospitals, about 10% to 20% of cases could be categorized as non-urgent. However, from the perspective of individual patients, it is understandable that they assume their condition to be of sufficient urgency or severity to warrant immediate medical attention.
Substance Abuse Clinics in Public Hospitals
18. MR WONG WAI-YIN asked (in Chinese): It is learnt that the Hospital Authority is planning to set up “Drug Abuse Centres” in six public hospitals, in view of the worsening problem of drug abuse among young people. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) of the locations of the six “Drug Abuse Centres” mentioned above and when these centres will be established; and
(b) whether “Counselling Centres for Young Drug Abusers” will be set up in these six locations to complement the “Drug Abuse Centres” so as to make the work of these two types of centres more effective; if not, why not?
5484 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 19 July 1995
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY: Mr President, the locations and the commencement dates of the Hospital Authority’s six Substance Abuse Clinics are as follows:
Location Commencement date 1 Kowloon Hospital, Mongkok 1 April 1994
2 Pamela Youde Nethersole Eastern Hospital, Chai Wan
14 February 1995
3 Prince of Wales Hospital, Sha Tin 1 April 1995
4 South Kwai Chung Polyclinic, South Kwai Chung
1 April 1995
5 Queen Mary Hospital, Pokfulam 1 July 1995
6 Tuen Mun Polyclinic, Tuen Mun 14 August 1995
At present, there are two counselling centres which provide services to psychotropic substance abusers, namely PS33 in Tsim Sha Tsui, run by the Hong Kong Christian Service, and Direction in Wan Chai, operated by the Society for the Aid and Rehabilitation of Drug Abusers. The Government is committed to setting up a similar counselling centre in the New Territories. There is, and will continue to be, close co-operation between the Substance Abuse Clinics and the counselling centres, so that their effectiveness can be enhanced.
Dispensing Service by Private Medical Practitioners
19. DR CONRAD LAM asked (in Chinese): As the private medical practitioners in the territory at present dispense medicines directly to patients in addition to giving diagnosis, will the Government inform this Council of the following:
(a) of the reason for adopting such a practice, and how long this practice has been followed;
(b) which advanced countries in Europe and America are still adopting such a practice; and
(c) whether the Government will consider training up a sufficient number of pharmacists capable of providing professional dispensing service to patients so as to improve dispensing service to meet the needs of the community; if so, when such training will be provided; if not, why not?
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 19 July 1995 5485
SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE: Mr President, the dispensing of medicines by private medical practitioners to patients is not unique to Hong Kong and is practised by our neighbours such as Japan and Singapore. Indeed we are not aware of any country which prohibits private medical practitioners by statutory means from dispensing medicines. In countries such as the United Kingdom and United States, separate dispensing of medicines by pharmacists is usually achieved by reimbursing the costs arising from medical consultations and the dispensing of medicines to doctors and pharmacists respectively through an insurance system. Even then, doctors are permitted to dispense medicines to their patients where pharmacists are not easily accessible.
Whilst we are not sure how long the practice of the dispensing of medicines by private medical practitioners has existed in Hong Kong, this one-stop arrangement has worked well for many years. It is convenient to patients and ensures clear accountability for the proper care and safety of patients. However, patients do have the right, if they so wish, to request their doctor to issue prescriptions to be filled by pharmacists. This practice was adopted by the Hong Kong Medical Association as far back as 1981.
Currently, the Chinese University of Hong Kong (CUHK) is offering a three-year Bachelor degree course in Pharmacy. The first batch of 31 students will graduate this year. Whilst the intake level of the Bachelor degree programme will remain at about 30 throughout the 1995-98 triennium, the CUHK plans to introduce a Master of Philosophy programme for Bachelor degree holders in pharmacy from 1996.
Future Development of Land North of Tin Shui Wai
20. MR WONG WAI YIN asked: With the future development of 200 hectares of land in the north of Tin Shui Wai, it is estimated that the population of Yuen Long district (including Tin Shui Wai) will exceed 900 000 by the year 2000. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) whether there is any plan to build a hospital in the Tin Shui Wai area in anticipation of the growth in population; if so, what the timetable of the plan is; if not, why not; and
(b) what measures are currently in place to reinforce the medical services in the area so as to meet the demand of the continuous growth in population?
5486 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 19 July 1995
SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE: Mr President, an overall review, similar to the one carried out in 1992, is currently being conducted by the Hospital Authority to update the projected demand and supply of public hospital beds in the territory. The medical services required to cater for residents in the Yuen Long District, including Tin Shui Wai, will be covered as part of this exercise.
In response to growing patient demand, the Hospital Authority has taken steps in the last few years to enhance the scope of services and specialized facilities offered by the cluster network comprising Tuen Mun Hospital, Pok Oi Hospital and Fanling Hospital. Apart from other improvement measures which might be pursued following the review mentioned above, completion of North District Hospital with 600 beds in mid-1997 will further strengthen the service provision in the northern and western parts of the New Territories.
MOTIONS
MAGISTRATES ORDINANCE
THE CHIEF SECRETARY moved the following motion:
“That the Magistrates (Administrative) (Amendment) Rules 1995, made by the Chief Justice on 29 June 1995, be approved.”
She said: Mr President, I move the motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.
Rule 2 of the Magistrates (Administrative) Rules requires each magistracy to keep a Case Register which contains the particulars of every proceeding or matter put before a magistrate in the form of a book. As the Judiciary has introduced the computerized court recording at the magistracies level, Rule 2 should be amended to enable a case register to be kept in computerized form instead.
The Chief Justice has made the Magistrates (Administrative) Rules 1995. In accordance with section 133 of the Magistrates Ordinance, the Rules now require the approval of this Council by resolution.
Mr President, I beg to move.
Question on the motion proposed, put and agreed to.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 19 July 1995 5487 PROTECTION OF WAGES ON INSOLVENCY ORDINANCE
THE SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER moved the following motion: “That -
(a) with effect from 21 July 1995 (“the effective date”), section 16(2)(f)(i) of the Protection of Wages on Insolvency Ordinance be amended by repealing “$8,000” where it twice occurs and substituting “$24,000”;
(b) the Ordinance as amended by this Resolution shall not apply in respect of a severance payment the liability for payment of which arose before the effective date; and
(c) the Ordinance as in force immediately before the effective date shall apply to a severance payment the liability for payment of which arose before that date as if this Resolution had not been made and passed.”
He said: Mr President, I move the motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.
The purpose of this resolution is to increase the maximum payment from the Protection of Wages on Insolvency Fund in respect of severance payment.
Under the Protection of Wages on Insolvency Ordinance, a person owed arrears of wages, wages in lieu of notice or severance payment by his insolvent employer may apply for ex gratia payment from the Protection of Wages on Insolvency Fund, subject to the maximum limits set out in the Ordinance.
The present coverage of the Fund is as follows:
First, arrears of wages up to $18,000 for services rendered not more than four months prior to the date of application;
Second, wages in lieu of notice up to one month’s wages or $6,000, whichever is less; and
Third, severance payment up to $8,000 plus 50% of any excess entitlement over $8,000 under the Employment Ordinance (Cap. 57).
5488 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 19 July 1995
The coverage in respect of severance payment has not been revised since 1991. Statistics in 1993-94 indicate that it is inadequate as only 16.5% of applicants were able to obtain their full severance payment entitlements and only 47.4% could obtain over 75% of their entitlements. This coverage will further diminish as the overall wage levels continue to rise. There is, therefore, a need to amend the Protection of Wages on Insolvency Ordinance so as to expand the coverage of the Fund relating to severance payment.
We now propose that the maximum coverage in respect of severance payment to be increased from $8,000 plus 50% of any excess entitlements to $24,000 plus 50% of any excess entitlements. This proposed improvement will enable low-income employees, particularly those with a shorter length of service, to obtain a relatively higher percentage of severance payment from the Fund. We estimate that under the proposed coverage, 80% of applicants in 1995-96 and 1996-97 will be able to receive from the Fund for not less than 75% of their severance payment entitlements.
