HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 15 December 1993 1453 OFFICIAL RECORD OF PROCEEDINGS
Wednesday, 15 December 1993
The Council met at half-past Two o'clock
PRESENT
THE PRESIDENT
THE HONOURABLE JOHN JOSEPH SWAINE, C.B.E., LL.D., Q.C., J.P.
THE CHIEF SECRETARY
THE HONOURABLE MRS ANSON CHAN, C.B.E., J.P.
THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY
THE HONOURABLE NATHANIEL WILLIAM HAMISH MACLEOD, C.B.E., J.P.
THE ATTORNEY GENERAL
THE HONOURABLE JEREMY FELL MATHEWS, C.M.G., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE ALLEN LEE PENG-FEI, C.B.E., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE MRS SELINA CHOW LIANG SHUK-YEE, O.B.E., J.P. THE HONOURABLE MARTIN LEE CHU-MING, Q.C., J.P.
DR THE HONOURABLE DAVID LI KWOK-PO, O.B.E., LL.D., J.P. THE HONOURABLE NGAI SHIU-KIT, O.B.E., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE PANG CHUN-HOI, M.B.E.
THE HONOURABLE SZETO WAH
THE HONOURABLE TAM YIU-CHUNG
THE HONOURABLE ANDREW WONG WANG-FAT, O.B.E., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE LAU WONG-FAT, O.B.E., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE EDWARD HO SING-TIN, O.B.E., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE RONALD JOSEPH ARCULLI, O.B.E., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE MARTIN GILBERT BARROW, O.B.E., J.P.
1454 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 15 December 1993 THE HONOURABLE MRS PEGGY LAM, O.B.E., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE MRS MIRIAM LAU KIN-YEE, O.B.E., J.P. THE HONOURABLE LAU WAH-SUM, O.B.E., J.P.
DR THE HONOURABLE LEONG CHE-HUNG, O.B.E., J.P. THE HONOURABLE JAMES DAVID McGREGOR, O.B.E., I.S.O., J.P. THE HONOURABLE MRS ELSIE TU, C.B.E.
THE HONOURABLE PETER WONG HONG-YUEN, O.B.E., J.P. THE HONOURABLE ALBERT CHAN WAI-YIP
THE HONOURABLE VINCENT CHENG HOI-CHUEN, J.P. THE HONOURABLE MOSES CHENG MO-CHI
THE HONOURABLE MARVIN CHEUNG KIN-TUNG, J.P. THE HONOURABLE CHEUNG MAN-KWONG
THE HONOURABLE CHIM PUI-CHUNG
REV THE HONOURABLE FUNG CHI-WOOD
THE HONOURABLE FREDERICK FUNG KIN-KEE
THE HONOURABLE TIMOTHY HA WING-HO, M.B.E., J.P. THE HONOURABLE MICHAEL HO MUN-KA
DR THE HONOURABLE HUANG CHEN-YA
THE HONOURABLE SIMON IP SIK-ON, O.B.E., J.P.
DR THE HONOURABLE LAM KUI-CHUN
DR THE HONOURABLE CONRAD LAM KUI-SHING, J.P. THE HONOURABLE EMILY LAU WAI-HING
THE HONOURABLE LEE WING-TAT
THE HONOURABLE ERIC LI KA-CHEUNG, J.P.
THE HONOURABLE FRED LI WAH-MING
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 15 December 1993 1455 THE HONOURABLE MAN SAI-CHEONG
THE HONOURABLE STEVEN POON KWOK-LIM
THE HONOURABLE HENRY TANG YING-YEN, J.P.
THE HONOURABLE TIK CHI-YUEN
THE HONOURABLE JAMES TO KUN-SUN
DR THE HONOURABLE SAMUEL WONG PING-WAI, M.B.E., J.P. DR THE HONOURABLE PHILIP WONG YU-HONG
DR THE HONOURABLE YEUNG SUM
THE HONOURABLE HOWARD YOUNG, J.P.
THE HONOURABLE ZACHARY WONG WAI-YIN
DR THE HONOURABLE TANG SIU-TONG, J.P.
THE HONOURABLE CHRISTINE LOH KUNG-WAI
THE HONOURABLE ROGER LUK KOON-HOO
THE HONOURABLE ANNA WU HUNG-YUK
THE HONOURABLE ALFRED TSO SHIU-WAI
ABSENT
THE HONOURABLE HUI YIN-FAT, O.B.E., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE LAU CHIN-SHEK
THE HONOURABLE JAMES TIEN PEI-CHUN, O.B.E., J.P.
IN ATTENDANCE
MR MICHAEL SUEN MING-YEUNG, J.P.
SECRETARY FOR HOME AFFAIRS
MR CHAU TAK-HAY, J.P.
SECRETARY FOR TRADE AND INDUSTRY
1456 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 15 December 1993
MR JAMES SO YIU-CHO, O.B.E., J.P.
SECRETARY FOR RECREATION AND CULTURE
THE HONOURABLE MICHAEL SZE CHO-CHEUNG, I.S.O., J.P. SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS
MR ANTHONY GORDON EASON, J.P.
SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS
MR HAIDER HATIM TYEBJEE BARMA, I.S.O., J.P.
SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT
MR GORDON SIU KWING-CHUE, J.P.
SECRETARY FOR ECONOMIC SERVICES
MR DONALD TSANG YAM-KUEN, O.B.E., J.P.
SECRETARY FOR THE TREASURY
DR LEE SHIU-HUNG, I.S.O., J.P.
SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE
MR STUART WREFORD HARBINSON, J.P.
SECRETARY FOR THE CIVIL SERVICE
MR LAM WOON-KWONG, J.P.
SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER
MR KENNETH JOSEPH WOODHOUSE, J.P.
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY
MR TAM WING-PONG
SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES
THE CLERK TO THE LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL
MR CLETUS LAU KWOK-HONG
THE DEPUTY CLERK TO THE LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL MR PATRICK CHAN NIM-TAK
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 15 December 1993 1457 Papers
The following papers were laid on the table pursuant to Standing Order 14(2): Subject
Subsidiary Legislation L.N. No.
