HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 7 December 1994 1203 OFFICIAL RECORD OF PROCEEDINGS
Wednesday, 7 December 1994
The Council met at half-past Two o'clock
PRESENT
THE PRESIDENT
THE HONOURABLE JOHN JOSEPH SWAINE, C.B.E., LL.D., Q.C., J.P.
THE CHIEF SECRETARY
THE HONOURABLE MRS ANSON CHAN, C.B.E., J.P.
THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY
THE HONOURABLE SIR NATHANIEL WILLIAM HAMISH MACLEOD, K.B.E., J.P.
THE ATTORNEY GENERAL
THE HONOURABLE JEREMY FELL MATHEWS, C.M.G., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE ALLEN LEE PENG-FEI, C.B.E., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE MRS SELINA CHOW LIANG SHUK-YEE, O.B.E., J.P. THE HONOURABLE HUI YIN-FAT, O.B.E., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE MARTIN LEE CHU-MING, Q.C., J.P.
DR THE HONOURABLE DAVID LI KWOK-PO, O.B.E., LL.D., J.P. THE HONOURABLE SZETO WAH
THE HONOURABLE TAM YIU-CHUNG
THE HONOURABLE ANDREW WONG WANG-FAT, O.B.E., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE EDWARD HO SING-TIN, O.B.E., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE RONALD JOSEPH ARCULLI, O.B.E., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE MARTIN GILBERT BARROW, O.B.E., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE MRS PEGGY LAM, O.B.E., J.P.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 7 December 1994 1204 THE HONOURABLE MRS MIRIAM LAU KIN-YEE, O.B.E., J.P. THE HONOURABLE LAU WAH-SUM, O.B.E., J.P.
DR THE HONOURABLE LEONG CHE-HUNG, O.B.E., J.P. THE HONOURABLE JAMES DAVID McGREGOR, O.B.E., I.S.O., J.P. THE HONOURABLE MRS ELSIE TU, C.B.E.
THE HONOURABLE PETER WONG HONG-YUEN, O.B.E., J.P. THE HONOURABLE ALBERT CHAN WAI-YIP
THE HONOURABLE VINCENT CHENG HOI-CHUEN, O.B.E., J.P. THE HONOURABLE MARVIN CHEUNG KIN-TUNG, O.B.E., J.P. THE HONOURABLE CHEUNG MAN-KWONG
THE HONOURABLE CHIM PUI-CHUNG
REV THE HONOURABLE FUNG CHI-WOOD
THE HONOURABLE FREDERICK FUNG KIN-KEE
THE HONOURABLE TIMOTHY HA WING-HO, M.B.E., J.P. THE HONOURABLE MICHAEL HO MUN-KA
DR THE HONOURABLE HUANG CHEN-YA
THE HONOURABLE SIMON IP SIK-ON, O.B.E., J.P. DR THE HONOURABLE LAM KUI-CHUN
DR THE HONOURABLE CONRAD LAM KUI-SHING, J.P. THE HONOURABLE LAU CHIN-SHEK
THE HONOURABLE EMILY LAU WAI-HING
THE HONOURABLE LEE WING-TAT
THE HONOURABLE ERIC LI KA-CHEUNG, J.P.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 7 December 1994 1205 THE HONOURABLE FRED LI WAH-MING
THE HONOURABLE MAN SAI-CHEONG
THE HONOURABLE STEVEN POON KWOK-LIM
THE HONOURABLE HENRY TANG YING-YEN, J.P.
THE HONOURABLE TIK CHI-YUEN
THE HONOURABLE JAMES TO KUN-SUN
DR THE HONOURABLE SAMUEL WONG PING-WAI, M.B.E., J.P. DR THE HONOURABLE YEUNG SUM
THE HONOURABLE HOWARD YOUNG, J.P.
THE HONOURABLE ZACHARY WONG WAI-YIN
DR THE HONOURABLE TANG SIU-TONG, J.P.
THE HONOURABLE CHRISTINE LOH KUNG-WAI
THE HONOURABLE ROGER LUK KOON-HOO
THE HONOURABLE ANNA WU HUNG-YUK
THE HONOURABLE JAMES TIEN PEI-CHUN, O.B.E., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE ALFRED TSO SHIU-WAI
ABSENT
THE HONOURABLE NGAI SHIU-KIT, O.B.E., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE PANG CHUN-HOI, M.B.E.
THE HONOURABLE LAU WONG-FAT, O.B.E., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE MOSES CHENG MO-CHI
DR THE HONOURABLE PHILIP WONG YU-HONG
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 7 December 1994 1206 IN ATTENDANCE
MR MICHAEL LEUNG MAN-KIN, C.B.E., J.P.
SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER
MR ALISTAIR PETER ASPREY, C.B.E., A.E., J.P.
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY
MR CHAU TAK-HAY, J.P.
SECRETARY FOR TRADE AND INDUSTRY
MR HAIDER HATIM TYEBJEE BARMA, I.S.O., J.P. SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT
MR DONALD TSANG YAM-KUEN, O.B.E., J.P.
SECRETARY FOR THE TREASURY
MRS KATHERINE FOK LO SHIU-CHING, O.B.E., J.P. SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE
MRS ELIZABETH MARGARET BOSHER, J.P.
SECRETARY FOR ECONOMIC SERVICES
THE CLERK TO THE LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL
MR RICKY FUNG CHOI-CHEUNG
THE DEPUTY SECRETARY GENERAL
MR LAW KAM-SANG
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 7 December 1994 1207 PAPERS
The following papers were laid on the table pursuant to Standing Order 14(2): Subject
Subsidiary Legislation L.N. No.
Electricity (Registration) (Amendment) Regulation
1994 .................................................................................................. 638/94
Import and Export (Registration) (Amendment)
Regulation 1994 ................................................................................ 639/94
Medical Laboratory Technologists (Registration and
Disciplinary Procedure) (Amendment) (No. 2)
Regulation 1994 ................................................................................ 640/94
Merchant Shipping (Prevention of Oil Pollution)
(Amendment) Regulation 1994 ......................................................... 641/94
Merchant Shipping (Safety) (Dangerous Goods and
Marine Pollutants) Regulation........................................................... 642/94
Occupational Therapists (Registration and
Disciplinary Procedure) (Amendment) (No. 3)
Regulation 1994 ................................................................................ 643/94
Optometrists (Registration and Disciplinary Procedure)
(Amendment) Regulation 1994 ......................................................... 644/94
Peak Tramway (Safety) (Amendment) Regulation
1994 .................................................................................................. 645/94
Education (Overseas Tertiary Institutions) (Exemption)
(Amendment) Order 1994 ................................................................. 646/94
Hong Kong Examinations Authority Ordinance
(Amendment of Schedule 2) Order 1994........................................... 647/94
Road Traffic Ordinance (Amendment of Schedule 5)
Order 1994 ........................................................................................ 648/94
Immigration (Places of Detention) (Amendment) (No.
2) Order 1994.................................................................................... 649/94
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 7 December 1994 1208 Rectification of Errors (No. 2) Order 1994 ............................................... 650/94
Organized and Serious Crimes Ordinance (82 of 1994)
(Commencement) Notice 1994...................................................... 651/94
Official Languages (Authentic Chinese Text) (Betting
Duty Ordinance) Order.................................................................. (C)32/94
Official Languages (Authentic Chinese Text) (Stamp
Duty Ordinance) Order.................................................................. (C)33/94
Official Languages (Authentic Chinese Text) (Air
Passenger Departure Tax Ordinance) Order .................................. (C)34/94
Sessional Papers 1994-95
No. 44 — Ocean Park Corporation Annual Report 1993-94
No. 45 — Chinese Temples Fund Income and Expenditure Account with Balance Sheet and Certificate of the Director of Audit for the year ended 31 March 1994
No. 46 — Report by the Trustee of the Police Children's Education Trust, Police Education and Welfare Trust for the period 1 April 1993 - 31 March 1994
ADDRESS
Ocean Park Corporation Annual Report 1993-94
MR RONALD ARCULLI: Mr President, tabled before the Council today is the Ocean Park Corporation's Annual Report 1993-94.
In the past financial year ended 30 June 1994, Ocean Park hosted a record 3.2 million visitors, following its remarkable 22% growth of the previous year.
Financially, the Ocean Park has shown a healthy surplus of $73 million, a net operating surplus of $53 million, and an operating income which reached a new high of $301 million.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 7 December 1994 1209
These positive results were achieved without additional costs to our visitors, as our admission prices, which had been lowered in February 1993, remained stable and are not planned to be increased in the near future.
The most visible highlight of 1993-94 was the first-full year operation of our new family area called "Kids' World". In July and August 1993, the first two months after Kids' World opened, the Park recorded the highest ever summer attendance of over 650 000 visitors, an 18% increase over the previous summer.
Another notable milestone was the creation of the Ocean Park Conservation Foundation. With the assistance of a total of 30 co-operative institutions, including such international organizations as the World Conservation Union and the World Wide Fund for Nature, as well as local bodies such as the Hong Kong Agricultural and Fisheries Department, the Foundation is moving towards establishing itself as a leading force in a co ordinated campaign, involving educational, scientific and conservationist efforts, to protect and preserve endangered marine mammal species in Asia.
We have also seen satisfying results throughout last year with regard to the Park's renewed emphasis on community service through awareness of the needs of Hong Kong's disabled residents. A series of renovations to facilities, mechanical rides and attractions, at a total cost of HK$4 million, made the park entirely accessible to handicapped visitors. Most recently, the Park received the 1994 Award for the Most Accessible Open Space for Disabled Persons from the Joint Council for the Physically and Mentally Disabled.
1993-94 was also marked by steady growth, aggressive expansion and continuous commitment for the future. Our long-term development plan shows continuous progress, and will serve to meet the needs of all age groups and preferences within the community. This Christmas, the Park will open a new Dinosaur Discovery Trail and two new rides, the "Ferris Wheel" and the "Eagle" for the continual enjoyment of our family audience.
In all, for the Ocean Park, the last year has been most rewarding, both in financial and non-financial terms. It was a year which we feel will lead to even greater success, as the Park continues to fulfil its mission to provide a balanced mix of recreation, education and conservation. In view of these achievements, I feel it is especially appropriate to acknowledge the successful efforts of the Park's executive management and its nearly 1 000 dedicated staff members. It is through their continuous efforts, Mr President, that the Park has achieved this level of success.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 7 December 1994 1210 ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
Indecency Case at the University of Hong Kong
1. MISS EMILY LAU asked (in Cantonese): It was reported that on 30 August this year, a lecturer of the University of Hong Kong exposed himself indecently to a female student in the University library. The University authorities did not report the incident to the Police and the lecturer subsequently left his post at the end of September. In connection with this, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) whether the Hong Kong University has conducted any investigation into the incident; if so, what is the outcome of the investigation; and whether the University has any guidelines specifying how to deal with lecturers or students who are allegedly involved in cases of indecency or theft;
(b) of the number of complaints about immoral acts involving lecturers or students which the University has received this year; and
(c) whether any lecturers of the University have been disciplined or dismissed because of involvement in indecency cases over the past three years?
SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER: Mr President,
(a) The Administration understands from the University that the student concerned reported the case in writing to the University administration shortly after the incident. She also indicated that she did not intend to report the matter to the police. The University interviewed the member of staff concerned, who did not deny the alleged offence. Medical opinion was sought and the member of staff was asked to resign. He immediately did so, and left the University. The Administration also understands that the University has formal procedures to handle complaints against lecturers and staff involved in cases of indecency or theft. In the case of a criminal offence, it is reported to the police. In addition, a working party was established by the University about a year ago to consider all matters relating to equal opportunities, including gender discrimination and sexual ethics. It is expected that formal guidelines will emerge from this process.
(b) and (c)
The answer to both is nil.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 7 December 1994 1211
MISS EMILY LAU (in Cantonese): Mr President, I am puzzled and surprised because according to the Administration's reply, the student indicated that she did not intend to report the matter to the police and yet the staff member concerned did not deny the alleged offence. I am, however, pleased to know that the University, in handling complaints of this kind, has formal procedures which set out clearly that the University would report to the police in the case of a criminal offence. Will the Government explain to us in more detail as to whether this case is a criminal offence? If so, is the University obliged to accept the student's request though she indicated she did not intend to report the case to the police and how should the University make the decision? Maybe the Administration is in a difficult position to furnish an answer because it is not the authority to which of the University is responsible. Nevertheless, I hope that the Secretary for Education and Manpower may, within his jurisdiction, give the Council some detailed explanation this afternoon. It is particularly strange that the member of staff concerned has clearly admitted the offence and the University's procedures have also laid down clearly that it would report to the police should such a case occurs. Why did the University not report the matter to the police? And has the staff member concerned been able to get away with a handsome sum of money upon his resignation? Thank you, Mr President.
PRESIDENT: Are you able to answer both aspects of that question, Secretary?
SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER: Mr President, of course the Member understands that I am not responsible for the detailed operation or administration of the University because it is an autonomous institution for very good reasons. To the extent that we understand the case, medical opinion was sought on the member of staff who committed that offence. It was medical opinion that the member of staff was suffering from a psychiatric disorder. The University did consider the case in detail but concluded that for the benefit of the University, the student concerned and the staff concerned, the best course of action is to ask the staff to seek medical assistance and to resign immediately. That was done.
As regards whether he would get any benefits arising from his contract, these are matters of detail which I have to ask the University concerned to get the information.
DR CONRAD LAM (in Cantonese): Mr President, the Secretary for Education and Manpower mentioned in his reply that a Working Party was established a year ago to consider all matters relating to equal opportunities. For the sake of giving the students equal opportunities and taking care of their interests properly, will the Administration inform this Council whether students should be represented on the Court of the University? If so, what should be the number of student representatives if equity is to be upheld; and if not, what are the reasons?
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 7 December 1994 1212
PRESIDENT: I think your question goes way beyond the original question and the answer, Dr LAM. Do you want another question?
DR CONRAD LAM (in Cantonese): Mr President, the Secretary for Education and Manpower said in his reply that medical opinion was sought by the University. Will the Secretary inform this Council what medical opinion has been given?
SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER: Mr President, I thought that I have already said the medical opinion was that the member of staff was suffering from a psychiatric disorder. I do not have details of this particular report but I can get it from the University if Members so wish.
REV FUNG CHI-WOOD (in Cantonese): Mr President, the University of Hong Kong has formal procedures to handle complaints of indecency. In connection with this, has the University followed the established procedures to handle this particular case, such as handing over the case to a specific committee? Is the penalty too light, or is it appropriate just to request the offender to resign?
PRESIDENT: Two questions there, Secretary.
SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER: Mr President, as I understand it the University and in fact all the other University and Polytechnic Grants Committee-funded institutions do have established procedures internally in dealing with complaints or cases of this kind, and in fact in most cases most institutions deal with complaints through their disciplinary committees within the universities or institutions concerned. I assume in this case that it must have gone through the proceedings within the University, but I can get confirmation from the University on this point.
I do not think I have got the second part of Rev FUNG's question.
PRESIDENT: Could you repeat that, Rev FUNG?
REV FUNG CHI-WOOD (in Cantonese): Mr President, the second part of my question is about the penalty. Does the Secretary for Education and Manpower think that the penalty is appropriate or too light?
PRESIDENT: He is asking for your opinion, Secretary. You are not obliged to give one.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 7 December 1994 1213
SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER: Mr President, I do not think I can judge the opinion on this case myself.
MR HENRY TANG (in Cantonese): Mr President, will the Secretary for Education and Manpower tell us whether, in Hong Kong, exposing oneself indecently is a criminal offence? If so, why did the University not report the matter to the police as the Secretary just mentioned in his reply that formal procedures had been established for the University of Hong Kong to handle such cases and that reports would be made to the police? Is it the case that exposing oneself indecently does not constitute a criminal offence in Hong Kong? Apart from tertiary institutions, have any cases similar to this occurred in primary or secondary schools? If so, are there any formal procedures for handling such cases?
PRESIDENT: You are talking about schools now, Mr TANG.
MR HENRY TANG: Mr President, yes. Are there any cases similar to this ever reported in schools? If there is, are there any formal procedures in schools?
PRESIDENT: The original question went to the University. I think we had better keep it at that. Can you answer the first part of the question, Secretary?
SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER: Mr President, the first part of the question refers to whether indecencies of this kind constitute a criminal offence. I think I have to take legal advice on this particular point.
MRS SELINA CHOW (in Cantonese): Mr President, the Government just replied that the member of staff concerned "was asked to resign" instead of being dismissed by the University. When the University asked the staff concerned to resign, under what terms has he been asked to resign and has he been given pecuniary compensation? I believe that Members are very concerned about this. If the staff member concerned tendered his resignation voluntarily and was given compensation in the form of salaries and so on, what were the reasons for the University to handle the case in this manner? Does the Government agree with that?
SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER: Mr President, the Government plays no part in the recruitment or dismissal of staff within the University concerned. As regards the circumstances in which he was asked to resign or was dismissed, I have to get the information from the University and give the Member a reply in writing. (Annex I)
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 7 December 1994 1214
MRS PEGGY LAM (in Cantonese): Mr President, the Secretary for Education and Manpower mentioned in his reply that the University had formal procedures to handle complaints against lecturers and staff involved in cases of indecency or theft. Is each and every student aware of these formal procedures?
SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER: Mr President, the institution concerned of course has a student affairs office and information of this kind, involving students and staff, will always of course be a matter for information within the University for all staff and students to understand. So my assumption is that this must have been made known within the University.