We do not, however, propose to make any changes to the payment ceilings in respect of arrears of wages and wages in lieu of notice for the time being because both of them were substantially increased in 1993. We will review the situation later in the year.
The Fund is currently financed by a levy of $250 on each business registration certificate. The proposal will unlikely have any additional cost impact on employers because the existing levy rate would be enough to cover the increased payments from the Fund.
Both the Labour Advisory Board and the Protection of Wages on Insolvency Fund Board have been consulted on this proposal and given their support to it.
Mr President, I beg to move.
Question on the motion proposed.
MR LEE CHEUK-YAN (in Cantonese): Mr President, the Secretary for Education and Manpower moved a motion to raise the level of severance payment under the Protection of Wages on Insolvency Fund from $8,000 plus 50% of any excess entitlement respectively to $24,000 plus 50% of any excess entitlement. I of course support the motion, but I feel and am disappointed that the revision is insufficient. The Government could have done more for the workers, but it has refrained from doing so.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 19 July 1995 5489
In view of the financial position of the Fund, people feel that the Government is like a miser, guarding jealously the money in the Fund and refusing to part with any of it. At present, the Fund receives about $200 million every year, and pays out some $100 million, that is, there is a yearly surplus. The aggregated surplus is now as much as $780 million. Why does the Government insist on guarding this $780 million and not using any of it to improve the protection for the workers? This is really puzzling. I have to remind Honourable Members that the Fund is the Protection of Wages on Insolvency Fund, and as its name suggests, it ensures that workers get what the labour laws provide only in the event of insolvency and winding up. However, at present, the Fund does not help the workers to get the full amount. What is most disappointing is that the Government has not improved the situation in respect of arrears of wages.
The Secretary just said that the protection level in respect of arrears of wages had remained unchanged since its last revision in 1993. At present the highest level of protection for arrears of wages is $18,000 or four months of wages. According to this scale, if a worker is owed by his employer a full four months of wages, then his monthly protection is only $4,500. Even if he is owed two months, his monthly wage protection is only $9,000. I handled a case recently that involved a garment manufacturing syndicate that owed 200 of its workers two months’ wages. Most of them exceeded the $18,000 level, because two months or more of wages can easily exceed $18,000. As a result, they have not been able to recover in full the money they earned by hard work.
On the other hand, the payment in lieu of notice is at present only $6,000. If the median wage is $8,000, then the payment cannot even reach the median wage level. Therefore, I hope that the Government will put forward another proposal as soon as possible to raise the protection level in respect of arrears of wages from the present $18,000 to $32,000 which is four months of the median wage, and to revise the payment in lieu of notice to $22,500, which is the highest protection level the Government recently proposed for employees on monthly salaries. Further still, I hope that the severance payment will be increased as soon as possible. I would like to reiterate that my proposals will not cost the business sector anything, because the Fund under the Government has a surplus of $780 million. I hope that the Government will put the Fund to the best use, for the protection of workers, and will not just hold and guard the money. Thank you, Mr President.
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MR TAM YIU-CHUNG (in Cantonese): Since the Protection of Wages on Insolvency Fund was set up, the scope of protection has seen continuous improved. However, it still falls short of the expectation of our labour force and trade unions. For example, the ceilings for payments in respect of arrears of wages and payment in lieu of notice, respectively at $18,000 and $6,000, fall behind the current median wage of our workers, which is about $8,000 per month. Therefore I hope that the Government will conduct a review as soon as possible, and that the median wage should be used as the basis for calculation so as to afford the workers greater protection.
Further, the source of the Fund is the business certificate charge of $250; all companies, including self-employed people, irrespective of size have to pay the same fee. Therefore, the General United Association of Small Traders has made a representation to the Complaints Office of the Legislative Council, maintaining it is not fair that their members, who are mostly small traders and self-employed people without any employees, are also required to pay the same levy. Therefore, I would like to take this opportunity to ask the Secretary for Education and Manpower to consider their view.
Mr President, with these remarks, I support the motion.
MR JAMES TIEN (in Cantonese): Mr President, since the Protection of Wages on Insolvency Fund was set up, many employers have been thinking that the Fund should be the responsibility of the Government. At present the Fund gets its income from registration of companies. Just now the Honourable TAM Yiu-chung also mentioned that many small-scale companies are in fact facing difficulties in operation. Though several hundred dollars is a small sum, it does signify the transfer, to the good employers, of the responsibility of bad employers who go insolvent and owe their employees wages. This concept is in anyway unfair. The Government collects huge amount of taxes from the business sector, that is, from the good employers. Under such circumstances, the expenditure incurred in protecting the workers affected by insolvency, being only some $100 million a year, should be borne by the Government.
We will not oppose the proposal of the Honourable LEE Cheuk-yan to adjust the ceiling of $18,000 or four months of wages according to the current inflation rate or even to a higher level. We think that now that there is an aggregated surplus of $780 million in the Protection of Wages on Insolvency Fund, at 10% per annual, the reserves will yield an interest income of $78 million every years, well sufficient to cover the necessary expenditure. We think that it is now high time that the Government should review and stop collecting such levy from all companies every year, until the $780 is completely depleted when other means will be employed to replenish the Fund.
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SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER: Mr President, I take it that the three Members who spoke supported the resolutions in the motion, except that they wish to do something more. I will, of course, reflect carefully upon those suggestions on how to improve further.
But just to illustrate the point that we have, in fact, done a lot in this present proposal. In the review of 1993 we set the limits of the existing levels and at the present time these levels, in fact, are still quite high compared with the last review. For example, in respect of the $18,000 for arrears of wages revised in 1993, the previous level was only $8,000 compared with this present level, and with respect to the $6,000 of wages in lieu of notice, the last revision was only $2,000. So it was a very substantial revision in 1993. But, as I said, we will review these two levels later this year, and I will, of course, fully reflect upon Members’ suggestions on how to make these even more generous.
As regards the $24,000 which is, of course, a very substantial increase on severance payment compared with $8,000 at the present time, this is supported by Members and we will further consider whether in the next review there will be a need for further revisions in the light of the financial position of the Fund. We will, of course, consult the Fund Board carefully on how to reflect upon those further improvements.
I would take exception to Mr TIEN’s point, although, about the business community bearing this cost. The business certificate charge of $250, as the source of the Fund, has been established with the support of this Council. I am sure that this is a matter which has been accepted by the business community for many years. It is meant, of course, to be a cushion against the insolvencies in case of difficulties, and it is decidedly not meant to absolve those businesses insolvent from their liabilities. This is only meant to help those businesses, those workers who have difficulties because of such insolvent situations for the time being. Clearly, the Government, of course, would not wish to see this change because of the Fund having, in fact, a bigger surplus. It is certainly prudent of us to take note of the situation of the Fund and to consider what further improvements are necessary in the light of the present and future situation. And therefore I cannot support the proposal to stop this charging of the business certificate as a source of the funding. But in respect of the other suggestions we will, of course, reflect carefully on how to make further improvements in the light of the present and future financial position of the Fund.
Question on the motion put and agreed to.
5492 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 19 July 1995 TELEVISION ORDINANCE
THE SECRETARY FOR RECREATION AND CULTURE moved the following motion: “That-
(a) the Commercial Television (Advertising) (Amendment) Regulation 1995; and (b) the Television (Programmes) (Amendment) Regulation 1995,
made by the Governor in Council on 20 June 1995 and 27 June 1995 respectively, be approved.”
He said: Mr President, I move the motion standing in my name in the Order Paper.
These two amending Regulations form part of the Administration’s overall review to ensure that existing laws do not infringe press freedom and the right to freedom of expression.
