HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 12 January 1994 1659 OFFICIAL RECORD OF PROCEEDINGS
Wednesday, 12 January 1994
The Council met at half-past Two o'clock
PRESENT
THE PRESIDENT'S DEPUTY
THE HONOURABLE MRS ELSIE TU, C.B.E.
THE CHIEF SECRETARY
THE HONOURABLE MRS ANSON CHAN, C.B.E., J.P.
THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY
THE HONOURABLE SIR NATHANIEL WILLIAM HAMISH MACLEOD, K.B.E., J.P.
THE ATTORNEY GENERAL
THE HONOURABLE JEREMY FELL MATHEWS, C.M.G., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE ALLEN LEE PENG-FEI, C.B.E., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE MRS SELINA CHOW LIANG SHUK-YEE, O.B.E., J.P. THE HONOURABLE HUI YIN-FAT, O.B.E., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE MARTIN LEE CHU-MING, Q.C., J.P.
DR THE HONOURABLE DAVID LI KWOK-PO, O.B.E., LL.D., J.P. THE HONOURABLE NGAI SHIU-KIT, O.B.E., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE PANG CHUN-HOI, M.B.E.
THE HONOURABLE SZETO WAH
THE HONOURABLE TAM YIU-CHUNG
THE HONOURABLE ANDREW WONG WANG-FAT, O.B.E., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE LAU WONG-FAT, O.B.E., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE EDWARD HO SING-TIN, O.B.E., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE RONALD JOSEPH ARCULLI, O.B.E., J.P.
1660 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 12 January 1994 THE HONOURABLE MRS PEGGY LAM, O.B.E., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE MRS MIRIAM LAU KIN-YEE, O.B.E., J.P. THE HONOURABLE LAU WAH-SUM, O.B.E., J.P.
DR THE HONOURABLE LEONG CHE-HUNG, O.B.E., J.P. THE HONOURABLE JAMES DAVID McGREGOR, O.B.E., I.S.O., J.P. THE HONOURABLE PETER WONG HONG-YUEN, O.B.E., J.P. THE HONOURABLE ALBERT CHAN WAI-YIP
THE HONOURABLE VINCENT CHENG HOI-CHUEN, O.B.E., J.P. THE HONOURABLE MOSES CHENG MO-CHI
THE HONOURABLE MARVIN CHEUNG KIN-TUNG, O.B.E., J.P. THE HONOURABLE CHEUNG MAN-KWONG
THE HONOURABLE CHIM PUI-CHUNG
REV THE HONOURABLE FUNG CHI-WOOD
THE HONOURABLE FREDERICK FUNG KIN-KEE
THE HONOURABLE TIMOTHY HA WING-HO, M.B.E., J.P. THE HONOURABLE MICHAEL HO MUN-KA
DR THE HONOURABLE HUANG CHEN-YA
THE HONOURABLE SIMON IP SIK-ON, O.B.E., J.P.
DR THE HONOURABLE LAM KUI-CHUN
DR THE HONOURABLE CONRAD LAM KUI-SHING, J.P. THE HONOURABLE LAU CHIN-SHEK
THE HONOURABLE EMILY LAU WAI-HING
THE HONOURABLE LEE WING-TAT
THE HONOURABLE ERIC LI KA-CHEUNG, J.P.
THE HONOURABLE FRED LI WAH-MING
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 12 January 1994 1661 THE HONOURABLE MAN SAI-CHEONG
THE HONOURABLE STEVEN POON KWOK-LIM
THE HONOURABLE HENRY TANG YING-YEN, J.P.
THE HONOURABLE TIK CHI-YUEN
THE HONOURABLE JAMES TO KUN-SUN
DR THE HONOURABLE SAMUEL WONG PING-WAI, M.B.E., J.P. DR THE HONOURABLE PHILIP WONG YU-HONG
DR THE HONOURABLE YEUNG SUM
THE HONOURABLE HOWARD YOUNG, J.P.
THE HONOURABLE ZACHARY WONG WAI-YIN
DR THE HONOURABLE TANG SIU-TONG, J.P.
THE HONOURABLE CHRISTINE LOH KUNG-WAI
THE HONOURABLE ROGER LUK KOON-HOO
THE HONOURABLE ANNA WU HUNG-YUK
THE HONOURABLE JAMES TIEN PEI-CHUN, O.B.E., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE ALFRED TSO SHIU-WAI
ABSENT
THE PRESIDENT
THE HONOURABLE JOHN JOSEPH SWAINE, C.B.E., LL.D., Q.C., J.P. THE HONOURABLE MARTIN GILBERT BARROW, O.B.E., J.P.
IN ATTENDANCE
MR ALISTAIR PETER ASPREY, C.B.E., A.E., J.P.
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY
MRS ELIZABETH WONG CHIEN CHI-LIEN, I.S.O., J.P.
SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE
1662 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 12 January 1994
THE HONOURABLE MICHAEL SZE CHO-CHEUNG, I.S.O., J.P. SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS
MR ANTHONY GORDON EASON, J.P.
SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS
MR HAIDER HATIM TYEBJEE BARMA, I.S.O., J.P.
SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT
MR GORDON SIU KWING-CHUE, J.P.
SECRETARY FOR ECONOMIC SERVICES
MR STUART WREFORD HARBINSON, J.P.
SECRETARY FOR THE CIVIL SERVICE
MR LAM WOON-KWONG, J.P.
SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER
MR TAM WING-PONG
SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES
THE CLERK TO THE LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL
MR CLETUS LAU KWOK-HONG
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 12 January 1994 1663 Papers
The following papers were laid on the table pursuant to Standing Order 14(2): Subject
Subsidiary Legislation L.N. No. Antibiotics (Amendment) Regulation 1993.................................................. 480/93 Allowances to Jurors (Amendment) Order 1993.......................................... 481/93
Smoking (Public Health) (Notices) (Amendment)
(No. 2) Order 1992 (Amendment) (No. 2)
Order 1993 ........................................................................................... 482/93
Smoking (Public Health) (Notices) (Amendment)
(No. 2) Order 1992 (L.N. 413 of 1992)
(Commencement) (No. 2) Notice 1993 ................................................ 483/93
Solicitors' Practice (Amendment) (No. 2)
Rules 1993............................................................................................ 484/93
Hawker (Permitted Place) (Cessation)
Declaration 1993 .................................................................................. 485/93
Education (Overseas Tertiary Institutions)
(Exemption) Order ............................................................................... 487/93
Continuing Legal Education (Amendment) (No. 2)
Rules 1993............................................................................................ 488/93
Building Management (Fees) (Amendment)
Regulation 1993 ................................................................................... 490/93
Port Control (Public Water-Front) (No. 3)
Order 1993 ........................................................................................... 491/93 Prisons (Hostel) (Amendment) Order 1993.................................................. 492/93 Prisons (Amendment) (No. 2) Order 1993 ................................................... 493/93
Public Health and Municipal Services (Public
Pleasure Grounds) (Amendment of Fourth
Schedule) (No. 8) Order 1993 .............................................................. 494/93
1664 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 12 January 1994
Food Business (Regional Council) (Amendment)
(No. 2) Bylaw 1993 .............................................................................. 495/93
Banking (Specification of Class of Exempted
Charges) Notice.................................................................................... 496/93
Banking (Amendment) Ordinance 1993 (94 of 1993)
(Commencement) Notice 1993............................................................. 497/93 Hawker (Permitted Place) Declaration 1993 ................................................ 498/93 Specification of Public Office ...................................................................... 499/93
Boilers and Pressure Vessels (Amendment)
Regulation 1994 ................................................................................... 1/94 Film Censorship (Amendment) Regulation 1994 ......................................... 2/94
Insurance Companies (Authorization and Annual
Fees) (Amendment) Regulation 1994................................................... 3/94
Employees Retraining Ordinance
(Amendment of Schedule 2) Notice 1994 ............................................ 4/94
Sessional Papers 1993-94
No. 47 — Report on the Administration of the
Fire Services Welfare Fund
for the Year Ended 31 March 1992
No. 48 — Hong Kong Council on Smoking and Health
Annual Report 1992-93
No. 49 — The Government Minute in Response to the
Report of the Public Accounts Committee
Dated October 1993
Miscellaneous
Report of the Boundary and Election Commission
PRESIDENT'S DEPUTY: The President sends his apologies. He is indisposed this afternoon. We will start with an address.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 12 January 1994 1665 Address
The Government Minute in Response to the Report of the Public Accounts Committee Dated October 1993
CHIEF SECRETARY: Madam deputy, I refer to the remarks made by the Public Accounts Committee Chairman in his speech in this Chamber on 13 October 1993. I wish to report that the recommendation made by the PAC in its report 20A, that is, that important survey data should always be retained in some retrievable form for subsequent verification, is fully accepted by the Administration. The Chairman has suggested that in seeking funding approval, the Administration tends to fail to provide all the necessary details for Finance Committee to make its decision. This apparently stems from the PAC's view that when Finance Committee's approval for the compensation package for the Kowloon Walled City was sought, the Administration had not told Finance Committee that the cash compensation for absentee owners of multiple flats would be calculated at the same rate as that for their first flats. The Administration has since given its reasons for not drawing attention to this measure. Such reasons are set out in the PAC's report. I will only add that in seeking funding from Finance Committee the Administration's policy is to put forward all relevant facts. There is no intention whatsoever to withhold information deliberately. The Administration has noted the PAC's concern and has drawn it to the attention of heads of departments.
Oral answers to questions
Tax loan advertisements
1. MR LAU WAH-SUM asked: Regarding the tax loan packages recently advertised in newspapers by major banks in Hong Kong, will the Government inform this Council of:
(a) the existing legislation or measures to monitor the contents of this kind of advertisements; and
(b) what the Government will do to safeguard public interests where the contents of advertisements are found to be incomplete and inaccurate?
SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES: Madam deputy,
(a) There is no specific legislation or measure targetted at monitoring advertisements on tax loans. However, section 95 of the Banking Ordinance provides that where the Monetary Authority is of the opinion that any advertisement issued in connexion with the business of an authorized institution makes a statement or any representation
1666 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 12 January 1994
which is false, misleading or deceptive, he may, by notice in writing served on the institution, require the institution to withdraw or, as the circumstances require, remove, and cease issuing such advertisements and an authorized institution served with such a notice shall, accordingly, comply with that notice. The provision may apply to advertisements on tax loans inasmuch as it applies to other bank products and services.
(b) There is no single piece of legislation devoted to the regulation of contents of advertisements but there are schemes of control governing advertising of specific products or services. For instance, there are statutory provisions regarding advertising of certain categories of financial instruments for the purpose of protecting investors; advertising in the electronic media is also subject to standards prescribed by statutory codes of practice which include a general requirement that the advertisements should be honest and truthful.
Advertisement is used by advertisers to draw public attention to the favourable aspects of the goods or services rendered in order to promote sale. It is therefore not possible to expect completely precise or objective information in an advertisement. Consumers must safeguard their own interest by exercising good care before taking a decision to procure the goods or service on offer and not relying solely on the wordings or descriptions in the advertisements.
In this regard, consumer education is an important element to help safeguarding the interests of consumers. The Consumer Council has been doing a very useful job here. On the question of tax loans, for instance, the Council has in January 1989 and again in February 1991 published articles in its publication CHOICE analysing the matter to the public. I understand that a future article on the subject will be published in the next issue of CHOICE.
In any event, should members of the public feel aggrieved by an advertisement, he may bring the matter up to the authorities concerned for possible action.
MR LAU WAH-SUM (in Cantonese): Madam deputy, in order to ensure that the contents of such advertisements will not mislead the public, can the Administration request banks to specify in their loan advertisements the methods of calculating interest both on a monthly and on an annual basis?
SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES: Madam deputy, there is more than one way of expressing the interest rate for tax loans and there is no objection whatsoever as to why the bank should not be publishing one rate
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 12 January 1994 1667
rather than the other. We have already conveyed this concern to the Hong Kong Association of Banks (HKAB) and asked them to urge banks to provide as much information about tax loans as possible.
MRS SELINA CHOW (in Cantonese): Madam deputy, will the Administration inform this Council whether or not the government departments or the Consumer Council have kept a close eye on this kind of advertisements to ascertain that their contents are up to acceptable standards?
SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES (in Cantonese): Madam deputy, the Consumer Council seldom or in fact has not received compliants about "tax loan packages". There is no requirement for tax loan advertisements to be examined before they are published. As to whether the contents of these advertisements are misleading, or whether they have violated the law, the Consumer Council, as I have said, did explain this in detail in the past two issues of its publication. Individual complaints, if any, will be referred to individual committees or the Hong Kong Monetary Authority for action.
MR PETER WONG: Madam deputy, it is not so much a matter of providing a so-called full range of information to the public but a necessity to ensure consistency of the information. Will the Government request all the banks to adopt voluntarily a common definition of interest in relation to these tax loans so that they all compete on a level playing field and the public is not thereby misled?
SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES: Madam deputy, at present banks are free to operate their business in their own way. In fact banks are self-regulating businesses and unless there is overriding reason in the public interest for us to require banks to do something, we would like to leave it to the banks to run their own business. As I said earlier on, an advertisement being an advertisement, it really is there to draw public attention to the favourable aspects of facilities or services on offer by a bank. But it is also up to the client or the consumer to ask questions before he enters into any contractual relation with the bank in regard to a bank loan. So it would not be realistic to expect banks to put all the information into an advertisement, which would be tantamount to getting them to print the whole contractual document out in the newspaper, when it will no longer be an advertisement. So to enable clients to protect their own interests, it is imperative that they have the right to ask questions and this right is there, guaranteed by HKAB. And banks are also encouraged to provide as much information as possible upon enquiry.
PRESIDENT'S DEPUTY: Is this a follow-up, Mr WONG?
1668 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 12 January 1994
MR PETER WONG: Yes, Madam deputy. My point was not to provide so much information but to make sure that the banks provide consistent and common information so that all advertisements are talking about the same thing.
PRESIDENT'S DEPUTY: Can you answer that, Secretary?
SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES: Madam deputy, I can only refer this to HKAB to see whether there is a technical problem in adopting this suggestion.
MR FREDERICK FUNG (in Cantonese): Madam deputy, I have a follow-up question to raise. Will the Administration advise the Consumer Council to step up publicity on this so that complainants will come forward? In fact, I have raised the issue with the Consumer Council and learnt that even if they receive such complaints, they do not have the authority to handle them. Will the Administration give the Consumer Council more power in this respect?
SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES (in Cantonese): Madam deputy, the Consumer Council has been keeping an eye on the matter. As I said in a previous answer, the Consumer Council did on two occasions, and will do so again in the near future, publish a detailed review on this. As to the question of authority, should anyone find such advertisements have violated the law, he can lodge a complaint with the Monetary Authority who may take action under the Banking Ordinance against any bank found to have published advertisements which are deceptive and against public interest. In this regard, the Administration can look into it to see if the granting of such power to the Consumer Council is justified and necessary.
DR PHILIP WONG (in Cantonese): Madam deputy, in paragraph (a) of his reply, the Secretary made no mention about what action the Administration would take against a bank found to have issued deceptive advertisement and whether it would be penalized.
SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES (in Cantonese): Madam deputy, as far as this is concerned, the Monetary Authority may exercise its power to take punitive action against any bank found to have violated the Banking Ordinance. The heaviest penalty will be the revocation of the bank's licence.
MR LAU WAH-SUM (in Cantonese): Madam deputy, has the Monetary Authority ever required a bank to withdraw such advertisements under section 95 of the Banking Ordinance?
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 12 January 1994 1669
SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES (in Cantonese): Madam deputy, the Authority has never, as far as I know, taken such action under the Ordinance for it has received no complaint of this nature.
DR CONRAD LAM (in Cantonese): Madam deputy, has the Secretary or his branch found any such advertisements in newspapers which may mislead the public? If yes, could he advise us who they are?
SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES (in Cantonese): Madam deputy, having been drawn to the attention to the problem, we did take a close look at some of these advertisements in the press. We do not think the contents of these advertisements have anything that intend to mislead the public.
Question No. 2 withdrawn
Island Eastern Corridor traffic
3. MRS MIRIAM LAU asked (in Cantonese): As the traffic flow of the Eastern Harbour Crossing during peak hours has reached saturation, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) whether due attention has been given to the problem; and
(b) what measures will be taken to improve the traffic congestion?
SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT: Madam deputy, Eastern Harbour Crossing traffic has increased at a very rapid rate. After the first full year of its operation, the daily average number of vehicles using this tunnel stood at 38 000. Now, four years later after the tunnel opening, the daily average figure is 87 000. Since the Island Eastern Corridor is the main artery leading to and from the Hong Kong entrance of the tunnel, traffic on this road has, of course, correspondingly increased.
The Transport Department continuously monitors traffic volumes on all major roads. There is indeed congestion along the Island Eastern Corridor caused by Eastern Harbour Crossing traffic during both the morning rush, between 8-10 am, and the evening peak from 6-8 pm. This, in turn has caused some disruption to traffic bound for Tai Koo Shing and further easteards towards Chai Wan.
The measures taken to address this problem have been to try to segregate traffic queuing for the tunnel from through traffic. In June last year, the road markings on the Island Eastern Corridor eastbound were modified to provide an
1670 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 12 January 1994
additional lane for traffic entering the tunnel. Last week, gantry signs and road markings were further modified to reduce the obstruction caused to eastbound through traffic caused by vehicles queuing to enter the tunnel. A tidal flow arrangement has also been tried out in the tunnel by providing an additional lane for Kowloon bound traffic during the evening rush. Whilst this eased pressure on the Island Eastern Corridor, the experiment did not prove too successful since it resulted in long queues in Kwun Tong for Hong Kong bound traffic.