Target Oriented Curriculum Programme
2. DR TANG SIU-TONG asked (in Cantonese): The Target Oriented Curriculum (TOC) programme was introduced as a pilot scheme by the Education Department in 12 primary schools in the 1992-93 school year. It is learnt that the TOC programme will be extended to 70 schools in 1995 and that full-scale implementation of the programme in all primary schools will take place in 1996. In connection with this, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) whether the report on the assessment of the pilot scheme carried out in the first 12 schools will be made available to educationlists and the public for information;
(b) whether these schools who have praticipated in the pilot schemes will be willing to participate in the programme;
(c) what are the reasons for extending the pilot scheme to 70 primary schools in 1995; and whether any areas for improvement have been identified in the first phase of the scheme; if so, what those areas are; and
(d) whether the Education Department will consult all schools to ascertain if they wish to join the TOC programme before it is implemented in all primary schools in 1996; and what are the reasons for deciding on the full-scale implementation of the programme without first assessing the extended pilot scheme to be undertaken in 1995?
SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER: Mr President,
(a) The Target Oriented Curriculum (TOC) was first tried out in 20, not 12, primary schools in the 1992-93 school year. This pilot scheme identified a number of operational problems. These
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 7 December 1994 1215
concerned mainly the proposed timing for implementation in April 1993, the scheme's design and framework, the resultant increased workload for teachers and the need for providing them with adequate support. I am tabling with this reply a summary of the Department's findings on this pilot scheme. This summary of course is available to the public for information. As a result of that survey, the Department decided to postpone the implementation date and appointed an advisory committee to consider all these problems further, and subsequently tried out an improved version of the scheme in 13 schools in 1993-94 and in another 25 schools in 1994-95.
(b) Of the 20 schools which participated in the pilot scheme in 1992-93, four have applied to take part in the first phase of the Implementation Programme covering Primary I classes in 70 schools in 1995-96 and the remaining in the second phase involving all primary schools in 1996-97.
(c) The introduction of TOC in 70 primary schools from September 1995 is not an extension of the pilot scheme. This decision has been taken after a most careful evaluation of the results of the pilot scheme and subsequent trials as well as the recommendations of the advisory committee mentioned in paragraph (a) above and the resource implications for the Department. The areas of improvements identified in the pilot scheme and subsequent trials have been incorporated into the final implementation plan.
(d) The TOC helps schools to develop clear targets and adopt better approaches for more effective teaching, learning and assessment. Teachers will not be able to appreciate the good effects which TOC has on their pupils until they practise it. Implementation planned for September 1996 for all Primary I classes in primary schools is therefore necessary to ensure consistency in the curriculum throughout the primary sector.
The scheme has undergone extensive consultation, trial and development for the past four years. It will continue to develop taking full account of the feedback of the 70 primary schools taking part in the first phase of implementation in 1995-96 and views of Members of this Council and, of course, the general public. Full implementation in September 1996, starting in Primary I in all schools is therefore planned on this basis.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 7 December 1994 1216 Annex
TOC Pilot Scheme 1992-93
The aims of the TOC Pilot Scheme 1992-93 were to try out in sample primary schools to identify operational problems and to modify the TOC implementation plan in the light of the findings of this scheme.
Brief summary of findings
Positive feedback:
- The general principle and spirit was accepted.
- Panel co-ordination was improved because of the need of discussion and collaboration among teachers. (This inferred that there was more work.)
Complaints:
Procedural -
- The implementation schedule to begin in April 1993 was unrealistic. - There was no consultation outside the Education Department.
- There was little teacher participation, and top-down development was unacceptable. Support measures -
- The documents were difficult to understand and the targets were sometimes too idealistic.
- There was dissatisfaction with the three-day teacher training seminars.
- There were no appropriate teaching and learning materials and resource materials. The guidelines and exemplary materials were not sufficient.
- Parents were not adequately informed and schools did not feel confident enough to introduce TOC to them.
- Publicity was poor.
Design and framework -
- The assessment framework was not ready: there was concern on over-assessment and the complexity of the method.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 7 December 1994 1217
- TOC provided diagnosis without remedy: issues of band differences and individual differences were not properly handled.
- There was suspicion that TOC was intended to support Medium of Instruction Grouping Assessment.
Workload -
- Over 94% of teachers in the Pilot Scheme were concerned about the increased workload and shortage of manpower. There was complaint that the large class size did not allow for the strategies recommended in TOC.
- Teachers were dissatisfied that they were asked to write tasks and re-juggle the various parts of textbooks in accordance to the learning targets and objectives.
- Most teachers were unable to cope with task-based and student-centred approaches, and found TOC extremely demanding on their time and efforts.
Development and Improvements Based on the Findings
Remedial measures during the Pilot Scheme
- Subject-specific learning tasks were provided as from November 1992 onwards.
- A series of Saturday consultation sessions were organized in December 1992 - January 1993.
- Schools were provided in early 1993 with reference books, tape-recorders, stationery and duplication paper.
Development since the Pilot Scheme
Procedural -
- The implementation schedule was deferred and an advisory committee was set up to review the situation.
- The Advisory Committee on Implementation of TOC represented broad consultation and its report has further been circulated among related bodies.
- The subject committees under the Curriculum Development Council have been actively involved to increase teacher participation; and major points of development have been discussed among teacher members of the
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 7 December 1994 1218
Resource Development Team (18 teachers attached to the TOC Section). The draft Programmes of Study and Bands of Performance will be circulated to schools for consultation.
Support measures -
- All documents have been simplified and made user-friendly, and the learning targets have been revised for improvement.
- The three-day teacher training programme will be revised and extended to include school-based development in accordance with the recommendation of the Advisory Committee.
- Over 100 learning tasks per subject have been drafted and displayed at TOC Resource Centre. Some have been selected for printing and distribution to schools.
- Teaching and learning materials will be produced by publishers with close monitoring by Curriculum Development Institute (CDI).
- A TOC Resource Centre has been initially set up.
- A pamphlet, a leaflet and a video programme are being prepared for parents and the public at large in accordance with the recommendations of the Advisory Committee.
Design and framework -
- The guidelines for assessment are being drafted for each subject in accordance with the recommendations of the Advisory Committee. There will not be over-assessment. Examples of assessment tasks, Bands of Performance and reporting format have been prepared and will be included in the Programmes of Study for Key Stages 1 and 2.
- Issues of group differences and individual differences will be discussed in the Programmes of Study where appropriate. A set of suggestions on how to cater for individual differences is being prepared by the English Unit, CDI.
Workload -
- The increased teacher ratio and reduction of class size from September 1993 onwards should help to relieve some of the workload problems. TOC encourages learner independence which will ultimately change the interaction patterns between teachers and students.
- Teachers will be provided with ample learning tasks and assessment tasks written by the Resource Development Team, by publishers in their
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 7 December 1994 1219
teaching and learning packages, and by the Bank of Assessment Tasks in due course. However, teachers should still be encouraged to write tasks for their particular groups of learners.
- The number of teachers trained by the Teacher Education Section to cope with task based and student-centred approaches have increased significantly.
DR TANG SIU-TONG (in Cantonese): Mr President, the Administration has not answered part (c) and (d) of my question. The Secretary for Education and Manpower mentioned in paragraph (c) of his reply that there were many areas of improvements in the pilot scheme, but he has failed to point them out when we asked him to do so. Secondly, will the Administration inform this Council whether it will be compulsory for all the schools to join this scheme when it is put into practice in 1996? It is mentioned in paragraph (a) of the reply that a summary of the Education Department's findings is tabled today, but I cannot find it on the table.
SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER: Mr President, on the reasons for the assessments, the problems identified are tabled here. I am sorry if Members did not get a copy in time but this was sent to the Council's office before the meeting. The reasons were summarized in the paper tabled. Basically, they involve a number of problems on the procedures and on the support services, focusing mainly on the support services and materials required for teachers to prepare for this new method and approach in the teaching and learning process. It also underlines the importance of adequate resource support provided to schools to start with this new programme. The other aspect of improvement is on the training of teachers and on helping teachers with their workload. All these have subsequently been improved upon in the subsequent trials and will be fully reflected in the beginning of the scheme in September 1995.
So, on the question of whether schools should be asked to look at this before going for full implementation, I think there will be plenty of opportunities for all schools, starting in fact from now until September 1995, to understand more fully all the reasons behind this particular approach, in the curriculum and the Department is ready to explain this at any time. There will in fact be teams of officers and staff helping the teachers concerned to understand it more fully and giving them the support necessary before the scheme is started in September 1995.
Whether or not there will be a review after that process of course still remains open. I think we ought to keep things flexible and consider whether in September 1995, the schools concerned do have problems which have not been overcome and if so, we will be very happy to consider those problems to see how far they can be overcome before September 1996.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 7 December 1994 1220
So, the short answer is, of course we will not be forcing schools to do this unless they are able and willing to adopt this approach, and given adequate support for the new curriculum, they should welcome this approach, and the parents and the pupils should as well.
MR HENRY TANG: Mr President, in paragraph (b) of the answer provided by the Secretary, of the 20 schools which participated in the pilot scheme in 1992-93, only four have applied to participate in the first phase of the implementation programme. Now having practised my speed-reading on the pilot scheme's summary of findings, I find that there have been some rather serious complaints from the people who are actually doing this. For example, there is little teacher participation and top-down development is unacceptable. Now judging by the result, it seems the schools are voting with their feet and they have decided not to join the first phase of the implementation programme. Has the Education Department or has the Branch considered other schemes or whether they will have to completely rethink this scheme's implementation procedure, to the effect that it be juggled differently so that you can encourage more schools to participate rather than force feeding them?
SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER: Mr President, I do not think we can judge the applications of the four schools as the only criteria of response. Indeed, for the first phase of the scheme, we have now more than 70 schools applying to join the first part of the scheme in September 1995, which is an indication that the schools do welcome this very important, very significant improvement for the learning and teaching in our primary schools.
As regards preparation for the teachers concerned, again I think that given the trial scheme and the subsequent further trials on two occasions, I think that teachers will have adequate opportunity to understand the problems involved, and as I said earlier on, the Department stands ready at any time to give teachers more assistance and preparation before the first stage of the scheme in September 1995.
Governor's Business Council
3. MR ERIC LI asked (in Cantonese): Will the Government inform this Council:
(a) of the total number of meetings held by the Governor's Business Council since its establishment and the average rate of attendance of its members;
(b) of the issues discussed by the Governor's Business Council; and what suggestions made by the business sector on these issues have
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been accepted by the Government which will help the territory's economic development; and
(c) whether the Government will consider making public the matters discussed and the decisions reached after each meeting, in the same way as is done in other important advisory bodies; if not, what measures the Government will take to enhance the transparency of the Governor's Business Council?
SECRETARY FOR TRADE AND INDUSTRY (in Cantonese): Mr President, since its establishment two years ago, the Governor's Business Council has met twelve times. The average attendance rate is 84%.
The Governor's Business Council has discussed a wide range of issues which have an impact on the economy and the conduct of business in Hong Kong, including inflation, competition, labour shortage, retirement protection, the renewal of China's Most Favoured Nation status in the United States, the economic implications of the outcome of the Uruguay Round of multilateral trade negotiations, corruption and business ethics and land supply, planning and redevelopment procedures. On all these issues, the candid views offered by members of the Governor's Business Council have been extremely helpful in enabling the Governor and the senior officials represented on the Council to appreciate the business sector's perspectives on these issues. Specific issues on which the Governor's Business Council's input has been sought and taken into account include the Government's decision, in respect of competition policy, to ask the Consumer Council to undertake a series of studies on specific sectors of the economy; the strengthening of the Consumer Council so that it can take on a more vigorous role in promoting competition and consumer welfare; the institution of 24-hour border road crossing arrangements at Lok Ma Chau and the development of codes of ethics for the business community.
As regards the third part of the question, I would like to inform the Honourable Member that the Business Council will be consulted at its next meeting about future measures to publicize the main issues discussed at its meetings.
MR ERIC LI (in Cantonese): Mr President, today I am pleased to hear that the Government has planned to publicize the main issues that have been discussed at meetings of the Business Council. I hope that the Government can keep up its efforts and publicize other issues that have been discussed in the past as well. Established in 1992, the Governor's Business Council is an important component of the Governor's political reform package, and its main objective is to facilitate communication between the Hong Kong Government and the business sector. The attendance rate of 84% proves that the big guns in the business sector have attached great importance to the meetings and have been willing to spend plenty of their valuable time and effort to express their views.
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Why did the Government merely indicated in its reply that it appreciated the Council's perspectives and yet failed to give any specific example to show that it has ever accepted the Council's opinions? Besides, it seems that the establishment of this extra channel of communication has not succeeded in improving the relationship between the Government and the business sector. Is that because the political reform has been unsuccessful or is there a communication problem, with only the business sector "unilaterally" expressing its views to the Governor who has not given due attention to the views?
PRESIDENT: Are you asking the Secretary's opinion on the first part of your question, Mr Eric LI?
MR ERIC LI (in Cantonese): My question is whether the political reform package has failed or are there problems in terms of the method adopted. Is this only a unilateral communication?
PRESIDENT: I am going to disallow that question, so rephrase the rest of your question please?
MR ERIC LI (in Cantonese): Although members of the business sector attach such importance to the Council and take so much trouble to express their opinions, the Government has merely indicated in its reply that the perspectives of the business community are appreciated and has failed to give any concrete example to show that it has accepted any of the opinions. Can the Government give a specific example?
SECRETARY FOR TRADE AND INDUSTRY (in Cantonese): Mr President, the answer to this question is actually very simple. The nature of the Governor's Business Council is different from that of the Executive Council or other major advisory frameworks such as the Transport Advisory Committee. The Government does not require this Council to make proposals or decisions on issues that cover a narrow scope. The Council is also not required to reach any consensus. Topics discussed at the Council's meetings are therefore rather general while specific questions are not to be touched upon. Furthermore, the meetings of the Council are different from those of the Executive Council in which a concrete proposal or decision has to be made in each meeting. Mr President, although the second part of Mr LI's first supplementary question seems to deviate from the main question, it touches on the operation of the Governor's Business Council and I think I am able to give a brief answer. Regarding Mr LI's allegation that the communication between the Governor and the business sector of Hong Kong is not very good, I think it is only his personal, one-sided view and I am afraid I cannot agree with him. The
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Governor is of the view that the Council is immensely valuable and that he has been able to obtain many precious suggestions at its meetings.
MR CHIM PUI-CHUNG (in Cantonese): Mr President, in the second paragraph of his reply, the Secretary for Trade and Industry has clearly pointed out that about a dozen issue have been discussed in the Governor's Business Council. Besides, I understand that some members of the Council are representatives from the financial sector. May I ask the Secretary whether it is the case that the Government does not attach importance to the activities of the financial sector; and why the dozen of questions cited in the second paragraph have not involved anything relating to the financial sector? Realizing this situation, will the Government make improvement in future so that the Governor can obtain opinions about the whole structure of Hong Kong?
SECRETARY FOR TRADE AND INDUSTRY (in Cantonese): The discussed issues listed in the second paragraph of the reply may not be exhaustive, and some issues may have been missed out. Nevertheless, matters pertaining to the financial sector have indeed been discussed in the Governor's Business Council. The report made by the Consumer Council on the interest rates of banks, for examples, is one of these. I will certainly reflect Mr CHIM's valuable suggestions to the Governor for his consideration as to whether there should be more discussions on financial issues.
MR JAMES TIEN (in Cantonese): All matters of concern of the Governor's Business Council mentioned in the reply given by the Secretary for Trade and Industry are directly related to the commercial and industrial sectors. May I ask the Secretary for Trade and Industry whether the Council will consider other problems, such as transport, housing, welfare for the elderly and so on, that concern people's livelihood with which the commercial and industrial sector are equally concerned? Or does the Government think that it is not necessary to consult the commercial and industrial sector on these kinds of problems?
SECRETARY FOR TRADE AND INDUSTRY (in Cantonese): Mr President, as I have said earlier, it is not possible to list all the issues that have been discussed in the Governor's Business Council in the second paragraph of the reply. In fact, it has also been mentioned in the reply that retirement protection has been discussed in the Council. It can be said that this is related to the elderly and the Council has discussed this issue on a number of occasions. Other issues like transport, housing and so on have also been discussed in the Council. It is only that we have not been able to list each and every discussed item.
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MR JIMMY McGREGOR: Mr President, may I say that I have had grave doubts about the efficiency of this Council from the very beginning and my question is, can the Secretary say how advice to the Governor from this Council on the range of important issues mentioned is co-ordinated with the advice provided by other boards and councils on the same subjects, such as the Trade Advisory Board, Textiles Advisory Board, Labour Advisory Board and various industrial and technology boards and councils? Are those boards made aware of views expressed by the Business Council and what is the relationship between the Council and the other boards? Mr President, I am concerned to ensure that the Business Council does not place these other boards and councils, which have operated for many, many years in terms of high policy to the Government, into a second division.
SECRETARY FOR TRADE AND INDUSTRY: Mr President, we have a very efficient way actually of disseminating views expressed on the Governor's Business Council to the various Branches of the Government which are responsible for various subjects. For example, when a particular subject is on the agenda of the Business Council, the Policy Secretary and sometimes other related officials will be in attendance and they will be fully aware through their attendance of views expressed by members. Also, after each meeting, the minutes of the meeting produced are circulated to various Policy Branches so that the relevant Branches may be aware of views expressed by the Business Council which relate to their areas and which require action.
As regards the existing or pre-existing advisory boards and committees, such as the Labour Advisory Board, the Trade and Textiles Advisory Boards, being placed in a second division, I can assure Mr McGREGOR that there is no risk of that happening because all the other advisory committees set up by the Government concentrate on specific areas in which the Government put specific recommendations to them for advice, whereas the Governor's Business Council takes a much more strategic and overall view of activities which may impinge on the economy. The importance of the other advisory boards and committees have not been impaired by the setting up of the Governor's Business Council and will not be.
PRESIDENT: Not answered, Mr McGREGOR?