The Commercial Television (Advertising) (Amendment) Regulation 1995 was made by the Governor in Council on 20 June 1995. It removes the power of the Director of Health to pre-censor advertisements for any medical preparations. The scope of the Director of Health’s discretion has been criticized as sweeping and undefined. It also gives the Authority pre-censorship powers that have been removed elsewhere, and creates a disparity in treatment between different media, since no similar restriction is imposed on sound broadcasters and the printed media. There is little justification to retain this Regulation in the Television Ordinance. Following the repeal however, provisions will continue to be made, and be revised if necessary, in the codes of practice issued by the Broadcasting Authority, to guide broadcasters in respect of advertisements on medical preparations, and to protect the public against misleading and unacceptable advertisements in this regard.
The Television (Programmes) (Amendment) Regulation 1995 was made by the Governor in Council on 27 June 1995. It repeals the stipulation that programmes broadcast by the commercial and subscription television licensees shall exclude material which is likely to offend against good taste and decency, mislead or alarm, encourage and incite crime or social disorder, discredit the law or the social institutions or to serve the interest of any foreign political party. This provision is regarded as excessively restrictive and deemed to contain too vague a restriction on freedom of information. In any event, this provision has been superseded by section 33 of the Television Ordinance, introduced in April 1993, which makes it a requirement for the licensees to to broadcast material that is likely to incite hatred against any group of persons by reason of race, nationality, sex or religion, or cause a general breakdown in law
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 19 July 1995 5493
and order, or gravely damage public health or morals. As part of the same section, the Chief Secretary is empowered to apply to the High Court to prevent the broadcast of any programme which she has reason to believe is likely to give rise to the damage outlined above. Similar provisions are also found in Part IIIA of the Telecommunication Ordinance to regulate sound broadcasting. The Administration considers that these provisions already provide a suitable balance between the need to guard against the broadcast of totally unacceptable programming on the other. Although Regulation 4(e) is not explicitly covered in section 33, there are sufficient powers within the present body of television regulations and within codes of practice for programme standards to deal with the broadcast of programmes that serve the interest of any foreign political party. There is, therefore, little justification to retain restrictions on broadcasting contents in the subsidiary legislation.
Mr President, I beg to move.
Question on the motion proposed, put and agreed to.
PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION ORDINANCE
THE SECRETARY FOR THE CIVIL SERVICE moved the following motion:
“That the Third Schedule to the Public Service Commission Ordinance be amended by adding -
“3. Monetary Authority 30 September 1994”.”
He said: Mr President, I move the motion standing in my name on the Order Paper. Section 6(1)(a)-(d) of the Public Service Commission (PSC) Ordinance stipulates, amongst other things, that the Commission shall advise the Governor on the filling of vacancies and the promotion of officers in the public service. This motion proposes to exclude the departmental grades staff in the Monetary Authority (MA) who remain on civil service terms from the purview of the Public Service Commission under section 6(2A) of the PSC Ordinance. The departmental staff include mainly officers of the Bank Examiner and Bank Examination Assistant Grades.
The MA was set up in April 1993 under the Exchange Fund (Amendment) Ordinance, following the re-organization of the then Monetary Affairs Branch. It is accountable to the Financial Secretary who receives advice from the Exchange Fund Advisory Committee. To attract and retain staff with the right experience and expertise, the MA is empowered to employ people on terms different from those in the Government. All serving departmental officers were given the option to resign from the Civil Service and take up MA terms of employment before 30 September 1994. Those who had not opted for MA terms remain working in the Authority as civil servants. As at 30 June 1995, 48 departmental officers had opted for MA terms of employment and the other 78
5494 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 19 July 1995
department officers were still on civil service terms. The option to transfer to MA terms was not available to general or common grades staff. These staff will be transferred back to the Government once the MA has recruited its own staff to replace them.
As a result of the above arrangement, a mixed staff situation now exists in the departmental grades of the MA, under which it is not possible for the PSC to scrutinize promotion exercises of these grades comprising both of civil and non-civil servants. This is because the PSC only has the authority to examine and advise on staff on civil service terms － but not on HKMA terms. Without an overall picture, the Commission is not best placed to determine who are the most meritorious officers. Following the precedent of the Hospital Authority and the Vocational Training Council, we propose that the departmental grade in the MA who remain as civil servant should be excluded from the purview of the Commission. However, matters relating to the conduct and discipline of these staff will continue to be subject to the advice of the Commission.
The MA has drawn up a set of appeal procedures with the Financial Secretary as the final appeal authority to safeguard the interests of staff following the exclusion from the Commission’s purview. The staff concerned have indicated no objection to this arrangement. The PSC has also been consulted and agreed to the proposal.
Mr President, with these remarks, I beg to move.
Question on the motion proposed, put and agreed to.
TRADING FUNDS ORDINANCE
THE SECRETARY FOR ECONOMIC SERVICES moved the following motion: “That with effect from 1 August 1995 -
(a) on the recommendation of the Financial Secretary, the Post Office Trading Fund (the “trading fund”) is established to manage and account for the operation of the government service of the Post Office;
(b) the services the trading fund may provide are those set out in Schedule 1;
(c) the assets set out in Schedule 2 are appropriated to the trading fund on the terms set out in that Schedule;
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 19 July 1995 5495
(d) the net value of fixed assets of $3,001.4 million appropriated to the trading fund are represented in the Capital Investment Fund by $900.4 million as a loan and by $2,101 million as a contribution of trading fund capital;
(e) the loan referred to in paragraph (d) is repayable by 10 equal annual instalments of $90.04 million each, the first instalment being due on 1 August 1996 and subsequent instalments being due on the anniversaries of that date;
(f) loan interest is payable annually in arrears at a rate equal to the average of the best lending rate quoted by the continuing members of the Committee of the Hong Kong Association of Banks.
SCHEDULE 1
[para. (b)]
SERVICES
1. Receiving, collecting, sending, dispatching and delivering postal articles within the meaning of the Post Office Ordinance (Cap. 98).
2. Providing Speedpost and other courier services.
3. Retailing stamps and postal related products through counter outlets and appointed agents.
4. Philatelic services.
5. Remittance services.
6. Other services prescribed by the Acts of the Universal Postal Union.
7. Any ancillary service incidental or conducive to providing any of the services in items 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6, including the services of business reply, express, insurance, post restante, private post office boxes, redirection and registration.
8. Agency services for Government departments, public bodies and public utilities, which are compatible with postal related services.
9. Letting out of accommodation that is not immediately required to provide postal services if the letting out does not affect the provision of postal services.
5496 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 19 July 1995
SCHEDULE 2
[para. (c)]
ASSETS
Item Description Terms
1. Buildings listed in
Schedule 3.
2. All furniture and fixtures, equipment, computer systems and
motor vehicles under the control of
the Post Office as at 31 July 1995, as
set out in the document marked
“Inventory of Furniture, Equipment
and Motor Vehicles of the Post
Office” kept by the Postmaster
General.
3. Capitalized setting up costs.
The buildings are not to be disposed of (other than by letting as specified in item 9 of Schedule 1) without the prior approval of the Financial Secretary.