The Transport Department will continue to monitor the traffic situation along the Island Eastern Corridor closely and will, in co-ordination with the New Hong Kong Tunnel Company and the police, take whatever additional measures are practical to enhance traffic flow through the Eastern Harbour Crossing and along the Island Eastern Corridor.
MRS MIRIAM LAU (in Cantonese): Madam deputy, since the introduction of new traffic arrangements for the Eastern Harbour Crossing on 3 January, congestion on the Island Eastern Corridor seems to have improved. If however the number of vehicles using the Eastern Harbour Crossing continues to increase and queues on the Island Eastern Corridor for entering the tunnel extend to the flyover, then the new measures will fail and traffic congestion will occur again. Has the Administration started to look at the longer-term solution to traffic congestion on the Island Eastern Corridor caused by Eastern Harbour Crossing traffic, such as widening part of the Island Eastern Corridor, or providing an additional lane so that there is through traffic without having to share the lane with tunnel traffic?
SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT: Madam deputy, since the lanes were remarked earlier this week, as Mrs LAU has said, there has been some improvement but the long-term solution really lies in the Western Harbour Crossing which is scheduled to become operational a few years from now. The point is that traffic has built up over the past few years. And at present, unless practical constraints are introduced to ban certain classes of vehicles from certain roads at certain times of the day, I am afraid that during rush hours there will be congestion.
Coming back to the Island Eastern Corridor, as I said, the Transport Department will continue to monitor the situation. There are other schemes which are being considered and that is to ban traffic from North Point via Man Hong Street sliproad from using the Eastern Harbour Crossing and perhaps to introduce traffic signals at the merging point of Man Hong Street sliproad with the Island Eastern Corridor. A long-term possible solution may also be to construct a flyover to separate the straight ahead moving traffic to Chai Wan from that entering the Eastern Harbour Crossing. But the long-term solution I am afraid will have to await the Western Harbour Crossing.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 12 January 1994 1671
MR VINCENT CHENG: Madam deputy, I think my question has been answered because I was thinking of asking what sort of additional measures the Secretary is going to take to reduce the traffic there. Thank you.
MR RONALD ARCULLI: Madam deputy, would the Secretary be good enough to confirm that, in view of what he has said, increase of tunnel tolls will not be one of the measures that the Government is contemplating?
SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT: Madam deputy, I am afraid I can give no such assurance. With regard to applications for increase of tunnel tolls, the initiative rests with the tunnel companies. And if and when they apply obviously the Government will have to consider their applications. But at that point in time, certainly traffic volumes will be taken into account.
MR EDWARD HO (in Cantonese): Madam deputy, the Central to Jordan Road vehicular ferry service will cease operation by the end of this month. Does the Administration have an estimate on the number of vehicles that will be diverted to the Eastern Harbour Crossing after the termination of service and hence adding to the congestion of the Eastern Harbour Crossing? Will the Administration take appropriate measures to cope with the sudden increase in the number of vehicles using the Eastern Harbour Crossing?
SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT: Madam deputy, our assessment is that the number of vehicles using the vehicular ferry from Jordan Road to Central is about 5 000 a day. In terms of total traffic, this number should not add too much to the congestion on the Island Eastern Corridor or in either of the two cross harbour tunnels. And the North Point to Kowloon City vehicular ferry service will continue to operate and that provides an alternative means.
MR NGAI SHIU-KIT (in Cantonese): Madam deputy, can the Administration confirm whether at certain times of the day, the traffic volumes of the Eastern Harbour Crossing and the Cross Harbour Tunnel are similar in size, and that when traffic builds up in one of the tunnels, the other does not have traffic congestion? If so, what arrangement or new facilities will be introduced to direct motorists to choose the less congested tunnel?
SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT: Madam deputy, I am afraid that both tunnels are pretty congested during rush hours. The figures as I mentioned just now are 87 000 for the Eastern Harbour Crossing and 123 000 for the Cross Harbour Tunnel. In terms of hourly traffic throughput during the rush hours, the Eastern Harbour Crossing can cope with 3 600 vehicles per hour, whereas
1672 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 12 January 1994
for the Cross Harbour Tunnel the figure is slightly lower, at 3 400. The reason for this is that more buses and heavy vehicles use the Cross Harbour Tunnel.
MR MOSES CHENG (in Cantonese): Madam deputy, according to the Transport Department, traffic congestion in the Eastern Harbour Crossing, to a certain extent, is due to under utilization of the exact fare system. We also know that the Eastern Harbour Crossing has not introduced autotoll. Does the Administration have any measures to encourage motorists to use the exact fare system or will it in the near future request the management company of the Eastern Harbour Crossing to introduce autotoll so as to enhance traffic flow?
SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT: Madam deputy, the installation of autotoll is the initiative of the management companies of both the tunnels. The Government has not imposed any requirement for either company to introduce autotoll. Personally, I believe that autotoll does alleviate congestion to a certain degree. But having said that, the total volume of cars through both tunnels will remain much the same. And so although autotoll may facilitate and save a few minutes for those who use this system, the total volume of traffic will remain much the same.
MR FRED LI (in Cantonese): Madam deputy, I have raised a similar question several months ago. My concern is traffic congestion in the Kwun Tong area while Mrs LAU's concern is that of the Island Eastern Corridor. But both places are having the same problem. It can be seen that traffic volume has increased from over 20 000 at the beginning to over 80 000 now. The vehicular ferry facilities adjacent to the Kwun Tong Ferry Pier have been laid idle since its construction and were criticized by the Public Accounts Committee as a big waste. Will the Administration consider putting these facilities back to use as soon as possible so as to ease the traffic in Kwun Tong and the vehicular traffic across the harbour and at the same time not to let these new facilities stand idle?
SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT: Madam deputy, the problem is that as far as the vehicular ferry services from Central are concerned, both piers will be affected by reclamation works towards the end of this month and during the second half of June. One of the problems in providing for alternative vehicular ferry services is the difficulty in finding a site as a holding area for waiting vehicles. And another problem is that a vehicular ferry trip from Central to Kwun Tong will take far too long, much longer than it takes to queue up for entering the tunnels. So whilst I will certainly be prepared to ask the Transport Department to reconsider the proposal as suggested by Mr LI, personally I do not think it is a very optimistic or practical solution.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 12 January 1994 1673
MR JAMES TIEN: Madam deputy, it is obvious that the Island Eastern Corridor's traffic congestion is caused by the increase in the daily average number of vehicles using the Eastern Harbour Crossing, from 38 000 to 87 000. The other tunnel, as the Secretary said, is also very congested. One of the reasons obviously is that the tunnel toll of $10 has not been increased for over 10 years. Just from the point of view of catching up with inflation, will the Government please inform this Council whether consideration will be given to increasing the tunnel toll to reduce traffic jams in both tunnels and indeed in the territory as a whole?
SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT: Madam deputy, I think, as I said earlier, the initiative for applications for increase in tunnel tolls rests with the two companies concerned. I think other Members in this Council may find it difficult to support a government move to seek increase in tunnel tolls.
DR CONRAD LAM (in Cantonese): Madam deputy, in his reply to Mrs Miriam LAU's supplementary earlier, the Secretary mentioned that certain classes of vehicles would be banned from certain roads at certain times of the day. Would the Secretary inform this Council what specific measures are being considered and whether the public will be consulted before the introduction of these measures?
SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT: Madam deputy, traffic constraint is obviously a subject to which I am giving priority. And I have convened a small "Think Tank" within the Transport Branch and I am also seeking the views of other government departments. I hope to have some ideas on which to consult the Transport Panel of this Council within the next two or three months.
MRS SELINA CHOW (in Cantonese): Madam deputy, the Secretary said in answer to Mr Moses CHENG's supplementary that the installation of autotoll was the initiative of the tunnel companies and that the Administration could not impose any requirement for the introduction of autotoll. Nevertheless, he did believe that this method could alleviate traffic congestion. Though traffic throughput would remain much the same, autotoll has the advantage of saving time for those who use the system and so facilitating traffic flow along the Island Eastern Corridor. In this connection, I would like to ask the Secretary whether the Administration would take the initiative and write to the management company of the Eastern Harbour Crossing, requesting it to give full consideration to the introduction of autotoll.
SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT: Madam deputy, the Government is in fact in dialogue with both tunnel companies and the Transport Department in particular is in constant touch with them regarding the practicality of autotoll. One of the
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problems of course is not the installation of autotoll itself but the shortage of approach and egress roads. And I think the throughput and exit points must also be borne in mind. Another difficulty is that as the installation of autotoll is not mandatory, we must also make sure that others who do not use the autotoll are not unduly delayed.
Immigration facilities at Kai Tai and Lo Wu
4. MR MOSES CHENG asked (in Cantonese): Will the Administration provide this Council with a detailed comparison of the immigration facilities (for example, size of waiting hall and the number of counters) and the manning scale in relation to the passenger
flow at Kai Tak and Lo Wu; and indicate what short-term and medium-term plans are in hand to improve the congestion at these immigration points?
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY: Madam deputy, there are almost twice as many counters at Kai Tak as there are at Lo Wu — 166 compared to 88. The waiting halls at Kai Tak are slightly bigger than the waiting halls at Lo Wu — 4 600 sq m compared to 4 400 sq m. There are approximately twice as many travellers going through Lo Wu every day as through Kai Tak.
The reason for this is that almost all of the travellers passing through Lo Wu are Hong Kong residents and need much less time for clearance than overseas visitors who are the majority of passengers at Kai Tak. Therefore, less space and fewer facilities are required at Lo Wu.
The manning scales are based on the overall target that 92% of the people clearing immigration should normally queue for no longer than half an hour.
In order to cope with increasing demand 70 additional immigration posts will be provided at Lo Wu later this year, bringing the total counter staff to over 300. This will enable better use to be made of the existing facilities. In addition, an Immigration Task Force, with 46 staff, will also be created this year to deal with special investigations, and to reinforce control points, including Lo Wu and Kai Tak during busy periods.
A major extension is being added to the existing terminal at Lo Wu and it is scheduled to come into operation in 1995. This will provide an additional 72 counters for which 70 extra posts will be provided.
New procedures are being introduced at both Lo Wu and Kai Tak. In September this year, optical readers will be installed to speed up immigration clearance of Hong Kong identity card holders and, in September 1995, this will be extended to visitors holding machine-readable passports.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 12 January 1994 1675
MR MOSES CHENG (in Cantonese): Madam deputy, we all know that the number of passengers going through Kai Tak and Lo Wu in normal days can differ greatly from that at major holidays and festivals. Can the Secretary inform this Council the average waiting times of travellers in normal days and at major holidays and festivals and whether the target of the Administration to improve passenger flow can be achieved?
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY: Madam deputy, I think what I can say is that during normal periods passengers are cleared within the target of 30 minutes and it is, as Mr CHENG points out, during particularly busy periods of the day, during some periods of weekends and also at major holidays and festivals that it is difficult sometimes to meet the targets. But overall at Lo Wu some 90% of passengers are cleared within the target of 30 minutes. It is our hope that both through streamlining and improvement of immigration clearance procedures and by the provision of additional resources we will be able to improve on this 90% in the coming years.
MR HENRY TANG: Madam deputy, the Secretary says that since 92% of the people clear immigration within half an hour, it is obviously acceptable. Why does he think that it is reasonable that we should ask the travellors to queue for half an hour?
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY: Madam deputy, that is a maximum time, it is not an average time. There are inevitably going to be, at any immigration control point, periods when there is bound to be much greater congestion than at other periods, much greater congestion than normal. One need only, for example, think of the Lunar New Year where so many people travel that it would not be practicable to provide facilities to clear all those people within the same space of time that one could clear people on a normal weekday. Thirty minutes as a maximum has for a long time been our target and we believe that that is a reasonable target in terms of normal international practice and international comparisons.
MR EDWARD HO: Madam deputy, my question is quite similar to that of Mr Henry TANG, which is that there would be many travellers through Lo Wu who actually are daily commuters on business trips. Would the Government feel that half an hour is acceptable for that kind of situation as they are quite different from international travellers?
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY: Madam deputy, at present there is a particularly busy period in both directions during the pre-work time of the morning and certainly some people will have to wait for 30 minutes during that period. As I said, we do hope that both from improving the clearance
1676 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 12 January 1994
procedures and by provision of additional resources we can make some improvement. And certainly looking further to the future, it is hoped that for regular travellers travelling on Hong Kong identity cards, we can have a much easier system to enable them to go through immigration at Lo Wu. But it will take some time before the technology for this is introduced and in operation.
MR NGAI SHIU-KIT (in Cantonese): Madam deputy, referring to the long-term and short term plans in this respect, will the Secretary inform this Council if the Administration has discussed or needs to discuss the matter with China with a view to taking co-ordinated actions to effectively clear travellers at Lo Wu? If not, how long had discussions been terminated? If they had been terminated, when was the last discussion held?
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY: Madam deputy, there is very regular consultation and co operation between the immigration staff in Hong Kong and their counterparts in China. Obviously there needs to be co-operation and co-ordination, particularly on opening hours of the various border control points and this is done on a very regular basis. And I do not believe that there has been any problem as a result of lack of co-operation either recently or in the recent past.
MRS PEGGY LAM (in Cantonese): Madam deputy, since clearance at Lo Wu is far quicker for identity card holders than passport holders, can the Administration inform this Council whether consideration will be given to separating the queues for these two groups of people so that identity card holders do not have to take 30 minutes to clear through customs?
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY: Madam deputy, I think we need to remember that at Lo Wu some 95% of passengers going through that control point are Hong Kong residents, the great majority of them travelling on ID cards. There are already separate counters at Lo Wu for residents and for non-residents. But given the overwhelming preponderance of residents travelling on ID cards. there is little more that can be done in the way of segregation.
DR TANG SIU-TONG (in Cantonese): Madam deputy, it is mentioned in the third paragraph of the Administration's reply that the overall target is 92% of the people clearing immigration should normally queue for no longer than half an hour. May I ask why it is 92% and not 100%?
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY: Madam deputy, as I think I explained in answer to an earlier supplementary, there are bound to be, during the course of the year, some periods when both the airport and Lo Wu are going to be
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 12 January 1994 1677
extremely busy, far busier in terms of the volumes of traffic than on a normal day. And it would not be practicable, cost effective or realistic to think that we can provide facilities to cope with these surges in demand in the same way as we can cope with normal daily passenger flow. So there are bound to be some periods when waiting time will be longer than normal times.
REV FUNG CHI-WOOD (in Cantonese): Madam deputy, there have been many complaints in the past about long waiting time at Lo Wu and there has been a rapid increase in the number of people going through this control point in the past few years. Can the Secretary inform this Council when the Administration last increased manpower at Lo Wu? Why does it have to take so long to increase manpower until this year? Will consideration be given to having a review at least every two years to ascertain that there are sufficient staff?
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY: Madam deputy, I think perhaps I could say, to start with, that there have not in fact been all that many complaints, nor do I think the number of complaints is on the increase in any singificant way. In the past six months there were something like 17 complaints at Kai Tak and about the same number at Lo Wu, which, given the volume of traffic, is not a very large number. I do, however, accept the point that the increase in staff at Lo Wu and at Kai Tak has not really kept pace with the increase in traffic. It has, nevertheless, been possible to prevent a deterioration in standards and in clearance times through a number of measures which the Immigration Department has taken to speed up the clearance procedures at control points. That is by an increase in the productivity of the immigration staff at these control points. And I think that is greatly to the Immigration Department's credit, but this is, I agree, something that we shall need to monitor carefully and make sure that resources do keep pace with demand.
MR WONG WAI-YIN (in Cantonese): Madam deputy, it is mentioned in the fourth paragraph of the Secretary's reply that 70 additional immigration posts will be provided later this year. What does he mean by "later"? And to what extent can waiting time be reduced after these 70 posts have been created?
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY: Madam deputy, the increase in staff will take effect from 1 April this year. I do not think I could say definitely now what improvement will be achieved by these additional 70 staff but it is a very significant increase in terms of counter staff. And I would expect to see an improvement both in the average waiting time to go through the control point and in the percentage of passengers that are cleared within the target time of 30 minutes.
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MR PETER WONG: Madam deputy, the Secretary, in the last paragraph of his reply, mentioned that optical readers will be installed. As far as I can see the ID cards are not capable of being read optically at the moment. Does this mean that we will be issued with new identity cards between now and September, so that the new optical readers, which presumably work on the bar code basis, will be able to read the ID cards?
PRESIDENT'S DEPUTY: Secretary for Security, are you able to answer that question?
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY: Madam deputy, yes, I am able to. I think that the ID cards are capable of being read by machine readers.
MRS SELINA CHOW (in Cantonese): Madam deputy, the 92% mentioned by the Secretary is in fact misleading as 92% is only a target. The information we have got reveals that actually on public holidays and weekends, two-thirds of the travellers have to wait for over half an hour and one-third of them even have to wait for more than an hour. Will the Secretary provide the figures in writing to explain how the waiting times of over an hour and half an hour can be reduced following the increase of 70 staff on 1 April this year as mentioned by the Secretary? And when staff is further increased in 1995, what will be the target in terms of reducing waiting time for the large number of travellers?
PRESIDENT'S DEPUTY: Secretary, maybe you can answer some of those questions.