MR JIMMY McGREGOR: Not answered in one respect, Mr President. In regard to the question of co-ordination, direct co-ordination between these very important boards and councils which have been operating in Hong Kong for so many years, giving good advice to the Government, the direct liaison between these boards and the Business Council has not been made clear. Mr President, I mean, not just a passage of information through Secretaries in the Government but the question of direct information obtained from these boards and an exchange of views between these boards and this Business Council. Is that left
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 7 December 1994 1225 to the members to decide or does the Government itself provide such a system of liaison?
SECRETARY FOR TRADE AND INDUSTRY: Mr President, where judged necessary, the Policy Secretary involved will be the one to decide on how the particular advisory board or committee may be affected or is to be consulted on views expressed on the Governor's Business Council. I think Policy Secretaries are more than capable of playing such a co ordinating role.
MR FRED LI (in Cantonese): Mr President, the Governor's Business Council has been established for two years. I asked this question when the Council was first set up and I wish to repeat the question here. One of the foremost duties of the Council is to formulate competitive policies, a point which has also been raised by the Secretary for Trade and Industry in his reply. However, the majority of members of the Council are heads of consortia. Conflicts of roles and interests may therefore arise during discussion of questions pertaining to competition. For example, some studies undertaken by the Consumer Council may be basically directed against certain consortia which belong to members of the Council. In this regard, how does the Government avoid conflicts of roles and interests among members of the Council in order to enhance the credibility of the Council?
SECRETARY FOR TRADE AND INDUSTRY (in Cantonese): Mr President, members of the Governor's Business Council are all well-known personages of the commercial and industrial sectors in Hong Kong. The Administration and even the public at large clearly know the scope and interests of the members' businesses. Hence, the Governor and other Government representatives of the Council basically have a clear understanding of each Member's involved interests. Of course, we already have their backgrounds in mind when we listen to their views. Therefore, it can be said that we have taken this factor into account.
MR HENRY TANG (in Cantonese): Mr President, I think Mr Christopher PATTEN has a strong belief in democracy and openness and I also believe there is nothing in the Governor's Business Council that cannot be disclosed. For these reasons, will the Government consider making the minutes of each meeting public so that the issues discussed in the Council will be made known to the public and that there will not be any omission in answering questions next time which may otherwise cause my colleague to be dissatisfied with the Secretary for Trade and Industry?
SECRETARY FOR TRADE AND INDUSTRY (in Cantonese): I entirely agree with what Mr Henry TANG has said and I can also confirm that there is nothing
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in the Governor's Business Council that cannot be disclosed. However, we have to understand that meetings of the Council are held for allowing leaders of the business sector to express their personal opinions to the Governor. Hence, it is inappropriate to make public the minutes not only of meetings of this Council, but also of meetings of similar nature held by the Government or the business sector.
MR ERIC LI (in Cantonese): Mr President, I wish to follow up with a question. It is reported that the questions of political reform and old age pension have been discussed in the Governor's Business Council. Can the Government confirm that such discussions have really been held? Were the opinions expressed by representatives of the business sector identical and how did the Government understand and accommodate these comparatively similar views of the business sector before coming to its decision?
PRESIDENT: There are two topics there which call for a comment, Secretary.
SECRETARY FOR TRADE AND INDUSTRY (in Cantonese): Mr President, as I have mentioned earlier, the Governor's Business Council has discussed the question of old age pension two or three times. The Council has also touched upon and discussed the constitutional reform package of the Legislative Council. However, as I have said earlier, when each member expresses his opinion, the opinion is expressed as a personal view in the member's personal capacity. I believe Mr LI would have found it very strange if I had told him that consensus on these two very controversial topics could have been reached among the 10-odd to 20 members. The fact is the views of the members are not unanimous. However, I cannot disclose their views one by one here.
Route 3 (Country Park Section)
4. MR ALFRED TSO asked (in Cantonese): It is learnt that the delay in the construction of Route 3 has caused serious traffic congestion in the western part of the New Territories and affected the development of the region. Although the contract for the construction of the Ting Kau Section of Route 3 has been awarded as scheduled, no decision has yet been reached on the contract for the Country Park Section which is behind its original schedule. In view of this, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) of the progress made in the scrutiny of the private tenders for this Section and the reasons for the delay;
(b) when the conditions for the concession to operate this Section and the relevant legislation will be submitted to this Council for scrutiny;
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(c) whether the Government will ensure that the public interest is safeguarded in the drawing up of the tender conditions and the selection of the contractor; and
(d) whether, and if so when, contacts with the Chinese side will be made to further discuss the Route 3 project so as to link it to the proposed large-scale China-Hong Kong Road Network plan recently announced by the City of Shenzhen?
SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT: Mr President, let me say, at the outset, that the Administration fully shares the view expressed in this Council and today by the Honourable Alfred TSO that Route 3 is urgently needed both to ease traffic congestion in the northwestern part of the New Territories and to cope with projected growth, especially for cross-border traffic.
I now turn to the specific questions asked:
(a) First, we have received three very competitive bids for the franchise to build and operate the Route 3 (Country Park Section). This necessitated in-depth negotiations with all three tenderers and also a very detailed assessment of their submissions to enable the Administration to determine the best offer. This part of the exercise took a little longer than expected. Notwithstanding this slight slippage in the timetable, we still expect and are confident that the project can be completed by late 1998 as originally envisaged.
(b) Second, we are now in the final stages of negotiations with the shortlisted tenderer and expect to be able to submit the enabling bill for the grant of the franchise to this Council in early 1995.
(c) Third, Members can rest assured that, to safeguard the public interest, we will seek to achieve the best possible terms for the franchise. Indeed, this partly explains why the negotiations with the three bidders have required more time.
(d) Fourth, the Country Park Section of Route 3 runs from Ting Kau to Au Tau in Yuen Long. It links up with the New Territories Circular Road which provides links to the border. Details of proposals for cross-border points can be discussed by the newly established Co-ordinating Committee on Major Cross-Border Infrastructure.
MR ALFRED TSO (in Cantonese): The newly-established Co-ordinating Committee on Major Cross-Border Infrastructure plays a very important role in solving and promoting the planning of China and Hong Kong, as well as co-ordinating cross-border projects. The Lingding Sea Bridge and the Shenzhen-Hong
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Kong Western Corridor proposed by China have to be linked up with the road network of Hong Kong, including the Route 3. When will the Government take the initiative to raise this issue with the Chinese side through the Committee? And when is the tentative planning proposal expected to be presented to this Council?
SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT: Mr President, I certainly agree that this new Committee which has just been established has a very important role. It will enable pragmatic and practical approaches to cross-border projects. As has been announced, I expect that this Committee will meet again some time in January to discuss the agenda and the way forward, and following that I expect that panels will be set up to discuss specific projects, for example, on roads and rails. Once we have some progress I will be happy to report progress to this Council.
MR STEVEN POON (in Cantonese): Mr President, the legislation on the franchise of the Western Harbour Crossing relating to the charging standard, the automatic toll adjustment formula, the calculation of percentage return and the forecast of traffic flow has aroused heated controversy in the Legislative Council. The fact that the bill had already gained the consent of the Joint Liaison Group (JLG) before being presented to this Council has made it difficult for amendments to be made. Will the Government present the bill on the Route 3
franchise to this Council for discussion before submitting it to the JLG to avoid the embarrassment caused if it has had gained the consent of the JLG before being submitted to this Council?
SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT: Mr President, for the Route 3 (Country Park Section) project we intend to follow the same procedures as that for the Western Harbour Crossing and indeed the enabling bill will be modelled much along that for the Western Harbour Crossing. Insofar as procedures are concerned, because this project will straddle 1997, both in terms of implementation and the financial expenses involved, it is sensible and practical to consult and inform the Chinese side. The Legislative Council will of course have the final say when the bill is presented to this Council.
MR LI WING-TAT (in Cantonese): Mr President, during the discussion of the Western Harbour Crossing franchise last year, the Government provided the operating company with a very high percentage return and a controversial automatic toll adjustment mechanism. One of the reasons, as explained by the Government, was that there was only one bidder and the Government had no other alternatives. Now, the Route 3 (Country Park Section) project has three very competitive bidders. Will the Government consider lowering the percentage return and abolishing the automatic toll adjustment mechanism in the franchise agreement? Thank you, Mr President.
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SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT: Mr President, in earlier briefings to the Legislative Council Transport Panel, I have made it quite clear, and the Administration has made it quite clear, that for a project of this magnitude the automatic toll adjustment mechanism must be the most practical way ahead. I do not think that any other system would attract bidders for a project of this order of costs. Insofar as the percentage return is concerned, I am sure the Honourable Member will appreciate that I cannot divulge that information today, but suffice it to say, as I have said in my main reply, that we have tried our best to negotiate the best possible deal and the details will be made available to Honourable Members in due course.
MRS MIRIAM LAU (in Cantonese): Mr President, the Secretary for Transport has admitted in his reply that there was a slight slippage in the timetable in the bidding procedures of the Route 3 project. Will the Secretary inform this Council who should be held responsible for the delay? Furthermore, does the Government have any means to prevent the delay of the entire Route 3 project?
SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT: Mr President, I do not think it is a question of apportioning blame for the delay. The negotiations have proved to be quite complex and as I have explained, it is because we have tried to achieve the best possible terms that we required more time in discussing details with the three bidders and it was only through this lengthy process that we have been able to identify and select the shortlisted tenderer with whom we are now into the final stages of negotiation. Despite this slight slippage of about six weeks, we do not expect the completion date to be delayed and as I have said, the Route 3 project should be completed by the end of 1998.
MR EDWARD HO: Mr President, my question has been asked already. Thank you very much.
MR WONG WAI-YIN (in Cantonese): Mr President, since the Route 3 (Country Park Section) project involves a 30-year franchise which straddles 1997, the consent of the Chinese side must be sought. Will the Secretary for Transport inform this Council whether the authority concerned has consulted the Chinese side on the Route 3 franchise? If not, when will the Government discuss this issue with the Chinese side? Besides, our view on the automatic toll adjustment mechanism and charging system of the Western Harbour Crossing differ substantially from the Government's. In this regard, will the Government communicate with this Council and obtain our consensus before presenting the bill?
PRESIDENT: There are two questions, Secretary.
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SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT: Thank you, Mr President. The answer to the first question is, yes, the Chinese side of the Joint Liaison Group has been informed and indeed they have been informed throughout this exercise at various stages of the studies and regarding the current stages of the negotiations. As I have explained, because this project straddles 1997, that is the practical way forward.
Insofar as the automatic toll adjustment mechanism is concerned and the actual tolls which will be levied, this will be part of the enabling bill and Members will have ample opportunity to discuss and debate that point.
MR HOWARD YOUNG (in Cantonese): Mr President, in paragraph two of his reply, the Secretary for Transport mentioned that the Government was "now in the final stages of negotiations with the shortlisted tenderer". The word he used is "shortlisted tenderer" which is in the singular instead of the plural form. Does it mean that there is only one shortlisted company? If that company is found to be unsatisfactory after detailed discussions, will it create a situation in which there is no back-up bidder with whom the Government can discuss in a bid to carry out the project?
SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT: Mr President, I confirm the Honourable Member's understanding. We are now only dealing with one tenderer, the one that has been shortlisted, but we have made it quite clear to this tenderer that this is subject to the successful outcome of our negotiations with the consortium. In the event — in the unlikely event — highly unlikely event — that we fail to reach agreement, the option is there for us to reopen negotiations with the other two tenderers.
DR TANG SIU-TONG (in Cantonese): Mr President, the Government has mentioned in paragraph two of its reply that the enabling bill for the grant of the franchise would be submitted to this Council in 1995. When does the Government expect the Route 3 project will commence?
SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT: Mr President, we have to have legislation in place before construction can commence because until legislation is enacted, the franchise cannot properly be executed. So I expect and I hope that we will be able to enact this legislation some time during the current Session. So the answer to Dr TANG's question is that hopefully by the middle of this year, at the latest, construction will commence.
MR STEVEN POON (in Cantonese): Mr President, thank you for letting me to raise a follow-up question. I am not satisfied with the Government's reply just given. According to the Secretary for Transport, the Legislative Council will
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have the final say. In fact, it is untrue, because it will be very difficult for this Council to repudiate any matter that has been agreed on by both countries through the Sino-British Joint Liaison Group (JLG). Can the Government, when discussing this item through the JLG, reach a consensus to the effect that the bill shall be presented to this Council or the public for consultation before it is to be finalized by China and Britain, so that the JLG will be informed of the views of this Council before giving its consent to the bill?
SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT: Mr President, I believe that the procedures have been well established for projects which straddle 1997 and we are following these procedures. The fact is that to implement this project we need legislation and it is within the power of this Council to enact the legislation, so the decision does rest with this Council.
Trespass in Public Housing Estates
5. TAM YIU-CHUNG asked (in Cantonese): Recently, there have been complaints from a number of elderly residents in public housing estates, especially those in Chai Wan Estate, that trouble-makers and drug-addicts follow them and intrude into their flats. Some of these undersirable elements even cook and eat inside the flats of these residents. In view of this, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) what measures have been put in place by the Police to deal with such trouble-makers; and
(b) whether consideration will be given to introducing legislation to safeguard the personal safety of these residents?
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY: Mr President, the police have not received any complaints about trouble-makers or drug addicts entering the homes of residents in public housing estates in Chai Wan.
As regards part (a) of the question, the police conduct regular patrols in public housing estates to help identify trouble-makers and prevent crime. Police officers work closely with the Housing Department and pay particular attention to estates where criminal activity is more prevalent. They also maintain contact with local communities and they advise residents of housing estates how to maintain home security and to encourage them to report crime to the police. If necessary, the police also increase uniform patrols and deploy plain-clothes officers in areas where trouble-makers or addicts congregate.
As regards part (b) of the question, the present legislation is considered to be adequate to deal with people causing a nuisance, stealing or burgling the
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homes of residents in public housing estates. There are no plans at present to introduce further legislation.
MR TAM YIU-CHUNG (in Cantonese): The Secretary for Security in his answer to part (b) of the question said that "the present legislation is considered to be adequate to deal with people causing a nuisance, stealing or burgling the homes of residents in public housing estates." However, if trouble-makers or drug-addicts trespass and refuse to leave but commit no theft, is the present legislation capable of dealing with them?
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY: Mr President, trespass by itself is not a crime, although certainly if people enter into someone else's home they may well be committing other crimes such as burglary, breaking and entering or theft. Nevertheless, if any resident reports such a case to the police, the police will assist him to ensure that his unwelcome guest leaves the premises. We do not feel it is necessary at present to consider making trespass a criminal offence.
PRESIDENT: Not answered, Mr TAM?
MR TAM YIU-CHUNG (in Cantonese): Mr President, the Secretary for Security has indeed answered my question but I am not satisfied with his answer. He said trespass was not a criminal offence. If there were such a situation as what happened recently at Governor Patten's house at Fanling where two expatriate reporters trespassed, how would the Administration deal with the nuisance caused to the Governor or other members of the public by trespassers?
PRESIDENT: I think you might confine your answer to the question of trespass, Secretary.
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY: Mr President, as I have said, although trespass is not in itself an offence, if anybody who has somebody trespassed in their home reports the matter to the police, the police will assist him to ensure that the person leaves.
MR MAN SAI-CHEONG (in Cantonese): Mr President, the electronic media have done a live coverage of the drug-addicts causing nuisance to residents in public housing estates in Chai Wan and the blatant activities of drug traffickers in these housing estates. The matter has attracted police attention. If Mr TAM's question is based on complaints from real cases, how would the Administration follow up the matter immediately to protect the individual's right to residence and to ensure safety of their property?
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SECRETARY FOR SECURITY: Mr President, yes, it is true that there have been problems with drug addicts in public housing estates in Chai Wan and both the police and the Housing Department have taken action to combat those. This has taken the form of joint police and Housing Department operations, it has taken the form of police and Housing Department attendance at mutual aid committee meetings to advise residents how to deal with such situations and how to report them, and it has also taken the form of physical measures taken by the Housing Department in estates. The information I have, the most recent assessment, is that this has actually made a considerable improvement in the situation in public housing estates in Chai Wan. And such action by the police and the Housing Department will continue.
MR JIMMY McGREGOR: Mr President, could the Secretary say whether the elderly complainants who provided this rather disturbing information to the press have been contacted by the police to obtain more details?
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY: Mr President, I do not know. As far as I know, no report has been made to the police; they do not have any information on who these complainants are but I will try and find out and give a reply in writing. (Annex II)
Mr JAMES TO (in Cantonese): Mr President, I want to follow up the Secretary for Security's point on police assistance. Since under the present legislation trespass is not a crime, residents, especially elderly residents, can only resort to self-remedy in law. If they are strong enough, they can throw the intruder out; if not, they will have to seek help from the security guards of the Housing Department or the police. However, in assisting residents to throw out the intruders, is the police carrying out the duties of the police force or that of a security guard or a bodyguard for the residents? I believe this is a rather throny question, but will the Secretary inform this Council whether, under such circumstances, the police is empowered to assist the elderly residents to throw out intruders from the premises and whether the police's action is lawful?
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY: Mr President, my understanding is that the police will assist the resident or the tenant of the public housing flat to ensure that the person, the intruder, leaves the premises.
MR FRED LI (in Cantonese): Mr President, I think it is more appropriate to use 'drug addicts' instead of 'dope fiend' in the question. I believe that housing estates other than in Chai Wan also face similar problems. Drug-addicts are often found having injections or storing drugs in public areas of public housing estates, including stairways in the upper floors. Will the Secretary for Security inform this Council whether the Administration has taken any special actions in
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conjuction with the Housing Department to combat drug addicts who were having injections or storing drugs in the upper floors?