Film Censorship (Amendment)(No. 2)
Regulation 1993 ...................................................................................... 465/93 Education (Amendment) Regulation 1993 ...................................................... 466/93 Pilotage (Dues) (Amendment) Order 1993...................................................... 467/93
Public Health and Municipal Services (Public
Pleasure Grounds) (Amendment of Fourth
Schedule) (No. 7) Order 1993 ................................................................. 468/93 Public Order Curfew (Variation) (No. 4) Order 1993...................................... 469/93 The European Communities Notification........................................................ 470/93
Travel Industry Compensation Fund (Amount of
Ex Gratia Payments and Financial Penalty) Rules .................................. 471/93
Travel Industry Compensation Fund (Procedure for
Ex Gratia Payments) Rules...................................................................... 472/93
Sessional Papers 1993-94
No. 40 — Queen Elizabeth Foundation for the
Mentally Handicapped Report and Accounts 1992-93
No. 41 — The Accounts of the Lotteries Fund 1992-93
No. 42 — Chinese Temples Fund Income and
Expenditure Account with Balance Sheet and
Certificate of the Director of Audit
for the Year Ended 31 March 1993
No. 43 — Grantham Scholarships Fund Income and
Expenditure Account with Balance Sheet and
Certificate of the Director of Audit
for the Year Ended 31 August 1993
1458 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 15 December 1993
No. 44 — Social Work Training Fund
Thirty-Second Annual Report by the Trustee
for the Year Ending on 31 March 1993
No. 45 — Emergency Relief Fund Annual Report
by the Trustee for the Year Ending on 31 March 1993
No. 46 — Hong Kong Housing Authority Annual Accounts
for the Year Ended 31 March 1993 and
Balance Sheet as at that Date
Oral answers to questions
Retirement protection system
1. MR MICHAEL HO asked (in Cantonese): A motion was passed at the Legislative Council sitting on 3 February 1993 urging the Government to expedite the establishment of a central provident fund scheme, so that the people of Hong Kong could be provided with a properly designed retirement protection system. But the Governor pointed out in this year's policy address that public views were divided on such a system, and that proposals on the way forward could not be announced before the end of this year. Will the Government inform this Council of the basis on which the public views have been identified as divided, and the research to be carried out on this matter before the end of the year?
SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER (in Cantonese): Mr President, our basis for identifying public views on this subject include the 176 written submissions made in response to the consultation paper A Community-wide Retirement Protection System, the views made by commentators through the media, the views made to us through meetings, discussion sessions and seminars, and of course the views made by Members of this Council.
On the basis of these feedbacks, it is obvious to the Government that there is a diversity of views both as to whether a mandatory savings system is the right solution and as to the nature of that system.
Turning to the second part of the question, the Government has examined in detail the implications of the different approaches to retirement protection. We have now come to a conclusion on the way forward. I shall be making a statement in this Council later today to announce that conclusion.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 15 December 1993 1459
MR MICHAEL HO (in Cantonese): Mr President, I would like to raise a follow up question. How does the Administration identify from the 176 written submissions and other opinions from elsewhere the pros and cons of different options? And how does the Administration take the almost unanimous views of the Legislative Council on seeking the early establishment of a central provident fund?
PRESIDENT: Secretary, will you be covering this in your statement?
SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER (in Cantonese): Mr President, on receipt of the 176 written submissions, we had in fact submitted a summary of views to Members early this year. We had also presented to this Council submissions from organizations which did not object to making them public. Although a motion debate on this subject held at the Council sitting on 3 February was passed, the result of 22 for and 17 against the motion indicated that Members' views on the issue were divided.
Mr President, here I would like to add that I will explain in detail in the statement I am going to make later this afternoon as to how the Administration analyses the public views received.
MR TAM YIU-CHUNG (in Cantonese): Mr President, in the conclusion the Administration is going to make later today, how much weight will be given to the 176 written submissions?
SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER (in Cantonese): Mr President, the statement I am going to make later today is based on a summary of views of not just certain quarters but the community at large, which of course will include Members' views put to the Administration.
MR HENRY TANG (in Cantonese): Mr President, when the Executive Council discussed the retirement protection system yesterday, had the Administration put forward its views on the way forward?
SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER (in Cantonese): Mr President, since what have been discussed at the Executive Council meeting is confidential, I consider it inappropriate to disclose the views we put forward.
MR TIK CHI-YUEN (in Cantonese): Mr President, insofar as the government system is concerned, the Governor has mentioned that the Legislative Council has representativeness and its views should be respected. But on the question of
1460 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 15 December 1993
central provident fund, despite the fact that this Council's voice is absolutely clear and a motion has been passed, and that 40 Members have written to the Governor, urging for the early setting up of a central provident fund, the Government still refuses to set up such a fund. Does the Government have double standards in dealing with the Legislative Council?
SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER (in Cantonese): Mr President, a conclusion was reached after taking into full account the views of the Legislative Council.
MR JIMMY McGREGOR: Mr President, will the Secretary note that if the Government has come to the conclusion that an old age pension is now to be introduced instead of the Central Provident Fund, a great many aged people will thank the Government for it?
PRESIDENT: Is that a question there, Mr McGREGOR?
MR JIMMY McGREGOR: Mr President, it is a question: Will the Government note?
MR TAM YIU-CHUNG (in Cantonese): Mr President, since the question of retirement protection has been the subject of debate in the past 20 years, will the Administration estimate when a comprehensive retirement protection scheme will be set up at the earliest?
SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER (in Cantonese): Mr President, I will make a statement later this afternoon and will address such issues as our way forward and how we are going to achieve this goal.
Medical costs
2. DR CONRAD LAM asked (in Cantonese): As the rate of increase in medical costs is distinct from the rate of general inflation, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) of the method currently adopted by the Government for calculating medical costs in the public sector;
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 15 December 1993 1461
(b) of the annual rates of increase in the medical costs of various medical facilities such as convalescent hospitals, psychiatric hospitals, general hospitals, government clinics, specialist clinics, and so on in the past five years; and
(c) of the specific measures that are in hand to control medical costs?
SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE: Mr President, in calculating medical costs of providing hospital and clinic services, the Department of Health and the Hospital Authority adopt the standard government practice of the full-cost approach which comprise staff costs, drugs, consumables, overheads and depreciation on equipment and buildings. The unit costs for individual service types are then derived by dividing the total service cost with the activity level such as the number of bed days, the number of attendances and the number of visits.
The average rates of increase of medical costs over the past five years of various facilities are: 16% per year for general hospital beds and psychiatric hospital beds, 17% per year for general out-patient clinics and 15% per year for specialist out-patient clinics.
Our primary concern is to ensure cost-effectiveness in delivering medical services. That is, to achieve the best quality of healthcare within available resources. To this end, the Department of Health optimizes the use of resources through regular review of the mode of service delivery and streamlining procedures. Cost containment is enhanced through regular monitoring of expenditure patterns, drug management and drug monitoring committees. Furthermore, continuing education and training programmes are organized to provide the responsible staff with the knowledge and skills on financial management and control.
As regards the Hospital Authority, it has in place a resource management framework. As part of its business planning process, resource inputs are linked with service outputs, targets and quality standard. The use of resources at hospital level is then monitored and evaluated by the Head Office through a financial and performance reporting system. Clustering of hospitals and networking of services have also been introduced to rationalize the distribution of services, improve patient access and avoid unnecessary duplication of resources.
DR CONRAD LAM (in Cantonese): Mr President, according to the official figures given to this Council recently, the cost per attendance at the general out-patient clinic in 1993-94 is $152, representing a 37% increase when compared with $111 in 1992-93. As for the specialist out-patient clinics, the cost per attendance is $337 in 1993-94, representing a 7.7% increase when compared with that in 1992-93. These figures greatly differ from the average rates of
1462 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 15 December 1993
increase over the past five years mentioned in the second paragraph of the Secretary's reply, that is 17% for general out-patient clinics and 15% for specialist out-patient clinics. The rate of increase of medical costs in 1993-94 for general out-patient clinic is 37% which is 20% higher than the 17% average rate over the past five years. As for the specialist out patient clinics, comparison between the Secretary's reply today and the information given to this Council can see a 50% difference in projection (that is compared with an increase of 7.7%). Will the Administration inform this Council of the causes for such a great discrepancy?
SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE: Mr President, it is rather a reflection of a higher increase in medical costs in the general out-patient clinics. The 37% increase in medical costs per attendance at the general out-patient clinics is due to three factors: first, the price change of 11% in 1993-94 over 1992-93; secondly, a 22% increase in costs due to adoption of a global approach to establish the full and comprehensive costs of operating the 57 government general out-patient clinics including the outlying clinics, whereas in the past, owing to the lack of a computerized cost system, a selection of only five clinics was adopted; and thirdly, a 5% increase in costs due to improvement in quality of service through the introduction of individual medical records which caused an initial reduction in throughput and a consequential increase in unit cost. The increase in costs is thus partly attributable to improved accessibility and quality of patient care and partly due to inflation. The changes other than inflationary adjustment are one off and will not cause further increase in general out-patient charges in future.
PRESIDENT: Not answered, Dr LAM?
DR CONRAD LAM: My question has not been answered. (In Cantonese) Mr President, I would repeat my question. The rate of increase of cost for specialist out-patient clinics in 1993-94 is 7.7%, whereas the average rate of increase over the past five years given in the Secretary's reply is 15%. That is, there is a 50% difference. Will the Secretary account for this?
SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE: Mr President, the increase in cost of 15% over the five-year period is an average rate of increase. The 7.7% increase in costs is the increase in 1993-94, over 1992-93.
DR LAM KUI-CHUN: Mr President, in the calculation of increase in medical costs by the Government in the last few years, how much does increase in salary in the Hospital Authority or the Department of Health contribute to the total increase and by what annual percentage has salary inflated in the Hospital Authority in the last two years?
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 15 December 1993 1463
SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE: Mr President, I have the information for the increase in costs of the general out-patient clinics and I will provide the information to Dr LAM with regard to the Hospital Authority. The unit cost components for general out patient clinics are: staff salary and staff on-costs make up $111, administrative overheads $18, operational expenses $23. All this adds up to $152. I will provide the separate information with regard to the Hospital Authority service. (Annex I)
DR LAM KUI-CHUN: Mr President, what I want is the increase expressed as annual inflation, not the absolute cost.
SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE: Mr President, as indicated in my main reply, the approach is all the time on a historical basis. It is based on the full cost approach which comprises staff costs, drugs, consumables, overheads and depreciation on equipment and buildings. I do not have the detailed figures to hand. I can supply figures to Dr LAM with regard to the Hospital Authority.
Control of obscene and indecent articles
3. MRS PEGGY LAM asked (in Cantonese): In view of the recent spate of obscene and violence-depicting posters, publications and videotapes in the territory, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) of the number of cases concerning alleged violation of the Control of Obscene and Indecent Articles Ordinance in the past three years; the number of convictions and the penalties imposed;
(b) of the measures adopted by the departments concerned to ensure that persons under the age of 18 do not purchase obscene and indecent articles; and
(c) whether the public would be encouraged to furnish information on alleged violation of the Control of Obscene and Indecent Articles Ordinance; if so, please provide details; if not, the reasons therefor?
SECRETARY FOR RECREATION AND CULTURE (in Cantonese): Mr President, during the three-year period from January 1991 to October 1993, the police, Customs and Excise Department and Television and Entertainment Licensing Authority (TELA) have taken out 988 prosecutions on contraventions of the Control of Obscene and Indecent Articles Ordinance (COIAO). Of these, a total of 806 convictions have been obtained. The penalties imposed ranged from fines of $500 to $60,000 and prison sentences of one to 18 months.
1464 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 15 December 1993
In view of the public's concern in recent months, the Administration has taken a two prong approach to tackle the problem. First, the police and TELA have stepped up enforcement action. As a result, during the period from 1 October to 8 December, the police and TELA have conducted 17 joint operations. The number of suspected obscene articles seized during these operations included 15 000 videotapes, 100 laser discs and 300 copies of printed matter. Moreover, 10 persons will be prosecuted for publishing indecent articles to underage persons.