SCHEDULE 3
[item 1, Sch. 2]
OFFICE BUILDINGS APPROPRIATED TO THE
POST OFFICE TRADING FUND
Name of Post Office Location
Hong Kong and Outlying Islands
1. General Post Office 2 Connaught Place, Central
2. Beaconsfield House G/F, Beaconsfield House, 4 Queen’s Road Central
3. Sai Ying Pun G/F & 1/F, 27 Pokfulam Road
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 19 July 1995 5497
Name of Post Office Location
4. Stanley 2 Wong Ma Kok Road
5. Aberdeen G/F and 1/F, Kam Fung Building, 171 Aberdeen Main Road, Aberdeen
6. Eastern Delivery Office 1/F, Eastern Law Courts Building, 29 Tai On Street, Sai Wan Ho
7. Gloucester Road 1/F, Revenue Tower, 5 Gloucester Road 8. Harbour Building 1/F, Harbour Building, 38 Pier Road
9. Heng Fa Chuen G/F, West Car Park Block, Heng Fa Chuen
10. Morrison Hill G/F, 28 Oi Kwan Road
11. Shau Kei Wan G/F, Perfect Mount Garden, 1 Po Man Street
12. Wan Chai G/F & 2/F, Wu Chung House, 197-213 Queen’s Road East
13. Mui Wo G/F, Mui Wo Government Offices Building, 2 Ngan Kwong Wan Road,
Mui Wo
14. Peng Chau G/F, Government Building, Wing On Side Street, Peng Chau
15. Tai O G/F, Tai O Government Offices Building, Tai O
5498 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 19 July 1995
Name of Post Office Location
Kowloon
16. Kowloon Headquarters M/F, Middle Road Carpark Building, 15 Middle Road
17. Kowloon Central Basement, G/F, M/F, 1/F & 2/F, Kowloon Government Offices
Building, 405 Nathan Road
18. Canton Road G/F, Canton Road Government Offices Building, 393 Canton Road
19. Cheung Sha Wan G/F & 1/F, 650 Cheung Sha Wan Road
20. Kwun Tong G/F, Kwun Tong Government Offices Building, Tung Yan Street
21. Rennie’s Mill Village G/F, Rennie’s Mill Government Offices Building, Section 1,
Rennie’s Mill Village
22. Sham Shui Po G/F & M/F, 55 Un Chau Street 23. International Mail Centre 80 Salisbury Road, Hung Hom
24. Air Mail Centre Tristar Avenue, Hong Kong International Airport
25. Kowloon East Delivery Office G/F - 4/F & 9/F, Kolwoon East Government Offices,
12 Lei Yue Mun Road
26. Airport D38, Departure Hall, 1/F, Hong Kong International Airport
27. Hung Hom Bay G/F, Block 14, Cherry Mansion, Whampoa Garden
28. Tai Kok Tsui G/F, 67 Anchor Street, Tai Kok Tsui
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 19 July 1995 5499
Name of Post Office Location
New Territories
29. San Tin 1A Castle Peak Road, San Tin Section, San Tin
30. Sha Tau Kok G/F, Sha Tau Kok Government Officers Building, Sha Tau Kok
Main Road
31. Yuen Long Delivery Office G/F, 1/F & 2/F, Yuen Long District Branch Office Building,
269 Castle Peak Road, Yuen Long
32. Shek Wu Hui G/F, 112-116 San Fung Avenue, Shek Wu Hui
33. Kam Tin G/F, Kam Tin Government Offices Building, Kam Tin Main Road
34. Tai Po G/F, Tai Po Government Offices Building, Ting Kok Road
(including G/F counter of 200 m2
which was opened on 19 July 1993)
35. Fanling G/F, Fanling Government Offices Building, 3 Pik Fung Road, Fanling
36. Fo Tan G/F, Shatin Galleria, 18-24 Shan Mei Street
37. Sai Kung G/F, Sai Kung Government Offices Building, 34 Chan Man Street,
Sai Kung
38. Tsuen Wan 1/F & 10/F, Tsuen Wan Government Offices, 38 Sai Lau Kok Road
39. Tsuen Wan West Bayview Garden, 633 Castle Peak Road”
5500 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 19 July 1995
He said: Mr President, I move the motion standing in my name on the Order Paper. Section 3(1) of the Trading Funds Ordinance provides that the Legislative Council may, on the recommendation of the Financial Secretary, by resolution establish a trading fund. My motion seeks to establish the Post Office Trading Fund with effect from 1 August 1995.
The Hong Kong Post Office was first established over 150 years ago, since then its services have grown with Hong Kong and the Post Office plays an important role in the business and community life of the territory. Despite the advent of the fax machine and new telecommunications technologies, postal traffic in Hong Kong has not only demolished but in fact has been growing at around 6% per annum.
During the past 10 years, the volume of mail traffic handled by the Post Office has doubled, from 575 million items in 1985-86 to 1 147 million items in 1994-95. The staff establishment of the Post Office on the other hand has increased during this period by only 23%. This significant gap has been filled by continued productivity improvements, through investment in automation and through mechanization.
Notwithstanding these impressive productivity gains, the Post Office has found it increasingly difficult to cope with rapid increases in demand while, at the same time, maintaining service standards. Although total revenues from the Post Office’s various businesses have been more than adequate to cover operating costs and even provide a modest surplus, under normal departmental funding arrangements the Post Office does not have the flexibility to direct the surplus to meet operating expenses and improve services. As a result, standards of services have had to be reduced in some areas.
In the light of this problem, we have carried out a detailed review of postal policy and operation. This review has concluded, amongst other things, that the best way to improve the performance of the Post Office is to convert it to a trading fund operation, so that it can have the ability to optimize its revenues and direct those revenues to providing better services to the public.
A trading fund operation also accords with one of the objectives adopted by the Universal Postal Union which is that all postal administrations should seek to secure the administrative and financial management flexibility to support a commercial style of management responsive to customer demands.
The trading fund will bring a number of important benefits to the Post Office.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 19 July 1995 5501
First, the Post Office will be able to enjoy greater flexibility of operation and deploy more commercially-orientated approaches to the conduct and development of the business. As a result, it will be able to respond more effectively to changes in technology, customer demands and market conditions.
Secondly, it will be able to expand its more profitable services to the benefit of customers while, at the same time, using the surpluses to improve productivity, enhance efficiency and customer service and, where necessary, support and improve those loss-making but essential services.
Thirdly and most importantly, the trading fund operation will increase the transparency and public accountability of the Post Office. Each year, the Postmaster General will be required to publish an up-to-date Business Plan for the coming financial year, together with a Corporate Plan setting out his service targets and expenditure proposals for the next five years. In addition, the accounts of the trading fund will be subject to annual inspection by the Director of Audit.
To ensure that the trading fund will exercise its increased flexibility responsibly, a regulatory framework will be established under which the Secretary for Economic Services will become the regulator of postal services. The Secretary will be responsible for formulating postal policy objectives, approving the corporate and Business Plans of the Post Office, setting performance targets, vetting proposals for postage rate increases, and tabling in the Legislative Council an annual report on the operation and performance of the trading fund.
Minimum performance standards, binding on the Postmaster General, will be set for all major postal services and specified in the Corporate and Business Plans of the trading fund. This will ensure that a high quality of service is provided irrespective of the profitability of the services.
Trading fund operation will also bring substantial benefits to customers because the Post Office will have more flexibility to take forward a number of new initiatives which have had to be put in abeyance pending the availability of adequate funding resources. These initiatives include opening more post offices to meet the needs of new housing developments, wider use of computers and automation to speed up counter services, extension of door-to door parcel delivery service to the New Territories, and expansion of Speedpost and philatelic services. These improvements will benefit all sectors of the community.
5502 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 19 July 1995
To impose the requisite degree of commercial discipline, the Trading Funds Ordinance requires all trading funds to manage their accounts prudently and achieve a reasonable rate of return on the public assets vested in it. The projected rates of return of the Post Office Trading Fund in the next four years are 6.5%, 7.2%, 6.8%, and 8.3% respectively. I should emphasize that the Government’s postal policy is － and will continue to be － to provide an efficient and reliable postal service at reasonable and affordable prices to all users. To achieve this policy objective, we undertake that future postage rate increases will be kept broadly in line with inflation as in the past before trading fund operation.
Mr President, I would like to take this opportunity to thank Members of the Subcommittee set up to study the Post Office Trading Fund Resolution for their support of the resolution and their time and the many constructive comments they gave to us. Specifically, the Subcommittee has requested that the Administration undertakes to:
- prepare a proposal on how to involve Members in monitoring the general operation of the Post Office Trading Fund before the end of 1995;
- to complete a review on the framework agreement of the trading fund in the next few months to find out the most suitable method for determining the trading fund’s target rate of return; and
- to study the feasibility and desirability of specifying the postal charges by regulations.