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY: Mr President, I do not have any information on estates other than in Chai Wan, but I can confirm that part of the action taken by the Housing Department in the estates in Chai Wan is to patrol the common areas, to ensure that bedding and other paraphernalia are removed from the public areas, the stairways and so forth. And I am sure that this also takes place in any other public housing estates where this is a problem.
MR TAM YIU-CHUNG (in Cantonese): Thank you, Mr President. The Secretary for Security said in the first part of his answer that the police had not received any complaints. However, as far as I know, when residents lodged complaints with the police, the police usually asked the elderly complainants: "Do you know him? He is just dropping in to sit down for a while. There is no special problem with that. Owing to human rights considerations, the police cannot take any action.' These were the usual responses the complainants got. I feel the authenticity of the reply given under such circumstances that there had not been any complaints is questionable.
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY: Mr President, the police have assured me that they have received no such reports and that if they did receive such reports they would act upon them. They would act upon them in the way that I have indicated, that is, by helping the resident or tenant to ensure that the person leaves their premises. They cannot act after the event if
no criminal offence has been committed.
MR JIMMY McGREGOR: Mr President, I am very surprised to hear that somebody can enter your home, a private home, and trespass without committing an offence. What I wonder is, can the Secretary advise whether if such a person is ejected — with some force if necessary — constitutes an offence? Does the householder himself commit an offence? I think it is relevant to this question, Mr President.
PRESIDENT: Secretary, are you able to answer?
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY: The question is of course hypothetical, Mr President. I think it probably depends on the circumstances and the degree of force used, but I think that someone is entitled to remove someone from their premises.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 7 December 1994 1235 Access Service Inside Tunnels
6. MR HOWARD YOUNG asked: In regard to the licensing or franchise agreements for tunnels, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) whether such agreements have any stipulations for providing access to other utilities such as mobile phone companies and radio broadcasters to enable their signals to be received inside the tunnels; and
(b) whether, in cases where mobile phone operators are able to provide services inside the cross harbour tunnels, the cost for access for all such operators is determined on a fair and equal basis?
SECRETARY FOR ECONOMIC SERVICES: Mr President,
(a) The franchise agreements for privately built tunnels and the management contracts for government tunnels do not include stipulations specifically requiring the provision of access to other utilities, such as telephone companies and radio broadcasters, so as to enable their signals to be received inside the tunnels. In all cases, the prior approval of the Commissioner for Transport is required for the installation of such utilities in the tunnels. This requirement is for road and structural safety reasons.
(b) Agreements to enable mobile phone services to be provided inside tunnels are negotiated on a commercial basis between the mobile phone operators and the tunnel authorities. To ensure fair competition, mobile phone operators are prohibited under their licences from entering into any agreement or arrangement which has the effect of preventing or restricting competition in the provision of services. To date, the Telecommunications Authority has not received any complaint that a mobile phone operator is unable to provide services in the cross harbour tunnels or any other tunnels on a fair and equal basis. Appropriate action will be taken by the Telecommunications Authority under the licence conditions should it be discovered that a particular operator has entered into an exclusive agreement with the tunnel authority which has the effect of discriminating against other operators.
MR HOWARD YOUNG (in Cantonese): Mr President, from the reply of the Secretary for Economic Services, it seems that the responsibility of maintaining fair competition rests with the mobile phones licencees, and this can be seen from the licensing conditions. However, the tunnel operators do not have to bear any responsibility in this aspect. Owing to changes in the current market, there are obvious signs indicating that some operating groups of tunnel
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 7 December 1994 1236
companies intend to offer mobile phone services. Or, as the Route 3 just mentioned, its bidders may well be operating mobile phone services in the future. May I ask the Secretary for Economic Services if he would consider incorporating the same conditions as those applied to the telephone companies into the licenses granted to the future or existing tunnel companies to ensure that this kind of services can be provided on the basis of fair competition?
SECRETARY FOR ECONOMIC SERVICES: Mr President, no company or organization can provide a mobile phone service without obtaining the requisite licence from the Telecommunications Authority and such a licence would only be granted if that company or organization met the prerequisite qualifications, be they both technical and financial, for providing such a service.
I think the question also touches on the question of the terms of the actual franchise agreements with tunnel operators, and with your permission I would refer that part of the question to my colleague the Secretary for Transport.
SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT: Mr President, I think the initiative for seeking mobile phone connections in the tunnel rests with the companies concerned. All that is required now is for them to seek the consent of the Commissioner for Transport. My colleague, the Secretary for Economic Services, has explained that the Telecommunications Authority in fact has some vetting rules and insofar as legislation is concerned, section 45 of the Cross Harbour Tunnel Ordinance makes it quite clear that the exercise of any services for companies requires the prior approval of the Commissioner. So I think, in short, the initiative rests with the companies concerned.
MR HOWARD YOUNG: Mr President, I think the thrust of my supplementary has been slightly misunderstood. What I was saying is that there are indications now that operators of current and future tunnels, the same group, do have firm plans to establish mobile telephone services in Hong Kong, whereas previously this did not exist. The thrust of my question was that I was worried whether a situation would arise where the tunnel operators would deliberately favour one mobile telephone operator versus another because of their parent-to-subsidiary company relationships. The only way to fix that would be to put terms on the tunnel operator's licence, not just the telephone operator's licence.
SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT: Mr President, I do not think such a provision is necessary because at the end of the day, as I have said, the permission of the Commissioner for Transport is required. If any applicant feels that he is being unfairly treated this can be taken up with the Commissioner. I think insofar as the tunnels are concerned, and the new tunnels in particular, the facility for having cables and other connections will be there,
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 7 December 1994 1237
so technically it will be possible to have these services and it is up to the operator to apply for this.
MR JAMES TO (in Cantonese): Mr President, I would like to follow up on Mr Howard YOUNG's question. In the first paragraph of his reply, the Secretary for Economic Services pointed out that the Government did not, in fact, include stipulations requiring the provision of access to other utilities when granting the licences. He also pointed out in the second paragraph that negotiations had to be made with the companies on a commercial basis. Will the Government consider that the electric wave in the atmosphere which passes through tunnels remains within the public area instead of limiting the possibility of providing such services within the scope of the franchise and having it granted to a franchised company? An extreme case is that such company can even block out the broadcasting of certain important messages or public-related messages within the tunnels. May I ask whether such right should be retained to allow the Government to give approval?
SECRETARY FOR ECONOMIC SERVICES: Mr President, I am not aware that at present there is any problem at all either with radio broadcasters or with mobile phone operators gaining access to tunnels. Indeed as I said in my main answer, there has been no complaint received by the Telecommunications Authority on this score. At the present time, a number of mobile phone operators already do have access to the tunnels. For example, one phone operator has access to all the government and private tunnels. Another major operator already has access to most of the existing government and private tunnels and is, I understand, in the process of applying for permission to gain access to the remainder. The same is also the situation in respect of the remaining two mobile cellular operators.
Also, in the case of radio broadcasters, in most cases the cost of piping broadcast signals into the tunnels is paid for by the tunnel operator, be it the private operator or the contractor in the government tunnel. Again, all channels broadcasting are widely available in tunnels as of now. Where there are restrictions, it is mainly to do with limitations on the capacity of the cable running through the tunnel and it is not the result of any discrimination against any particular broadcaster or operator.
PRESIDENT: Not answered, Mr TO?
MR JAMES TO (in Cantonese): Mr President, the thrust of my question is whether the Government has consciously considered that the franchise includes the right to send connection signals in the tunnels for profit making. Is this the original intention of the Government? If so, I can then understand the Government's thinking.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 7 December 1994 1238
SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT: Mr President, I think the present arrangements provide for the necessary options for operators to seek to install mobile phones or other broadcasting signals. But obviously, in view of the fact that several Members have spoken on this subject, I am quite happy to look at the franchise terms and agreements for the new tunnel companies to see whether this particular area needs to be tightened up.
MR PETER WONG: Mr President, is it really desirable or indeed to be encouraged that hand-held mobile phones be used by drivers whilst the vehicle is in motion, particularly in a congested tunnel?
SECRETARY FOR ECONOMIC SERVICES: Mr President, I do not think it should be construed that the availability of this service encourages individuals to make use of it. This is obviously a matter of personal responsibility. There are of course many phones within cars now which are hands-free phones and which can benefit from the availability of the service within tunnels.
MR STEVEN POON (in Cantonese): Mr President, the Government just said that it did not realize there was any problem as no one had made any complaints. I believe what it referred to is there have been no complaints from operators or radio broadcasters. However, as many drivers know, many broadcasting signals are impossible of reception after vehicles enter the tunnels. For instance, they have to keep switching channels when listening to news or stocks reports, and in the end they will miss some of the information. Actually, the tunnel companies still reserve a "magic weapon" which enable the companies to use the broadcasting channels if they wish to make an announcement. Sometimes, even the news we are listening to is interrupted by the announcement made by the tunnel companies. As at present, no such requirements are included in the franchise agreements, so will the Government reconsider amending the agreements? And will the new terms be incorportated into the agreements for the new tunnels, such as the one for the Western Harbour Crossing to the effect that the tunnel companies must broadcast all radio channels in Hong Kong? Thank you, Mr President.
SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT: Mr President, I believe that the instance of interruptions in the tunnels is much less now than before and the technology now provides for mobile phones and for drivers who are listening to radios to receive the broadcasts with much less interruption. I think as I said earlier in response to Members' questions, I am quite happy to look at the franchise conditions to see if they can be tightened up. Obviously, in respect of existing franchises, this will have to be with the agreement of the franchisees, but for new tunnels we can certainly look at this.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 7 December 1994 1239 WRITTEN ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
Parking Spaces Converted for Other Uses
7. MR STEVEN POON asked (in Chinese): Parking spaces in the car parks of some buildings have been converted by their owners into fully enclosed storerooms, rendering it impossible for the management offices of these buildings to check whether any prohibited or dangerous goods are kept inside such storerooms. In view of this, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) whether the conversion of a parking space into such use is an offence;
(b) which government department should complaints about such conversion be lodged;
(c) how the department concerned will handle such complaints; and
(d) whether any such complaints have been received in the past 12 months; and if so, what is the outcome in each of the complaints?
SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS: Mr President,
(a) Unauthorized conversion of a parking space for other uses may be an offence under the Buildings Ordinance or a breach of the lease conditions if there are specific provisions in the lease requiring specific areas within the building to be designated for parking purposes or both. The storage of dangerous goods is controlled by the Dangerous Goods Ordinance.
(b) Complaints can be directed to the Buildings Department on unauthorized building works, Lands Department on breach of lease conditions and the Fire Services Department on the storage of dangerous goods.
(c) The Buildings Department wil ladvise the owner concerned to remove unauthorized building works. Enforcement action will be taken under the Buildings Ordinance in cases where unauthorized building works threaten imminent danger to life or property, are still under construction or have just been completed or constitute a major contravention of the Buildings Ordinance. Where the conversion constitutes a breach of lease conditions, the Lands Department will issue a warning letter requiring the owner to purge the breach within a specified period. If the owner fails to take action, the lot may be re-entered under the Crown Rights (Re-entry
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 7 December 1994 1240
and Vesting Remedies) Ordinance. Under the Dangerous Goods Ordinance, the Fire Services Department can take action against the illegal storage of dangerous goods, including seizure of the goods and legal action against those responsible.
(d) In the past 12 months, there have been a total of nine cases of unauthorized conversion of parking spaces for other uses. Reinstatement work has been done in two cases; warning letters have been issued in three cases; and investigation of the remaining four continues. None of these cases involved the storage of dangerous goods.
Extra Land for Housing
8. DR DAVID LI asked: In his recent policy address, the Governor stated that an extra 70 hectares of land would be granted for housing before 1997-98, subject to the agreement of the Sino-British Land Commission. In view of this, will the Government inform this Council of the respective percentage of land that will be allocated to private developers and public use?
SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS: Mr President, of the extra 70 hectares of land for housing which the Government will provide before 1997-98 subject to the agreement of the Land Commission, about 67% will be allocated for public housing, including the Sandwich Class Housing Scheme, and about 33% for private housing.
Redevelopment of Shek Lei Estate
9. MR FREDERICK FUNG asked (in Chinese): It is learnt that Block 10 of Shek Lei Estate has been included in the Housing Authority's Five Year Redevelopment Programme and is scheduled for clearance in 1996/97. Will the Government inform this Council:
(a) of the month in 1996/97 in which Shek Lei Estate will be cleared;
(b) whether the tenants of Shek Lei Estate have been formally notified by the Housing Department of the date of clearance; and
(c) of the reasons for not placing Shek Lei Estate in the list of estates for rent increase in the recently published "Rent Review for Group B and Former Low-cost Housing Estates"?
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 7 December 1994 1241
SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS: Mr President, Shek Lei Estate Block 10 has been included in the Housing Authority's current Five Year Comprehensive Redevelopment Programme and its clearance is scheduled for October 1996. A formal announcement on the redevelopment of Shek Lei Block 10 was made on 30 November 1994.
Under Housing Authority policy, flats whose redevelopment is announced prior to the implementation of a rent increase exercise will not be affected by the increase and rents will be frozen at levels prevailing on the date of the announcement of redevelopment. Shek Lei Estate Block 10 was therefore excluded from the rent increase exercise implemented on 1 December 1994.
Tseung Kwan O Hospital
10. DR CONRAD LAM asked (in Chinese): Regarding the Government's decision to build a hospital at Tseung Kwan O, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) of the estimated cost of the project;
(b) how the Hospital Authority will acquire resources to finance the project, and whether the project will affect other development or improvement programmes of the Hospital Authority; and
(c) when the blueprint for the project will be submitted by the relevant department?
SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE: Mr President, following announcement by the Governor in his 1994 policy address of our intention to go ahead with the construction of a new hospital in Tseung Kwan O, the Hospital Authority is finalizing a detailed project scope, based on which an estimate of the capital expenditure will be worked out.
The Government will provide the Hospital Authority with sufficient funds to finance this new hospital project. This project will not affect other development or improvement programmes of the Authority, and we are planning to seek the Finance Committee's approval for the necessary funding in 1995.
Car Loans
11. MR ERIC LI asked (in Chinese): Will the Government inform this Council of the following:
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 7 December 1994 1242
(a) whether the Government has obtained information on car loans granted by banks and financial institutions through statistical surveys or other means; if so, how many cases of mortgage loans on various types of cars have been granted by banks and financial institutions in the past three years, and what are the average and maximum ratios of the loan amount to the price of the car;
(b) whether, if the information mentioned in (a) above is not available, the Government will request banks and financial institutions to supply information on various types of car loans, so as to have a clear picture about the activities of this loan market and its relationship with the recent sharp increase in the number of cars; and
(c) whether the Government will consider requesting the Hong Kong Association of Banks to issue guidelines on the granting of car loans to tighten the percentage of mortgage loan, so as to suppress the growth in the number of cars; if not, what the reasons are?
SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES: Mr President,
(a) The quarterly returns by institutions authorized under the Banking Ordinance to the Hong Kong Monetary Authority (HKMA) capture statistics on loans to finance the purchase of "transport and transport equipment" with breakdowns by "shipping", "taxis and public light buses" and "others". Loans to finance the purchase of private cars should account for a significant portion of the amounts reported under the "others" category, but the exact extent cannot be verified. The amounts of loans outstanding under the "taxis and public light buses" and "others" categories as at the end of September 1992, 1993 and 1994 are as follows:
30.9.92 30.9.93 +/(-) 30.9.94 +/(-)
($bn) ($bn) % ($bn) %
Taxis and public light buses
11.1 12.2 9.9 13.8 13.1
Others 33.1 39.5 19.3 40.7 3.0 ------ ----- -----
Total 44.2 51.7 17.0 54.5 5.4 ==== ==== ====
Exposure of the banking sector to car loan business only accounts for a small proportion (4.5% at end September 1994) of the sector's total domestic loans, but it should be noted that statistics of car loan
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 7 December 1994 1243
business of other non-bank financial institutions are not collected by the HKMA. The above figures, therefore, do not represent all car loans granted by financial institutions in Hong Kong.
The quarterly returns to the HKMA does not capture data on the number of loans granted by authorized institutions to finance the purchase of vehicles specifically. Nor is the lending ratio of such loans covered.
(b) Prudential returns to the HKMA are one of the tools through which the Monetary Authority ensures prudent management of authorized institutions, hence stability of the banking system. There is no plan to require authorized institutions to provide more information about their activities in car loan business since there is not direct prudential concern in such business.
(c) The Government will not request the Hong Kong Association of Banks to issue guidelines to the banks for the purpose of suppressing the growth in the number of cars since this is not something which gives rise to prudential concern or has any implications on the stability of the banking system.
Potent Herbs in Chinese Medicines
12. DR HUANG CHEN-YA asked (in Chinese): In view of the presence of potent herbs in more than a hundred proprietary Chinese medicines in common use, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) how many proprietary Chinese medicines available for sale in the territory contain potent herbs;
(b) whether the Government will require manufacturers of these medicines to use labels, explanatory notes and other means to caution the public about the presence of such ingredients;
(c) whether the sale of these medicines will be brought under control; and
(d) whether public hospitals are equipped with relevant data to handle incidents of toxication from Chinese medicines?
SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE: Mr President, at present, proprietary Chinese medicines are not required by law to be registered. There are, therefore, no records of the composition of proprietary Chinese medicines.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 7 December 1994 1244
However, the Government Laboratory has been compiling a database of the labelled composition of proprietary Chinese medicines since November 1993. To date, 252 samples have been examined, 18 of which were labelled to contain potent herbs which are listed in a recently published Report of the Working Party on Chinese Medicine (WPCM).
The WPCM Report, endorsed by the Government, has recommended, inter alia, that proprietary Chinese medicine should be registered so that permission would be required to import them. Details of such regulation, including any labelling requirements, would need to be worked out by a statutory body to be established. Meanwhile, enforcement of existing legislation governing fitness for consumption, adulteration and advertising of Chinese medicines would follow through.