Secondly, the Administration has taken the following measures to make the public aware of the ordinance regarding publishing and selling of obscene and indecent articles. In the past few months, we have:
(a) issued two circular letters to all newspaper stalls reminding them of the provisions of the COIAO and providing them with a list of comic books and magazines which have been classified as indecent or obscene for their reference;
(b) produced a TV programme entitled Common Sense, which was broadcast in October;
(c) produced an Announcemet of Public Interest which will be broadcast on TV and radio soon;
(d) given press conferences in most cases after major police operations for publicity purposes; and
(e) given numerous press interviews to reinforce our enforcement action by publicity in the media.
In addition, a leaflet is being printed for distribution to schools, so that students can make reference to them.
We hope such action will firstly remind the trade to exercise self-discipline and secondly appeal to teachers and parents to guide and educate young persons to stay away from indecent comic books and magazines.
In our publicity efforts, we have repeatedly encouraged the public to report any alleged violation of the COIAO either to the police or to a hotline set up by TELA. I would like to appeal to the public to make use of the TELA hotline. The number is 594 5836. We will continue to publicize this hotline in the TV and radio APIs and I hope the print media will also help to disseminate this information and appeal to the public to make reports either to the police or to TELA.
MRS PEGGY LAM (in Cantonese): Mr President, many parents have complained to us that there is a proliferation of publications of violent and
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 15 December 1993 1465
indecent articles which one can easily get at newspaper stalls and other outlets. These articles are not in wrappers, and the warnings they bear are very small and inconspicuous. As publication of these violent and indecent articles will have adverse effects on our young people, will consideration be given to amending the Ordinance to provide that these articles must be in proper wrappers, that they will be available only in certain outlets, and that the warning must be up to a certain size and printed prominently?
SECRETARY FOR RECREATION AND CULTURE (in Cantonese): Mr President, at present the Administration has no intention to amend the Ordinance because the law as it stands has already empowered the Obscene Articles Tribunal to require publishers to take specific measures which include wrapping (providing for the use of a tight wrapper if necessary) and appropriate warning on the wrappers. We think that there are already sufficient enabling provisions in the existing Ordinance.
MR ALFRED TSO (in Cantonese): Mr President, objectionable publications and videotapes, as we see it, have been in wide circulation in Hong Kong. We can also see that the standard set by the Administration in this respect is very low, and that it even takes a passive stance. Many members of the public from different districts have made their views known to the police and the TELA, but the feedback and the actions taken were very little. Will the Administration consider deploying more resources and manpower to step up enforcement efforts in this respect so as to protect the morals of our society?
SECRETARY FOR RECREATION AND CULTURE (in Cantonese): Mr President, I have already provided some actual figures in my main reply, which show the Administration has, with limited resources and manpower available, already taken out quite a large number of prosecutions. As regards censorship, it is within the jurisdiction of the Obscene Articles Tribunal which is an independent body comprising, among others, members of the public. I hope that through these censors who are members of the public, the standard acceptable to the general public can be reflected.
MR JAMES TO (in Cantonese): Mr President, I would like to follow up the Secretary's reply to Mrs Peggy LAM's question which says that there is no need for introducing legislative amendments. Does the Secretary know that there is no statutory requirement under the existing legislation for submission of articles for censorship, and that the Obscene Articles Tribunal can require wrapping or removal of undesirable pages only after they have been submitted? Such being the case, the whole process will take two to three months from the date of submission while all such publications may have been sold out in a week or a couple of days. Does the Secretary think that there is a loophole in the existing legislation?
1466 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 15 December 1993
SECRETARY FOR RECREATION AND CULTURE (in Cantonese): Mr President, I do not think that there is any loophole in the existing legislation because our society which cherish freedom of expression do not want to have pre-censorship which requires all publications to be submitted in advance. Should that be the case, I believe it will have a grave impact on freedom of expression in Hong Kong. At present, if a publication put on sale without being submitted for censorship is found to be obscene and indecent, the police and the TELA will take appropriate prosecution action and confiscate the article.
MR FREDERICK FUNG (in Cantonese): Mr President, everyday after work, especially after 1 pm on Saturdays, we can find a lot of film posters on doors of banks and hoardings of construction sites which in our view are quite violent and obscene. May I know how many of the 988 prosecutions mentioned in the Secretary's reply are related to posters of violent and indecent films? Is the figure on the low side? If so, will the Administration step up prosecution actions?
SECRETARY FOR RECREATION AND CULTURE (in Cantonese): Mr President, I do not have the figure at hand. I will give Mr FUNG a written reply in due course. (Annex II)
MR HOWARD YOUNG (in Cantonese): Mr President, will the Administration inform this Council whether the almost one thousand prosecutions in respect of obscene and indecent articles were mainly taken out against newspaper stalls or other outlets (or the sex shops which have drawn wide public concern recently), so that Members of this Council and the Administration can think of the most effective ways to bring them under control?
SECRETARY FOR RECREATION AND CULTURE (in Cantonese): Mr president, the figure includes articles seized from newspaper stalls and alleged obscene and indecent articles found in bookstores and other outlets. In other words, the law enforcement officers will take action against any outlets found selling such articles to the public.
DR TANG SIU-TONG (in Cantonese): Mr President, will the Administration inform this Council of the number of staff in the TELA who are responsible for monitoring and prosecution, and whether it has sufficient manpower?
SECRETARY FOR RECREATION AND CULTURE (in Cantonese): Mr President, at present there are five inspectors in the TELA responsible for inspection and prosecution. As to whether manpower is enough, I believe that
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 15 December 1993 1467
more manpower for enforcement action is always better, but we also have to take into consideration the constraints of resources faced by the Administration.
Hong Kong's future
4. MISS EMILY LAU asked: Is the Government aware that the public reactions of the Chinese Government during the disputes over Hong Kong's political arrangements and other issues in recent years have been perceived by the majority of Hong Kong people as revealing an intransigent and autocratic attitude on the part of the Chinese Government towards Hong Kong's best interests, which has dealt a severe blow to public confidence in Hong Kong's future; and has the Government accordingly conveyed to the British Government that it is now both urgent and essential that the British Government publicly explain to the Hong Kong people how it can feel justified in continuing with its intention to hand them over to the new sovereign regime?
SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS: Mr President, the Joint Declaration, under which Hong Kong will on 1 July 1997 become a Special Administrative Region of the People's Republic of China with a high degree of autonomy, with its capitalist system and way of life preserved, and the basic rights and freedoms of its citizens protected, is the best guarantee there is of the continued prosperity and stability of Hong Kong under Chinese sovereignty. It deserves all our support, and our whole-hearted efforts to implement it fully and faithfully.
The Joint Declaration is a binding international agreement, registered with the United Nations. The British Government is fully committed to it; the Chinese Government have repeatedly stated that they are committed to its full implementation.
The British Government and the Hong Kong Government are, of course, fully aware of the anxieties of the community in these last few years. We believe strongly that the best means of ensuring that Hong Kong can have confidence in its future is to ensure that there remain in place after 1997 the institutions that are necessary to safeguard Hong Kong's way of life. They are:
- a vigorous and accountable executive;
- a credible and broadly based legislature; and
- an independent and impartial judiciary.
Our plans for achieving this are, of course, fully described in the Governor's addresses to this Council in October 1992 and 1993. The Bill that I will be introducing into this Council later today is the first part of our proposed legislative programme aimed at achieving representative institutions which are
1468 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 15 December 1993 credible and broadly based. I hope it will receive the support of Honourable Members.
Mr President, the community should work to build their future under the historic principle of "one country, two systems", rather than shy away from it. As the Governor said to this Council on 2 December 1993, the transfer of sovereignty was always going to be a difficult enterprise. There were bound to be disagreements between Britain and China along the way. But we firmly believe that with goodwill and co-operation from both sides even though we might have differences, and of course with the support of the community, we can together overcome those difficulties.
MISS EMILY LAU (in Cantonese): Mr President, the Secretary has mentioned in his reply that the British Government is fully committed to the Sino-British Joint Declaration and that the Chinese Government has also repeatedly stated its commitment to it. What I would like to ask is: Does the Administration think that the Chinese Government has done or said anything during the talks on constitutional reform package that is contrary to the Joint Declaration? If so, will the Hong Kong Government propose to the British Government to review its commitment to the implementation of the Joint Declaration?
SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS: Mr President, it would be a rather grave charge to lay at anyone's door that the Joint Declaration has not been adhered to and I certainly have no indisputable proof of that.
MR RONALD ARCULLI: Mr President, will the Secretary explain to this Council how the Joint Declaration which he has described as a binding international agreement, registered with the United Nations, can be enforced against the two Governments by the people of Hong Kong?
SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS: Mr President, I think I am entering into international law on which I am not competent.
MR RONALD ARCULLI: Follow-up, Mr President?
PRESIDENT: Yes, Mr ARCULLI.
MR RONALD ARCULLI: Will the Secretary give me a written answer, having consulted his lawyers?
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 15 December 1993 1469 SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS: I will, Mr President. (Annex III)
MR MARTIN LEE: Mr President, will the Administration inform this Council, in relation to the so-called credible and broadly based legislature mentioned in the Secretary's answer, whether the Administration considers the legislature originally proposed by the Governor in his first policy speech to this Council on 7 October 1992 to be such a credible legislature or rather, in comparison with the legislature proposed by the watered down version of the Governor in his second policy speech delivered to this Council on 6 October this year, which is more credible? And which will be presented to this Council?
SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS: Mr President, we have always said that the proposals set out in the Governor's speech on October 1992 are proposals and they represent what the Government believes to be the best proposals. Obviously, as proposals, they are open to debate and these have been debated fully in this Council and in the community. We will definitely take account of the views of Members of this Council and that of the community before deciding what we should introduce into this Council.
MR CHIM PUI-CHUNG (in Cantonese): Mr President, the Secretary has mentioned the Joint Declaration and "one country, two systems" in his reply. If the public's confidence in "one country, two systems", the Sino-British Joint Declaration, and the Basic Law has been weakened, and the Administration does not have sufficient credibility, will it be the British or the Chinese Government that should be held responsible for such a situation before 1997?
PRESIDENT: Do you understand the question, Secretary? It might have suffered in the interpretation.
SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS: Mr President, I think I understand part of it and I shall attempt to answer that part. The Joint Declaration is a solemn agreement entered into by two sovereign powers under their own free will. And the Joint Declaration specifies in one of its provisions that the British shall be responsible for the administration of Hong Kong until 30 June 1997 and the Chinese Government shall give its full co operation. I think that is a very important provision for us to bear in mind in the years ahead. And, therefore, a direct answer to Mr CHIM's question is that both governments owe the people of Hong Kong a smooth transition from now until 1997.
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MR LEE WING-TAT (in Cantonese): Mr President, the Preliminary Working Committee for the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region appointed by the Chinese Government has speeded up its work recently and the functions of some of the working groups under it are to look into policy matters affecting the local community and people's livelihood which are within the jurisdiction of the Hong Kong Government responsible for administering Hong Kong before 1997. From the viewpoint of the Hong Kong Government, are such actions in violation of the provisions of the Joint Declaration that the local policies of Hong Kong fall within the responsibility of the Hong Kong Government before 1997? I hope the Secretary will not evade this question, but provide a simple yes or no answer.
PRESIDENT: Which part of the Secretary's answer do you seek to elucidate with that question, Mr LEE?
MR LEE WING-TAT (in Cantonese): Mr President, the Secretary has mentioned in different parts of his reply that the Chinese Government will fully implement the Joint Declaration. My question is: Judging from the example cited earlier, does the Hong Kong Government consider that the Chinese Government has really implemented the Joint Declaration?
PRESIDENT: Bearing in mind that questions are directed towards eliciting information or seeking action on the part of the Hong Kong Government on public matters for which it is responsible, bearing in mind that context, Secretary, are you able to answer?
SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS: No, Mr President. (Laughter)
DR CONRAD LAM (in Cantonese): Mr President, the Secretary has mentioned several times in his reply the importance of the Joint Declaration, and the public have read time and again from newspapers that one side is accusing the other side for violating or acting in defiance of the spirit of the Joint Declaration. And the public simply do not know which side to believe. May I ask the Secretary if consideration will be given to arranging a debate between the Governor and Mr ZHOU Nan so that the public will know the truth and can tell which side is right and which side is wrong? If not, why not?
SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS: Mr President, it is difficult for me to find an appropriate answer to such a difficult question. I think the fact of the matter is that Hong Kong is a free society with a free press and anybody is free to express his or her views. And I think that is why we are
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hearing lots of voices on these very difficult issues in relation to the transition arrangements. "One country, two systems" is a very historic concept which has not been tried anywhere before. So I do not personally think that a direct debate between the Governor and Mr ZHOU Nan would necessarily satisfy everybody.
MRS SELINA CHOW: Mr President, in the third paragraph of his answer, the Secretary said, and I quote, "the best means of ensuring that Hong Kong can have confidence in its future is to ensure that there remain in place after 1997 the institutions that are necessary to safeguard Hong Kong's way of life." Given the British Government's failure so far to secure Chinese agreement to what the former regards as uncontentious issues, how can that objective in the third paragraph be achieved?
SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS: Mr President, it is our desire that we should achieve agreement with China on all these very difficult issues. And here we have got to balance, on the one hand, the desire for an agreement and, on the other hand, an agreement that is fair, open and acceptable to this community. When it comes to a choice, I know fairly and squarely what this Council wants us to do, namely, that we should introduce into this Council arrangements that are fair, open and acceptable to the people of Hong Kong.
PRESIDENT: Not answered?
MRS SELINA CHOW: Mr President, I do not think the Secretary has in fact answered my question. I asked him how the objectives spelt out in the third paragraph, that is, to keep the institutions in place after 1997, can be achieved.
SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS: Mr President, these institutions are already in existence. And I quote, "a vigorous and accountable executive" — I am accounting for the executive at the moment; "a credible and broadly based legislature" — that is what we are trying to achieve and to that end I shall be introducing legislation later on; "an independent and impartial judiciary" — that we have.
MRS SELINA CHOW: Mr President, may I ask you to direct the Secretary to answer my question please?
PRESIDENT: I have no powers of direction, Mrs CHOW. I can only give you an opportunity to make sure your question has not been overlooked.
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MR JIMMY McGREGOR: Mr President, the Secretary has set out the three institutions necessary to safeguard Hong Kong now and in the future. One of these is a credible and broadly based legislature. I have in mind that Mr TSANG Yok-sing recently said that China will change what it does not like. Will the Government give an assurance that despite mounting pressures upon the Government to further reduce the representativeness of this Council, no constitutional changes will be made which will have this effect, thus protecting the integrity and territorial independence of this Council?
SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS: Mr President, I do not understand the last part of the question, that is, "the territorial integrity of this Council".
PRESIDENT: Can you clarify?
MR JIMMY McGREGOR: I mean, in regard to the territory of Hong Kong, I understand that we are a territory and not a state.
PRESIDENT: Are you able to answer that, Secretary?
SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS: Mr President, I will try but I am not 100% sure if I get the real purport behind that question. I think the point, Mr President, is that we have a legislature now which is composed of partly elected and partly appointed Members and what we are moving towards is to have a legislature composed entirely of Members returned by elections in 1995. And what we are debating is what those arrangements should be that will give us a credible and broadly based legislature. It is difficult to imagine that a credible and broadly based legislature is necessarily a threat to anybody and therefore I do not envisage the scenario that Mr McGREGOR quoted from somebody else.
PRESIDENT: Not answered, Mr McGREGOR?
MR JIMMY McGREGOR: Part of it not answered, Mr President. What I am referring to is the fact that we are all aware that the British Government has already conceded a great deal more than perhaps some of us in this Council would have wished. And what I am concerned about therefore is that in any further negotiations that take place and in response to any further representations made to this Council, there will be further diminution of the representativeness of this Council through the procedures which the British are
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negotiating with China. I am referring specifically to the nine functional constituencies and the Election Committee.
PRESIDENT: Yes, and the question?
MR JIMMY McGREGOR: Mr President, the question is: Will the Government take into account the concern of some Members of this Council that such arrangements made from now on will not further reduce the representativeness of this Council?
SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS: Mr President, I think I can give an assurance that it is our intention that the representativeness of this Council shall not be reduced. And indeed Members do know that whatever agreement that we may have, we will have to come to this Council to get its blessing, so that the agreement can be implemented in time for the 1994-95 elections. Therefore, whatever agreements that we may have which do not meet the Council's concerns on this particular aspect, there is a recourse for Members.
DR PHILIP WONG (in Cantonese): Mr President, it was mentioned in the fourth paragraph of the Secretary's reply that there were bound to be disagreements between Britain and China during the transfer of sovereignty. In order to let the people of Hong Kong and the international community have a clearer picture of what has happened, Mr LU Ping has suggested to disclose the contents of the 17 rounds of talks. What is the stance of the Hong Kong or British Government on this?
SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS: Mr President, this particular question anticipates Question 6. Do you wish me to answer it now or shall I leave it until Question 6?
PRESIDENT: Yes, it is indeed the subject of Question 6. Next question, Question 5.
New Year's Eve celebration
5. DR LAM KUI-CHUN asked (in Cantonese): In view of the large-scale celebration programme to be held on the coming New Year's Eve at the Victoria Park on Hong Kong Island, will the Government inform this Council:
1474 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 15 December 1993
(a) of the estimated number of participants in the celebration programme on that night;
(b) whether it is expected that the activities there will help ease the overcrowding at Lan Kwai Fong as experienced on similar occasions in the past;
(c) what measures will be taken by the police and other departments concerned for crowd control including contingency measures to cope with emergency cases, if any, at the two locations on that night?
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY: Mr President, there will be 50 000 tickets on sale for the New Year's Eve celebration at Victoria Park and, therefore, this is the maximum number of participants.
The activities at Victoria Park are expected to divert people from Lan Kwai Fong. There will also be a Countdown Variety Show that evening in Sha Tin Central Park, which will also divert people from Lan Kwai Fong. In addition, arrangements at Lan Kwai Fong on New Year's Eve will also ensure that there will be no overcrowding and public safety can be maintained. These arrangements were successfully deployed at Lan Kwai Fong during Halloween.
During the event, the organizers will employ security guards for crowd control within the Park. The Civil Aid Services will deploy 140 members, dispersed among the crowd, and liaise closely with the police to ensure crowd safety.