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY: Madam deputy, yes, 92% is a target. It is not the achievement. At Lo Wu we fall slightly short of the target at present. 90% of passengers going through Lo Wu are cleared within the target of 30 minutes, so 10% fall short of that target. At Kai Tak, 95% of passengers are cleared within the target time of 30 minutes, so we exceed the target at Kai Tak. It is certainly our intention that the additional staff that we will provide at Lo Wu from 1 April this year will be able to improve, I hope significantly, the performance at Lo Wu as well. It is the case that there are particular times, and this particularly applies at the major holidays, when a substantial percentage of people will have to wait for more than half an hour.
Interbank money market volatility
5. MR ROGER LUK asked: Will the Administration advise this Council what measures are being taken to prevent the recurrence of undue volatility of the interbank money market and pressure on Hong Kong Interbank Offered
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 12 January 1994 1679
Rated (HIBOR) arising from the massive over-subscription of new share issues as in the case of 7 December 1993?
SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES: Madam deputy, the tightness of the interbank market on 7 December 1993 was caused by a major Initial Public Offering which was closed for subscription on that day. The application monies in that particular instance amounted to $100 billion. Recycling of such monies did not go well and caused a rise in the overnight Hong Kong Interbank Offer Rate. It was affected by the constraints of prudent interbank credit limits which, on the earlier advice of the Hong Kong Monetary Authority, had to be observed. Moreover, there was the uncertainty faced by the receiving bank in estimating the amount involved in application cheques which had not yet been counted. In the end, substantial funds had to be channelled through the Liquidity Adjustment Facility operated by the Hong Kong Monetary Authority.
It is noteworthy, however, that the volatility in the interbank money market in this instance had in fact been much milder when compared with over-subscriptions in certain new issues in the mid-1980s as a result of monetary reform measures put in place in recent years.
In order to improve the recycling of application monies in the interbank market in future, the Hong Kong Monetary Authority has written to the Hong Kong Association of Banks (HKAB) in December 1993 suggesting that:
(a) banks should pre-arrange the necessary credit lines with the receiving bank and/or other banks before extending credit to their customers for new share subscription;
(b) the deadline for submitting applications should be advanced from noon to 10 am to give the receiving bank more time to process and count the application cheques; and
(c) the banks should encourage the use of electronic payments, instead of paper based cheques, which would facilitate large value fund transfers and risk management.
These measures, if adopted, should improve the efficiency of the recycling process.
On the other hand, it must be admitted that to a large extent the problem has been caused by the very substantial over-subscription for the Initial Public Offering, resulting in the massive accumulation of monies in the receiving bank. The Administration has asked the Stock Exchange of Hong Kong and the Securities and Futures Commission to examine possible ways to reduce the impact brought about by such over-subscriptions.
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The Stock Exchange of Hong Kong has in the past few months implemented a number of measures aimed primarily at enabling investors to more accurately assess the pricing of and demand for an issue at the Initial Public Offering Stage, including requiring details of the spread of applications and for price earning ratios to be calculated on a fully diluted basis. In addition, listing rule changes requiring the issuer to reject any application for more than 100% of the securities on offer and to reject multiple applications are under consideration for implementation very soon.
The Stock Exchange and the Securities and Futures Commission are continuing to examine ways of improving the efficiency of the Initial Public Offering process.
In the meantime, the Hong Kong Monetary Authority will continue to monitor the operation of the money market and take appropriate action whenever necessary.
MR ROGER LUK: Madam deputy, given the inherent problems of the existing arrangements for initial public offerings in regard to monetary stability as indicated in the Secretary's answer, is the Administration seriously considering other arrangements, particularly competitive tendering as in the case of Exchange Fund bills, as a long-term solution?
SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES: Madam deputy, there are many ways for initial public offers. In fact the present system is only one of several. There are other methods under consideration that could be used by issuers. For example, there is one called the "book building system" which is quite commonly used in the United States. But the point is that we cannot impose the method of subscription on issuers. On the other hand, the Stock Exchange is now trying to encourage issuers to consider using other methods which would not create the same problem as does the one in use, that is to say, the problem of over-accumulation of funds and over-subscription.
MR MARVIN CHEUNG: Madam deputy, will the Administration advise this Council, pending a major revision of the method of listing, what role, if any, the Government, the Securities and Futures Commission (SFC) or the Hong Kong Monetary Authority will play in devising changes to the present method of listing to solve this problem, and whether the Stock Exchange will be required to implement these solutions?
SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES: Madam deputy, first of all, the role of the Hong Kong Monetary Authority is to facilitate the operation of the money market; so in terms of the method of public offer it is largely the responsibility of the Stock Exchange of Hong Kong (SEHK). In this regard, the
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SFC and the SEHK, in August 1993, issued a consultation document setting out all the findings and recommendations by a joint working party on the securities market implications on the level of over-subscription in recent initial public offerings. And if Members would like to see it, I can circulate a copy of this document containing all the recommendations. In fact some of the recommendations, for example, amendments to the Listing Rules requiring the publishing of details of the spread of application, and amendments to the Listing Rules requiring the price earning ratio to the calculated on a fully diluted basis have been implemented. And the SFC and the SEHK will continue to monitor the situation, and the Financial Services Branch will also take an interest in the way the situation develops.
MR ERIC LI: Madam deputy, is the particular incident caused by any artificial manipulation, particularly on the part of the receiving bank who had apparently sat on the funds for hours? And if so, in what way was the interbank market manipulated, and will the proposals given in the Government's reply be effective in preventing similar manipulation in future?
SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES: Madam deputy, Mr Eric LI's comment sounds very much like the comment made by the chairman of HKAB and reported in yesterday's papers about the role played by the receiving bank. Actually, the Hong Kong Monetary Authority has made a number of recommendations in this regard. The question is whether it is the receiving bank which is deliberately sitting on the money; this is for HKAB to find out. On the other hand, there is one practical problem we have discovered which is that the bank simply does not have the time to count all the monies in the books. That is why the Hong Kong Monetary Authority considers that one of the recommendations, that is, to advance the closing time for subscription to 10 am, is definitely going to have some effect in helping to ease the situation.
DR DAVID LI: Madam deputy, since history has shown now and in the past that the basic problem is caused by the pricing of the new issue, will the Administration begin a dialogue with the Hong Kong Stock Exchange and the merchant banks with a view to introducing more realistic pricing for initial public offerings?
SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES: Madam deputy, pricing has always been a complicated matter. The price of a stock reflects the equilibrium of supply and demand and also the market sentiment at that particular time, occasionally with relatively little reference to the underlying asset backing or price earning ratio. The conclusion that over-subscription reflects a pricing problem may not hold water in all circumstances. For example, the flotation of a high profit growth enterprise may attract substantial interest among the investing public even if the share price is fixed at a relatively high level. And,
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furthermore, because there is only a very small margin to be drawn between over-pricing and under-pricing an issue in Hong Kong, it is understandable that new issues are generally priced at a discount to compensate for greater market risk and to ensure that the offering will be fully subscribed, if not over-subscribed. We believe that the pricing of shares ought to be left to the issuer who will have regard to market conditions. But on the other hand, the Stock Exchange and the SFC of course would have to make sure that there is no unbecoming behaviour involved in the pricing of a stock.
MR VINCENT CHENG: Madam deputy, maybe I should first declare interest as a director of the Securities and Futures Commission. My question is: Was this particular incident the result of some problem in the system itself or was it the result of mismanagement by one bank, because there have been quite a large number of new issues and I can recall that there has never been so much volatility in each of those public offers?
PRESIDENT'S DEPUTY: Secretary for Financial Services, can you answer that question?
SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES: Madam deputy, I do not think I should discuss the details of an individual case. Yet, we do recognize that new issues occasionally will cause tightness in the money market and this is indeed a problem that the Monetary Authority and authorities concerned should address.
MR CHIM PUI-CHUNG (in Cantonese): Madam deputy, given that banks can safely provide credit facilities to clients applying for new issues, many banks provide subscribers of new issues with different levels of credit, that is offering different size of funds for new share subscriptions. What is the existing statutory credit limit in terms of different size of funds that banks can lend to their clients for subscription purposes? Why does the authority concerned not amend the relevant laws or take a temporary measure to limit the applications to not more than 100% of the new shares on offer so as to cool down the fervour of new issue subscriptions?
SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES: Madam deputy, the Hong Kong Monetary Authority has advised banks to limit their exposure to borrowers whenever there is a new issue to be put onto the market. This cautionary note has already been communicated to HKAB. In answer to an earlier question, I already said that we believe that, for new issues, we must leave it to market demand and supply; we cannot artificially limit demand by imposing an upper limit for application. On the other hand, as I also mentioned earlier on, a listing rule to restrict the issuer from accepting applications for more than 100% of the shares on offer is being considered. So, that would be some sort of limit.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 12 January 1994 1683
DR HUANG CHEN-YA (in Cantonese): Madam deputy, my question has already been asked by Mr CHIM Pui-chung, so I would like to raise another one. As the Administration has advised banks to lend only up to 90% of the amount necessary for new issue subscription, then has it monitored whether banks have abided by these guidelines?
SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES (in Cantonese): Madam deputy, the answer is yes.
MR JAMES TIEN: Madam deputy, on improving the recycling of application money in the interbank market in future, the Secretary has replied to the effect that the Hong Kong Monetary Authority has written to HKAB in December making some suggestions. And I think these suggestions are very sound. However, all these suggestions boil down to one thing, and that is to allow the banks to hold on to the application money for a fewer number of days, which is contrary to their profit-oriented sentiment. And the Secretary also said that these measures, if adopted, should improve the efficiency of the recycling process. May I ask the Secretary when he expects a reply from the HKAB, and if their reply indicates a reluctance to accept the suggestions, what else can the Hong Kong Monetary Authority do?
SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES: Madam deputy, we are waiting for a formal reply from HKAB. And, apart from waiting for a reply, the Monetary Authority is actually in discussion with officers of HKAB and there is no reason for us to assume a completely negative reply at this stage.
Localization in public utilities
6. DR SAMUEL WONG asked: Will the Government inform this Council:
(a) when the licence of the Hong Kong Telephone Co Limited Cable and Wireless Hong Kong Limited was renewed in 1981, whether conditions were imposed on the licensee that preference should be given to local candidates in the recruitment/appointment of candidates to fill all the vacancies within its establishment and that overseas candidates would only be appointed when no suitable local candidate was available or likely to become available in the foreseeable future; and
(b) whether similar conditions were imposed on other public utility companies such as the China Light and Power Company Limited and the Hong Kong Electric Company Limited subsequently when their licences were renewed?
1684 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 12 January 1994
SECRETARY FOR ECONOMIC SERVICES: Madam deputy, I believe Dr WONG is referring to general condition 18(4) of the 1981 licence granted to Cable and Wireless (Hong Kong) Limited, for external telecoms circuits and services. This condition provides that "when filling any grade within its establishment the Licensee will give preference to the recruitment and appointment of locally engaged staff PROVIDED THAT such staff are considered suitable and have the necessary qualifications and in particular the Licensee will employ an expatriate officer only if no suitable local candidate is available or is likely to become available in the reasonably near future".
There were good historical reasons for the inclusion of such a clause in the licence: at the time when it was issued — 1981 — the then Cable and Wireless (Hong Kong) Limited, was heavily dependent on its United Kingdom parent company for secondment of not only technical but also managerial staff. The Government then believed that the company should play its full part in developing a local skills base in telecommunications which was and still is a strategically important service sector of great significance to Hong Kong's development as a business and trading centre.
Since 1982, the number of expatriate staff employed by the company has declined from 40% of managerial level staff to under 10%. The original aim of the licence condition, namely to reduce Cable and Wireless's dependence on overseas secondees, has now been achieved. With the company's change in status in 1987 to become a member of the Hong Kong Telecom group it has, in any case, acquired a more local character.
As regards the second part of the question, the China Light and Power Company and Hong Kong Electric Company do not operate under any licence from the Government. They have voluntarily entered into Scheme of Control Agreements with the Government. In common with the vast majority of our utilities, the two companies are locally based and locally owned and the requirement for a provision similar to that in the Cable and Wireless licence does not arise. Consistent with our overall policy of not interfering in the way in which private companies run their businesses, the current Scheme of Control Agreements with the companies, which entered into force on 1 October 1993 and 1 January 1994 respectively, contain no conditions similar to the one in the 1981 licence for Cable and Wireless (Hong Kong) Limited.
DR SAMUEL WONG: Madam deputy, in the recent replacement of the said company's Number Two — I think it was the Deputy Chief Executive — has the general condition 18(4) of the 1981 licence been strictly adhered to? If not, why not?
SECRETARY FOR ECONOMIC SERVICES: Madam deputy, I do not think it would be appropriate for me to comment on individual appointments or replacements. But let us look at the facts. Within the company there are only
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 12 January 1994 1685
seven expatriate staff in a managerial team of 104. So the situation really has improved a lot and it would not really be appropriate for the Government to look at just one individual case because the situation actually changes all the time. Expatriates come and go and they are at times replaced by locals.
MR JIMMY McGREGOR: Madam deputy, will the Secretary confirm that the Government has no intention of introducing any new requirement for localization of staff employed by private sector companies, whether or not they enjoy some form of monopoly in the provision of public services, and that all such companies will be permitted to employ people as they wish and in accordance with the dictates of the market?
SECRETARY FOR ECONOMIC SERVICES: Madam deputy, in general terms, I so confirm.
Written answers to questions
LDC urban renewal role review
7. MR JAMES TO asked (in Chinese): Since a motion on "Redevelopment of Private Buildings" was passed by this Council in July 1992, the Government has repeatedly indicated that the review of the Land Development Corporation's role in the urban renewal process would be completed soon. Will the Government inform this Council:
(a) whether the review has been completed; if so, when the result will be published; if not, why not; and
(b) whether it will continue to review the process through which private developers carry out redevelopment; if so, what the time schedule will be; if not, why not?
SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS: Madam deputy,
(a) The review of the Land Development Corporation's role in the urban renewal process has been largely completed. However, its conclusions are now being re examined in the context of a wider overall review of urban renewal and redevelopment issues connected with the implementation of Metroplan. Results of the LDC review will therefore be presented with those of the wider review as soon as possible.
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(b) The overall review referred to under (a) covers the role of all the various implementation agents involved, including private developers. It is a highly complex subject with major implications in terms of economic and social impact, land, planning and housing policies and resources. It is difficult to set a firm date for the completion of the review at this stage therefore; but it will take another six months at least.
Working group on services for autistic persons
8. MR HUI YIN-FAT asked (in Chinese): Since the setting up of the Working Group on Services for Autistic Persons in October 1991, no reports have so far been published in relation to the work of the Working Group. In this regard, will the Government inform this Council of the following:
(a) whether the Working Group encountered any difficulties during its course of work over the past two years;
(b) when the Working Group will complete its work and submit a report; (c) how the report will be released to the public; and
(d) how the Government will give effect to the proposals in the report and what the time-table for implementation is?
SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE: Madam deputy, my answer seriatim is as follows.
As regards parts (a) and (b) of the question, the main difficulty was to identify issues for discussion and work out a realistic timeframe at the outset. It was originally estimated that the Working Group would only need to convene four meetings to finish deliberations and to come up with a report in mid-1992. As it turned out, the Working Group met on 10 occasions, from January 1992 to September 1993. The Working Group has already completed its deliberations and submitted a report last month for consideration.
As regards parts (c) and (d) of the question, the Rehabilitation Development Co ordinating Committee (RDCC) will be consulted on the report. Subject to RDCC's advice, copies of which may be made available, on request, to concerned non-governmental organizations, parents and rehabilitation personnel and appropriate priorities given to facilitate implementation of the recommendations accepted therein.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 12 January 1994 1687 Employment of disabled persons in the Civil Service
9. MR SZETO WAH asked (in Chinese): Regarding the employment of the disabled and physically handicapped persons in the Civil Service, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) of the current policy regarding the employment of such persons;
(b) of the total number of such persons being employed in the Civil Service with a detailed breakdown of the Departments in which they are employed and of the ranks they hold;
(c) of the overall percentage of such persons currently being employed in the Civil Service as compared to that in the private sector; and
(d) whether the employment rate of such persons is satisfactory and whether the present policy will be reviewed?
SECRETARY FOR THE CIVIL SERVICE: Madam deputy,
(a) It is the Government's policy to place disabled persons (including physically handicapped persons) in appropriate jobs wherever possible. This is consistent with the general policy to integrate disabled persons into the community through vocational rehabilitation and eventual gainful employment in the private as well as the public sectors.
Disabled persons applying for jobs in the Civil Service have to meet the entry requirements applicable to all other applicants. However, if they are found suitable for employment, they are given an appropriate degree of preference. In addition, a disabled person who is able to carry out only certain duties of a particular rank may be recommended for employment even though he may not, on account of his disability, be able to perform all the duties of that rank.
In some recruitment exercises, additional criteria may be imposed to shortlist qualified candidates for selection interviews. These criteria would not apply to disabled candidates so that all disabled candidates who possess the basic entry qualifications for the posts are given the chance to attend the interviews.
(b) There are 3 778 disabled persons employed in the Civil Service. The major departments employing disabled persons are Urban Services, Regional Services, Electrical and Mechanical Services, Hospital Services, Housing, the Royal Hong Kong Police Force, Agriculture and Fisheries, Correctional Services, Water Supplies,
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Social Welfare and Education. A detailed breakdown of disabled persons employed in each department is at Appendix I.