The Administration will work with Members to examine the scope of a mechanism whereby Members and the public will be able to monitor the performance of the Post Office Trading Fund more easily and efficiently. As in the recent case of the Office of the Telecommunications Authority Trading Fund, we undertake to discuss the target rate of return with Members in the light of the Post Office Trading Fund’s actual operational experience. We are also prepared to consider possible changes to the present system for approving some postal fees and charges. To this end, I undertake to put up proposals for consideration by the Panel on Economic Services and Public Utilities during the next six months. As there are no further proposals to amend postage charge during the financial year 1995-1996, there will be ample time to consider these issues after the creation of the Post Office Trading Fund on 1 August 1995.
Finally, Mr President, I would like to emphasize once again that our primary objective in proposing that the Post Office be moved on to trading fund operation is to provide it with the operational flexibility it needs to optimize the use of resources and provide an efficient and modern postal service to meet and support Hong Kong’s continued economic development. The Hong Kong Post Office has a long and distinguished history. Throughout the years, it has provided us with an essential service, efficiently and without fuss. Postal
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 19 July 1995 5503
charges in Hong Kong are among the lowest in the industrialized world; our postmen amongst the most efficient, dedicated and hardworking. I am convinced that, when operating as a trading fund, the Post Office will be able to build strongly on its already excellent track record as one of the world’s leading postal administrations.
Mr President, I beg to move.
Question on the motion proposed.
MR PETER WONG: Mr President, as Chairman of the Subcommittee set up to study the Post Office Trading Fund Resolution, I would like to report briefly on our work to facilitate the Council’s decision. At the Subcommittee’s meeting held on 11 July, three Members voted three to one to support the establishment of the Post Office Trading Fund commencing 1 August with one reserving his position. This decision is based on our recognition of the need to give the Post Office more operational flexibility so that it can optimize its resources to provide an efficient and modern postal service to the people of Hong Kong. We accept that moving the Post Office to trading fund operation is one of the major steps towards achieving this objective, and there is some urgency for taking such a step in order not to jeopardize the new developments of the Post Office such as the opening of more branches in the new towns and the organization of a large-scale international philatelic exhibition in 1997.
While supporting the objective of the resolution, the Subcommittee is nevertheless concerned about how this Council could enhance its control over the trading fund when the appropriation of funds for the Post Office is no longer subject to the scrutiny of the Finance Committee. Given that postal service is a labour-intensive type of operation, we also have reservations about the use of average net fixed assets as the basis for calculating the target rate of return for the trading fund, instead of using business turnover as in the past. In addition, we all consider that the setting of the target rate of return at 12% on average net fixed assets is too high and may affect the Post Office’s ability to provide service at reasonable and affordable prices. We suggest serious consideration be given to regulating the revision of postage rates by subsidiary legislation.
To address these concerns, we have requested the Administration to:
- prepare a proposal on how to involve Members in monitoring the general operation of the Post Office Trading Fund;
- complete a review on the framework agreement of the trading fund to find out the most suitable method for determining the trading fund’s target rate of return; and
5504 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 19 July 1995
- study the feasibility and desirability of specifying the postal charges by regulations.
I am pleased that the Secretary for Economic Services has accepted all our suggestions and undertaken to revert to us with detailed proposals within six months after establishment of the trading fund. These undertakings, together with the Postmaster General’s assurance to the Subcommittee that there will not be any redundancies after the trading fund operation, should have clarified the doubts of Members on this resolution.
Therefore, Mr President, I support the motion moved by the Secretary for Economic Services.
MR STEVEN POON: Mr President, I rise to support the motion to establish the Post Office Trading Fund. The postal service is one of the oldest forms of public communication. Over the years, as communication and transport technologies advance, government postal services all over the world are under pressure to improve their capabilities to meet the modern needs of the public and the high efficiency demanded by consumers.
Apart from having to satisfy the increased expectations of the customers, the Post Office is under severe competition from commercial delivery services. In order for the Post Office to compete in the market place and to meet the requirements of the general public, it has to be provided with flexibility and up-to-date facilities to take advantage of and to react to the latest technologies available. The resolution in question is to do just that.
The idea of a trading fund is relatively new in our Administration. When a government department is given the responsibility to be accountable for the performance of a trading fund, it is expected to earn a return on the operation. The question of how much the real return should be is often a debatable issue. Mr President, I have spent almost the whole of my career in a business of which its rate of return is regulated. I guess I am qualified to say just a few words.
A trading fund uses public money to provide a service to a particular sector of the public. In determining the charges to be made to those who use the service, the principle should be to recover the cost of providing the service, and no more. If the trading fund revenue exceeds the cost of providing the service, the service user will be subsidizing the general public and vice versa. Unless there are some taxation reasons or reasons to suppress demand, this type of subsidy cannot be justified.
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The definition of cost of service is the cost to the Government in providing the service, which shall include the cost of money. As the cost of money to the Government relates generally to the rates of interest which currently stand at around the 8% region, I cannot see how the Administration can justifiably come to the conclusion that the Post Office Trading Fund should have a target rate of return of 12%. The Administration explained that the target rate of return is in accordance with the methodology recommended by the consultants whose proposals were put forward in a report on review of government utilities. I am of the opinion that the consultants’ report has put too much emphasis on profitability and has given too little consideration to public finance.
Mr President, I do not wish to claim monopoly of wisdom, and indeed experience can sometimes be misused as an excuse of ignorance. I am prepared to give the Administration the benefit of a second look at the matter. I suggest the Administration gives the question of the rate of return a further review in the near future.
As to the Post Office Trading Fund, the Administration has said that, although the target rate of return is 12%, such a target would not be achieved in the next four years. The Administration has committed that it would not, because of the target rate of return, implement postal rate increases beyond the rates of inflation. Furthermore, the Administration would consider requiring postage rates for basic services to be subject to the approval of the Executive Council and specified in regulations. With these assurances, I can see no reason for not supporting the resolution. Rejecting or deferring the trading fund proposal in order to continue arguing on the target rate of return is like throwing out the baby with the bath water. It would be unwise of us not to recognize the advantages of early establishment of the trading fund.
Mr President, I support the motion to establish the Post Office Trading Fund, and suggest that the Administration should review the target rate of return during the course of its operation. Thank you.
MR LEE WING-TAT (in Cantonese): Mr President, I would like to speak on the Post Office Trading Fund. Firstly, I find the whole process of discussion and debate by the Legislative Council on the trading fund rather unsatisfactory because the Legislative Council has comparatively little experience in dealing with trading funds. As far as I can remember, this Council has seen the passage of only one or two resolutions in relation to trading funds. Certainly, of considerable significance is the trading fund relating to a charging scheme for sewage services on which I recall taking part in the discussion. Despite the limited time frame, we held six or seven meetings, spending 10-plus hours scrutinizing the objective, business plan and agreement framework of the trading fund. As for this resolution, the Secretary for Economic Services did not introduce it until late June, that is, the run-up to the end of the current legislative session, thereby leaving barely enough time for Legislative Council
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Members to scrutinize the proposed trading fund approach. Although in principle, we may not have a heated debated and controversy, we should not forget that this Council’s passage of this resolution on the trading fund represents in an objective sense our concurrent endorsement of everything arising from the trading fund including the future business plan and agreement framework, which involve plenty of calculations in relation to asset transfer and internal rate of return, as well as the development of the Post Office and postal services. As responsible Members, we should scrutinize each item in detail before giving formal endorsement to the entire resolution. Yet, we concur that due to the limited time frame, to give the resolution an exhaustive discussion within the current session is out of question. What we could only do was to rely on Mr Peter WONG who chaired a subcommittee meeting to scrutinize a trading fund scheme of such an enormous scale and of such importance. (Many Members failed to attend that meeting. As the current session is drawing to a close, it is not uncommon to see meetings clashing with one another and as a result, only four to five Members turned up at that meeting). I am therefore not too happy with such an arrangement.