Hoardings will also be set up to control the size of the crowd for the event. These hoardings will be high enough to enclose all performing areas, so that people will not be able to watch the performances from outside the park and, consequently, cause congestion. There will be adequate directional signs and illumination. Sufficient entrance and exit points will be provided to ensure that the crowd enters and disperses orderly and gradually. More exits will be opened at the end of the event to allow speedy dispersal of the crowd.
The police will be responsible for overall safety and crowd control. They will liaise closely with the security staff employed by the organizers and with members of the Civil Aid Services on crowd control. Police Tactical Units, uniformed police officers, traffic police and CID officers will be mobilized and stationed at the park for crowd control, directing traffic and for dealing with emergencies. There will be restrictions on car parking in the vicinity and inside Victoria Park to minimize congestion and to avoid obstruction of emergency vehicles.
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The Transport Department will co-ordinate with public transport operators regarding the overall transport arrangements, in particular the overnight running of services. The Mass Transit Railway may designate special entrances and exits at the Causeway Bay and Tin Hau MTR Stations for this event. Nearby carpark managements will be forewarned of the event. Early announcements through the media will be made regarding the special traffic and transport arrangements for the event.
The Auxiliary Medical Services will provide first-aid services on the spot. First-aid posts will be provided within the park. First-aid patrol teams will ensure that people in need of first-aid are attended to as quickly as possible. An Auxiliary Medical Services ambulance will be on standby in the Hing Fat Street carpark adjacent to Victoria Park. The Auxiliary Medical Services Headquarters in Ho Man Tin will have an Emergency Response Task Force, with two ambulances and a team of doctors and nurses, on standby. Emergency services from nearby fire stations can also be called upon.
The Hospital Authority has a contingency plan for emergency situations and adequate medical staff can be made available once the contingency plan is activated.
As for Lan Kwai Fong, the police will also deploy adequate staff to ensure public safety, although we are not aware of any organized events there.
DR LAM KUI-CHUN (in Cantonese): Mr President, the Secretary says in the second paragraph of his reply that the Administration is making use of other activities to reduce overcrowding in Lan Kwai Fong. But has the Administration taken into consideration that people participating in any two activities may be different, for example, those going to Lan Kwai Fong are Westerners while those at Victoria Park are local youngsters, and therefore instead of diverting people from Lan Kwai Fong, the activities at Victoria Park will create another crowded area?
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY: Mr President, there are two points there. I am not too sure I agree with the premise of the Honourable Member's question. Our experience has shown that there is a mixture in both locations, predominantly young people, and the event at Victoria Park is directed at them. The second point is that, as I mentioned in my main reply, we have already tried, and will implement once again at New Year, arrangements to ensure that there is no overcrowding in Lan Kwai Fong. They were successfully deployed in the past and we have no reason to expect they will not continue to be successful.
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MR MARTIN BARROW: Mr President, does the Government recognize that this type of celebration provides opportunities to promote Hong Kong as an exciting tourism destination and would the Secretary confirm that in ensuring safety standards he will not allow a bureaucratic steeplechase of approval procedures to prevent innovative ideas, such as this plan, from being implemented?
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY: Mr President, yes, I can assure Honourable Members that our licensing procedures are the minimum consistent with public security and safety.
DR LEONG CHE-HUNG: Mr President, now that there will be at least three areas where crowds will gather, could the Secretary assure this Council that in the event of accidents occurring in all three crowded areas there will be contingency arrangements, as far as both hospital and ambulance services are concerned, to cover these three areas, simultaneously?
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY: Mr President, yes, I can assure the Council of that. The main question was directed at the arrangements at Victoria Park, but contingency plans exist for emergencies arising at any locations. And at this time of the year, with the inclination of crowds to gather at certain locations, the authorities are aware and are prepared for contingencies arising out of any emergency from those crowds.
MR HOWARD YOUNG: Mr President, will the Government confirm that some of the more specific recommendations arising out of the lesson learnt from the Lan Kwai Fong incident last year will indeed be implemented at the Victoria Park site, such as one-way traffic flow of pedestrians only, adequate loudhailers for policemen and duty personnel on the spot and also late running of the MTR beyond its normal hours?
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY: Mr President, yes, I can confirm that. The lesson learnt from the tragedy that occurred last year have been taken into account, not just in the event planned for this New Year, but in events that have taken place earlier this year. Loudhailers are used extensively, and specifically in Victoria Park there is a one-way pedestrian flow arrangement that has been introduced, and for that matter it will also be introduced at Lan Kwai Fong to ensure that there is no buildup of crowds. And therefore no situation will arise that might result in an emergency.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 15 December 1993 1477 PRESIDENT: Not answered, Mr YOUNG?
MR HOWARD YOUNG: Mr President, yes, there is one specific point about the late running of the MTR that has not been addressed.
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY: I am sorry, Mr President. I mentioned that point in my main reply and the answer is yes.
A full public account of Sino-British discussions
6. MR ERIC LI asked: In view of the public concern over the impasse in discussions between the British and Chinese Governments on future arrangements for Hong Kong, and in order to present a clear and balanced picture to the people of Hong Kong, will the Administration request the British Government to give a full public account of the 17 rounds of discussions held so far behind closed doors between the British and Chinese Governments?
SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS: Mr President, when the talks on the 1994-95 electoral arrangements started in April, we explained in public the basis for the talks. We also explained that to give the talks the maximum chance to succeed, one of the things we have agreed is that the negotiations would take place in confidence. This is still our position. As Honourable Members know, we remain ready to continue with the talks on the agreed basis, in an attempt to seek agreement on the remaining, more complex issues not covered in the Bill which I shall be introducing into this Council later today. We are waiting for the Chinese side's response to our proposal for dates for the next round. In the circumstances it would not be right to give a public account at this stage of all the discussions.
MR ERIC LI (in Cantonese): Mr President, notwithstanding the objection of the Chinese side who said they would end all talks should the partial Bill on constitutional reform be tabled, the Government still went ahead despite the risk of a breakdown of talks. This is clear indication that the Government did not believe China meant what they said and that they were not afraid of a breakdown of talks. But now the Chinese side indicated clearly that they could give an open account of the talks and even challenged the Governor to do so, and the Government's response this time was different. They worried about a possible breakdown of talks and refused to give a full public account on the pretext that they had to know the Chinese response in the first place. Since the tone of the Government is so different in these two cases, how can the people of Hong Kong be expected to understand the different stances of the Government? Moreover, if this is not the suitable time for the Legislative Council to scrutinize the Bill, when is the right time?