Over one-third of disabled officers are on Model Scale 1 Pay Scale (monthly salary from $6,635 to $7,620). Another 9.2% are in more senior positions drawing a maximum salary at Master Pay Scale Point 26 or above or equivalent (monthly salary $22,890 or above). Detailed breakdowns are in Appendix II.
(c) Disabled persons account for 2.07% of the entire Civil Service. As there are no available statistics on the overall percentage of disabled persons currently employed in the private sector, no comparison can be drawn.
(d) The number of disabled persons employed in the Civil Service has been increasing steadily, growing from 1 432 in 1983 to 3 778 in 1993. The existing policy therefore seems generally appropriate. The Administration will continue its efforts to encourage employment of disabled persons in the Civil Service.
Appendix I
No. of disabled
persons employed
Agriculture and Fisheries Department 187 Architectural Services Department 24 Audit Department 2 Census and Statistics Department 17 City and New Territories Administration 35 Civil Aid Services 4 Civil Aviation Department 7 Civil Engineering Department 36 Civil Service Training Centre 3 Correctional Services Department 169 Customs and Excise Department 9
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No. of disabled
persons employed
Department of Health 86 Drainage Services Department 92 Education Department 104 Electrical and Mechanical services Department 296 Environmental Protection Department 17 Fire Services Department 34 Government Flying Service 5 Government House 1 Government Land Transport Agency 2 Government Secretariat 32 Government Supplies Department 27 Highways Department 26 Hospital Services Department 282 Housing Department 263 Immigration Department 44 Industry Department 8 Information Services Department 5 Information Technology Services Department 12 Inland Revenue Department 68 Intellectual Property Department 5 Judiciary 17 Labour Department 24
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No. of disabled
persons employed
Land Registry 23 Lands Department 43 Legal Department 10 Legal Aid Department 7 Marine Department 46 Office of Members of the Legislative Council 1 Planning Department 9 Planning, Environment and Lands Branch 2 Police Complaints Committee 1 Post Office 93 Printing Department 10 Radio Television Hong Kong 7 Rating and Valuation Department 12 Recreation and Culture Branch 4 Regional Services Department 297 Royal Hong Kong Police Force 196 Royal Observatory 10 Social Welfare Department 109 Student Financial Assistance Agency 1 Technical Education and Industry Training Department 9 Television and Entertainment Licensing Authority 1 Territory Development Department 4
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 12 January 1994 1691
No. of disabled
persons employed
Trade Department 10 Transport Department 38 Treasury 13 University and Polytechnic Grants Committee 1 Urban Services Department 760 Water Supplies Department 118 Total: 3 778
Appendix II
Disabled Persons Serving in the Civil Service as at 1 April 1993
(by Salary Groups)
Salary Group Total
Directorate Pay Scale and
Directorate (Legal) Pay Scale 3
Max. Salary
Judicial between Pt. 14-70 1 Officers
Salary Max. Salary
Scale between Pt. 1-13 -
Max. Salary
between Pt. 45-49 23
Max. Salary
Master between Pt. 34-44 114 Pay Scale
Max. Salary
between Pt. 26-33 153
Max. Salary
between Pt. 1-25 1 808
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Salary Group Total
Max. Salary
between PPS 55-59 1
Max. Salary
between PPS 48-54 -
Police Max. Salary
Pay Scale between PPS 42-47 2
Max. Salary
between PPS 28-41 10
Max. Salary
between PPS 1-27 104
Max. Salary
between GDS(O) 1-4 -
Max. Salary
between GDS(O) 32-38 1
General Max. Salary
Disciplined between GDS(O) 21-31 18 Services Pay Scale
Max. Salary
between GDS(O) 12-20 21
Max. Salary
between GDS(O) 1-11 4
Rank and File 121
Model Scale I 1 368 Training Pay Scale 26
Total: 3 778
(851)
Note: Figure in bracket indicates colourblind or with defective colour perception
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For "Judicial Officers Salary Scale", the pay points assigned by Treasury for payroll purposes are adopted for the classification of salary group.
Triad societies
10. MRS PEGGY LAM asked (in Chinese): Will the Government inform this Council of: (a) the number of triad societies in Hong Kong and their active membership; and
(b) the number of persons prosecuted under triad related legislation in the past three years; the proportion of conviction and the average term of imprisonment imposed?
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY: Madam deputy,
(a) The Commissioner of Police estimates that there are currently 57 active triad societies in Hong Kong. As the nature of triad societies is secretive and their membership varies from time to time, it is not possible to estimate with any accuracy the total number of triad members in Hong Kong.
(b) The number of persons charged with offences under triad related legislation in 1991 was 328; in 1992 it was 430; and in the first six months of 1993, it was 201. The proportion of convictions was 42% in 1991; 39% in 1992; and 50% in 1993. For those given custodial sentences, the average term of imprisonment was six months in 1991; five months in 1992 and nine months in 1993.
Commissioner for Administrative Complaints
11. MISS CHRISTINE LOH asked: Will the Government inform this Council:
(a) of the criteria for selecting a replacement for the present Commissioner for Administrative Complaints; and
(b) since the Commissioner can only be removed from office by the Governor with the approval by resolution of this Council, whether the Government is prepared to agree that appointment to the post will be subject to this Council's resolution?
1694 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 12 January 1994
CHIEF SECRETARY: Madam deputy, in considering the candidate for appointment as the next Commissioner for Administrative Complaints, the Government had regard to the following factors: the person must be of high personal integrity and well respected in the community, he should know the operations of the Government well and yet be detached from the Administration, he should preferably be bilingual, and should be under the age of 65 at the time of appointment as each term of appointment is for five years.
The provision that the Commissioner can only be removed from office by the Governor with the approval by resolution of the Legislative Council is to ensure that the Commissioner is not removed during his contract without a good cause. Such consideration obviously does not apply in regard to appointment to the post.
Preliminary Working Committee for the SAR Preparatory Committee 12. DR PHILIP WONG asked (in Chinese): Will the Government inform this Council:
(a) whether any instruction has been issued to restrict police officers from having contacts with Preliminary Working Committee (PWC) members of the Special Administrative Region Preparatory Committee, if so, the rationale for this, and
(b) if PWC members seek assistance from the police when they encounter harassment, in what way will the police deal with their cases?
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY: Madam deputy,
(a) We have well-established official channels to discuss and resolve transitional issues, and we want to see these mechanisms working effectively. These channels have been set up under formal international agreements and understandings reached between present and future sovereign powers. PWC are a group of individuals appointed by the Chinese Government. If they want information, the Administration will deal with their requests in the same way as we respond to similar requests from any other groups in the community. Guidance to this effect has been given to all government departments, including the police.
(b) The police will treat PWC members like any other member of the public, should they seek assistance.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 12 January 1994 1695 Pirated compact discs
13. MR ALLEN LEE asked: In view of the rampant smuggling activities relating to pirated compact discs (CDs) in recent months, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) of the magnitude of the problem;
(b) of the number of raids and prosecution actions taken against CD piracy in 1993; (c) of the average penalties imposed on the offenders on conviction by courts; and
(d) whether consideration will be given to increasing the penalty provided under the relevant Ordinances as a further deterrent to offenders?
SECRETARY FOR TRADE AND INDUSTRY: Madam deputy,
(a) The smuggling of pirated compact discs into Hong Kong is a relatively recent phenomenon. Such smuggling activities have intensified since early 1993. Pirated CDs are smuggled into Hong Kong by vehicular traffic and by couriers, and are mostly sold by street vendors. As the sources of supply are outside Hong Kong, the Customs and Excise Department's efforts to combat the problem have focussed on interception at the border and detection of storage and sales outlets within the territory. These tasks have proved difficult because of the large volume of cross border traffic and the high mobility of hawkers.
The total number of pirated CDs seized and persons arrested for dealing with pirated CDs by the Customs and Excise Department in 1993 were 93 927 and 350 respectively, as compared with 10 117 and 32 in 1992. These statistics illustrate the magnitude of the problem.
(b) The Customs and Excise Department conducted 315 raids related to CD piracy in 1993, including five major territory-wide operations to attack the hawking of pirated CDs. These raids achieved good results.
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According to statistics provided by the International Federation of the Phonographic Industry, the sale of legitimate CDs rebounded by 90% in the third quarter of 1993 compared to a 40% drop in the second quarter. Prosecution actions in 60 of these cases have been concluded. The remaining cases are pending investigation or prosecution.
(c) In 1993 the average fine imposed by the courts on each copy of pirated CD was $65.72. In one case which involved 468 pirated CDs, the penalty was 56 hours of community service. In another case which involved 112 pirated CDs, the convicted person was put on probation for 12 months. No custodial sentence has been imposed. The penalties are on the low side when compared with the statutory maxima of $1,000 per pirated copy and one-year imprisonment stipulated in the Copyright Ordinance.
(d) The maximum penalties stipulated in the Copyright Ordinance will be reviewed in the context of the forthcoming comprehensive review of copyright law arising from the Law Reform Commission's recent recommendations.
Untreated sewage discharge
14. MR ALBERT CHAN asked (in Chinese): In view of the pollution caused by over 290 million cubic metres of untreated sewage being discharged into the harbour every year will the Government inform this Council:
(a) of the existing number of cases of unauthorized or wrong connection of foul sewers to the stormwater drains;
(b) of the number of prosecutions initiated against such offenders over the past two years; and
(c) what actions will be taken to eliminate unauthorized connection of the foul sewers?
SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS: Madam deputy,
(a) There are estimated to be about 8 000 unauthorized connections to the stormwater drainage system. Most of them are in the recently established Eastern and Western Buffer Water Control Zones (WCZs) and in the Victoria WCZ which will be established between 1994 and 1997.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 12 January 1994 1697
(b) Under section 9 of the Water Pollution Control Ordinance, except for licensed discharges, a person commits an offence if he discharges any matter into a communal sewer that is not vested in and maintained by the Government as a sewer for the carriage of foul water in a WCZ. In the past two years, 29 prosecutions have been initiated under the Ordinance.
(c) Various measures are in hand to eliminate unauthorized connections. The focus of these measures is the territory-wide programme of Sewerage Masterplans. The main measures are as follows:
(i) As regards planning, priority has been given in the Sewerage Masterplan programme to those areas where industrial discharges to the stormwater drains lead directly into the harbour. Under the Masterplans the extent, capacity and physical state of the existing sewerage system, including the number of unauthorized connections, are investigated before measures to meet the existing and future demand for new sewerage are proposed. While it is impossible at present to rectify all unauthorized connections in these areas immediately, reconnections are made where physically possible. The Masterplans also identify "first aid measures" that can provide short-term improvement to pollution blackspots.
(ii) As regards construction, detailed design or physical work on sewerage improvements has started in East Kowloon, Hong Kong Island South, North West Kowloon, Tsuen Wan/Kwai Tsing, Chai Wan/Shau Kei Wan, Yuen Long/Kam Tin, Tolo Harbour, Port Shelter and Tuen Mun. Work in the remaining areas will be implemented according to the recommendations of the Sewerage Masterplans in phases.
(iii) As regards control, apart from enforcement under the Water Pollution Control Ordinance, some district boards have set up Industrial Building Management Co-ordinating Committees (IBMCCs) which identify industrial buildings causing severe pollution problems and take action where they can. As far as unauthorized connections are concerned, the IBMCCs advise factory owners on the extent of the pollution caused by their discharges and how these may be corrected. Where necessary, the Buildings Department carries out the reconnection work and recovers the costs from the factory owners. Some 700 connections have been dealt with in this way since 1986.
1698 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 12 January 1994 Visa for Taiwanese visitors
15. MR CHEUNG MAN-KWONG asked (in Chinese): Given the growing economic and cultural contacts between Hong Kong and Taiwan, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) whether any applications for entry into Hong Kong by Taiwanese public servants had been turned down in the past five years; if so, please list out respectively the number of rejected applicants, their reasons for applying to visit Hong Kong, and the grounds on which their applications were turned down; and
(b) whether the Hong Kong Government will conduct any review and take measures to relax the exit and entry requirements on Taiwanese residents, so as to promote exchanges between the two places?
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY: Madam deputy,
(a) We have maintained separate immigration statistics on Taiwanese public servants only since July 1990. Since then, seven applications have been refused, all in 1990; there were none in 1991, 1992 nor 1993.
It is not our policy to provide details of individual cases. However, among the factors which are taken into account when considering visa applications are: (a) whether the applicant is a bona fide visitor; (b) whether there is an adverse record against the applicant (for example, whether he or she is the subject of a deportation order); (c) whether there is doubt about the authenticity of the documents produced; and (d) whether the applicant has failed to submit the required information.
(b) At present, Taiwanese visitors can enter Hong Kong on Multiple Visit Permits valid for two years. The processing time for first applicants normally takes no more than seven working days, while applications for renewal can be completed normally within two working days. The scheme has been well received by Taiwanese visitors and is more liberal than that offered to Hong Kong residents by the Taiwan authorities. We shall continue to keep these policies and procedures under review.
Appointment/promotion vetting procedures
16. MR MARTIN BARROW asked: Will the Government inform this Council as to the extent of its vetting procedures for new appointments to the Civil
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 12 January 1994 1699
Service, promotion within the service and appointments of members of the public to the statutory bodies in terms of the following:
(a) the number of working days for the process to be completed;
(b) whether the vetting procedures are subject to performance pledges, if not, the reason;
(c) the number of people vetted in 1992-93 in each category;
(d) the number of people rejected after vetting under each category; and (e) the number of staff engaged full-time on vetting matters?
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY: Madam deputy,
(a) The procedures differ for the various categories. For civil servants on first appointment, checks are made against police and ICAC records. For civil servants who require regular access to classified information, and for the appointment of members of the public to certain statutory bodies, additional police record checks are carried out. For civil servants appointed or promoted into a limited number of senior posts requiring a high degree of trust, interviews of the officers concerned, their referees and their supervising officers are carried out, in addition to the record checks described above. It is not possible to indicate the number of working days for the process to be completed as procedures and circumstances differ. However, most checks are completed within four to six weeks.
(b) The checking procedures are not subject to performance pledges, as it is not possible to put a time limit on them. We need to ensure that checks are properly and accurately carried out.
(c) Statistics are not broken down by category, but a total of some 20 000 checks were carried out in 1993.
(d) Statistics are not held on the number of persons rejected in the various categories.
(e) There are 10 staff in the police and six in ICAC employed full time in the checking process. But other staff in various departments carry out some of this work as part of their normal duties.
1700 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 12 January 1994 Nursing homes for elderly patients
17. DR LEONG CHE-HUNG asked: In view of the Government's plan to develop a network of nursing homes for elderly patients and to have seven such nursing homes in operation by 1997, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) of the criteria for admission to these homes, in comparison with those for care and attention homes and infirmaries;
(b) of the estimated annual recurrent cost for supporting a resident in these homes, in comparison with those of care and attention homes and infirmaries;
(c) of the manpower requirements for the planned homes, and the means to ensure sufficient staff for their operation on time amidst the prevailing shortage of nurses and forthcoming competition from private residential care homes for staff; and
(d) which department will be responsible for running these nursing homes and how will effective co-operation be ensured, including the transferring of elderly persons and reducing their waiting time for appropriate services, among the various types of public and private residential care homes under different authorities?
SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE: Madam deputy, the answer to the four-part question is as follows. Seriatim,
(a) Nursing homes are non-hospital based residential nursing care facilities. They are designed specifically to cater for elderly persons who, because of their health condition, cannot be adequately cared for at care-and-attention homes but who, on the other hand, do not require the intensive medical and nursing care provided at infirmaries.
(b) Subject to fine-tuning, the annual recurrent cost for supporting a resident in the nursing homes is estimated to be in the order of $107,000 per annum. This compares with $62,086 at a care and attention home and $246,760 at an infirmary.
(c) Each nursing home will be staffed by a multi-disciplinary team comprising doctors, nurses, supplementary medical professionals, personal care workers, social workers and other ancillary staff. Actual provision and staff complement will be determined in the light of the functional needs and operational requirements of the individual home.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 12 January 1994 1701
Where appropriate, staff will be recruited and trained in advance of the coming into operation of the nursing homes, to ensure sufficient staffing and smooth operation.
(d) It is envisaged that the majority of nursing homes will be run by non governmental and charitable organizations. The recurrent operating costs will be funded by Government through the Department of Health. The Director of Health will liaise closely with operators to co-ordinate the provision of services and to facilitate effective co-operation and interface with other service providers in both the public and the private sectors.
Legionnaire's Disease
18. DR LAM KUI-CHUN asked: Legionnaire's Disease is associated with air conditioners, piping and construction sites which are common all over Hong Kong. According to a study conducted recently by the University of Hong Kong, 80% of local central air-conditioners and their piping have been found to contain legionella. Will the Government inform this Council:
(a) how prevalent is Legionnaire's Disease in Hong Kong; and
(b) what measures are in place to protect workers working in and residents living near demolition and construction sites from contracting this disease?
SECRETARY FOR WORKS: Madam deputy,
(a) Legionnaires' Disease is not a notifiable disease in Hong Kong. However, voluntary reportings are received from medical practitioners. Up to date three cases of Legionnaires' Disease have been confirmed and all have recovered.
With the enactment of the Bill to amend the Quarantine and Prevention of Disease Ordinance, Legionnaires' Disease will become statutorily notifiable around late January/early February 1994. This will enable the Department of Health to better monitor the occurrence of this disease in Hong Kong.