Whenever any suspected cases of toxication from Chinese medicines are discovered in public hospitals, the Hospital Authority documents the signs and symptoms of the toxication, treatment thereof and the toxicology of the Chinese medicines concerned. This information is circulated within the Hospital Authority in order to raise the awareness of the professional staff in public hospitals and better equip them to handle complications arising from the use of Chinese medicines.
The Hospital Authority has also built up a channel with the Chinese Medicinal Materials Research Centre of the Chinese University of Hong Kong to widen the net of information.
Mongolian Visitors
13. MR MOSES CHENG asked (in Chinese): Will the Government inform this Council:
(a) how do the current fees charged and the time taken for processing applications for visas from Mongolian visitors coming to the territory for sightseeing or business purposes compare with those required for processing applications for visas to visit Mongolia from local residents; and
(b) whether the Government will consider negotiating with the Mongolian Government to reach an agreement on reciprocal exemption of visa requirements for visitors, so as to promote the economic and trading relationships between the two places?
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY: Mr President,
(a) Nationals of Mongolia require visas to visit Hong Kong; these are issued for a stay of not more than 14 days in Hong Kong.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 7 December 1994 1245
Applications may be made to the nearest British visa post. The fees are £20 (about HK$240) for a single visit visa and £30 (about HK$360) for a multi visit visa, plus a handling charge of £5 (about HK$60). The processing time is about three working days.
We understand from the local Mongolian Honorary Consul that visas are also required for local residents who wish to visit Mongolia. The fee for a tourist visit visa for Mongolia costs US$60 (about $468) and the processing time is about three days. Applications are handled through a travel agency. Business visas cost US$35 (about $273) and the processing time is about one week; for urgent issue, the cost is US$45 (about $351). Business visa applications are handled through the Honorary Consul of Mongolia.
(b) We have no present plans to negotiate with the Mongolian Government reciprocal exemption of visa requirements. We would, however, be willing to consider such an arrangement.
Immigration Queues at Airport
14. MR MARTIN BARROW asked: Is the Government aware of the growing number of complaints lodged by visitors about immigration queues at the Hong Kong International Airport? If so, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) how many additional immigration staff have been approved in 1994 and how does this figure compare with the number requested by the Director of Immigration;
(b) how many booths exist and what percentage of them are staffed at different times of the day; and
(c) whether it is updating its performance pledges so as to reduce the level of complaints?
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY: Mr President, we are aware of complaints, but these should be considered in context. 16.5 million passengers used the airport during the first 10 months of 1994; during this period we received 43 complaints about the immigration service at the airport, of which 11 concerned the long waiting time and 18 the shortage of manpower.
(a) As stated in the Policy Commitments in the Governor's address, 50 additional staff will be allocated to the Immigration Department Airport Division in 1995-96.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 7 December 1994 1246
(b) There are 166 immigration counters at the airport, 90 at the arrival level and 76 at the departure level. The counters are in operation from 6.15 am to midnight. Immigration staff are deployed to man up to 80% of the counters during the following peak hours of the day:
Arrival Departure
9.00 am - 10.00 am 9.00 am - 10.00 am
1.00 pm - 3.00 pm 11.00 am - 4.00 pm
6.00 pm - 9.00 pm 7.00 pm - 10.00 pm
At exceptionally busy periods, additional staff are redeployed from other divisions of the department to man all the counters.
At non-peak operational hours, about 54% of the counters are staffed; only a skeleton staff is on duty overnight.
(c) The Immigration Department reviews its performance pledges regularly, to ensure that the Department's service has not fallen behind public expectations. The present pledge is to clear 92% of passengers within a waiting time of 30 minutes. In the first 10 months of 1994, 99.84% of departing passengers, and 86.59% of arriving passengers were cleared within 30 minutes. The achievement for arriving passengers is not satisfactory. The additional staff approved for 1995-96 should help to improve this performance, as should the recent installation of optical character readers at the airport.
Subject Preference in Colleges of Education
15. MR CHEUNG MAN-KWONG asked (in Chinese): With regard to the general decrease in the number of students enrolling for cultural, practical and technical subjects in the colleges of education, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) of the breakdown of the actual number of students enrolled in, and the number of available places offered for, each of these subjects in the past three years, together with the corresponding figures for the current academic year;
(b) whether the authority concerned has carried out any investigation into the causes for the decrease in the enrolment in these subjects; if so, whether they are related to the cancellation of interviews in this year's students intake exercise and whether consideration will be given to undertaking a review of the matter;
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 7 December 1994 1247
(c) of the number of teachers in each of these subjects last year; how many of them have received training and what is the mode of their training, and how many have received full-time or short-term training in the subjects concerned; and
(d) whether the Administration regards the phenomenon that teachers without any training or with short-term training are teaching these subjects in the colleges of education to be a serious matter; and whether any measures will be adopted to improve the situation, so that a balanced and all-embracing development in the teaching of all subjects in primary and secondary schools is achieved?
SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER: Mr President, statistics on the number of students who selected cultural, practical and technical subjects in the academic years 1991-92 to 1994-95 in the former Colleges of Education and the Hong Kong Institute of Education, together with the planned maximum capacity for the respective subjects are set out at Appendix I. It should be noted that both the former Colleges of Education and the Hong Kong Institute of Education adopt a flexible approach in determining the number of classes offering such subjects. Students are admitted to these subjects according to their preferences and qualifications.
The enrolment situation for 1994-95 generally compares favourably with that for the preceding two years, although the enrolment figures for some subjects, for example, Home Economics and Design and Technology have decreased. The fluctuation simply reflects relatively fewer students selecting the subjects concerned this year. It is unrelated to the cancellation of interviews by the Hong Kong Institute of Education in their selection process last September. The Institute will, however, shortly review the 1994 admission policy and procedure with a view to achieving a more even distribution of student enrolment across different cultural and practical subjects.
Statistics on the number of teachers who taught cultural, practical and technical subjects in 1993-94, with a breakdown on their training are set out at Appendix II. The majority of the subject-trained teachers are non-graduates and most of them have been trained either through a full-time pre-service or a part-time in-service teacher education programme.
The Government considers it undesirable to have untrained or inadequately trained teachers teaching any subject. It actively encourages all untrained teachers, including those in the subjects concerned, to become fully trained through in-service teacher education programmes.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 7 December 1994 1248 Appendix I
Colleges of Education/Hong Kong Institute of Education
Number of Students Who Selected Cultural/Practical/Technical Subjects
Academic Year (position as at 30 September)
Planned
Subjects 1991-92 1992-93 1993-94 1994-95
maximum capacity
Art and Design 250 255 256 275 270 Home Economics 82 64 66 44 120 Music 139 136 123 147 270 Physical Education 507 359 348 380 540 Design and Technology 29 25 20 16 45 Commerce 97 103 95 83 90 Technical Drawing 5 8 12 12 45 Total 1 109 950 920 957 1 380
Source: Data from Education Department and Hong Kong Institute of Education 6 December 1994
Appendix II
Statistics on Teachers Teaching Cultural, Practical, and Technical Subjects, 1993-94 Subject Subject-trained Non-subject-trained Total Art and Design 501 25 526 Home Economics 324 40 364 Music 347 32 379 Physical Education 753 27 780 Design and Technology 265 41 306 Commerce 271 177 448 Technical Drawing 17 15 32 Total 2 478 357 2 835
Source: Data from Education Department
6 December 1994
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 7 December 1994 1249 Video on Demand Service
16. MR ALBERT CHAN asked (in Chinese): Will the Government inform this Council of the following:
(a) how it will determine whether the nature of Video On Demand (VOD) services comes under the scope of telecommunications or broadcasting; and
(b) whether it will consider regulating programme transmitted through the VOD technology?
SECRETARY FOR ECONOMIC SERVICES: Mr President, Video-On-Demand (VOD) is a new form of interactive home entertainment and information service being tried out in different parts of the world including Hong Kong. VOD may include video programmes, films, documentaries, karaoke songs, computer games and many forms of information services (such as newspapers, magazines, reference books, encyclopedia and so on).
Unlike broadcasting where programmes are transmitted simultaneously to a mass audience, VOD is a point-to-point transmission service where the programme or information requested is selected by an individual and transmitted to his or her home on request. VOD subscribers will be able to select from a printed or on-screen menu and order the programme of their choice by telephone or a remote control unit provided by the VOD service provider. The video signals will then be transmitted to the subscriber's home through the public telecommunication network to be viewed on a normal television set with the assistance of a special decoder supplied by the VOD operator. To prevent unauthorized access, a Personal Identification Number (PIN) security system may be installed in the decoder.
Similar to other point-to-point telecommunication services (telephone, fax, electronic mail, and so on), the conveyance of VOD will be classified as a telecommunication service and subject to licensing under the Telecommunication Ordinance. Like many other overseas governments, the Hong Kong Government is considering how best to regulate the service provision aspect of VOD, including controls over the contents of transmissions.
Lighting System at Tai Tam Dam
17. MR JIMMY McGREGOR asked: In regard to the lighting system at the Tai Tam dam, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) of the cost of the lighting equipment as well as the cost of its installation on the wall of the narrow road on the dam;
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 7 December 1994 1250
(b) of the number of lights installed together with the number damaged by vehicles since their installation, and what is the cost of repairing the damaged lights;
(c) whether the design of this lighting system has been found inadequate and expensive; and
(d) whether this system will be modified so that the lights are moved to a safer distance from the traffic on the narrow road on the dam?
SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT: Mr President,
(a) The cost of the lighting equipment on the road over Tai Tam dam was $180,000. Installation cost a further $92,000.
(b) There are 61 fluorescent light fittings installed on the dam. 12 have been damaged by vehicles since their installation was completed in March this year. The cost of repair was $9,000.
(c) The system meets the lighting standard for this type of road. A conventional lighting system is not feasible in this location due to space constraints, but it is believed that based on the length of the dam such a system would have cost about $182,000 (including installation). In the circumstances, the cost of the non-standard system is considered reasonable.
(d) To reduce the risk of further damage to the lights, the system was modified on 26 November 1994 by setting back all fittings by a further 300 mm.
Theft at Chek Lap Kok Site
18. MRS SELINA CHOW asked: In regard to reports of theft at the new airport construction site in Chek Lap Kok, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) of the respective number of reports of theft lodged by contractors working on the site and villagers living in the area in the past three years; and
(b) what measures have been taken by the Government to prevent such losses, and with what results?
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 7 December 1994 1251 SECRETARY FOR SECURITY: Mr President,
(a) Statistics on the reports of theft at the new airport construction site at Chek Lap Kok are confined to those lodged by contractors; no villagers have lived on the site for the past three years. There have been five cases of reported theft since 1992. Details are as follows:
Year Number of thefts
1992 Nil
1993 3
1994 2
(up to present)
(b) The police maintain close liaison with the Provisional Airport Authority, which is responsible for security at the Chek Lap Kok new airport site, which is a private construction site.
The Provisional Airport Authority maintains its own force of approximately 50 security staff which ensures that there is 24-hour security coverage of the whole island of Chek Lap Kok. The Authority provides regular patrols, maintains observation posts as appropriate and imposes strict access control to the site. The Authority works closely with the police, through regular meetings and liaison on operational matters.
The Provisional Airport Authority also arranges talks and briefings for all staff and contractors on the site during which topics such as prevention of theft, general security and anti-triad measures are discussed by the Authority's own security staff and police officers.
The few incidents involving theft which have occurred on the new airport site are not major and have been reported to and dealt with by the police in the normal manner.
Public Car Park Monthly Ticket Sale
19. MR WONG WAI-YIN asked (in Chinese): In view of the large number of people queuing overnight when monthly tickets of some public car parks are put on sale, will the Government inform this Council of the following:
(a) how it can prevent unlawful elements from queuing up to obtain tickets and resell them at increased prices and harassing people in the queue;
(b) how many policemen have to be deployed each time to maintain order; and
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 7 December 1994 1252
(c) whether consideration will be given to replacing the existing arrangement of selling tickets on a 'first-come-first-served' basis by other means such as balloting; if so, when such measure will be implemented; if not, what the reasons are?
SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT: Mr President,
(a) The present arrangements and procedures for the sale of monthly parking tickets are well understood and work very satisfactorily. There have been no major problems. In fact, queuing overnight for such tickets is unnecessary since the available allocation at most government car parks is not taken up fully.
The tickets bear the registration number of the vehicle. Spot checks are carried out by staff of the car park management companies. This helps to ensure that they are not resold.
Earlier this year, problems arose during the sale of quarterly parking tickets at the Government's car park in Shau Kei Wan. Since then, a decision has been taken to abolish quarterly tickets.
(b) The Transport Department advises the police in advance of the dates for selling monthly tickets. As part of their normal duties, patrolling police monitor the queuing arrangements when tickets are being sold. If necessary, they would request reinforcements. In addition, the companies deploy extra staff during sales periods, to ensure that ticket sales are conducted in an orderly manner.
(c) The Transport Department conducted a survey in November to seek the views of car park users on the method of selling monthly parking tickets. The results showed that over 80% of users were satisfied with the existing method of sale. In view of this, we do not intend altering the "first-come first-served" arrangement. Nonetheless the situation will be kept under regular review and changes will be considered if necessary.
Red Public Light Buses
20. MR LEE WING-TAT asked (in Chinese): According to the existing policy, only operators of red public light buses (PLBs) are eligible to operate green PLBs which run on approved scheduled routes. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) how many red PLBs have been converted to green PLBs annually over the past ten years;
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 7 December 1994 1253
(b) whether it will consider converting more red PLBs to green PLBs each year; and
(c) whether it will consider allowing non-franchised PLB operators to tender for the operation of green PLBs so as to encourage more passengers (especially private car owners) to travel on PLBs?
SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT: Mr President, under existing policy, any person or company may apply to operate green minibus (GMB) routes. There is no prerequisite for the applicant to be an existing operator of red minibus (RMB) or green minibus services.
In the past 10 years, the total number of GMBs has increased from 937 in 1984 to 1 710 in 1994. Details are annexed.
It is government policy to encourage the conversion of red minibuses to green minibuses. Continued efforts will be made to speed up the conversion by identifying more green minibus routes, taking into account the road system, housing developments, passenger demand and the availability of alternative public transport services. The pace of conversion is, nevertheless, dependent on the availability of suitable routes, which have to be sufficiently attractive to the prospective operators without duplicating existing franchised bus and green minibus routes.
Non-RMB or GMB operators are allowed to apply for the right to operate GMB services. However, applicants must be able to deploy an adequate number of vehicles for the routes they apply for. Since the policy has long been to restrict the size of the minibus fleet to the present size of 4 350, this in practice means that an applicant who is not already an RMB or GMB operator will have to purchase or hire the required fleet from existing operators. Recent conversion exercises have always attracted a large number of applications.
Annex
No. of RMBs
Year
converted into GMBs No. of GMBs
1984 115 937 1985 93 1 030 1986 112 1 142 1987 80 1 222 1988 67 1 289
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 7 December 1994 1254 No. of RMBs
Year
converted into GMBs No. of GMBs
1989 6 1 295 1990 65 1 360 1991 110 1 470 1992 61 1 531 1993 89 1 620
1994 90 1 710 (until 31 October 94)
MOTION
INLAND REVENUE ORDINANCE
THE SECRETARY FOR THE TREASURY moved the following motion:
"That Part II of Schedule 6 to the Inland Revenue Ordinance be amended by adding -
"8. The European Company for the Financing of Railroad Rolling Stock."." He said: Mr President, I move the resolution standing in my name in the Order Paper.
To enhance Hong Kong's status as an international financial centre and to encourage the development of our capital market, Members approved amendments to the Inland Revenue Ordinance in April 1992 to exempt from profits tax the profits arising from Hong Kong dollar-denominated debt instruments issued by certain credit-worthy multilateral agencies. In addition, Members approved amendments to the Stamp Duty Ordinance to exempt such instruments from stamp duty. Schedule 6 to the Inland Revenue Ordinance specifies the agencies which are so exempt.
The first four multilateral agencies to benefit from such exemptions are the Asian Development Bank, the International Bank for Reconstruction and Development, the International Finance Corporation and the European Investment Bank. In December 1993, Members approved the extension of these exemptions to another three multilateral agencies. They are the European Bank for Reconstruction and Development, the Inter-American Development Bank
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and the Nordic Investment Bank. The Inland Revenue Ordinance provides that the Council may make additions to the list of exempt institutions by resolution.
I now propose to add the European Company for the Financing of Railroad Rolling Stock (or EUROFIMA for short) to the list. Like the seven institutions whose Hong Kong dollar-denominated debt instruments now enjoy exemption from profits tax and stamp duty, EUROFIMA is a multilateral body with top credit ratings. It has indicated interest in issuing Hong Kong dollar-denominated debt instruments in our market. We could enhance their attractiveness to investors by granting them exemptions from profits tax and stamp duty. This would contribute to the expansion of the Hong Kong dollar market and our capital market. It would also further promote Hong Kong's development as an international financial centre.
Mr President, I beg to move.
Question on the motion proposed, put and agreed to.
BILLS
First Reading of Bills
IMPORT AND EXPORT (AMENDMENT) (NO. 2) BILL 1994
INDUSTRIAL TRAINING (CLOTHING INDUSTRY) (AMENDMENT) BILL 1994 SHIPPING (MISCELLANEOUS POWERS) BILL 1994
RATING (AMENDMENT) BILL 1994
POLYTECHNICS (CONSEQUENTIAL AMENDMENTS) BILL 1994
Bills read the First time and ordered to be set down for Second Reading pursuant to Standing Order 41(3).
Second Reading of Bills
IMPORT AND EXPORT (AMENDMENT) (NO. 2) BILL 1994
THE SECRETARY FOR TRADE AND INDUSTRY moved the Second Reading of: "A Bill to amend the Import and Export Ordinance."