Mr President, I would like to speak on various other points. Firstly, regarding the existing postal services, I agree that the establishment of a trading fund can enable the Post Office to take forward a number of new initiatives which have to be shelved as a result of allocation of resources. The Hong Kong Government, by way of the annual resource allocation exercise, allocates to each department resources to meet the need for the year concerned including additional funds for the provision of new services. I agree that the Post Office Trading Fund can in principle serve this purpose. In this way, the Post Office can, by taking into consideration its needs, direct its surpluses to improve more services including the implementation of automation and computerization; and take more advanced and innovative initiatives with respect to some commercially more profitable services. I cannot agree with this point more.
However, we have to bear in mind that the existing services provided by the Post Office are primarily classified into two kinds and one of them is similar in nature to commercial services and it includes Speedpost and other international courier services. These services bring considerable profits and in principle, they can compete with commercial ones. Regarding this kind of services, I do not share Mr Steven POON’s view that the principle should be no more than recovering the cost of providing the services. There is no need, in my opinion, for the Government to confine itself to the principle of recovery of cost. Instead, it has every reason and need to earn its deserved profits through the provision of such commercial services.
The other kind relates to postal services provided to the general public. The Postmaster General, the Secretary for Economic Services and the Secretary for the Treasury certainly have told me many times that only a small number of people write letters nowadays. Maybe the days of writing letters to pen pals and love letters to sweethearts as in the ‘50s and ‘60s are gone. To convey your loving affection, a telephone call or a fax message may be an easier way to serve
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your purpose. However, we make no question of the fact that still a handsome number of people communicate through the postal services. Whilst we can make a call to convey our love for our wives and girlfriends, we may still like to occasionally write them a few lines just to say “I love you”. Therefore, the demand for such services should not be denied. What we and the general public concern most is whether the internal rate of return will be set too high in respect of such services.
Over the past two years, we debated on numerous occassions on what rate of return the Government should set for the provision of services. Former Secretary for the Treasury, Mr Donald TSANG, also conducted a very comprehensive review on how the internal rate of return should be determined for public utilities and whether other public services should be provided on the basis of recovering cost. In fact, the Government has different criteria for determining different kinds of charges. In this connection, I and other Members of the Democratic Party are concerned about whether the rates of return for the provision of various services are set too high.
In his speech, the Secretary for Economic Services undertook to allocate some time during the next six months to discuss with Members of the Legislative Council on how to involve this Council in determining the details in relation to the trading fund. I appreciate his thoughts as in this way we have a chance to sit down and discuss. Even if the trading fund is established, we can still go into its finer details and try to find out the method for determining such details that is acceptable to all. However, his proposal only indicated some possibilities without making reference to how to involve Members in the entire agreement framework and whether it is necessary to involve Members in determining postal charges. I urge the Secretary for Economic Services to address these questions with a positive attitude. We are not sure if we still have the right to amend the details regarding the trading fund once this resolution is passed. However, if a number of Members have views on the setting of the internal rate of return at 12% and consider that Members should have the right to have a say in determining the rate of return, I wish that the Secretary for Economic Services can readily accept our good advice. What is more, the views expressed do not come from individual party but are the views of the majority of Members. Therefore, I hope that we will be given ample time for discussion in the next six months. Moreover, I hope that once this resolution is passed, the trading fund can comes into operation as soon as possible. I urge the Secretary for Economic Services to honour his promise by holding discussion with the Legislative Council Members as soon as possible in the next six months. Thank you, Mr President.
MR FRED LI (in Cantonese): Mr President, I took part in one of the meetings of the sub committee. At that meeting, three members expressed support. Just now the Honourable Peter WONG said that one Member had reservations, and that Member was me. I represented the Democratic Party and have been looking at the Post Office Trading Fund issue from a very cautious angle. In
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the recent week, I was in close contact with officers of the Economic Services Branch. I appreciate the efforts put in by the officers of the Economic Services Branch to discuss in better details with us, Members who have these doubts, with a view to getting a compromise and an idea how both sides should proceed. I have changed, from having reservations at the beginning, gradually to wishing to delay and shelve this motion, to starting to accept the views of the Government now. I feel that to me, this is an invaluable experience. I support the views as put forward by the Honourable Steven POON just now, and it is not what the Honourable LEE Wing-tat had said.
The Government attaches great importance to profitability in setting the level of charges, I feel that this is greatly different from the views of the Democratic Party. I recall that the Honourable Donald TSANG, as the Secretary for the Treasury, once stressed that when the Government took out a sum of money, there had to be a certain profit in return, just like doing business, because there was no reason to give a subsidy. He often made comparison with listed companies and commercial firms on the market, claiming that if there was no profit, the thing might as well be run by a private contractor. I take exception to this kind of mentality and principle.
The Democratic Party feels very strongly about setting the rate of return at 12%. If the Secretary for Economic Services continues to say that there must be a 12% rate of return, I will certainly stand up to object. After discussions, we the Democratic Party are concerned about several points, as covered by Mr LEE Wing-tat. Regarding the way of calculating the rate of return, it has been changed from the previous base of operating costs to the present base of net assets. In fact, I do not think that postal services should be dealt with in the “across the board” manner. The party concerned has never had a very good reason to convince me why net assets have to be used as the base for calculation, following the general practice of the whole government. Postal services are different, there is distinct differences say, from the services of Water Supplies Department.
The mechanism for charge increase is also the issue we are most concerned about. It is because at present the Legislative Council plays no role at all in this respect. Even before the Trading Fund, this Council has no right to scrutinize postage increase. The present practice is for the Postmaster General to propose an increase which, if not opposed by the Economic Services Branch, will be put to the Executive Council, and that, basically, means approval. With the Trading Fund now, the Post Office can manage its own surpluses in a more flexible way to improve services. This I absolutely support, in particular if as a result of the establishment of the Trading Fund, postal delivery services will be extended to certain rural areas and places in the New Territories that do not at present enjoy such services, more new post offices will be opened in locations that are not sure to bring profits. I think that these are the benefits brought about by the Trading Fund, we and the public will also support them.
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In view of the above reasons, we the Democratic Party have in the recent week or so finally agreed to the establishment of the Trading Fund and to support this resolution. Our biggest expectation is that the officers of the Economic Services Branch will discuss with the new Legislative Council in October this year. There is still time, and as there will not be any more postage increase for the remainder of the year, they should have lots of sincerity to discuss with Legislative Council Members. We see no problem in the rate of return for the first four years; but regarding the 12% for the fifth year, we still feel there is a big problem. What is more, in what way will the rate of return be worked out? Will it be based on net assets or operating costs? At present subsidiary legislation is used, and then will basic charge and non-basic charge be treated differently. On the rate of return again, will there be an aggregated rate of return which will be the combination of the individual rate of return from basic charge and that from non-basic charge? I feel that the above issues have to be further ironed out in future discussions. However, I will not bar the establishment of the Trading Fund which will develop our postal services.
Mr President, with these remarks, I support the motion.
MR ROGER LUK (in Cantonese): Mr President, since the implementation of trading funds, there have appeared in their operation a few technical problems that await further study and interpretation by the Government.
First, rate of return on trading funds is made up of two parts, ie, rate of return without risks and rate of return with risks. Conceptually this is practicable, the problem is how to set the benchmark to define the rate of return with risks. This was discussed by the sub committee of this Council formed to study the Telecommunications Authority Trading Fund. A similar question was also raised in the sub-committee on the present Post Office Trading Fund. Besides, must the rate of return be based on the average net value of fixed assets? Could other indicators be used, such as capital available? These are subjects that warrant our further study.
Second, how do the Legislative Council and the public at large monitor the operation of the trading funds to ensure they are highly effective as they should be? According to existing arrangements, the manager of a trading fund has to submit annual business plans and five-year operation outlines, and the accounts of the trading fund is audited by the Director of Audit every year. Naturally, the transparency and accountability can be further enhanced. For example, the Director of Audit can furnish the department concerned a report on fund management, and he can submit to the Public Accounts Committee a comprehensive report on the management of the trading fund so as to be accountable to the public.