The widespread existence of Legionella bacteria in local air conditioning systems is not unusual. The bacteria causing Legionnaires' Disease, like other kinds of bacteria, are widespread in natural water sources, and have been found in rivers, lakes, streams, mud and soils as well as man-made systems.
1702 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 12 January 1994
Infection from Legionnaires' Disease is caused by inhalation of airborne droplets or particles in fine mist containing the bacteria Legionella, normally present in building fresh water systems. Without the fine mist to transport the bacteria, infection is unlikely.
(b) On demolition sites, normally all water services of the air conditioning system have been disconnected and drained before demolition work commence, hence the fine mist to transport the bacteria does not exist.
On construction sites, it is unlikely that new air conditioning installations would at that stage be filled with water. Even if they are filled with water, the building water systems are new and clean, and the proliferation of Legionella is most unlikely. Also, local fresh water supply is well chlorinated for bacteria control and it is difficult for Legionella to survive.
Hence, we believe that Legionella are not present in demolition or construction sites in large numbers and these sites do not pose the hazard of Legionnaire's Disease to workers working in or residents dwelling near them. In fact, none of the three cases reported to the Department of Health were known to have contracted the infection from demolition or construction sites.
It should be noted that for all air conditioning systems designed by the Architectural Services Department since January 1990, design precautions have been taken to eliminate possible sources of this disease. Fresh water, which is more prone to the risk of Legionnaires Disease than salt water, is not used in new air-conditioning systems in government projects. The Administration issued a leaflet entitled "Understanding Legionnaires Disease and its Prevention" to the public in late 1993. This was also sent by the Hong Kong Institution of Engineers to its members, amongst whom are those in building service related disciplines associated with the air-conditioning of local buildings.
Old age pension scheme
19. MR ERIC LI asked (in Chinese): The Government unexpectedly put forward a new proposal to introduce a compulsory old age pension scheme and hinted that it would conduct another consultation exercise. Will the Government inform this Council:
(a) of the details, including whether there is a clear-cut timetable, of the consultation exercise;
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 12 January 1994 1703 (b) when the Executive Council can make a final decision on this scheme;
(c) when drafting of the relevant legislation will begin and when it will be introduced to the Legislative Council;
(d) of the channels through which the Chinese Government will be consulted and how relevant discussions will be followed up;
(e) how the Government will consider whether to adopt the views of the Chinese Government and the people of Hong Kong; and
(f) whether funds can be made available before 30 June 1997 to implement this scheme?
SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER: Madam deputy, to tackle the growing problem of financial security for old age, the Government is prepared to implement a mandatory, contributory Old Age Pension Scheme subject to:
(a) the outcome of a feasibility study advising on the financial and technical aspects of such a scheme;
(b) endorsement by the community of proposals resulting from the feasibility study; and
(c) consultation with the Chinese Government.
(a) Details of the consultation exercise
Members of the public are now invited to send their views on both the principle of the scheme as well as on various aspects of its operation to the Education and Manpower Branch. Meanwhile, we shall proceed with the consultancy study expeditiously. We intend to publish a consultation document by the summer, and on the basis of public views and the outcome of consultation with China, make a decision before the end of this year.
(b) Submission to the Executive Council
The Government intends to make a decision on this scheme before the end of 1994. (c) Drafting of relevant legislation
Should a decision be made to proceed with the implementation of the Old Age Pension Scheme, then drafting of the necessary legislation should commence soon afterwards. It is too early to say with certainty how long such
1704 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 12 January 1994
legislative drafting would take, or when the resultant legislation would be introduced to the Legislative Council.
(d) Consultation with the Chinese Government
The Government will consult the Chinese side through the Joint Liaison Group. (e) Adopting the views of the Chinese Government and the people of Hong Kong
The proposed old age pension scheme is an important issue to Hong Kong residents. The Government aims to come up with a proposal which is acceptable to the community for further discussion with the Chinese Government.
(f) Availability of funds
Should the scheme be endorsed, and subject to approval from the Finance Committee of the Legislative Council, the Government intends to make available funds for the purpose as soon as the Scheme is implemented.
Aberdeen Sports Ground improvement
20. MR TIMOTHY HA asked (in Chinese): The athletic tracks at the Hong Kong Stadium are closed during the redevelopment of the Stadium. A number of schools which previously held their sports days at the Stadium have therefore to switch the venue of their athletic meets to the Aberdeen Sports Ground. Despite the Government's promise to improve the facilities of the Aberdeen Sports Grounds, the venue is still far from adequate at present, for example, the spectators' stands are without covers; there are insufficient toilets and changing rooms; the athletic tracks go short of lanes; the field is uneven; and there are no properly marked parking spaces in the parking area for vehicles and so on. Will the Government inform this Council:
(a) whether the Government has any plan to upgrade the facilities of the Aberdeen Sports Ground; if so, when the plan will be implemented; and
(b) what facilities are to be improved under that plan?
SECRETARY FOR RECREATION AND CULTURE: Madam deputy, to compensate for the loss of the athletic track at the Hong Kong Stadium and to cater for the resultant increased usage of the Aberdeen Sports Ground, the following improvements have been made to the latter venue in October 1992:
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 12 January 1994 1705
(a) the seating capacity of the sports ground has been increased from 800 to 9 300 with the erection of two additional spectator stands; and
(b) more toilet and changing facilities were also provided underneath the new spectator stands. There are now 13 toilets, 35 urinals and 20 showers for male, 26 toilets and 17 showers for female and two toilet-cum-shower rooms for the disabled.
Further improvements will be made to the sports ground during the forthcoming maintenance closure period from March to August 1994. These include:
(a) a permanent cover to be constructed for the spectator stand on the western side of the sports ground for about 4 700 seats; and
(b) re-surfacing the running track and re-adjusting the level of the grass in-field.
However, owing to site constraints, it is not possible to increase the present six lane running track to an eight-lane one. For the same reason, no parking space can be provided for the public. The existing parking facilities are intended for service use only.
A new sports ground, primarily intended for school athletic meets, is being planned at Siu Sai Wan. This new venue will include a 400-metre eight-lane all weather synthetic track and a fully covered spectator stand of 12 000 seats. There will be parking space for both coaches and public use. Construction would start in September 1994 and it is estimated to be completed in July 1996.
Motions
FACTORIES AND INDUSTRIAL UNDERTAKINGS ORDINANCE THE SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER moved the following motion:
"That the Factories and Industrial Undertakings (Amendment) Regulation 1994, made by the Commissioner for Labour on 13 December 1993, be approved."
He said: Madam deputy, I move the motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.
1706 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 12 January 1994
The purpose of the resolution is to increase the levels of maximum fines in the penalty provisions of the Factories and Industrial Undertakings Regulation to bring them in line with those in the Factories and Industrial Undertakings (Amendment) Ordinance 1993 passed by this Council on 24 November 1993.
Members will recall that we have increased the levels of maximum fines under the Factories and Industrial Undertakings (Amendment) Ordinance according to the seriousness of the offences. "Minor offences" refer to technical breaches of statutory procedural requirements. "Serious offences" involve relatively serious breaches of safety regulations, but normally not causing serious body harm. "Very serious offences" are those which may cause imminent risk of fatality or very serious body injury.
The resolution put before this Council today seeks to adjust the levels of maximum fines to $10,000, $50,000 and $200,000, with or without imprisonment, for minor, serious and very serious offences respectively.
Madam deputy, I beg to move.
Question on the motion proposed.
MR LAU CHIN-SHEK (in Cantonese): Madam deputy, I would like to speak on the motion and call on the Administration to increase the levels of maximum fines in the penalty provisions of the 23 Regulations under the Factories and Industrial Undertakings Ordinance. This will increase the deterrent effect on people neglecting industrial safety, so it is worth supporting. Originally, I do not intend to speak on the motion. However, the spate of industrial accidents that occurred in the past two days prompt me to seize this opportunity to press the Administration to take more effective measures to improve the safety of workers engaging in various trades.
The arson case at the Shek Kip Mei Branch of the Hong Kong Bank has stunned the public. Four people have been killed, and eight people are in critical condition. We have also learnt that one victim has changed from poor to fair condition. These 13 people, all bank employees, were either injured or killed during their course of work. Although this tragedy was caused by man, the lack of fire fighting equipment and effective fire escapes is the major reason for such heavy casualties. Thus it can be seen that we should not just focus our efforts on the safety in workplaces like factories, construction sites and restaurants, the working environment of other trades is at stake too. Basically, all workplaces are potentially hazardous and the situation is worrying.
For years, the labour sector has been repeatedly urging the Administration to extend the scope of the Factories and Industrial Undertakings Ordinance to cover all trades and industries in the territory. Regrettably, our request has been turned down by the Administration on grounds of insufficient
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 12 January 1994 1707
resources and manpower. I sincerely hope that the Administration would not drag its feet this time and widen the scope of the Ordinance as soon as possible by drawing up safety regulations for all trades including white-collar professions, with a view to protecting the safety of all workers in Hong Kong.
Apart from the Hong Kong Bank incident, four construction workers also lost their lives in industrial accidents recently. One worker was killed after being hit on the head by a falling object. Another worker died when he stepped into a lift shaft inadvertently. These two construction site accidents are the results of inadequate safety in the working environment. Although there are provisions in the Factories and Industrial Undertakings Ordinance which monitor the safety of construction sites, due to insufficient inspection staff on the part of the Labour Department, the number of prosecutions is relatively low. Even if there is legislative control over the safety of work sites, the legislation has not achieved its desired results. For example, there were nearly 80 000 occupational incidents in 1992, yet the number of prosecution brought against the offenders for breach of the safety regulations was less than 3 000. The figure is surprisingly low. Hence, while pressing the Administration for an increase in the level of fines, I also urge the authority concerned to step up its enforcement efforts by deploying more staff to inspect the factories and construction sites. If it is found out that there is a breach of the safety regulations, prosecution action should be taken in real earnest. Besides, the Administration should announce from time to time the list of companies with unsatisfactory safety records in order to alert the workers and members of the public.
Madam deputy, life is precious, I hope that the Administration would implement the above proposals as soon as possible.
PRESIDENT'S DEPUTY: Secretary for Education and Manpower, do you wish to reply?
SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER (in Cantonese): Madam deputy, the Administration agrees to the Honourable LAU Chin-shek's view that we must look after the safety of workers and ensure further that they be given the safest protective measures at their places of work.
As regards safety at construction sites, the Labour Department has this year increased its staff on the Factory Inspectorate, focusing specifically on construction site safety in its brief. At the same time, we expect to introduce a series of amendment bills into this Council in the next few months, with a view to improving further industrial safety.
I can confirm that we would consider Mr LAU's proposal that the ambit of the Factories and Industrial Undertakings Ordinance be expanded to cover non-factory undertakings. However, I must point out that, generally, the
1708 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 12 January 1994
current accident rate in factories, construction sites in particular, is far higher than the other non-factory undertakings. Therefore, in view of priorities and resource allocation, factories and construction sites will remain key areas of enforcement in the foreseeable future. Nevertheless, we are willing to consider Mr LAU's proposal.
Question on the motion put and agreed to.
FACTORIES AND INDUSTRIAL UNDERTAKINGS ORDINANCE THE SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER moved the following motion:
"That the Factories and Industrial Undertakings (Confined Spaces) (Amendment) Regulation 1994, made by the Commissioner for Labour on 13 December 1993, be approved."
He said: Madam deputy, I move the motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.
My remarks on the previous motion, explaining the resolution on the Factories and Industrial Undertakings (Amendment) Regulation, apply equally to this motion.
Madam deputy, I beg to move.
Question on the motion proposed, put and agreed to.
FACTORIES AND INDUSTRIAL UNDERTAKINGS ORDINANCE THE SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER moved the following motion:
"That the Factories and Industrial Undertakings (Blasting by Abrasives) Special (Amendment) Regulation 1994, made by the Commissioner for Labour on 13 December 1993, be approved."
He said: Madam deputy, I move the motion standing in my name on the Order Paper. My remarks on the previous motion apply equally to this motion.
Madam deputy, I beg to move.
Question on the motion proposed, put and agreed to.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 12 January 1994 1709 FACTORIES AND INDUSTRIAL UNDERTAKINGS ORDINANCE THE SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER moved the following motion:
"That the Factories and Industrial Undertakings (Woodworking Machinery) (Amendment) Regulation 1994, made by the Commissioner for Labour on 13 December 1993, be approved."
He said: Madam deputy, I move the motion standing in my name on the Order Paper. My remarks on the previous motion apply equally to this motion.
Madam deputy, I beg to move.
Question on the motion proposed, put and agreed to.
FACTORIES AND INDUSTRIAL UNDERTAKINGS ORDINANCE THE SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER moved the following motion:
"That the Factories and Industrial Undertakings (Electrolytic Chromium Process) (Amendment) Regulation 1994, made by the Commissioner for Labour on 13 December 1993, be approved."
He said: Madam deputy, I move the motion standing in my name on the Order Paper. My remarks on the previous motion apply equally to this motion.
Madam deputy, I beg to move.
Question on the motion proposed, put and agreed to.
FACTORIES AND INDUSTRIAL UNDERTAKINGS ORDINANCE THE SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER moved the following motion:
"That the Construction Sites (Safety) (Amendment) Regulation 1994, made by the Commissioner for Labour on 13 December 1993, be approved."
1710 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 12 January 1994 He said: Madam deputy, I move the motion standing in my name on the Order Paper. My remarks on the previous motion apply equally to this motion.
Madam deputy, I beg to move.
Question on the motion proposed, put and agreed to.
FACTORIES AND INDUSTRIAL UNDERTAKINGS ORDINANCE THE SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER moved the following motion:
"That the Factories and Industrial Undertakings (Lifting Appliances and Lifting Gear) (Amendment) Regulation 1994, made by the Commissioner for Labour on 13 December 1993, be approved."
He said: Madam deputy, I move the motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.
My remarks on the previous motion apply equally to this motion. Besides, this Regulation also imposes an offence on those competent persons who issue a false certificate to the owner of the lifting appliance or lifting gear or who fail to issue a certificate within a reasonable time.
Madam deputy, I beg to move.
Question on the motion proposed, put and agreed to.
FACTORIES AND INDUSTRIAL UNDERTAKINGS ORDINANCE THE SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER moved the following motion:
"That the Factories and Industrial Undertakings (Cargo and Container Handling) (Amendment) Regulation 1994, made by the Commissioner for Labour on 13 December 1993, be approved."
He said: Madam deputy, I move the motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 12 January 1994 1711
My remarks on the motion, explaining the resolution on the Factories and Industrial Undertakings (Amendment) Regulation, apply equally to this motion.
Madam deputy, I beg to move.
Question on the motion proposed, put and agreed to.
FACTORIES AND INDUSTRIAL UNDERTAKINGS ORDINANCE THE SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER moved the following motion:
"That the Factories and Industrial Undertakings (Abrasive Wheels) (Amendment) Regulation 1994, made by the Commissioner for Labour on 13 December 1993, be approved."
He said: Madam deputy, I move the motion standing in my name on the Order Paper. My remarks on the previous motion apply equally to this motion.
Madam deputy, I beg to move.
Question on the motion proposed, put and agreed to.
FACTORIES AND INDUSTRIAL UNDERTAKINGS ORDINANCE THE SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER moved the following motion:
"That the Factories and Industrial Undertakings (Work in Compressed Air) (Amendment) Regulation 1994, made by the Commissioner for Labour on 13 December 1993, be approved."
He said: Madam deputy, I move the motion standing in my name on the Order Paper. My remarks on the previous motion apply equally to this motion.
Madam deputy, I beg to move.
Question on the motion proposed, put and agreed to.
1712 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 12 January 1994 FACTORIES AND INDUSTRIAL UNDERTAKINGS ORDINANCE THE SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER moved the following motion:
"That the Factories and Industrial Undertakings (Spraying of Flammable Liquids) (Amendment) Regulation 1994, made by the Commissioner for Labour on 13 December 1993, be approved."
He said: Madam deputy, I move the motion standing in my name on the Order Paper. My remarks on the previous motion apply equally to this motion.
Madam deputy, I beg to move.
Question on the motion proposed, put and agreed to.
FACTORIES AND INDUSTRIAL UNDERTAKINGS ORDINANCE THE SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER moved the following motion:
"That the Factories and Industrial Undertakings (Goods Lifts) (Amendment) Regulation 1994, made by the Commissioner for Labour on 13 December 1993, be approved."
He said: Madam deputy, I move the motion standing in my name on the Order Paper. My remarks on the previous motion apply equally to this motion.
Madam deputy, I beg to move.
Question on the motion proposed, put and agreed to.
FACTORIES AND INDUSTRIAL UNDERTAKINGS ORDINANCE THE SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER moved the following motion:
"That the Factories and Industrial Undertakings (Dry Batteries) (Amendment) Regulation 1994, made by the Commissioner for Labour on 13 December 1993, be approved."
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 12 January 1994 1713 He said: Madam deputy, I move the motion standing in my name on the Order Paper. My remarks on the previous motion apply equally to this motion.
Madam deputy, I beg to move.
Question on the motion proposed, put and agreed to.
FACTORIES AND INDUSTRIAL UNDERTAKINGS ORDINANCE THE SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER moved the following motion:
"That the Factories and Industrial Undertakings (Guarding and Operation of Machinery) (Amendment) Regulation 1994, made by the Commissioner for Labour on 13 December 1993, be approved."
He said: Madam deputy, I move the motion standing in my name on the Order Paper. My remarks on the previous motion apply equally to this motion.
Madam deputy, I beg to move.