He said: Mr President, I move the Second Reading of the Import and Export (Amendment) (No. 2) Bill 1994
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This Bill, together with the Industrial Training (Clothing Industry) (Amendment) Bill 1994 which I will move later, seeks to provide the necessary legal backing for the use of information technology in applications for restrained textiles export licences and in the lodging of import and export declarations.
Through Tradelink, a private company in which the Government is the major shareholder, the Community Electronic Trading Service will be launched in 1996. The objective of this service is to adopt information technology such as electronic data interchange to facilitate the conduct of international trade by Hong Kong's business community, thereby furthering the economic interests of Hong Kong. Initially, the business community will be able to use the service in applying for restrained textiles export licences and in lodging import and export declarations.
The proposed amendments make it possible for further technology to be used also in conducting business specified under the Import and Export Ordinance in respect of these two documents.
Bill referred to the House Committee pursuant to Standing Order 42(3A).
INDUSTRIAL TRAINING (CLOTHING INDUSTRY) (AMENDMENT) BILL 1994
THE SECRETARY FOR TRADE AND INDUSTRY moved the Second Reading of: "A Bill to amend the Industrial Training (Clothing Industry) Ordinance."
He said: Mr President, I move the Second Reading of the Industrial Training (Clothing Industry) (Amendment) Bill 1994.
The background to this Bill was explained when I moved the Second Reading of the Import and Export (Amendment) (No. 2) Bill 1994 just now.
The proposed amendments make it possible for information technology to be used in lodging export declarations in respect of certain clothing items required under the Industrial Training (Clothing Industry) Ordinance.
Bill referred to the House Committee pursuant to Standing Order 42(3A).
SHIPPING (MISCELLANEOUS POWERS) BILL 1994
THE SECRETARY FOR ECONOMIC SERVICES moved the Second Reading of: "A Bill to amend the Port Control (Cargo Working Areas) Ordinance, the Shipping and Port Control Ordinance, the Merchant Shipping (Prevention and Control of Pollution) Ordinance and the Merchant Shipping (Liability and Compensation for Oil Pollution) Ordinance."
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She said: Mr President, I move that the Shipping (Miscellaneous Powers) Bill be read the Second time.
The purpose of the Bill is to transfer certain minor administrative or operational powers, which are currently vested in the Governor either to the Secretary for Economic Services, or to the Director of Marine. These powers relate to:
(a) designating public cargo working areas, public water fronts or excluded water fronts;
(b) declaring any area of the waters of Hong Kong to be a port;
(c) declaring any area of the waters of Hong Kong to be an area closed to dwelling vessels and within which no dwelling vessel may enter or remain;
(d) giving directions to ships involved in shipping casualties so as to prevent or reduce pollution by oil or other hazardous substances; and specifying what these hazardous substances are; and
(e) specifying the international safety conventions with which a ship must comply in order to satisfy the requirements of the International Convention on the Establishment of an International Fund for Compensation for Oil Pollution Damage.
Mr President, the exercise of the powers described above does not give rise to any major political, legal or resource implications. We consider that there is no reason why they need to be vested in the Governor personally.
With a view to relieving the Governor of involvement in relatively minor administrative details, we propose that the above powers should be transferred either to the Secretary for Economic Services or to the Director of Marine as specified in the Bill. In so doing, we aim to streamline administration and achieve better efficiency in handling operational matters.
Bill referred to the House Committee pursuant to Standing Order 42(3A).
RATING (AMENDMENT) BILL 1994
THE SECRETARY FOR THE TREASURY moved the Second Reading of: "A Bill to amend the Rating Ordinance."
He said: Mr President, I move that the Rating (Amendment) Bill 1994 be read the Second time.
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The Bill now before Members has three main purposes. First, it seeks to transfer the responsibility for rates billing and collection from the Director of Accounting Services to the Commissioner of Rating and Valuation. Secondly, it abolishes half-refunds of rates for vacant non-domestic properties. Thirdly, it proposes a number of amendments to streamline the procedures relating to the administration of the rating system. I now deal briefly with each of them in turn.
On the transfer of Collector of Rates' functions
Under the Rating Ordinance, the Commissioner of Rating and Valuation is responsible for the assessment of rateable values and the Director of Accounting Services, as the Collector of Rates, for the billing and collection of rates. This separation of duties results in an unnecessary and wasteful duplication of effort. Ratepayers are also unsure as to which department they should contact in case of enquiries. I therefore propose to transfer the function of billing and collecting rates to the Commissioner. In this way, the Commissioner will be able to provide a one-stop service for ratepayers. It will also allow better use of the resources of the two departments concerned.
On the abolition of half-refund of rates
In 1974, we abolished the refund of rates for vacant domestic properties to encourage their speedy occupation. However, we continue to allow half-refund of rates for vacant non-domestic premises. As at September 1994, there were 16 700 unoccupied non domestic properties for which ratepayers had claimed half-refunds. I do not believe there is any compelling reason to maintain this differential treatment. I therefore propose to abolish the half-refund for vacant non-domestic premises to put domestic and non-domestic premises on an equal footing. We estimate that this proposal will result in savings of nearly $5 million a year and additional revenue of about $94 million a year.
Nevertheless, vacant land and vacant properties where the vacancy results from a court order upon the application of the Government will remain eligible for full refund of rates. I also propose that for such properties, ratepayers can claim refunds for the entire vacant period instead of for whole calendar months only as at present.
As regards amendments to streamline procedures
We have also taken this opportunity to introduce a number of technical amendments. They streamline the procedures for rates assessment, service of notices and rating appeals. The aim of these various amendments is to improve efficiency and the quality of service to the public.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 7 December 1994 1259 Mr President, with these remarks, I commend the present Bill to Members. Bill referred to the House Committee pursuant to Standing Order 42(3A).
POLYTECHNICS (CONSEQUENTIAL AMENDMENTS) BILL 1994
THE SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER moved the Second Reading of: "A Bill to make consequential amendments to certain Ordinances on the change of title and status of the Hong Kong Polytechnic to The Hong Kong Polytechnic University and City Polytechnic of Hong Kong to the City University of Hong Kong."
He said: Mr President, I move the Second Reading of the Polytechnics (Consequential Amendments) Bill 1994.
The Bill makes a number of amendments consequential on the change of title and status of the former Hong Kong Polytechnic and the former City Polytechnic of Hong Kong on their assuming new titles as universities and a new status in that capacity.
Members will recall that when these institutions had their Ordinances amended in November, there were a number of consequential amendments included in the legislative package. Those had been identified as the more important consequential amendments and it had been thought that the remaining amendments were in subsidiary legislation. However, a later search by the Legal Department revealed that a number of other consequential amendments are also necessary. This omission is due to oversight on our part when an earlier computer search had failed to identify those consequential amendments.
Mr President, I move under Standing Order 42(3A) that the Second Reading debate on this Bill shall not be adjourned and the debate be proceeded with now.
Amongst the consequential amendments that form this Bill, three are particularly urgent. They involve conferral of qualifications under the Legal Practitioners Ordinance, the Supplementary Medical Professions Ordinance, and the Apprenticeship Ordinance. These need to be in place by the time that the substantive changes to the governing structures of the institutions are made on 1 January 1995. Besides, one of the consequential amendments is made to the Apprenticeship Ordinance which is now being translated into Chinese and due to be authenticated on 13 December 1994. The authentication would have to be deferred if the amendments could not be made before that date. For these reasons, we need to make these amendments as soon as possible. We therefore propose that the three readings of the Bill should be taken in one sitting. This is an exceptional arrangement which we would seek to avoid as far as possible in future, but in view of the fact that this Council will adjourn from 15 December
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1994 to 10 January 1995, we would be most grateful for Members' indulgence and support of the passage of this Bill in one sitting.
Thank you, Mr President.
Question on the motion proposed.
MRS ELSIE TU: Mr President, at the House Committee Meeting on 2 December, the Deputy Chairman and I were instructed to inform the Administration that Members would support the Polytechnics (Consequential Amendments) Bill 1994 being passed through all three readings at one sitting, as an exceptional case.
Members expressed the view that this case should not set a precedent for Bills to be rushed through all three Readings before Members have had the opportunity to scrutinize them in the usual way.
The Secretary for Education and Manpower has explained the special circumstances of the case, and I am sure that most if not all Members will support the passing of the Bill today, with the condition that I have already mentioned, that this should not be a precedent for rushing through future bills. Mr President, I therefore seek Members' support for the proposal that all three readings of the Bill should take place at this sitting.
Thank you, Mr President.
SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER: Thank you, Mr President. I am most grateful to Mrs TU for Members' support and understanding of this particular case. I do wish to reassure this Council that this is to be an exceptional case and will not establish a precedent in future. Indeed as Members understand, the amendments are entirely technical and straightforward and require no policy changes at all. So I do hope that Members will see the way through to passing this Bill in this sitting. Thank you.
Question on the motion put.
PRESIDENT: Yes, Mr Howard YOUNG?
MR HOWARD YOUNG: Mr President, do we need a quorum to take a vote?
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 7 December 1994 1261 PRESIDENT: Only if it is pointed out to me and in which case I have to summon a quorum. Question on the motion put and agreed to.
Question on the Second Reading of the Bill proposed, put and agreed to. Bill read the Second time.
Bill committed to a Committee of the whole Council pursuant to Standing Order 43(1).
CRIMINAL JURISDICTION BILL
Resumption of debate on Second Reading which was moved on 23 February 1994 Question on Second Reading proposed.
MR RONALD ARCULLI: Mr President, the object of the Criminal Jurisdiction Bill is to extend the jurisdiction of Hong Kong courts to enable them to try certain offences of fraud and dishonesty which are specified in the Bill and where part of the offence or its result takes place in Hong Kong. The offences which would be affected by this extended jurisdiction are those relating to obtaining property by dishonest means, or a conspiracy, attempt or incitement to commit those offences.
A Bills Committee was formed to study this Bill. The Committee held three meetings including two with the Administration.
In considering the Bill, the Committee has expressed three major concerns. Commencement date of the Ordinance
The first concern is the commencement date of the Ordinance. Members noted that the United Kingdom Criminal Justice Act 1993, on which this Bill is modelled, has not been implemented since enactment. We learned through the Legislative Council Office in London that there are a number of issues to be resolved between governmental departments before the Act can be enforced. The Administration is also unable to provide information on this, but it considers delays of over a year in bringing an Act into force not unusual, particularly if subsidiary legislation has to be prepared. To address to our concern, the Administration has undertaken not to name a date under clause 1(2) of the Bill for the commencement of this Bill until the United Kingdom Act has commenced operation.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 7 December 1994 1262 Offences to which this Ordinance applies
The second concern of the Bills Committee is on the breadth of this Bill.
The Bill covers two categories of offences. Group A are substantive offences of dishonesty. Some offences are from the Theft Ordinance (Cap. 210), some from the Crimes Ordinance (Cap. 200), and also the common law offence of cheating in relation to the public revenue. Group B offences are inchoate offences relating to the Group A offences and the common law offence of conspiracy to defraud.
Deletion of clause 2(2)(c)
In its submission to the Bills Committee, the Hong Kong Society of Accountants expressed reservations on the inclusion of the offence of cheating in relation to the public revenue. It considers that out of ignorance of the law of other jurisdictions, lawyers and accountants may unwittingly commit the offences of conspiracy or attempt to cheat public revenue when devising tax schemes for use in other jurisdictions. The Society is also concerned that the Bill might have the effect of enforcing the revenue law of other countries. My honourable colleague, Mr Martin BARROW, is also concerned that the conviction of a director for false statements by company directors or cheating in relation to public revenue may result in the company being confiscated.
The Administration reconsidered the position and concluded that, in all circumstances, it is unlikely that the offence of cheating the public revenue will result in prosecutions. On the basis of concerns expressed, it agrees to delete this offence (clause 2(2)(c)) from the Bill.
Why some offences are not covered
On the other hand, Members question why some offences are not included. They are concerned as to why corruption is not a Group A offence when cross-border corruption is becoming a grave concern. The Administration explains that its initial plan is to follow the United Kingdom Criminal Justice Act 1993 which had considered but not decided to include corruption. The offences now under Group A are principal offences of dishonesty. There are usually more than one element in the offence proof of which is required for the conviction of that offence. Corruption offences are of very different nature and are generally composed of one single element. Moreover, the Administration is not convinced that there are jurisdictional problems in corruption offences that require an extended jurisdiction over these offences.
Members are also concerned why computer frauds are not covered by the Bill because, with modern technology, it is not difficult for a person to manipulate computer data to achieve frauds elsewhere. The Administration explains that the United Kingdom Act, on which the Bill is modelled, does not
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 7 December 1994 1263
include computer frauds. Besides, the computer misuse criminal offences in Hong Kong were introduced only 18 months ago and are being reviewed.
The Hong Kong Association of Banks also proposes to add some offences to the Bill. For the reasons I mentioned, the Administration does not support the proposal at this stage. If, after the Bill is enacted, it is demonstrated that other offences need to be added to the list, an amendment can always be sought.
Double jeopardy
The third and major concern of the Bills Committee is that the Bill may result in a person being convicted in two jurisdictions in respect of the same wrong. The Hong Kong China border crimes have been a growing concern; and the situation is complicated by the fact that there is no extradition agreement between Hong Kong and China. The Hong Kong Bar Association also expresses concern over this point.
The Administration explains that, in deciding whether the jurisdiction of Hong Kong courts should, for certain offences, have a wider jurisdiction than at present, the following factors are important —
(a) the need to have an adequate criminal jurisdiction to protect Hong Kong's interests, including its reputation as an international financial centre;
(b) the fact that many other common law jurisdictions have a wider jurisdiction than Hong Kong in respect of crimes with a foreign element;
(c) the rules of international comity (which will not be infringed by the enactment of this Bill);
(d) the common law doctrines of autrefois convict and autrefois acquit; (e) arrangements under which extraditions are carried out; and
(f) other steps taken in practice by the international community.
In the Administration's view, the modest extension of Hong Kong's criminal jurisdiction proposed in the Bill is both needed and consistent with the jurisdiction exercised by other developed legal system. It does not think that the theoretical possibility of double jeopardy arising would be a reason for not enacting the Bill.
I share the Administration's view.
Mr President, with these remarks, I support the resumption of Second Reading of the Bill.
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ATTORNEY GENERAL: Mr President, I would like to thank Mr ARCULLI and other Members of the Committee for their thorough study of this small but important Bill. If I can just respond briefly to a number of the points that Mr ARCULLI has dealt with this afternoon, taking as the first the application of the Bill, its scope. As drafted the Bill applies, as we have heard, to various attempts at fraud and dishonesty as set out in clause 2(2) of the Bill, together with conspiracies, attempts and incitements at committing such an offence.
As we have heard, Mr President, the Bills Committee discussed whether there is a need to extend the reach of this Bill to cover computer frauds and cross-border corruption. We are not at the moment satisfied that there is evidence of any jurisdictional problems in relation to these offences, but I would like to give this assurance that if any such problems did occur, we would give anxious consideration to bringing those offences within the coverage of this Bill.
If I can turn now to the common law offence of cheating the public revenue. I confirm, Mr President, that we are content to amend the Bill and I will be moving a Committee stage amendment to that effect to delete this offence. We are satisfied that prosecutions for the offence are unlikely to be brought in Hong Kong, given the broad statutory offences in section 82 of the Inland Revenue Ordinance.
I should mention at this juncture, Mr President, that I will be moving two other Committee stage amendments, both of them being matters of drafting rather than of substance. One will improve the Chinese version of the offence of evasion of liability by deception, and the other is to remove from clause 5 some words that are redundant and that could possibly cause difficulties if retained.
Perhaps I could now briefly turn to the question of double jeopardy, a point that Mr ARCULLI has mentioned and a matter that was of concern to the Bills Committee. It is undeniable that there is the possibility of a person being convicted of an offence both in Hong Kong and in another jurisdiction in respect of the same conduct, and that possibility exists because the Bill extends the jurisdiction of our Courts to convict a person in respect of conduct performed partly here and partly outside Hong Kong. But I would note that the risk of double jeopardy already exists. It is not a new risk because many countries already exercise extraterritorial jurisdiction and can already convict a person in respect of conduct in Hong Kong. That problem cannot be solved by the Bill's modest extension of Hong Kong's criminal jurisdiction. Nor would I say that it is a good reason for not enacting the Bill.
Finally, Mr President, I turn to the commencement date. As Mr ARCULLI has explained, the Bill is based on legislation enacted in England as recently as 1993 and that legislation has not yet come into operation. The Committee was concerned that this might indicate that problems might have been identified in respect of that legislation. Although there is nothing to indicate that this is the case, the Committee would prefer that we hold back the
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 7 December 1994 1265
introduction of this legislation or its coming into operation until the English model is in force. Mr President, I am content that that should be the case and I can confirm that we will not bring this Bill into operation before the English legislation. Thank you.
Question on the Second Reading of the Bill put and agreed to.
Bill read the Second time.
Bill committed to a Committee of the whole Council pursuant to Standing Order 43(1).
Committee Stage of Bills
Council went into Committee.
POLYTECHNICS (CONSEQUENTIAL AMENDMENTS) BILL 1994 Clauses 1 to 10 were agreed to.
CRIMINAL JURISDICTION BILL
Clauses 1, 3, 4 and 6 to 9 were agreed to.
Clauses 2 and 5
ATTONERY GENERAL: Mr Chairman, I move that clauses 2 and 5 be amended as set out in the paper circulated to Members.
Clause 2(2)(a) is amended in order to improve the reference in the Chinese text to the offence of evasion of liability by deception. Clause 2(2) is also amended by deleting the reference to the offence of cheating the public revenue.
Clause 5 is amended by deleting redundant words.
Mr Chairman, I beg to move.