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Third, regarding the procedures for adjustment of fees and charges, the various Government fees and charges are at present adjusted according to different procedures. Some are promulgated after the department has sought the advice of the Governor-in-Council; some are published in the form of subsidiary legislation which needs to be scrutinized by the Legislative Council, in the event this Council does not agree, a resolution can be passed to maintain the original level. With multifarious types of Government fees and charges, the existing different adjustment mechanisms have been created to cope with the different nature and complexity of the fees and charges. However, when operation is switched to one of trading fund, how the departments concerned should further enhance the transparency of their fees and charges adjustment mechanisms is to be reviewed.
I welcome the review on these three aspects, with a report to be tabled in this Council by the end of the year, as promised by the Secretary for Economic Services when he spoke just now on the motion. This pragmatic attitude and positive response are what an open Government should have. Being the Chairman of the Economic Services Panel of this Council, I wish to place on record the amiable and co-operative working relations between the Panel and officers of the Economic Services Branch for the past two years and the support the Branch has had for this Council.
The Post Office Trade Fund is not, as the Honourable LEE Wing-tat alleged, introduced towards the end of the current session. As a matter of fact, a specific introduction was made at the meeting of the Economic Services Panel on 4 April in the conference room of the Post Office. Political parties could have sought clarification from the Economic Services Branch then if they saw problems instead of “see-sawing” now close to the end of the session. I am glad that the Democratic Party has eventually cleared their doubts with the Economic Services Branch and supported the resolution on the trading fund, avoiding another delay of several months.
Mr President, with these remarks, I support the motion.
MR LEE CHEUK-YAN (in Cantonese): Mr President, in discussing the concept regarding the Post Office Trade Fund, or the whole trading fund concept for that matter, many people have said the trading fund is but an accounting system, enabling only flexible management of resources distribution between the Government and government departments. I think that if the aim is to have better flexibility to bring improvements to services as well as to raise efficiency, everybody in Hong Kong will approve. However, once the target rate of return is set at 12%, many people will wonder whether this trading fund thing is purely for flexible management to improve services, or it is a means the Government uses to enable a department to generate more profits, this Post Office Trading Fund in particular contains a profit-sharing scheme with the Government, starting with 70/30, and reaching finally a 50/50 split. Thus the Government’s claim is not convincing. On the one hand, improvements to
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services are promised; on the other, profits earned by the Post Office, instead of being used to improve postal services, have to be shared with the Government. This brings on the Government a bad image, making people wonder what actually is its motive.
In his speech the Secretary for Economic Services said that adjustments to postage would not exceed inflation. This practice of the Government, I am afraid, has all along set a bad example to the private sector. For example, in the present fare increase by the Yaumatei Ferry, they promised that future increases would not follow the inflation. Thus inflation seems to become a line, so long as an increase is within the line, everybody will understand and accept the increase. But I feel that this practice warrants examination. If all Government fees and charges are increased according to inflation, eventually the problem of inflation will keep on getting worse with no improvement in sight. At present the whole community has taken inflation as the No. 1 enemy, and I think it is not enough for the Secretary to simply promise future postage increases will not exceed inflation. On the contrary, all government departments and public utility companies should make it their primary aim to contain inflation. The authorities should not simply said that future postage adjustments will not be more than inflation. Naturally, I am not advocating an “across-the-board” approach to require all charges for postal services to be within a certain level, particularly if mathematics so shows, certain postal services relating to international business services could really warrant slightly bigger increases. The most important thing, in fact, is that anything that will affect people’s livelihood must be controlled very stringently. I am not happy that while all along claiming the target rate of return is 12%, the Government seems to have been saying now that it will suffice if the increase of postage does not exceed inflation. Therefore I hope that during the discussions in this half year, the issues regarding this target rate of return, the profit sharing scheme and the setting of postage can all be properly resolved, giving the public the best. I very much hope that we will not think that there is nothing more to be done after the approval of the trading fund, and thus care no more. However, I have much confidence in Mr Gordon SIU.
Thank you.
SECRETARY FOR ECONOMIC SERVICES: Mr President, first of all, I would like to thank Members for agreeing to support the motion. This agreement will enable the Post Office to go to another stage of its development which, as I have said in my speech, will bring about improvement of services to customers, for example, delivery of parcel services to residents in the New Territories. They will now get it. So your agreement will help us achieve that type of objective.
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Secondly, I thank Members for the points they have made. I have taken careful note of all of them. This morning I have given some undertakings and I shall honour them. If, in fact, the Chairman of the Panel on Economic Services and Public Utilities would agree, I am prepared to start work at the next meeting, and I am confident that we can work out arrangements which will satisfy Members that the setting up of this trading fund will be beneficial to Hong Kong and will also, at the same time, meet the scrutiny of Members.
Thank you, Mr President.
Question on the motion put and agreed to.
INTERPRETATION AND GENERAL CLAUSES ORDINANCE
THE SECRETARY FOR THE TREASURY moved the following motion: “That -
(1) the Betting Duty Ordinance (Cap. 108) be amended in section 8 by repealing “of $1,000” and substituting “at level 3”;
(2) the Betting Duty Regulations (Cap. 108 sub. leg.) be amended in regulation 3(7) by repealing “of $1,000” and substituting “at level 2”;
(3) the Dutiable Commodities Ordinance (Cap. 109) be amended -
(a) in section 6(2) by repealing “$100,000” and substituting “$1,000,000”; (b) in section 13 by repealing “of $5,000” and substituting “at level 5”; (c) in section 21(1) and (2) by repealing “of $5,000” and substituting “at level 5”; (d) in section 25(2) by repealing “of 5,000” and substituting “at level 5”; (e) in section 36(2) by repealing “$5,000” and substituting “$50,000”; (f) in section 46(1) by repealing “$100,000” and substituting “$1,000,000”;
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 19 July 1995 5513 (g) in section 46(2) by repealing “of $10,000” and substituting “at level 6”; (h) in section 58(3) by repealing “of $1,000” and substituting “at level 3”; (i) in section 67(3) by repealing “of $5,000” and substituting “at level 5”;
(4) the Dutiable Commodities Regulations (Cap. 109 sub. leg.) be amended in regulation 104 -
(a) in subregulation (1)(a) by repealing “$50,000” and substituting “$500,000”; (b) in subregulation (1)(b) by repealing “$100,000” and substituting “$1,000,000”; (c) in subregulation (2) by repealing “$50,000” and substituting “$500,000”;
(5) the Dutiable Commodities (Liquor) Regulations (Cap. 109 sub. leg.) be amended -
(a) in regulation 30(1) and (2) by repealing “of $5,000” and substituting “at level 5”;
(b) in regulation 30(3) by repealing “of $2,000” and substituting “at level 4”; (c) in regulation 32(2) by repealing “of $250” and substituting “at level 1”;
(6) the Dutiable Commodities (Marking and Colouring of Hydrocarbon Oil) Regulations (Cap. 109 sub. leg.) be amended -
(a) in regulation 13(1) by repealing “of $5,000” and substituting “at level 5”; (b) in regulation 13(2) by repealing “$100,000” and substituting “$200,000”; (7) the Estate Duty Ordinance (Cap. 111) be amended -
(a) in section 14(17)(a) -
5514 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 19 July 1995 (i) by repealing “of $1,000” and substituting “at level 3”;
(ii) by repealing “$5,000” and substituting “at level 5”;
(b) in section 17(2) and (3) by repealing “of $1,000” and substituting “at level 3”; (c) in section 23(1) by repealing “of $1,000” and substituting “at level 3”;
(d) in section 24(1), (2) and (3) by repealing “of $1,000” and substituting “at level 3”;
(e) in section 25(1) by repealing “of $1,000” and substituting “at level 2”; (f) in section 26 by repealing “of $1,000” and substituting “at level 3”; (g) in section 42(2) by repealing “of $10,000” and substituting “at level 6”; (8) the Inland Revenue Ordinance (Cap. 112) be amended -