Question on the motion proposed, put and agreed to.
FACTORIES AND INDUSTRIAL UNDERTAKINGS ORDINANCE THE SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER moved the following motion:
"That the Factories and Industrial Undertakings (Cartridge-Operated Fixing Tools) (Amendment) Regulation 1994, made by the Commissioner for Labour on 13 December 1993, be approved."
He said: Madam deputy, I move the motion standing in my name on the Order Paper. My remarks on the previous motion apply equally to this motion.
Madam deputy, I beg to move.
Question on the motion proposed, put and agreed to.
1714 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 12 January 1994 FACTORIES AND INDUSTRIAL UNDERTAKINGS ORDINANCE THE SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER moved the following motion:
"That the Factories and Industrial Undertakings (Protection of Eyes) (Amendment) Regulation 1994, made by the Commissioner for Labour on 13 December 1993, be approved."
He said: Madam deputy, I move the motion standing in my name on the Order Paper. My remarks on the previous motion apply equally to this motion.
Madam deputy, I beg to move.
Question on the motion proposed, put and agreed to.
FACTORIES AND INDUSTRIAL UNDERTAKINGS ORDINANCE THE SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER moved the following motion:
"That the Factories and Industrial Undertakings (Noise at Work) (Amendment) Regulation 1994, made by the Commissioner for Labour on 13 December 1993, be approved."
He said: Madam deputy, I move the motion standing in my name on the Order Paper. My remarks on the previous motion apply equally to this motion.
Madam deputy, I beg to move.
Question on the motion proposed, put and agreed to.
FACTORIES AND INDUSTRIAL UNDERTAKINGS ORDINANCE THE SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER moved the following motion:
"That the Factories and Industrial Undertakings (Fire Precautions in Notifiable Workplaces) (Amendment) Regulation 1994, made by the Commissioner for Labour on 13 December 1993, be approved."
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 12 January 1994 1715 He said: Madam deputy, I move the motion standing in my name on the Order Paper. My remarks on the previous motion apply equally to this motion.
Madam deputy, I beg to move.
Question on the motion proposed, put and agreed to.
FACTORIES AND INDUSTRIAL UNDERTAKINGS ORDINANCE THE SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER moved the following motion:
"That the Factories and Industrial Undertakings (Electricity) (Amendment) Regulation 1994, made by the Commissioner for Labour on 13 December 1993, be approved."
He said: Madam deputy, I move the motion standing in my name on the Order Paper. My remarks on the previous motion apply equally to this motion.
Madam deputy, I beg to move.
Question on the motion proposed, put and agreed to.
FACTORIES AND INDUSTRIAL UNDERTAKINGS ORDINANCE THE SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER moved the following motion:
"That the Factories and Industrial Undertakings (Asbestos) Special (Amendment) Regulation 1994, made by the Commissioner for Labour on 13 December 1993, be approved."
He said: Madam deputy, I move the motion standing in my name on the Order Paper. My remarks on the previous motion apply equally to this motion.
Madam deputy, I beg to move.
Question on the motion proposed, put and agreed to.
1716 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 12 January 1994 FACTORIES AND INDUSTRIAL UNDERTAKINGS ORDINANCE THE SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER moved the following motion:
"That the Factories and Industrial Undertakings (Safety Officers and Safety Supervisors) (Amendment) Regulation 1994, made by the Commissioner for Labour on 13 December 1993, be approved."
He said: Madam deputy, I move the motion standing in my name on the Order Paper. My remarks on the previous motion apply equally to this motion.
Madam deputy, I beg to move.
Question on the motion proposed, put and agreed to.
FACTORIES AND INDUSTRIAL UNDERTAKINGS ORDINANCE THE SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER moved the following motion:
"That the Factories and Industrial Undertakings (Carcinogenic Substances) (Amendment) Regulation 1994, made by the Commissioner for Labour on 13 December 1993, be approved."
He said: Madam deputy, I move the motion standing in my name on the Order Paper. My remarks on the previous motion apply equally to this motion.
Madam deputy, I beg to move.
Question on the motion proposed, put and agreed to.
FACTORIES AND INDUSTRIAL UNDERTAKINGS ORDINANCE THE SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER moved the following motion:
"That the Factories and Industrial Undertakings (Dangerous Substances) (Amendment) Regulation 1994, made by the Commissioner for Labour on 13 December 1993, be approved."
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 12 January 1994 1717 He said: Madam deputy, I move the last motion standing in my name on the Order Paper. My remarks on the previous motion apply equally to this motion.
Madam deputy, I beg to move.
Question on the motion proposed, put and agreed to.
TRAFFIC ACCIDENT VICTIMS (ASSISTANCE FUND) ORDINANCE THE SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE moved the following motion:
"That, with effect from 15 January 1994, the Schedule to the Traffic Accident Victims (Assistance Fund) Ordinance be amended as follows -
(a) in Part I, by repealing the column headed "Annual Levy" and substituting -
"Annual Levy in respect of a levy paid in 1994
Annual Levy in respect of a levy paid after 1994
$78 $126
$78 $126
$78 $126
$78 $126
$78 $126";
(b) in Part II, by repealing the column headed "Annual Levy" and substituting -
"Annual Levy in respect of a levy paid in 1994
Annual Levy in respect of a levy paid after 1994
$26 $42
$26 $42
$26 $42
$26 $42"."
She said: Madam deputy, I rise to move the motion standing in my name in the Order Paper. Its purpose is to seek the Council's approval for increasing the levies on vehicle and driving licences in order to allow disbursements to be
1718 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 12 January 1994
made to traffic accident victims who need assistance under the Traffic Accident Victims Assistance Fund Ordinance.
The Traffic Accident Victims Assistance (TAVA) Scheme, was set up under the Ordinance and has been in operation for some 15 years. It provides speedy financial assistance to traffic accident victims regardless of financial means of the applicant or fault in causing the accident. The Ordinance provides for the establishment of the TAVA Fund to finance the Scheme.
The four sources of finance comprise levies on vehicle licences and driving licences, refunds from those applicants who received compensation from other parties in respect of the accident; contribution from general revenue and proceeds derived from investments of the Fund.
When the TAVA Scheme was set up in 1979, it was considered that as the presence of vehicles gave rise to traffic accidents in the first place, vehicle owners and their drivers should bear the brunt of the cost of the Scheme through levies on vehicle and driving licences. However, it was accepted that pedestrians were responsible in some cases and, given the welfare elements of the Scheme, that is to say, the provision of emergency relief, a contribution from general revenue reflecting broadly the percentage of traffic accidents caused by pedestrians' negligence was also considered appropriate. Thus on the basis that pedestrians' negligence had then caused about one-third of all traffic accidents, the contribution was then set at one-third of the cost of the Scheme. Since then, due to the public education on road safety and in particular to the excellent work of the Road Safety Council, the percentage of traffic accidents caused by pedestrians' negligence had shown a sharp decrease. The latest statistics show that only one-fifth of all traffic accidents are now caused by pedestrians. Accordingly, in October 1992 the contribution from general revenue was revised downwards to one-fifth of the cost of the Scheme.
Honourable Members will appreciate that, since the last revision of the levies three years ago, the rates of payments under the TAVA Scheme had been increased by some 35%. This is because the rates are increased in line with inflation. Furthermore, there has been a consistent and substantial increase in payments, for example, the projected payments in 1993-94 represent some 65% increase over the payments in 1991-92. In order to meet our commitments under the law, I submitted a notice to move a motion in March last year to increase the levies. However, in deference to Members' request I withdrew the motion to allow a little time to consider how we could increase the refund rate and decrease the administrative cost. I am happy to report that the Director of Social Welfare who is the administrator of the Fund will be able to achieve an annual staff cost savings of about $1 million. We have also examined ways and means to improve the refund rate. it has been suggested that the victim's right to claim damages should be subrogated to the Government. However, whether the victim of a traffic accident pursues his claim through the courts of law is, and must be, entirely a matter for the individual. Furthermore subrogation is not considered feasible because of the high administrative costs involved and the
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 12 January 1994 1719
practical difficulties in obtaining potential candidates' or claimant's co-operation. Instead we are vigorously encouraging the TAVA beneficiaries to pursue their claims through the courts and have advised them of the services provided by the Legal Aid Department, the Motor Insurance Bureau and the Law Society.
Madam deputy, the TAVA Scheme is a good scheme; it aims to provide immediate assistance to victims be they pedestrians or motorists. The revision of levies is to ensure that the Fund is solvent to meet the purposes for which the Fund was set up. Whilst we congratulate the increasingly better behaviour of pedestrians, we are sorry to say that there are still victims of traffic accidents. If this were an ideal world with no traffic accidents, there would be no need to have the TAVA Scheme. On the other hand, if there were no money in the Fund, there would be de facto no Scheme at all. The fact is that traffic accidents do happen and we do need to help the victims. Honourable Members, it is my public duty to seek funds under the law to enable the administrator to make speedy disbursements to claimants under the Scheme. I therefore propose that the annual levy on vehicle licences should be increased by $30 in the first year from $48 to $78 with effect from 15 January 1994 and then from $78 to $126 with effect from 1 January 1995.
Similarly, I also propose that the annual levy on driving licences should be raised by $10 in the first year from $16 to $26 and then from $26 to $42 from the same effective dates respectively.
The law allows advance renewal of driving and vehicle licences four months before their expiry date. To minimize operational difficulties, the revised rates will not apply to advance licence renewals made before the respective effective dates.
Madam deputy, I beg to move.
Question on the motion proposed.
PRESIDENT'S DEPUTY: Mrs Miriam LAU has given notice to move an amendment to the motion. Her amendment has been printed in the Order Paper and circulated to Members. I propose to call on her to speak and to move her amendment now so that Members may debate the motion and the amendment together.
MRS MIRIAM LAU moved the following amendment to the Secretary for Health and Welfare's motion:
"To delete "$78" and "$126" wherever they appear in paragraph (a) and substitute by "$66" and "$87" respectively; and to delete "$26" and "$42"
1720 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 12 January 1994 wherever they appear in paragraph (b) and substitute by "$22" and "$29" respectively."
MRS MIRIAM LAU (in Cantonese): Madam deputy, I move that the Secretary for Health and Welfare's motion be amended as set out in the Order Paper.
Having examined in detail the arguments put forth by the Administration in tabling the original motion, the subcommittee appointed by the House Committee and of which I am the chairperson came to a conclusion. Although Members of the subcommittee were not unanimous, the great majority were of the opinion that the Administration did not have sufficient reason to move a motion under the Traffic Accident Victims (Assistance Fund) Ordinance to increase the levies on vehicle owners and driving licence holders by 120% in two years' time. They considered such a rate of increase too high and unfair to car owners and driving licence holders.
The subcommittee has four reasons for moving the amendment. Firstly, the Administration should not lower the rate of contribution from general revenue to the Traffic Accident Victims Assistance Fund from October 1992 onward without conducting an overall review of the Traffic Accident Victims Assistance (TAVA) Scheme and prior consultation with this Council. This Fund was set up in accordance with section 3 of the Traffic Accident Victims (Assistance Fund) Ordinance mainly for the purpose of making disbursements approved by the Legislative Council under the TAVA Scheme as set out in section 4(a) of the Ordinance. According to section 3(2) of the Ordinance, the Fund has four sources of finance — (1) levies on vehicle and driving licences, (2) refunds from applicants who have received compensation from other parties in relation to the same traffic accidents, (3) contribution from the general revenue and (4) proceeds derived from investments of the Fund. Although there is no specific provision in the Ordinance, the then Secretary for Environmental Affairs did say during the Second Reading debate of the Bill that the intention of the Bill was that two-thirds of the Fund's finance should come from levies on the two licences and the remaining one-third from the general revenue. The Administration laid down such a rate of contribution because it accepted that the TAVA Scheme was a measure of social welfare and the whole community should help in contributing towards the Fund. Another reason for laying down such a rate was that pedestrians' negligence accounted roughly for one-third of the total number of traffic accidents. Even though the number of traffic accidents caused by pedestrians' negligence varied in the ensuing period, the Administration has maintained such a rate of contribution for 14 years until October 1992 when it suddenly slashed its contribution from one-third to one-fifth, on the pretext that the Administration's contribution should reflect only the pedestrians' share of responsibility in traffic accidents, thus causing the income of the Fund to drop by as much as 15%. Subsequently, the Administration swiftly moved a motion in March 1993 to increase the levies on the two licences. Such a practice was very unfair to vehicle owners and drivers. At that time, the subcommittee set up by this Council opposed this practice and requested the Administration to consider other measures for increasing income
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 12 January 1994 1721
and decreasing expenditure. However, after nine months and not having fully considered all the proposals forwarded by Members, the Administration again proposed to increase the levies on the reason of capital shortage of the Fund, and the proposed amount of increase has been raised significantly from the 50% in March 1993 to the current 120%. Also, the Administration has failed to come up with any specific proposals for increasing the Fund's finance. The subcommittee found that the Administration's practice was inappropriate.
Secondly, the Administration's method of determining the cause of traffic accidents is not so accurate to the effect that vehicle owners and drivers may possibly be required to shoulder an unreasonable proportion of responsibility. The Administration has said that such a method has been used for many years and there is no reason for changing it, but since we are required to accept the proportion of fault between pedestrians and drivers as the basis for determining the rate of contribution, then such a basis must be scientifically sound in order to be acceptable to the public. The Administration's attitude of leaving a mistake uncorrected and trying to make the best of it is really debatable.
Thirdly, the Administration has not been active in finding ways to improve the amount of refunds by applicants and increase other sources of finance. Currently, the amount of refunds by applicants only accounts for around 10% of total disbursements. Members of the subcommittee believe that if the authority concerned can encourage and assist more applicants and beneficiaries to claim compensation from those who caused the accidents or the insurance companies, simplify the relevant procedures or directly require the insurance companies to undertake part of the contribution, then the finance of the Fund can be improved, thus relieving the pressure for increasing levies on the licences. But the Administration has not done so.
Fourthly, the amount of disbursements in recent years has increased significantly. It is estimated that the amount paid out in 1993-94 will increase by 65% over that of 1991-92. Members of the subcommittee worry that if the increase should continue at such a rate, it would not be long before the levies on the licences would have to be increased again. So the subcommittee is asking the authority concerned to review the Scheme as soon as possible.
Given that the Fund may be exhausted in the beginning of this year, the subcommittee agrees that the levies on the licences be increased appropriately. For the four reasons described above, the subcommittee has also agreed to amend the Secretary's motion in order to reduce the rate of increase in the levies. In calculating the rate, the subcommittee agreed that the income from levies should only account for two-thirds of the total expenditure of the TAVA Scheme and the remaining one-third should be undertaken by the Administration. In other words, the subcommittee hopes that the Administration can increase its contribution to the former one-third level. Calculating in this method, the income of the Fund will be sufficient to pay for expenditure of the Scheme until the end of 1995, thus providing ample time for the Administration to review the Scheme and examine other ways of improving
1722 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 12 January 1994
the finance of the Fund. The subcommittee has also requested the Transport Panel of this Council to keep this issue in view and to urge the authority concerned to complete the relevant review as soon as possible.
I hope that the authority concerned will understand the worries of the subcommittee and discharge its duty as soon as possible by actively examining the proposals of the subcommittee and proposing to this Council in due course the allocation of fund to the TAVA Fund, rather than making repeated intimidations that should the Administration's proposal before us now not be approved, disbursements to traffic accident victims would have to be discontinued once the Fund is exhausted, hoping that pressure could be exerted on this Council by so doing.
With these remarks, Madam deputy, I move the amendment.
Question on Mrs Miriam LAU's amendment proposed.
MR HUI YIN-FAT (in Cantonese): Madam deputy, the Traffic Accident Victims Assistance (TAVA) Fund is run by the Government as a non-means test emergency relief to traffic accident victims or their families regardless of responsibility in causing accidents. It is in essence a form of social welfare provided by the Government to citizens. In theory, the Government should even meet the expenditure on compensation in full. However, I agree to requiring vehicle owners and driving licence holders to contribute two-thirds of the fund's revenue by way of levies, in order not to increase pressure on public purse. This arrangement could serve to educate the public as well. But the rate of contribution by the three parties towards the expenditure should not be determined by the degree of responsibility in causing traffic accidents.
The Government proposes to reduce its contribution towards the fund from one-third to one-fifth on the grounds that there are signs of a declining number of traffic accidents caused by pedestrians' negligence during the last several years. I cannot agree to this proposal. Certainly it is because of the difficulty in applying a unified set of standards to the examination of the causes of complicated traffic accidents. But more importantly, the proposal runs counter to the spirit of making disbursements from the fund to traffic accident victims. In this connection, I cannot agree to the Government's policy change and proposed increase, in levies although the levies on car owners and drivers are not at all high.
Some people think that the Government had once, to ensure funds for welfare services not to be affected, resorted to cutting its contribution towards the TAVA Fund in order to tie in with the central government's policy directive then of requiring all departments to cut expenditure by one percentage point; and now that the fund is short of revenue, the Government should return a favour. But I think this notion is totally absurd and unfounded. The Government's financial commitments to welfare services and to the fund are
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 12 January 1994 1723
fundamentally different in nature. The Government is responsible for providing the public with the necessary social welfare services even if there is not such a fund. The expenditure and revenue of the fund should not be linked up with the recurrent expenditure of welfare services under any circumstances.