Proposed amendments
Clause 2
That clause 2(2) be amended, by deleting paragraph (c).
That clause 2(2)(a) be amended, by deleting "債務" and substituting "法律責任".
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 7 December 1994 1266 Clause 5
That clause 5 be amended —
(a) in paragraph (a), by deleting "at a place".
(b) in paragraph (b)(i), by deleting "a place in Hong Kong to a place" and substituting "Hong Kong to".
(c) in paragraph (b)(ii), by deleting "a place elsewhere to a place in" and substituting "elsewhere to".
Question on the amendments proposed, put and agreed to.
Question on clauses 2 and 5, as amended, proposed, put and agreed to. Council then resumed.
Third Reading of Bills
THE ATTORNEY GENERAL reported that the
POLYTECHNICS (CONSEQUENTIAL AMENDMENTS) BILL 1994 had passed through Committee without amendment and the
CRIMINAL JURISDICTION BILL
had passed through Committee with amendments. He moved the Third Reading of the Bills. Question on the Third Reading of the Bills proposed, put and agreed to. Bills read the Third time and passed.
PRIVATE MEMBER'S MOTIONS
INTERPRETATION AND GENERAL CLAUSES ORDINANCE
MR STEVEN POON moved the following motion:
"That, in relation to the Commodities Trading Ordinance (Amendment of Schedule 1) Order 1994 published as Legal Notice No. 564 of 1994 and laid on the table of the Legislative Council on 9 November 1994, the period referred to in section 34(2) of the Interpretation and General
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 7 December 1994 1267
Clauses Ordinance for amending subsidiary legislation be extended under section 34(4) of that Ordinance until 14 December 1994."
MR STEVEN POON: Mr President, I move the motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.
The Subcommittee to study the Commodities Trading Ordinance (Amendment of Schedule 1) Order 1994 has identified some issues which will require further consideration. To allow time for the Subcommittee to consider these points in depth, it is necessary to extend the time allowed for making amendment to the subsidiary legislation until 14 December 1994.
Mr President, I beg to move.
Question on the motion proposed, put and agreed to.
PRESIDENT: I have accepted the recommendations of the House Committee as to time limits on speeches for the motion debates and Members were informed by circular on 5 December. The mover of the motions will have 15 minutes for their speeches including their replies and another five minutes to reply to proposed amendments. Other Members, including movers of amendments, will have seven minutes for their speeches. Under Standing Order 27A, I am required to direct any Member speaking in excess of the specified time to discontinue his speech.
WELFARE SERVICES FOR THE ELDERLY
MR ERIC LI moved the following motion:
"That this Council urges the Government to take into account the views of this Council and the public and implement as soon as possible the recommendations on the improvement of services proposed in the Report of the Working Group on Care for the Elderly and, without delaying the implementation of the improvement measures, to:
1. maintain the existing basic criterion of allowing persons aged 60 and above to have access to the services;
2. take into account the actual needs and usage of services by the different age sub-groups amongst persons aged 60 and above when planning the various types of services in order to cater for the changes in the composition of the elderly population;
3. expedite the development of the services of health centres for the elderly and to bring in the participation from non-governmental organizations and the private sector so that the health care and
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preventive services for the elderly would be speedily implemented and more old people will benefit as a result; and
4. set up as soon as practicable a central committee on services for the elderly comprising members from various sectors and directorate staff of the departments concerned to oversee the co-ordination and the implementation of services for the elderly."
MR ERIC LI (in Cantonese): Mr President, I rise to move that the motion standing in my name on the Order Paper be approved.
The wording of this motion is a bit longer than usual. This is so because I noticed that certain wording in the "Report of the Working Group on Care for the Elderly" have aroused concern and debates in this Council as well as in the community perhaps due to the ambiguity in the underlying concept of the relevant policy. Therefore, it is my hope that by means of tabling a motion which is more specific in contents and by putting it in pertinent wording from a practical point of view, the expectation of all sectors in the community on the Report can be accurately reflected afresh so that this Council may keep a clear historical record.
In fact, the Government, the social welfare sector and the community are very much in favour of the idea of improving the quality of the livelihood of the elderly. Therefore, as soon as the rather ambiguous elements contained in the Report are clarified and the wording which is likely to arouse controversy is removed, we should recognize the value of the Report. If the motion can also secure the support of the Government, it will help the Government clarify its stance, thereby eliminating any unnecessary disputes which currently exist. Under such circumstances, the community will not have to drag on any longer. Meanwhile the Government's early implementation of the recommendations for improving elderly services is very much welcomed.
The Governor stated explicitly in this year's policy address that "at the top of our social priorities come the elderly". The purpose in implementing various large-scale proposals to safeguard the health and welfare of the elderly and hard selling the Old Age Pension Scheme which has been heatedly debated in this Council is nothing else than to demonstrate the Government's commitment towards the welfare of the elderly. However, I have stressed time and again that giving out "dazzling money" is always the most charismatic thing to do in politics, yet, if the Hong Kong Government is genuinely committed to addressing the need to provide elderly services, the problem can definitely not be "fixed up" simply by distributing money. We must start from the basic needs of the elderly. Other than offering a full range of services to cater for their basic necessities, the elderly should also be provided with a "tailor-made" medical and health care scheme together with cultural and recreational facilities, neither of which is dispensable.
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The philosophy of elderly services in the White Paper on Social Welfare into the 1990s and Beyond is on the one hand to encourage caring for the elderly by family members and strengthen support for such families while on the other hand, to develop a community-based comprehensive support service, thereby to achieve the target of "Aging in place - care in the community". These principles of the overall policy on elderly services are examined and reaffirmed in the recently released Report of the Working Group on Care for the Elderly. In other words, the 71 recommendations for the improvement of elderly services listed in the Report are not in the least intended to change the established philosophy of welfare services of Hong Kong or to turn Hong Kong into a welfare state by "giving out money generously". Instead, the Report only tries to enable welfare services to develop steadily in a servicing direction we have consistently taken.
While the Governor has accepted 11 recommendations made in the Report, I am fully convinced that this is far from adequate. The elderly problem in Hong Kong has not been too serious in the past. It has only become more obvious in recent years. Despite the setting up of a working group by the Government as early as 1972 to study how to solve problems associated with the elderly, the first "Green Paper on Elderly Services" was released only in 1977 and the proposals were only implemented in the 1980s. The number of elderly people aged 60 or above has drastically increased from 290 000 in 1971, which accounted for 7.4% of the total population then, to nearly 800 000 nowadays, representing more than 13% of the total population. As a result of the late commencement of various kinds of elderly services, the services have fallen far behind the aging trend of the population. If the Government does not act promptly to catch up, the inadequacy of services will only be "intensified rather than ameliorated".
Mr President, I would like to point out that to welcome the Report's recommendations on improvements does not mean "accepting all elements contained therein without making changes". The four areas specifically outlined in the motion denote the vitally important amendments which should be made to the Report.
First of all, the basic criterion which stipulates that persons aged 60 or above are eligible for elderly services should be maintained and "should not be subject to any negotiation". Any attempt to raise or tighten up this long-criterion with a view to reducing the Government's adopted commitment to the provision of services will be deemed by members of the public as "cutting the feet to fit the shoes", that is, a move by the Government to shirk its responsibilities.
It is all the more puzzling to find that paragraph 225 of the Report specifically stated that persons aged between 60 and 64 should have a "proven need". My opinion is that any recipient of social welfare services should fit in with the requirement of having a "proven need". But the criteria for determining whether there is a "proven need" must be open, unbiased and
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convenient to enforce. For instance, financial status, health conditions and the extent of family support available, etc. Age is merely one of the many objective criteria. Different criteria can be applied to different modes of service so as to decide which service recipient has a more imperative "proven need". In fact, other than the basic age requirement of 60 years, many kinds of elderly services at present also have other explicitly stated requirements in respect of the provision of services. The admission criteria of the residental centres for the elderly is a case in point. For those services the provision of which is not based on any particular requirement at present, respective criteria can be devised by taking into consideration the practical situation so as to reflect fully the principle of "proven need". It is, however, "superfluous" to specifically require persons aged between 60 and 64 to have a "proven need", thus imposing an "unspecified hidden double standard" on them.
However, insofar as planning is concerned, I agree that a detailed breakdown of age will generate differences in the need for and the use of different services. Therefore, my view is that the Government can take into account the practical situation and make flexible "interim" arrangements accordingly. But in the context of long-term policy, the Government should still give full regard to the actual need for services of persons aged between 60 to 64. This Council will not make any concession in this respect. I understand that the Honourable HUI Yin-fat will relate in details the views of the social welfare sector and so I will not speak on this aspect any more. But I would like to take this opportunity to thank Mr HUI and the Hong Kong Council of Social Service for providing the detailed information related to this motion debate on my behalf.
Paragraph 3 of the motion intends to reflect on the importance and obvious shortage of the services of health centres. Under the Department of Health, there is only one health centre in Nam Shan Estate, Shamshuipo. The completion of the second one in Kwun Tong is envisaged in the year 1995. The third of its kind is still in the planning stage. It is absolutely impossible to have only two health centres to serve nearly 800 000 elderly living all over the territory. Health centre is very important because of its health care and preventive functions. It can help to allay the illnesses and sufferings of the elderly and improve their ability to care for themselves and participate in the community. It will bring economic benefits in the long run and it is therefore worthwhile to advocate such centres vigorously. I am aware that some non-governmental organizations wish to participate by running the centres on a self-financed basis with the Government providing the initial capital investments and annual subvention in a fixed amount. If their participation is proved to be more cost-effective, the Government should seriously consider transferring the operation of health centres to non-governmental organizations. The funds so saved shall be used to expedite the development of additional health centres for the elderly. Private clinics can also play an active role by participating in the provision of these services. The Government should foster publicity and promotional work. For example, the Government can encourage private sector to provide the elderly with health care services at a lower charge through the
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network of Senior Citizen Cards. I believe that Dr LEONG Chi-hung and the other doctors in this Council may put forth more good advice later on for the reference of this Council.
For years, the social welfare sector has repeatedly requested the setting up of a central committee on services for the elderly as mentioned in paragraph 4. The Government is also of the view that it is necessary to set up a central division for elderly services internally under the Health and Welfare Branch to co-ordinate and oversee the relevant services provided by different departments, such as the Housing, Health and Welfare, Transport, Education and Labour Departments, thus putting the various kinds of services together to form a comprehensive package of services. I think the two ideas are not in conflict in any way.
The Government should be responsible for co-ordination. Elderly services, however, involve many non-governmental organizations and service users. The setting up of a consultative framework to give advice to the internal working group will only improve the co-ordination and long-term planning of elderly services which will enable the needs of users to be further satisfied. The work of the committee will mostly be centred on the co ordination between departments and organizations. It should be comprised of members who actually have the authority to enforce policies. For this reason, its members should be pitched at a rank not lower than the directorate grade or else a meeting attended by too many people will easily turn out to be some empty talks, which means "proposals are only being put forward but not being enforced". If the decision reached by the committee will have any implications on policies, it should be passed onto the hands of a consultative framework, such as the Social Welfare Advisory Committee of which I am the Chairman for further discussion.
As the Report of the Working Group covers a wide range of topics, I can only "dwell on the main points and avoid the trivial ones". I am glad that the Honourable LAM Kui chun is going to move a motion on the comprehensive social security assistance payment on 14 December so that the debate today can focus on the improvement of important services. Welfare services for the elderly has been debated in this Council for many times. The Report of the Working Group can be taken as an interim report for the efforts of this Council and in all sectors in the community in striving for better services for the elderly in all these years. I therefore look forward to members speaking on this issue with great enthusiasm but not complicating the matter. Let us join together to urge the Government to implement as soon as possible the recommendations on improvements proposed in the Report so as not to cause any more delay to the provision of welfare services which the elderly should have long been enjoying.
Mr President, with these remarks, I move the motion.
Question on the motion proposed.
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MR HUI YIN-FAT (in Cantonese): Mr President, the Working Group on Care for the Elderly (Working Group) headed by the former Secretary for Health and Welfare has completed its report, and the Governor has accepted it. The implementation of some of the recommendations listed therein have even been started. Despite all these, the report fails to remove the doubts of the public about future services for the elderly, in particular, those about the financial commitments of the Administration. As a member of the Working Group which has been disbanded, I fully understand the whole process whereby the report was compiled, and what was covered in the discussions. Although I agree that solutions put forward in the report are heading for the right direction, and improvement proposals contained in it are acceptable, I still feel uneasy and a bit worried about two of the recommendations involving the Administration's commitment towards financial requirements. One is the proposal to make those aged 65 or above the target group for elderly services; the other one is the establishment of an Elderly Services Division under the Health and Welfare Branch to co-ordinate and monitor elderly services in Hong Kong.
The Administration has all along set the retirement age of civil servants at 60, after which they may receive pensions. However, the Administration has not laid down written provisions for the retirement age of employees in the private sector, where 65 is usually is the age limit. The only reason for the Administration's unwillingness to fix 60 as a universal retirement age is that it does not want to commit itself too much to the provision of welfare for the elderly. The earlier an employee retires from work, the more economically vulnerable he will become after retirement, hence resulting in greater dependence on the Administration for economic assistance and other welfare services. This is so because there are no compulsory retirement protection schemes in Hong Kong. Furthermore, we are having an aging population. The situation will reach its peak after 20 years or so. Adding to this is the fact that the average life expectancy of our citizens is becoming longer and longer. Therefore, making those aged 65 or above the target group for elderly services has strategic significance.
Although the Administration reiterated that those aged between 60 and 64 may continue to have access to services for the elderly where "there is a proven need", it has been reluctant to give a clear definition on what "proven need" refers to. I think this is a bar with which the Administration reserves for itself to flexibly handle expenditure on welfare for the elderly. If the Administration expects a shortage of funds or surging demand, it may narrow the meaning of "proven need" so as to exclude the elderly within this age stratum or to strike them off the service priority list. However, if the Administration finds itself to be financially sound, it may relax the requirements to allow more elderly people to benefit, thereby making a show of its "graciousness" towards the elderly.
If the elderly have worries, they are not only restricted to welfare services. Currently, a lot of institutions are providing preferential treatments in varying degrees to the elderly in terms of housing, medical care, transport and
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even consumer services items such as entertainment and shopping. Some of these institutions have set 60 as the minimum entitlement age for preferential treatments. If the Administration takes the lead in raising to 65 the age limit of its target group for the relevant services, other institutions may follow suit. This could be a great blow to those elderly within the age stratum in question.
Secondly, to enable the elderly to enjoy services with a comprehensive coverage which should include housing, community support, residential and medical services, primary health care, transport and re-employment provided by various departments of the Administration or the public sector, the Hong Kong Council of Social Service, to which I belong, has in the past been proposing the establishment of a central committee for elderly services. The committee will be responsible for the orgainzation, co-ordination and monitoring of services and policies relating to the elderly. Unfortunately, what the Administration has proposed to do so far is just the establishment of an Elderly Services Division under the Health and Welfare Branch and the Division is to be headed by an Administration Officer at Staff Grade. The Administration Officer will be charged with the sole responsibility of dealing with policy matters concerning elderly services. Let us imagine with such a low ranking structure, how can it function as an agent to organize and co-ordinate the policies of all departments, let alone to perform self-monitoring. In my opinion, the Administration's unwillingness to be monitored by an outside agency at higher levels indicates its lack of confidence in making long-term commitments in respect of services for the elderly.
Mr President, in view of today's debate, the Elderly Division of the Hong Kong Council of Social Service has provided each colleagues and each relevant department with a large amount of reference materials and information about its stance on the matter. I hope Mr Eric LEE would not think that I am trying to meddle in his affairs. It is our responsibility and our mission to maintain the services for and to protect the interests of the elderly. I do not want to repeat myself too much. All I want to emphasize is that Hong Kong people are very concerned about the attitude of the Administration in formulating its policies in the second half of the transitional period. Policy Branch officials have a duty to clear by taking concrete action any doubts which the Hong Kong people may have, rather than create additional uncertainties. Therefore, I hope the Administration would give due consideration to the views of this Council.
With these remarks, I support the motion.
MRS PEGGY LAM (in Cantonese): Mr President, we are far too familiar with the discussions on the problem of welfare services for the elderly. As this is an "old" problem, we should make even greater efforts to solve the problem because the targets of the service are getting older and older each day and they cannot afford to have any more delays.
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I am glad that the Working Group commissioned by the Government has made an overall review on the services for the elderly. The policies for elderly services recommended by the Working Party Report on Care for the Elderly can be considered as having taken care of their various needs. Yet, the services suggested in the report still tend to be scrappy as if it has just taken a part for the whole.
Back in 1991, the Legislative Council had held a motion debate to urge the Government to formulate a complete and comprehensive policy for elderly service. At that time, Members of the Council held comprehensive discussions on services including housing, medical care, health care, nursing home and hospice care and the motion was carried. Why do we have to harp on the same old tunes again this time and why is there still room for discussion? This is only because we still have not composed a complete piece of music on services for the elderly.
In 1991, I called upon big institutions to fulfil their responsibilities as enterprises to the citizens to promote the concept of respecting the old, and it is gratifying to see that now, several public transport companies offer discount fares for the senior citizens, which reflects that the elderly are being respected in this respect. However, the pace of the Government's implementation of services for the elderly is as slow as a snail going up a tree which totally lags behind the speed in which the population is aging. As a result, the problem of services for the elderly is getting more and more serious.
One of the reasons for the ever increasing number of old people in Hong Kong is the lengthening of the average life expectancy. At present, the average life expectancy of males is 75.1 years while that of females is as long as 80.6 years. The report recommends that the minimum age for basic services should be raised from 60 at present to 65. This recommendation is not only contrary to the principle of "providing for the elderly" promoted by the Government all along and exclude the 240 000 old people aged between 60 and 64 from the scope of services, but also divides the senior citizens of 60 years of age and above who represent 13% of the total population of Hong Kong into grades for different services.