(a) in section 51(4B)(a) by repealing “of $5,000” and substituting “at level 3”; (b) in section 51B(4) by repealing “of $5,000” and substituting “at level 3”; (c) in section 77(5) by repealing “of $20,000” and substituting “at level 4”; (d) in section 80(1) and (2) by repealing “of $5,000” and substituting “at level 3”; (e) in section 80(2B) by repealing “of $5,000” and substituting “at level 4”; (f) in section 81 by repealing “of $50,000” and substituting “at level 5”; (g) in section 82(1) -
(i) by repealing “of $5,000” and substituting “at level 3”;
(ii) by repealing “of $20,000” and substituting “at level 5”;
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(h) in section 85(3) by repealing “a sum of $200” and substituting “a fine at level 1”;
(9) the Stamp Duty Ordinance (Cap. 117) be amended -
(a) in section 15(2) by repealing “of $5,000” and substituting “at level 2”; (b) in section 19(15) by repealing “of $5,000” and substituting “at level 2”; (c) in section 37 by repealing “of $5,000” and substituting “at level 2”; (d) in section 45(7) by repealing “of $5,000” and substituting “at level 2”; (e) in section 58 by repealing “of $5,000” and substituting “at level 2”; (f) in section 60 by repealing “of $10,000” and substituting “at level 6”;
(10) the Air Passenger Departure Tax Ordinance (Cap. 140) be amended - (a) in section 15(1) by repealing “of $5,000” and substituting “at level 4”; (b) in section 15(2) and (4) by repealing “of $10,000” and substituting “at level 4”; (c) in section 15(5) -
(i) in paragraph (a) by repealing “of $50,000” and substituting “at level 6”;
(ii) in paragraph (b) by repealing “of $20,000” and substituting “at level 5”;
(iii) by repealing “$1,000” and substituting “$3,000”;
(11) the Business Registration Ordinance (Cap. 310) be amended -
(a) in section 14(2) by repealing “of $1,000” and substituting “at level 2”; (b) in section 15(1) and (1A) by repealing “of $5,000” and substituting “at level 2”
5516 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL － 19 July 1995
(12) the Business Registration Regulations (Cap. 310 sub. leg.) be amended in regulation 9, in Form 3 by repealing “of $5,000” and substituting “at level 2”;
(13) the Hotel Accommodation Tax Ordinance (Cap. 348) be amended - (a) in section 5(2) and (3) by repealing “of $2,000” and substituting “at level 4”; (b) in section 8(5) by repealing “of $500” and substituting “at level 2”.”
He said: Mr President, I move the resolution standing in my name on the Order Paper.
The motion before Members seeks to increase the maximum statutory fines in various tax-related legislation to restore their real value.
The Criminal Procedure (Amendment) (No. 2) Ordinance 1994 enacted in July 1994 introduced a scale of fines for statutory penalties not exceeding $100,000. This enables the maximum fine level to be increased from time to time by a single order by the Governor in Council to take account of inflation and hence preserve the deterrent effect of the penalties. The standard scale of fines consists of six levels, ranging from $2,000 at level 1 to $100,000 at level 6.
The standard scale, however, does not take account of inflation in respect of fines specified in money terms before their conversion on to the scale. A review of existing fines is therefore necessary in order to cater for past inflation since their introduction or last revision until 1994 when the scale was introduced. I have now reviewed all the ordinances under my purview, which relate primarily to tax collection and administration. I now propose to revise 61 items of statutory fines under eight ordinances and five regulations. They fall into three categories.
First, for fines at or below $100,000 after adjustment for past inflation, they will be converted to the appropriate level of fines on the standard scale. There are 53 items in this category.
Second, for fines above $100,000 after adjustment for past inflation, they will be expressed in money terms. There are six items in this category and they all involve serious offences concerning illegal dealings in dutiable commodities, including cigarettes and diesel oil.
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Third, for daily fines and fixed penalties which are also outside the scope of the standard scale, they will be adjusted for inflation and will continue to be expressed in money terms. There are two items in this category, namely, a daily fine under the Air Passenger Departure Tax Ordinance and a fixed penalty under the Dutiable Commodities Ordinance.
Actual penalties to be imposed will of course continue to be a matter for the courts. However, the higher maximum fines will give the courts wider scope to impose penalty on convicted offenders as they see fit. They will also help to deter potential offenders and encourage voluntary compliance, which is essential to efficient tax collection and administration.
Mr President, I beg to move.
Question on the motion proposed, put and agreed to.
BILLS
Second Reading of Bills
CRIMINAL PROCEDURE (AMENDMENT) BILL 1995
Resumption of debate on Second Reading which was moved on 19 April 1995 Question on Second Reading proposed.
MR RONALD ARCULLI: Mr President, with your leave, I will speak on both the Criminal Procedure (Amendment) Bill 1995 and the Evidence (Amendment) Bill 1995. The Criminal Procedure (Amendment) Bill establishes special procedures in respect of the giving of evidence by vulnerable witnesses during a criminal trial and under this Bill children, the mentally handicapped and persons who are in fear are regarded as vulnerable witnesses. The new procedure is to enable such witnesses to give evidence without fear and without suffering emotional distress. The Evidence Bill provides that all children under the age of 14 are able to give evidence unsworn so as to enable the courts to do justice in such cases and seeks to remove unjustifiable technicalities in the existing law.
The Bills were introduced into this Council on 19 April 1995. A Bills Committee was formed to scrutinize the Bills. The Bills Committee has met four times, including three meetings with the Administration and a meeting with the Hong Kong Bar Association. The Bills Committee has also considered written submission from the Hong Kong Bar Association, the Law Society of Hong Kong and Miss Ann JORDAN.
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The Bills Committee is in support of the basic principles of the Bills. It is nevertheless concerned about the practical application of some of the proposed provisions and has given them full consideration in order to ascertain that they meet the intended objective. I shall mention briefly some of the considerations.
The Bills Committee has discussed with the Administration the definition of the various terms such as “child”, “mentally handicapped person”, “offence of sexual abuse” and “witness in fear” as referred to in the Criminal Procedure (Amendment) Bill. The Bills Committee has noted that the Administration is ready to propose amendments to these definitions in response to comments received and in this regard, Members have also given their suggestions. The Attorney General will move amendments to these definitions at Committee stage.
The Bills Committee has also considered the practical aspects of giving evidence by live television link. Members agree that there should be a provision to clearly spell out that cross-examination and re-examination will occur through the live video-link for a person who has given pre-trial evidence via a video-tape and that the court will decide whether the child witness can give evidence by way of a live television link. The Bills Committee also suggests that the Administration should ensure by administrative measures that at the time of giving such evidence, neither the prosecution nor the defence should exert any influence on the evidence being given, for example, by prompting what the witness should say. In relation to another issue of giving such evidence by way of video recording, the Bills Committee has noted that rules or directions will be made as regards the manner and form of the taking of evidence in the form of a video recording. The Bills Committee agrees that the interviewers shall only be trained police officers, social workers or clinical psychologists employed by the Government. Also, in order to strike a balance between the right to silence and the possible need of the accused who is mentally handicapped, the Bills Committee agrees that an amendment should be made to give the defence an option to apply for leave to have the video recorded evidence adduced in court. The Administration will move the relevant amendments to sections 79B, 79C, 79D and 79E to the Criminal Procedure (Amendment) Bill at Committee stage.
The Bills Committee has noted that the Administration has acted on the recommendation of the Working Party on Mentally Handicapped People Giving Evidence in Court to propose a special procedure of taking a deposition, and has set out very stringent safeguards against abuse of this new procedure.
Mr President, the Bills Committee was also advised by the Bar Association that it does not support the principle of notice of transfer of cases from the District Court to the High Court because the right of a defendant to have committal proceeding under the current procedure can be denied on limited circumstances by the Crown Prosecutor. The Bills Committee has noted that in his matter the Administration has acted on the recommendation of the Report of the Committee on the Evidence of Children in Criminal Proceedings.