Available information indicated that the Government's commitment to TAVA Fund in 1992-93 was budgeted at $20 million. But the estimate was revised to $17 million in July the same year when the Executive Council agreed to revise the Government's rate of contribution to the fund. However, the fund's administrative costs of the same year was as much as $11 million, far higher than those committed by the Government to other funds. In view of this, why did the Government not first of all examine the possibility of cutting the administrative costs before trying to reduce its commitment to the fund? Incidentally, it is questionable as to whether or not the Government should meet the administrative costs of the fund in full although it is responsible for its management.
Madam deputy, judging from the way the fund makes disbursements to traffic accident victims or their families, this is a provision of basic assistance on the part of the Government to citizens, in particular those who are financially unable to cope with traffic accidents. Therefore, the Government can hardly shirk its financial commitment to the fund. Nor can it reduce its contribution on one excuse or another for it is government responsibility to provide people with welfare protection. This episode reflected that the Government has underestimated the strong response from the public and Members of this Council. It is difficult for the Government to win the public support for its position, especially more so when there are huge surpluses in the public coffers. On basis of the above reasons, I fully support the subcommittee's proposal to the House Committee of this Council and the amendments moved by the Honourable Miriam LAU.
MR ANDREW WONG (in Cantonese): Madam deputy, I am speaking to oppose Mrs Miriam LAU's amendment. I support the original motion of the Secretary for Health and Welfare. I am one of the members of the subcommittee charged with the duty to study the motion, and I should like to thank Mrs LAU, the chairperson of the subcommittee, for having pointed out that the views of the subcommittee are not unanimous. I am the only one on the subcommittee who holds dissenting views. May I try to convince all Honourable Members to change their minds and turn around to support the original motion moved by the Secretary for Health and Welfare.
Madam deputy, let us take a look at the magnitude of the rate proposed by the motion to increase the levies of the Traffic Accident Victims (Assistance Fund) Ordinance. At present, the annual levies are 48 "bucks" per vehicle owner and 16 "bucks" per driver. I say "bucks" instead of "dollars" because "bucks" is a more appropriate and vivid term which also reflects the minuteness of the amounts involved. The motion seeks to increase the annual levies twice in
1724 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 12 January 1994
two years: In 1994, each vehicle owner and driver are to pay 78 "bucks" and 26 "bucks" respectively. In 1995, they are to pay 126 "dollars" (I use the term "dollars" because the levy exceeds $100) and 42 "bucks" respectively. We must not be misled and frightened by the percentage of increase. Let me leave the intermediate 1994 levies aside. Even if the levies were raised immediately to the 1995 level, and the annual levy on each vehicle owner were raised from $48 to $126, the increase would be $78 per year only. Likewise, if the annual levy on each driver were raised from 16 "bucks" to 42 "bucks," the increase would be 26 "bucks" only. Based on the 1995 levy level, the monthly levy on each vehicle owner would be 13 "bucks" whereas the monthly levy on each driver would be $3.50. Would a fair and reasonable man consider the increases to be big or small?
Madam deputy, I do not want to be verbose. I just want to compare the levies with the costs of keeping and driving vehicles. The monthly rental of a parking space in a public housing estate is about $1,000. The hourly parking charge is about $8. It costs about $40 to mend a flat tyre. Towing charge is about $400. The fine for each count of illegal parking (per ticket) is $200. Filling up the fuel tank of a light or medium vehicle costs about $300, let alone other costs. Madam deputy, the TAVA levy on each vehicle owner will be $13 per month in 1995 (only $6.5 per month in 1994) whereas the levy on each driver will be $3.5 per month in 1995 (only $2.2 per month in 1994). What do these amounts matter?
Madam deputy, I know that the argument of other Members on the subcommittee is that it is not a matter of magnitude but matters of principle and the original intention. Let us look at the matter of principle first. The subcommittee's view is that under the present system, the proportion of traffic accidents caused by vehicle owners/drivers and pedestrians is not accurately worked out and is loaded against vehicle owners/drivers. Moreover, the Government has not actively encouraged traffic accident victims to sue drivers at fault for compensation to contribute to the TAVA Fund. I consider that the TAVA scheme should be a simple one. To apportion blame meticulously and to encourage by all means or even to force accident victims to sue for compensation would only complicate the scheme, making the already high administrative cost soar even higher, and is therefore not worth the candle. Another consideration is that, legally speaking, discussion of matters of principle should not be undertaken by a subcommittee charged with the duty to study the motion on levy increase, but should be left to the relevant policy-making committees of the Council to follow up. It is not justifiable to reject the motion or to cut the levy increase simply on the ground of a matter of principle. Therefore, it can be said that this is an arbitrary approach which reflects the struggle between the Government and the Legislative Council.
Madam deputy, I concede that the original intention of the Traffic Accident Victims (Assistance Fund) Ordinance is questionable. I had raised such a question myself at meetings of the subcommittee because when the ordinance was enacted in 1979, the proportion from the levies on vehicle
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 12 January 1994 1725
owners/drivers and the contribution from general revenue was two to one, that is one-third of the cost of the TAVA Scheme was borne by the general revenue (the taxpayers). At the time when the Secretary for Planning, Environment and Lands moved the Second Reading of the Bill, he also spelt out the two to one contribution, and that the one-third contribution from general revenue was for welfare commitment. It is really not too difficult to resolve the doubts. Firstly, if we think carefully, we will appreciate that the term "welfare" was rather vague at the time. All arguments about the meanings of welfare, safeguards and services arose only during the 1980s (specifically, after 1985), after elected elements were introduced into the Legislative Council. There is not yet any conclusive definition for this term. Secondly, if we look at paragraphs 116 and 117, two of the paragraphs about this scheme in the 1987 report of the Director of Audit, we will appreciate that the one-third contribution from general revenue for the so-called welfare commitment was in fact worked out roughly on the basis of the percentage of accidents attributable to pedestrian carelessness in traffic accidents. Paragraph 116 has spelt out the original intention of the Executive Council. Paragraph 117 has indicated that the Finance Committee approved the appropriation of funds on this ground. The speech of the Secretary for Planning, Environment and Lands on the Second Reading of the Bill should be interpreted as such. It appears to me that the Administration had misinterpreted the original intention of the Ordinance when it responded to the 1987 proposal of the Director of Audit to cut the contribution from general revenue. Even if the interpretation was correct, we would also be caught in a dilemma. Now that accidents attributable to pedestrian carelessness have dropped to one-fifth, if one-third of the cost is to be contributed from general revenue, the extra fund will have to be met by general revenue meant solely for welfare programmes. If this extra cost is to be borne by the Administration, the expenditure on other welfare programmes will have to be cut. May I ask my Honourable Members which item of welfare expenditure would you be willing to cut? Moreover, why should taxpayers in general bear the cost arising from the faults of drivers and vehicle owners?
Madam deputy, we have twice set up a subcommittee to study the present motion. The two subcommittees held six meetings from the end of February 1993 to now. The majority conclusion, that is Mrs LAU's amendment motion, is to reduce and lower the rate of increase of the TAVA levies. Even if the 1995 levy level is to be adopted, the annual levies on each vehicle owner and driver will only be $126 and $42 respectively. Think about the respective annual levies of $75 and $25 in 1979 on each vehicle owner and driver. Is an increase of less than 100% over a period of 14 years really so unacceptable?
I call on all Honourable Colleagues to pay less attention to the trivial, and pay more heed to important things by rejecting Mrs LAU's amendment motion.
DR LEONG CHE-HUNG (in Cantonese): Madam deputy, first of all, I take exception to Mr Andrew WONG's points. Firstly, it is not a matter of the magnitude of increase but a matter of principle. Secondly, Mr WONG said that,
1726 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 12 January 1994
if we were to inject more money to the TAVA Fund, we would have to cut back on other welfare spending. I cannot agree with this point either.
Madam deputy, the number of minor and major traffic accidents that happen in Hong Kong every year amounts to 15 000, resulting in more than 20 000 casualties. Regardless of who is to blame, these sudden accidents cause temporary or even long-term traumas and financial difficulties to the victims and their families. That is why the Government set up the TAVA Fund 15 years ago to provide speedy financial assistance to accident victims and their families regardless of faults in causing the accidents or the financial means of the families. This is a correct approach.
Precisely for the same reason, we cannot allow the TAVA Fund to become insolvent, resulting in a sudden lack of funds for those in urgent needs. Regrettably, in order to prevent this crisis, the Government proposes to seek funds from all vehicle owners and holders of driving licence, and impose a drastic increase on the levies on them in the next two years. The Government's motion is to increase the levies by 60% a year in each of the next two years. Based on the present levy level, a levy of $100 at present will go up to $256 two years later, representing a sharp increase of 156% in comparison with the present levy. Apart from this, the Government does not examine ways and means to open up new sources of finance and cut down expenditure. This, I think, is unfair. Perhaps I should declare interests here. I am a vehicle owner and a holder of driving licence. Today's debate concerns my personal interest. Still, I will be very glad to contribute to the TAVA Fund, however, on the condition that the scheme should be fair, reasonable and not one which smacks of a "blatant robbery." Therefore, I cannot support the Government's motion. Mrs Miriam LAU's amendment motion to reduce the annual increase to about 30% is acceptable. However, increasing the TAVA levies on vehicle owners and motorists alone can never solve the problem of deficit.
Madam deputy, I support Mrs LAU's amendment motion but I also urge the Government to examine comprehensively, as soon as possible, other ways and means to open up new sources of finance and cut down expenditure so as to root out the problem of deficit.
Perhaps let me talk about ways to cut down expenditure first. I believe that nobody will deliberately cause a traffic accident to inflict self-injury in order to claim the limited amount of financial assistance. Therefore, the disbursements to be made to applicants cannot be cut. However, there is plenty of room for cutting down administrative cost. In 1991-92, about $60 million were disbursed from the Fund to traffic accident victims to meet their urgent needs. However, the administrative cost for this was as high as $9.5 million. In other words, for every hundred dollars of disbursement, there was a corresponding administrative cost of about 15%, that is $15. The ratio is on the increase every year. In 1987, administrative cost only represented 13% of the disbursements. Therefore, the Government has to conduct a review to find out if the rate of increase of administrative cost is reasonable. The Government
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 12 January 1994 1727
must also try to further simplify the application and approval procedure, so that the Fund can benefit more needy people rather than keeping more administrative staff.
As regards the opening up of new sources of finance, honourable colleagues of this Council made a series of suggestions to the Government last year. Regrettably, the relevant departments have not yet worked out any specific measures in response to these suggestions. The matter dragged on again and again. Now, the Government comes back to us for a sharp increase of the TAVA levies on vehicle owners and motorists.
The point is: Are there no other solutions or is the Administration unwilling to open up new sources of finance?
So far, there are four sources of finance for the Fund. The Secretary for Health and Welfare and Mrs LAU have already mentioned about them a moment ago. I am not going to repeat. I just want to highlight one of the sources, namely, refunds to the Fund from applicants who received compensation.
Since the inception of the Fund, government contribution accounted for one-third of the total cost of the Scheme. However, in October 1992, the Executive Council approved the reduction of annual government contribution to one-fifth of the total cost of the Scheme on the ground that the proportion of pedestrian-caused traffic accidents had fallen.
I think such a revision has caused severe "internal damage" to the Scheme because it is not a simple technical revision but a radical change of policy, and has deviated from the Government's original objective of setting up the Fund.
At first, when the Government decided to contribute one-third of the cost of the Scheme, one of the considerations was that pedestrian negligence had then caused about one-third of all traffic accidents. Another more important consideration was that the Government at the time did consider the TAVA Scheme as a welfare programme. That is why the Government devoted public money to such a heavy commitment, that is the welfare element mentioned by the Secretary for Health and Welfare a moment ago. Therefore, the Executive Council's decision to cut the proportion of government contribution on the only ground that the number of traffic accidents due to pedestrians' faults has dropped is obviously contrary to the original principle of treating TAVA Fund as welfare relief fund. The Government has to explain and clarify this change.
Unless the TAVA Fund ceases to be a welfare element, the first solution to the problem at hand is to revert the proportion of government contribution from one-fifth to one-third. Based on the $70 million total expenditure of the Fund in 1991-92, government contribution should be $23 million instead of $14 million. Reversion of government contribution to the original proportion is the most direct way to save the TAVA Fund from insolvency.
1728 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 12 January 1994
The second option to be examined for opening up new sources of finance is to make more applicants refund. Under the law, applicants of the Scheme are required to refund the disbursements to the Scheme if they succeed in recovering the compensation. However, according to the statistics for the past few years, the average annual refunds accounted for only 10% of the disbursement of the Scheme. This rate of refund is too low, and ways have to be found to increase the rate.
One of the feasible options is to simplify the legal procedures so that the Government can exercise the right to claim damages on behalf of the applicants to prevent them from not pursuing their claims for fear of trouble.
Another option is to enhance the co-operation between the Government and the Legal Aid Department in assisting victims eligible for legal aid to claim for compensation as soon as possible through the courts of law to increase the refund rate.
The third option is to impose a levy on insurance companies. All vehicle owners are required by law to take out third party insurance for their vehicles to ensure that traffic accident victims will be compensated. The Insurance Association estimated that last year the premium for third party insurance alone amounted to $300 million. This amount only includes the premium received by members of the Association, accounting for about three quarters of premium of the third party insurance market in the territory. In other words, the total premium received by the third party insurance market should exceed $300 million. Now the TAVA Scheme can only recover refunds equivalent to less than 10% of the disbursements. In the 1991-92, disbursements amounting to $60 million were made but refunds recovered amounted to $5.7 million only. If a contribution equal to 10% of the third party insurance premium can be collected, the Scheme will have an additional income of $30 million per year. This is a rich source of finance which the Government must explore. The fact that refunds to the TAVA Fund amounts to less than 10% of the disbursements shows that many applicants of the Scheme do not claim the third party insurance compensations due to them. Therefore, a more direct way is that the Government should consider imposing a levy according to the policy on the insurance companies that sell third party insurance.
I urge the Government to give serious consideration to recovering reasonable compensation from this huge source of finance from third party insurance. Since in addition to traffic accidents, there are also industrial accidents, the Government should also examine ways to get compensation due to it from labour insurance to recover the medical cost incurred by government hospitals in treating workers injured at work.
At present, the Government only charges injured workers hospitalized in government hospitals fees of third class beds, that is only the cost of meals, and their medical fees are subsidized with public money. However, all employers are required by law to take out labour insurance for their employees. In other
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 12 January 1994 1729
words, the medical fees of the injured workers are already covered by insurance, and should therefore be met by insurance compensation. However, with the excuse of complicated administrative procedures, the Government has been reluctant to find ways to recover from insurance companies the full medical costs incurred by government hospitals in treating workers injured at work. This is very unfair to the taxpayers.
Therefore, I hope that the TAVA Fund can have a breakthrough in this area to set an example for the Government.
I would like to take the opportunity here to thank Mrs LAU, who apart from leading the work of the subcommittee with unremitting efforts and moving the amendment motion, plans to bring the issue back to the Panel on Transport chaired by her for follow-up actions. I pin high hopes on the panel, and lend it my greatest support.
DR CONRAD LAM (in Cantonese): Madam deputy, I am not sure whether I have to declare interests because I am a vehicle owner, a holder of driving licence and a pedestrian. However, I am a pedestrian most of the time.
Madam deputy, the wording of the speech of the Secretary for Health and Welfare on the Traffic Accident Victims (Assistance Fund) Ordinance today differs to a certain degree from that of her letter in Chinese addressed to the subcommittee on 6 January. Perhaps, the Chinese letter was not drafted by her. In her letter, she emphasized that, unless the Legislative Council was co-operative, the Traffic Accident Victims Assistance (TAVA) Scheme would demise and exist only in name. She added that, if the amendment motion was passed, the Government would seek to raise the levies again in May or June. But the most puzzling of all is that she should suggest the Legislative Council consider repealing the Ordinance. The text of the letter is, and I quote, "Apart from this, Members of the Legislative Council may have to consider repealing the Ordinance." I must make one point emphatically clear. As far as I know, among all Members of this Council, none of us would agree to repealing the Traffic Accident Victims (Assistance Fund) Ordinance. It is really very shocking and puzzling to me that the Secretary, Mrs WONG, who has all along attached importance to social welfare, should suggest that we, Members of the Legislative Council, should consider repealing the Ordinance. If the Government does not want to continue the TAVA Scheme, it may frankly say so. According to the Government's budget, there would be a deficit of about $3.3 billion this year. However, this deficit has now turned into a huge surplus. Even without the levy increase, it would still be hardly credible to say that with this $30 million or so, the Government cannot afford the cost of the scheme. Does the Government mean to abandon the TAVA Scheme? If this is the case, it would have to be responsible for the consequences.
1730 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 12 January 1994
It is said that the levy of merely tens of dollars on vehicle owners and holders of driving licence is insignificant. I do not agree to this for the following two reasons:
Firstly, if the Government's motion is passed, the TAVA levy will increase by 62% after the second increase, that is, in about three months. It would be a very big increase.