The care for the elderly is neither alms nor dole. Instead, it is their entitled rights because they have made contributions to the society. It is more a civil right than social welfare. If the Government accepts the recommendation of raising the age for services to 65, one cannot help but doubt its sincerity in implementing elderly services.
Many people say that even the Government has regarded caring for the elderly as a burden and a heavy load, so let alone the ordinary citizens. Under the impact of the change in social structure and the disintegration of the family, the concept of respecting the old is increasingly weakened. There is a need for the Government to revive the social custom of respecting the old and to
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formulate a precautionary, developmental and educational policy for welfare services for the elderly.
In order to help the elderly remain actively involved in society and lead a rich and meaningful life after retirement, I suggest setting up a "Senior Counselling Society" in the community to get together senior citizens from all walks of life. On the one hand, they can express their views on regional affairs and public welfare matters; on the other hand, other citizens who are in need can also seek help from the Counselling Society. As a result, these old people can obtain satisfaction from their involvement in social affairs.
Another method that serves similar purpose is an elderly volunteer worker project. The Report suggests the creation of a post in eight service centres for the elderly as an experiment, to be responsible for recruiting and training elderly volunteer workers. I find this a very good idea. It should be carried out as soon as possible and be extended to other welfare organizations. Having senior citizens work as volunteer workers can enrich the backup resources of the community, the work of household work assistants, in particular, can help not only the physically unwell old people and those who have difficulties in getting around but also allow old people who are capable of taking care of themselves to foster the spirit of "caring for one another in the community".
In fact, many elderly people still work after retirement. According to the statistics in 1991, old people aged between 60 and 64 who are still working represent 37% of the senile population while those aged over 65 represent 13.8%. They take up non-technical work in general. To utilize the resources of senior citizens more effectively, I suggest setting up a placement sub-division for the elderly under the Labour Department to help them look for suitable jobs in public and private organizations, such that some retired people can have support expectation thereby minimizing on the cases of old people committing suicide out of loneliness.
To ensure that the elderly can receive comprehensive care, I agree to the suggestion of Mr Eric LI in urging the Government to establish a central committee on elderly services which will consist of people from all walks of life and the directors of relevant departments, to co-ordinate and monitor the implementation of the services for the elderly.
I do not think that this committee should be established for consultative purposes only, but that it should have certain administrative authority. Otherwise, it will not only repeat the fate of the dissolved Central Co-ordinating Committee on Services for the Elderly set up in 1981, but will also delay the implementation of the recommendations in the Report.
The Government can no longer carve up elderly services such as, treating retirement protection and housing for the elderly as separate matters. The Government should set up a continuous system which deals with the problems
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concerning housing for the elderly, community support service, hostel service, primary health care, hospital service, transport, employment and education in a comprehensive manner.
Mr President, with these remarks, I support Mr Eric LI's motion.
MR JIMMY McGREGOR: Mr President, it is not difficult to agree with the underlying sentiment and the guiding principle of this motion, but the elderly in our community do not enjoy the extent, depth and quality of services that they deserve. Any community which provides half a million of its elderly citizens with a token Old Age Allowance of a few hundred dollars a month and which is locked in deep and fundamental dispute about the introduction of an Old Age Pension whose basic initial payment would not be sufficient to pay the rent for a tiny room in an old folk's home, has little to be proud of.
The history of elderly care in Hong Kong is one of too little, too late and who cares? These are people who have given their lives to the Hong Kong system. They have slaved in factories and every kind of commercial enterprise, and contributed their skills, their sweat, their effort and quite often their health to the Hong Kong economic machine. Some would call it the Hong Kong economic treadmill.
I have been witness to the remarkable economic success and growth of Hong Kong during the last 40 years. I have been proud to have taken part in it, just as many of us here today have taken part in it. I have been conscious during all of this time of the driving energy of the profit motive, and the inexhaustible opportunities open to the entrepreneur. It has been clear to me that business and businessmen have had an enormous influence on the Government and on government policy. The governing of Hong Kong has been essentially and, until quite recently, a joint venture between the business section and the civil administration. This liaison has had a deep and lasting effect on economic policies, providing Hong Kong with one of the most efficient economies in the world. During the 1950s and 1960s, the joint venture worked extremely well and Hong Kong's future viability and prosperity, in a macro-economic sense, were given the strongest possible base and framework.
It is not in the nature of business and businessmen, however, to be deeply concerned with social development, except in the negative sense. If expenditure on social security and social welfare were to rise to pose some form of implied or imagined threat to economic growth, then business will oppose. If, for example, proposed social measures were to suggest an increase in some form of taxation on business, it is likely that this too would be opposed.
There is a great deal of evidence in Hansard, and indeed in many other territories around the world, to confirm the classic differences between those who are economically oriented and those who seek social justice. I do not suggest for a moment that businessmen are not keenly aware of the need for a
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balanced society, where every sector of the community shares in the economic input and is rewarded by a fair share of the income and the wealth created thereby. Every businessman knows and accepts that such a balance must somehow be struck. However, in a capitalist territory such as Hong Kong, the classic struggle between economic achievers and social developers needs a very determined and dedicated government which accepts responsibility for maintaining, and where necessary, establishing a fair and equitable balance between the two.
In our sometimes mad rush towards new wealth and material aggrandizement, we are often so bedazzled by the great and the glorious, by riches and the promise of more, that we fail to see that not all of those who have made us the business envy of the world, have been able to come into the sunlight with us. Many have been left behind in the shadows, languishing in penury and ill health, sometimes, and too often, without hope of improvement.
Those of us who have all we need are fond of saying that Hong Kong is a caring society, that our elderly are proud and independent and that the Chinese culture militates against acceptance of state support. The family will look after the elderly. Whatever cultural restraints there may be, Hong Kong's elderly people have shown clearly enough that they need state financial support and that, if it is available, they will accept it. Half a million people already do. Another 100 000 people owe their continued existence to the benefits in one way or another of the Comprehensive Social Security Assistance Scheme. These include over 66 500 active cases of elderly people over 65 years of age. Quite obviously, the families of all these recipients cannot, simply cannot support them financially to the degree required to provide basic needs. Business organizations in another context have proposed that needy, elderly people should be given immediately an increase of their present small allowances to $2,300 a month. We are to discuss a related issue next week.
Mr Eric LI is, in effect, supplementing the business call by seeking substantial improvements in the health care institutions which support the elderly. The Government has moved more rapidly in this direction in recent years and greater expenditure on further expansion of services for the elderly will undoubtedly follow. The proposal for a central committee to co-ordinate and implement these services makes good sense but it must have the assurance of a link with executive action, otherwise it may become yet another talking shop.
Mr President, I think the first priority for the Government must be the Old Age Pension, but I wholeheartedly agree that much can also be done in the meantime to improve services for the elderly. I therefore support the motion.
MR MAN SAI-CHEONG (in Cantonese): Mr President, the policy for the elderly in Hong Kong lacks far-sightedness. At present, there are around 240 000 elderly people aged from 60 to 64, accounting for one third of the elderly population. The Report of the working party has obviously neglected
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this group of elderly people and many of them who require immediate assistance still cannot receive proper care. The Administration should not deprive them of their rights by adopting 65-year-old as the basis for planning such services. It should be more favourable to maintain 60 years old or above as the basic requirement for receiving elderly services, and the extent of services to be formulated should be according to the needs of different age groups of elderly people aged over 60 and their utilization of such services. Elderly people aged between 60 and 64 should not be excluded from the services "in one clean slice", otherwise, people within this age group would suffer even more.
In terms of financial situation, elderly people aged over 60 is the poorest age group. The Report has avoided the financial problems which many elderly people are experiencing and nothing is mentioned about increasing Comprehensive Social Security Assistance for the elderly. Many elderly people are still living beneath the poverty line, leading a humiliating life. Hong Kong has been making economic development for many years, can it just provide more resources for reciprocating the elderly who have contributed their entire life to its economic development?
In respect of health care for the elderly, this Council has debated many times on issues relating to policy for the elderly these years, and has already suggested that preventive medical and health care for the elderly is the most important for solving the problem of medial care for the elderly such that the elderly can "prevent diseases before they attack" and that the heavy burden on medical facilities and manpower arising from serious illnesses can be relieved. However, the Administration is paying no heed to the present situation. The small cost required for implementing screening service for the elderly can bring great benefits to the elderly. Even some less advanced countries have already implemented or are extensively planning to launch screening and preventive health care programmes. The progress of Hong Kong is far too slow. Every time when my office organizes simple screening services, it will attract hundreds of elderly people to take part, which reflects that the elderly people are in urgent need of such services. However, the Administration has only established a few health centres for the elderly to provide such services and progress is very slow. I hope that the Administration can fully implement community-based health care services for the elderly, and to provide the most basic care for their health.
Finally, I also hope that the Administration would look seriously at the elderly's needs for community and social life and entertainment, so that the elderly can lead a very rich and healthy spiritual life in the final stage of their lives. Now that youth centres can receive 100% subsidies from the Administration, the importance of social centres for the elderly should be in no way less than that of youth centres, thus, the Administration cannot evade its responsibility in giving comprehensive subsidy to social centres for the elderly.
With these remarks, I support the motion.
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MR FREDERICK FUNG (in Cantonese): Mr President, the Administration's future welfare policies for the elderly are set forth in detail in the Report of the Working Group on Care for the Elderly. I strongly support the Government's positive attitude towards studying the policies for the welfare of the aged. Nevertheless, one will query the recommendation that the basic criterion of eligibility for services for the aged should be set at 65 years of age. Most citizens in Hong Kong have retired and are enjoying their twilight years before 65. If the age for enjoying welfare services for the aged is set at 65, many retired people would have to make their own plans for their livelihood. Although the Government has assured that "needy" old people at the age of 60 to 64 could also be entitled to welfare services, there is not any standard criterion for determining who is "in need". Therefore, there is no protection at all for needy elderly people aged between 60 and 64. Once the Government puts such recommendation into practice, many old people would "automatically abstain" from using certain welfare services which they should have been entitled to, as they would rather "automatically abstain" from applying for the welfare services than to be troubled with deciding on whether they are "in need" or not. The Government must, therefore, preserve the rights which these people should have rather than determining their eligibility for welfare services for the aged according to circumstances.
By the end of 1992, there were 207 non-governmental welfare agencies under the Hong Kong Council of Social Service. The Government and these non-governmental welfare agencies are in "co-operative partnership", and the Government offers subsidies to these non-governmental organizations for promoting welfare activities. However, insufficient resources and divergent views on the allocation of resources often lead to tense relationship between the two. To maintain the existing relationship of co-operative partnership, I think the Government should increase the subsidies granted to these non governmental organizations so that the latter would not find it impossible to promote welfare activities due to insufficient resources. According to the Report on the Local Conference on the Roles of Non-governmental Organizations, the ratio of recurrent expenditure on social services incurred by non-governmental organizations to that incurred by the Government is 2.6 to 1 (figures of 1989-90). This reflects that insufficient subsidies are granted to non-governmental organizations by the Government. Hence, the Government should increase the subsidies granted to non-governmental organizations and try to understand their needs by re-adopting a harmonious and co-operating attitude so that these organizations can further promote their welfare services for the elderly.
In this year's policy address, the Government has indicated that it would establish four additional elderly service centres and set up a $200 million Elderly Service Development Fund using the reserve of the Lotteries Fund in the year 1995-96 to help non governmental organizations carry out self-financed and non-profit-making welfare projects for the elderly. I feel very pleased and I support the Government's positive response to welfare services for the aged. But I hope it would continue to give positive response to appeals for increasing the grants to non-governmental organizations. It is also mentioned in
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the policy address that the Government would co-operate effectively with non governmental and private organizations in serving the Hong Kong people. I hope the Government would strictly abide by its promise and continue to maintain sincere co operation with other welfare organizations.
The Working Group on Care for the Elderly has recommended setting up an Elderly Services Division under the Health and Welfare Branch, which is responsible for comprehensively coordinating and monitoring the policies for elderly services. It has also recommended the setting up of a central committee specializing in elderly services, which will bring into line and monitor the implementation of elderly services. I think, in order for the Elderly Services Division to promote elderly welfare services more effectively, the Division should not be placed under the Health and Welfare Branch, it should become an independent division directly under the Government Secretariat or the Governor, so that it has sufficient independent powers to implement policies concerning elderly welfare in respect of housing, medical care, transport and recreational activities. Otherwise, I am afraid it would become a reduplicative establishment, or one with inadequate power and resources such that it will be quite unable to accomplish its other goals.
With these remarks, I support the motion.
DR LEONG CHE-HUNG: Mr President, I rise to speak on and support the motion moved by my honourable colleague, Mr Eric LI. In supporting this motion, I like to address especially the aspect of health care for the elderly.
Mr President, the Working Group on Care for the Elderly obviously spent quite sometime to deliberate the health care needs of the elderly. A whole chapter has been devoted to this entitled Towards Better Health. Needless to say their efforts are not wasted. But regrettably, Mr President, it has not gone far enough. The recommendations have not gone into the root of the matter and does little to really alleviate all the problems and to offer solutions needed to ensure health for all in their twilight years; and to ensure adequate health care to help them add life to years.
Mr President, with the changing of demography to an aging population, and with the blatant fact of rising medical cost, the health care of the elderly is an important social and socio-economic issue. Yet, with regret, there is no clear cut "old age health policy" to guide us in the right direction. It would have been obvious to all that the best policy would be to maintain our senior citizens as healthy as possible, failing which to provide them with adequate treatment and, if necessary, a safe institution for them. Yet, all we see is the Government making suggestions to keep on building different forms of institutions, chasing as it were but always unable to catch up with the shortfall.
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It is a well-known fact that many diseases affecting the old age notably cardiovascular diseases, coronary heart diseases, chronic lung diseases, and common killer conditions are preventable if causative factors are minimized when people are young. Yet, repeatedly the Government refused and failed to set up health targets.
The Primary Health Care Working Party recommended in mid-1991 that health care promotion and frequent health check be offered to our aging population. The Government will say that there are plans to offer these through elderly health centres and two are actually in service. Yet, Mr President, I stand to be convinced that the serving population of over 100 000 senior citizens per centre is a reasonable number to work with. And even so, how long will it take for the other promised centre to come into existence?
Social service centres, Mr President, run by non-governmental organizations abound. They are already looking after the aged. There is no reason that incentives and training could not be extended to these organizations to take up health screening and health promotion to take on some of the load.
Mr President, family physicians in private practice form another source which can provide health education and primary care. Furthermore, many are family doctors. Often times, they could even be more effective. It may sometimes be said that private practitioners may not be willing to take up the job. But, with incentives like the provision of specialist staff at the bid and call of the General Practitioners (GP), it can be very attractive package for them, the GP, to start elderly health centre in their own clinics.
It is obvious that all these need a will and a policy. It also borders on a policy to integrate public and private practices in the health care services. Well organized, we can prevent abuses. Well organized, we can incorporate the private health care sector for the whole spectrum of health care. And well organized, we are to offer a choice to the old grannies and nannies and their families.
Mr President, it may sound horrific that there are as yet no complete data of conditions in the elderly that may require treatment in spite of all the efforts to produce prevention. There are, for example, no data of the number of cataracts amongst people over 60. There are no figures on senile dementia among our twilight population who are housed in institutions. Without these and similar data, one wonders how proper plans can be made; and how resources allocation can be effected.
Finally, one wonders the sincerity of the Government in the provision of a total health care.
Mr President, we have known for a long long time that old people who require institutional care are being shuffled from infirmaries to care and attention homes and vice versa because the two are run by different
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 7 December 1994 1282
departments. Whilst it may be a blessing to hear that nursing homes will be built to take over the load, yet this new institution will be under the care of yet another department. Will this extend the shuffle of those who need institutional care? Will the so-called "revolving door syndrome" be made worse now that there are three departments to move between? The report on the Working Group on Care for the Elderly has entrusted the co-ordination of the three types of institutional homes to a new Elderly Services Division under the Health and Welfare Branch. Yet, how much muscle will this division have? I stand to be convinced of its efficacy.
Mr President, a lot have been said about outreach teams in the report. These are teams for geriatric units in the hospitals visiting nearby old age institutions. It is a good practice as an institution will then be completely covered medically and ailments of the aged people will be detected and treated early. It would also minimize hospital admission. Yet, the current situation is that this worthwhile service is done with either nil or an insignificant increase in hospital staff. The existing staff are therefore overtaxed and the dedication and devotion of the professions are taken advantage of. This must be corrected without delay.
Mr President, to give the best for the elderly requires more than just a pension allowance. It requires a well thought out policy direction to supply them with their daily needs and the choices they have made. If we cannot properly provide life for years for those who have served Hong Kong in the past, then, Mr President, we have failed to call ourselves a caring and sharing society.
MR HUANG CHEN-YA (in Cantonese): Mr President, I support today's motion, and I would also like to speak on the issue of medical care.
Mr President, prevention is better than cure. As one grows older, the chance for old people to suffer from illness increases, especially chronic illness. Not only has the number of old people suffering from such illnesses increased, but the number who have been crippled or incapacitated by these illnesses has also increased. The most serious cases are those whose mobility has deteriorated, whose hearing and vision have degenerated and whose ability to look after themselves has gone downhill.
Elderly health centres can help the old people by keeping them healthy, to guard against diseases, to detect diseases early and to have the diseases cured before they get any worse. This means that we should treat the diseases at their incipient stage of development so that the degree of crippling or incapacitation will be contained as much as possible. A lot of international experience has shown that preventive physical examinations can minimize hospitalization of the elderly and improve their zest for life and quality of living. It is a good start for the Government to plan for three elderly health centres. Unfortunately, that is just a start. If old people have to travel a long way to these elderly health