Secondly, the most important consideration is the way in which the cost of the scheme is shared. The way has been unfair to vehicle owners and holders of driving licence from the very beginning. I call on government officials and Members of the Council who are concerned about this Ordinance to spare one or two minutes to read the speech of Mr Oswald CHEUNG, the then Senior Unofficial Member of Legislative Council, delivered on 20 December 1978 at the Second Reading of the TAVA Bill. Mr CHEUNG made it very clear that he hoped that the Government would work out a simpler and fairer way to raise fund. He also suggested that if, after the introduction of the method, operational difficulties were found, or the method was found to be unfair, then consideration could be given to levying on vehicle fuel prices. Over the past years, fuel tax has been raised again and again but has the tax revenue ever been used to support the TAVA Fund? While moving the Second Reading of the Bill in this Council on 29 November, the Secretary for Planning, Environment and Lands said that being a social welfare programme irrespective of fault, this scheme should be funded with public money. About one-third of traffic accidents are caused by pedestrians. Since the TAVA Scheme is a social welfare programme, why then must vehicle owners and holders of driving licence share two-thirds of the cost of the scheme? What wrong have they done? The explanation given at the time by the Secretary for Planning, Environment and Lands was that, since most traffic accidents were caused by motorists, they should share a certain contribution. I find the Secretary's argument illogical on the following grounds:
Firstly, since the TAVA Scheme is irrespective of fault, and pedestrians, vehicle owners and holders of driving licence are all Hong Kong citizens, why should the cost of pedestrians' faults be met by general revenue whereas the cost of faults attributable to other reasons is borne by all vehicle owners and holders of driving licence?
Secondly, vehicle owners and holders of driving licence have paid their annual licence fees and taxes for using the roads.
Thirdly, even if a traffic accident is caused by a motorist, the vehicle owner concerned has done his duty through the insurance, and may even have been punished accordingly by law.
Fourthly, if the Government's decision on who should pay is based on who is at fault, why require the 400 000-odd vehicle owners and 900 000-odd holders of driving licence who have done nothing wrong to share the liability of
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 12 January 1994 1731
individual drivers who are at fault? We cannot penalize an entire group for the faults of its individual members. This would be unfair and unreasonable to the innocent. It is said that vehicle owners and holders of driving licence are a more easily identifiable group. To require them to contribute more can obviate the need to cut the expenditure of the Social Welfare Department on other items. This argument is very questionable:
Firstly, it is very improper to solve problems by unfair means simply for the convenience of the executive-led Government.
Secondly, to single out and discriminate vehicle owners and holders of driving licence is contrary to the democratic spirit of safeguarding the interests of the minorities.
Thirdly, this presupposes the insignificance of the TAVA Scheme before the Social Welfare Department publicizes its way to prioritize the various social welfare services.
Madam deputy, at the Second Reading of the TAVA Bill in this Council in 1978, only a few Unofficial Members spoke on the Bill. Although all Members of the Council in those days were appointed members, the Senior Unofficial Member questioned the equitability and desirability of the Bill. Today, many Members of the Council are speaking from the stand point of members of the public, enhancing greatly the credibility of the Council. If the Government really wants to continue the TAVA Scheme and has to inject more fund, it can put up the request to the Finance Committee at any time. I believe that Members will be glad to endorse and accept such a request. What does this prove? It proves that Members of this Council support the TAVA Scheme. If, instead of seeking for additional fund, the Government seeks to increase the TAVA levies, this would be a deliberate and unfair discrimination of part of the community.
Lastly, I want to stress that the United Democrats of Hong Kong support the Government in injecting more fund when necessary, so that the operation of the TAVA Scheme can continue. In addition, we call on the Government to adopt a simpler and fairer levying method. However, we oppose the Government's motion today, and do not support Mrs Miriam LAU's amendment motion.
I so submit.
MR ERIC LI: Madam deputy, I have no quarrel with my honourable colleagues on the findings of the subcommittee. There are good reasons to press the Administration in taking a serious look at the rather shabby administration of the TAVA Scheme. However, it seems that the amendment only seeks to simply pass the bulk of the financial buck back to the Government. It is from this hasty conclusion that I beg to differ.
1732 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 12 January 1994
We are correct to recognize that the scheme is welfare in nature. But what is welfare? It is not equivalent to say that the Government must immediately "cough up" the necessary funds. If all welfare programmes are automatically funded, I shall be a very happy man as the chairman of the Social Welfare Advisory Committee. Therefore, the passing of the amendment can at best achieve in making a point and exerting some moral pressure on the Administration. Unless we can be satisfied beyond reasonable doubt that the Government has a statutory duty at all times to make payment to accident victims under the scheme, the fact of life is that any request for fresh funds from the public coffers, welfare or otherwise, will still have to be prioritized in the normal Resource Allocation Exercise. It is obvious therefore that there is no guaranteed funding.
The point is that if we accept the scheme as a necessary welfare, which it clearly is, it is much more important to ensure that monies come from somewhere. It is less important who actually pays it. Welfare is not really about a system to apportion responsibility, it is not about a system to place blames. We as legislators cannot place responsibilities and seek to "punish" the Government for poor administration if it is ultimately the taxpayer in general who pays the "fines". There are shining examples in the travel and securities industries where there are levy systems in place to collect from the good guys to cover for the mistakes of those who fail in the same industry regardless of blame. The right approach to take in welfare funding is to see who are more able and who have better reasons to pay. Then it is a question of whether it is at an affordable level. Put in this context, my own choice is to ask the motorists rather than the taxpayers in general to contribute towards this small increase in levy. The funding from this source is certain, is well affordable in absolute terms by vehicle owners and it sends a more positive social message to the community.
If this Council persists in a course of laying blames and shifting responsibilities, we may win an argument. But at the end of the day, future traffic victims may fall victim once more, not to accident this time, but as a direct result of our inability to reach practical compromises with the Government.
The TAVA Scheme has taken years in the 1970s to establish after much hard bargaining and compromises. It is a slippery road to go down again. With the reasons given above and a firm commitment to ensure that the scheme remains adequately funded, I cannot support the amendment to the motion until after a full review.
PRESIDENT'S DEPUTY: Secretary for Health and Welfare, do you wish to reply?
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 12 January 1994 1733
SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE: Yes, indeed, Madam deputy. I am grateful for all the comments and criticisms uttered in the debate. In particular, I am grateful for the singular appeal and perceptive support from the Honourable Andrew WONG and the Honourable Eric LI. I am also grateful for the constructive suggestions from Dr the Honourable LEONG Che-hung and Dr the Honourable Conrad LAM.
However, it would appear to me that Members' criticisms stemmed essentially from what they would wish the TAVA Scheme to be, rather than what the TAVA Scheme is. We have, as quoted by the Honourable Eric LI, a time-honoured TAVA Fund.
This time-honoured policy that the TAVA Fund should be financed in accordance with the law, that is to say, levies on vehicle and driving licences, contribution from general revenue on behalf of pedestrians, refunds from applicants and proceeds derived from investment of the fund.
We have explained earlier, and many times at meetings with Members of the Legislative Council, that the proportion from the levies on vehicle and driving licences and the contribution from general revenue should correspond broadly to the proportion of traffic accidents caused by motorists and pedestrians respectively. It is on this basis that the contribution from general revenue now covers one fifth of the cost of the TAVA Scheme, that is to say, put it another way, the contribution from general revenue covers a 100% of accidents attributable to pedestrian carelessness.
Indeed, in the event that pedestrians became the main offenders, naturally contribution from general revenue would have to be reviewed and adjusted accordingly in accordance with the existing scheme and existing policy.
Here I must again congratulate the Road Safety Council for their excellent work, which it has done to promote road safety amongst road users. I am happy to say that pedestrians are now taking greater care in crossing the road and as a result the percentage of traffic accidents caused by pedestrians' negligence has dropped dramatically.
The financing of the TAVA Scheme is fair, based as it is on the principle of proportional distribution. To reject this principle would knock at the very foundation of the existing scheme. To change the essentials of the scheme might mean the demise of the scheme itself and the start of an entirely new scheme under an entirely new situation.
Madam deputy, it could be argued that in Utopia we would not need a TAVA Scheme at all as there would be no traffic accidents. But we must deal in reality. There are traffic accidents, and it is good that we have this scheme to provide immediate relief to victims, whether they are drivers of vehicles or pedestrians, irrespective of means and fault.
1734 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 12 January 1994
Reality also tells us that the TAVA Fund is fast running out in the next couple of months. The motion I move is aimed at restoring the fund to a solvent state for speedy disbursements to be made to those in need. The levies proposed in my motion amount to an additional $10 and $30 for this year and a further $16 and $48 for the next year. It is a small contribution to comfort those in need. My proposal would also enable the Fund to operate efficiently and with certainty.
Madam deputy, it is my public duty to seek appropriate funding for the scheme in accordance with the approved policy. I trust Honourable Members will wish to do their part.
Thank you, Madam deputy.
Question on Mrs Miriam LAU's amendment to Secretary for Health and Welfare's motion put.
Voice vote taken.
The President's deputy said she thought the "Ayes" had it.
MR ANDREW WONG: Madam deputy, may I claim a division?
PRESIDENT'S DEPUTY: We shall proceed to a division.
PRESIDENT'S DEPUTY: Would Members now proceed to vote?
THE PRESIDENT'S DEPUTY: It seems that one Member has not voted. Yes, it is all right now. Do Members have any queries because, if not, we will now have the results displayed?
Mrs Selina CHOW, Mr HUI Yin-fat, Mr Martin LEE, Mr SZETO Wah, Mr Edward HO, Mr Ronald ARCULLI, Mrs Peggy LAM, Mrs Miriam LAU, Mr LAU Wah-sum, Dr LEONG Che-hung, Mr Jimmy McGREGOR, Mr Albert CHAN, Mr Vincent CHENG, Mr Moses CHENG, Mr Marvin CHEUNG, Mr CHEUNG Man-kwong, Rev FUNG Chi-wood, Mr Frederick FUNG, Mr Michael HO, Dr HUANG Chen-ya, Dr Conrad LAM, Mr LAU Chin shek, Miss Emily LAU, Mr LEE Wing-tat, Mr Fred LI, Mr Henry TANG, Mr TIK Chi-yuen, Dr Samuel WONG, Dr Philip WONG, Dr YEUNG Sum, Mr Howard YOUNG, Mr WONG Wai-yin, Dr TANG Siu-tong, Mr James TIEN and Mr Alfred TSO voted for the amendment.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 12 January 1994 1735
The Chief Secretary, the Attorney General, the Financial Secretary, Mr Andrew WONG, Mr Timothy HA, Mr Eric LI, Miss Christine LOH, Mr Roger LUK, Ms Anna WU voted against the amendment.
Mr CHIM Pui-chung abstained.
THE PRESIDENT'S DEPUTY announced that there were 35 votes in favour of the amendment and nine votes against it. She therefore declared that the amendment was carried.
Question on the amended motion put and agreed to.
First Reading of Bill
HONG KONG AIRPORT (CONTROL OF OBSTRUCTIONS) (AMENDMENT) BILL 1993
Bill read the First time and ordered to be set down for Second Reading pursuant to Standing Order 41(3).
Second Reading of Bills
HONG KONG AIRPORT (CONTROL OF OBSTRUCTIONS) (AMENDMENT) BILL 1993
THE SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS moved the Second Reading of: "A Bill to amend the Hong Kong Airport (Control of Obstructions) Ordinance."
He said: Madam deputy, I move the Second Reading of the Hong Kong Airport (Control of Obstruction) (Amendment) Bill. The Bill seeks to extend the application of the Hong Kong Airport (Control of Obstruction) Ordinance to the proposed airport at Chek Lap Kok, to transfer certain powers vested in the Governor in Council to the Secretary for Planning, Environment and Lands and to revise the level of penalty prescribed under the Ordinance.
The Ordinance provides, among other things, for the restriction and, where necessary, the reduction of the heights of buildings in the interests of the safety of aircraft. It also provides for the control of lighting, provision and maintenance of aids to air navigation and other related matters. At present, the Ordinance only applies to the Hong Kong Airport, which means the airport at Kai Tak.
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Following the decision to build the replacement airport at Chek Lap Kok, a new set of Airport Height Restrictions will be required to ensure that the operation of the new airport will not be affected by building development. Hence, the first proposal in the Bill seeks to extend the provisions of the Ordinance to cover both the proposed airport as well as the existing one. This is an enabling measure to allow new Airport Height Restrictions in relation to the new airport to be prescribed by Orders made under the Ordinance in due course. It will have no immediate restrictive effect. The extent of new Airport Height Restrictions to be applied is still under consideration by the Administration. Lantau Island and some areas in the western part of the New Territories will probably be affected.
The second proposal is to relieve the workload of the Governor in Council in relation to technical and operational matters by transferring certain powers to the Secretary for Planning, Environment and Lands. These powers include the powers to specify Airport Height Restrictions, to authorize the provision or erection on buildings of any marks, lights and beacons for aviation safety purposes and to extend the period for making compensation claims under the Ordinance. The Bill also expressly empowers the Secretary for Planning, Environment and Lands, on the advice of the Director of Civil Aviation, to grant exemptions from Airport Height Restrictions for individual developments.
Finally, we propose to revise the penalty provisions under section 20 of the Ordinance. The present penalty level provided under the Ordinance was fixed in 1957 when the Ordinance was enacted. In order to maintain the deterrent effect against breaches of the provisions of the Ordinance, we propose to increase the penalty level and to add a provision imposing a daily default fine for some of the more serious offences involving continued non-compliance.
Madam deputy, the Bill is necessary to provide the legislation framework to safeguard the future operation of the airport at Chek Lap Kok and to improve the implementation of certain provisions of the Ordinance. I commend it to Members for favourable consideration.
Thank you, Madam deputy.
Bill referred to the House Committee pursuant to Standing Order 42(3A).
IMPORT AND EXPORT (AMENDMENT) (NO. 2) BILL 1993
Resumption of debate on Second Reading which was moved on 17 November 1993 Question on the Second Reading of the Bill proposed, put and agreed to.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 12 January 1994 1737 Bill read the Second time.
Bill committed to a Committee of the whole Council pursuant to Standing Order 43(1).
NOISE CONTROL (AMENDMENT) BILL 1993
Resumption of debate on Second Reading which was moved on 12 May 1993 Question on Second Reading proposed.
DR SAMUEL WONG: Madam deputy, the purpose of the Noise Control (Amendment) Bill 1993 seeks to tighten up the use of noisy powered mechanical equipment (PME) and non powered mechanical equipment (non-PME) in construction works during the restricted hours in designated areas which are essentially either populated or particularly sensitive. The Bill also seeks to clarify some of the existing provisions and empower the Secretary for Planning, Environment and Lands to establish designated areas and issue Technical Memorandum for such purposes.
The Bill was introduced into this Council on 12 May 1993. A Bills Committee was formed to study the Bill. The Committee, chaired by me, has held four meetings, three of which are with the Administration.
Three major issues have been considered by the Bills Committee. Firstly, it is the level of penalties. The current penalty levels in the Noise Control Ordinance were introduced in 1988. Members consider that opportunity should be taken to review the penalties and bring them in line with those provided for similar offences under other environmental protection legislations in order to achieve the necessary deterrent effect. After a review conducted by the Administration, Members are pleased to note that the Administration is prepared to move an amendment to adjust upwards the fines under the various sections of the Noise Control Ordinance.
Secondly, the Bills Committee deals with the drafting problem of existing section 6(6) and the proposed section 6(7). According to the Administration, both sections are intended to provide a defence for the same class of persons, that is, owners, tenants and occupiers of domestic premises in respect of certain noisy activities performed by them. However, the drafting of the two subsections would have the effect of having two different definitions on the scope of the beneficiaries of the defence. At the request of Members, the Administration redrafts the provision by combining the two subsections together to achieve more clarity. A Committee stage amendment will be moved by the Administration to reflect this.
1738 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 12 January 1994
Thirdly, Members have spent considerable time to discuss the six-month transitional period proposed by the Administration to enable the construction industry to make adjustments for the implementation of the Bill. It is noted that the Hong Kong Construction Association, while supporting the Government's efforts, has requested that the grace period should be extended for the 43 000 construction works covered by running contracts and contracts already tendered and/or signed. The Administration, in response, pointed out that different grace periods would give rise to enforcement and resource problems. Although it is possible to clarify the status of the activities by means of a permit system, the staff resource requirement is significant. The original intention is to introduce far more stringent measures to control construction noise than what is now contained in the Bill. The Administration does not wish to further relax the controlling measures. The combination of the time spent in discussing with the industry, the time required for the legislative process and the advance notice given to the industry of the proposed controls should have given sufficient time to the industry to prepare for the implementation of the Bill. Members of the Bills Committee, except one, accept the Administration's explanation and standpoint. The dissenting Member, Mr Ronald ARCULLI, however, is of the view that the Administration should consider issuing permits to the work sites which are covered by running contracts or contracts tendered or signed before the enforcement of the Bill and exempting them from the requirements of the Bill.
Further information pertaining to the estimated number of permits/letters to be issued to ongoing contracts and the resources required was provided to the House Committee to facilitate its deliberation on the Bill. Both the recommendation of the Bills Committee and the dissenting view had been brought to the attention of the House Committee. The House Committee endorsed the Bills Committee's recommendation.
Mr Ronald ARCULLI has given notice to move amendments to the Bill to the effect that the proposed control of noisy PME and non-PME work will not apply to construction works covered by running written contracts and contracts already tendered and/or signed before the enactment of the Bill. I personally appreciate Mr ARCULLI's concern but I am afraid that I cannot support his proposed amendment. I believe that the industry is supportive of any environmental protection legislation. They would make their best effort to co-operate and reschedule their works to meet the requirement of the Bill. As far as I know, the longer the duration of a contract, the more flexibility a contractor can exercise to accommodate such a change in law by means of improved site management, higher efficiency and work rescheduling. I hope Members would weigh very carefully the environmental benefits that could be brought to our community by the implementation of a uniform transitional period to all construction works before deciding whether or not to support Mr ARCULLI's proposed amendments.