1478 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 15 December 1993
SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS: Mr President, this is not an excuse, this is a practical and pragmatic consideration of the situation we are in at the moment. The reason why we are introducing legislation is because there are certain deadlines to meet, and if we were to give discussions of the more complex issues a chance to continue, we would have to legislate on certain simpler straightforward issues for which there is a consensus within this community. To reveal the contents of talks might probably satisfy the curiosity of the citizens of Hong Kong, but it would definitely mean the end of talks. Mr President, our primary responsibility must be to pursue whatever opportunity for talks that may possibly remain, and I think that remains our priority.
MR ERIC LI (in Cantonese): Mr President, it seems .....
PRESIDENT: Is your question not answered, Mr LI? We have a lot of Members wanting to ask questions.
MR ERIC LI (in Cantonese): Mr President, the part concerning "suitable time" has not been answered.
SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS: Mr President, we certainly have no problem in giving our account of the talks at a suitable time. When I said "suitable time", I mean that if we were to have an agreement, we would definitely explain that agreement to the people of Hong Kong and the discussions that led to that agreement. And if we were to have no agreement, or if the Chinese side decided to walk away from the negotiating table, then again we would obviously have to explain to the people of Hong Kong exactly what had happened.
DR PHILIP WONG (in Cantonese): Mr President, I am pleased to hear the Secretary say that if he thinks there is no hope for further talks with the Chinese side, he will be prepared to give a full account of the 17 rounds of talks to the people of Hong Kong. May I ask the Secretary under what circumstances there will be no hope for talks?
SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS: Mr President, I have in reply to a previous question stated that we have proposed to the Chinese side for an 18th round of talks. Although I have heard and seen in the media responses or purported responses to that diplomatic approach, I can confirm to Members of this Council that we have not received a formal diplomatic response to that particular proposal.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 15 December 1993 1479
MRS ELSIE TU: Mr President, would the Secretary agree that, if Members of this Council are to discuss the Bill, they would need the information to make it possible to discuss the Bill? And why does he call it curiosity? Is it curiosity to want to know the facts which we have to discuss?
SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS: Mr President, the Governor gave a very full account on 2 December to this Council and answered a number of questions from Members as to why we have to introduce legislation to this Council to enable certain arrangements to be put in place. The Governor has given as much information as necessary without breaching the confidentiality of the talks and I think there is not much I can add at this stage.
MR ALLEN LEE: Mr President, Director LU Ping has openly challenged the Governor to reveal the contents of the talks. Now that the Bill is going to be presented to this Council, as Mrs TU said, we have got to have some basis on which to scrutinize the Bill. Why is the Government still reluctant and using confidentiality as a shield in not taking up that challenge?
SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS: Mr President, the governing of Hong Kong is a serious business. The Government is not responding to challenges of that nature.
DR YEUNG SUM (in Cantonese): Mr President, just now the Secretary explained that both sides had agreed that the negotiations would take place in confidence, and that in order to keep the talks going, the Government would not disclose the contents of the talks. But I think the Administration cannot say that any more because the Bill will receive its First and Second Readings later today. And that means the end of talks as China had indicated time and again that it would end all talks if the Bill was introduced to the Legislative Council, be it a partial or a full Bill. As there will be no more talks, does the Government still need to observe the confidentiality rule as this will keep the people of Hong Kong in the dark?
SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS: Mr President, I do not wish to give the impression that we have anything to hide or any reluctance to give our account of the talks. What I am saying is — and I shall repeat what I have said in reply to one supplementary question — that if the talks are irrevocably and formally terminated, then this Government will have to explain to the people of Hong Kong what happened.
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MR CHEUNG MAN-KWONG (in Cantonese): Mr President, by "termination of talks", does the Secretary mean a joint declaration by both the British and Chinese sides, or just a unilateral announcement that all talks will come to an end? I said that because Chinese officials had said on many occasions that once the Hong Kong Government introduced the Bill to the Legislative Council, even if it was a partial Bill, it would mean the end of talks. At this time, what is the point of "waiting for the next round of talks"? Will the Administration disclose the contents of the 17 rounds of talks after the partial Bill has been tabled today as this not only will satisfy the curiosity of the people of Hong Kong, but also will help to explain the process and the facts of the talks as well as those issues that the two sides disagreed?
SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS: Mr President, we are not waiting for Godot. We have in fact put to the Chinese side, through diplomatic channels, a proposal for an 18th round of talks. We will await a reply through that channel.
MR STEVEN POON (in Cantonese): Mr President, the Secretary uses the phrase "our account" (which means the records of our meetings) repeatedly in his reply. Is the Administration suggesting that the records of meetings kept by the two sides are quite different?
PRESIDENT: Are you able to answer that, Secretary?
SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS: Mr President, I was not implying anything. What I was saying was no more than a plain statement of fact. In any diplomatic negotiations there are no agreed records. Each side take their own records.
MR ALFRED TSO (in Cantonese): Mr President, I agree that an agreement reached between the two sides is of vital importance to Hong Kong. And I appreciate the Secretary explained to us that the Sino-British talks were given pragmatic consideration. With regard to the answers given by the Secretary a while ago, does he have a tacit understanding with Mr PATTEN on what he would say so that they would have a uniform stand on this?
PRESIDENT: Would you rephrase that question?
MR ALFRED TSO (in Cantonese): Mr President, the question I put to the Secretary is whether his views as we have heard represent the stand and views of our Governor, Mr PATTEN?
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 15 December 1993 1481
SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS: Mr President, we pride ourselves on being a vigorous executive-led government and an executive-led government has one man in charge and I think the executive works to him.
MR WONG WAI-YIN (in Cantonese): Mr President, when our Governor Mr PATTEN said he would consider disclosing the details of the 17 rounds of talks, Mr LU Ping indicated that neither would he object to disclosing them. But now the Secretary says that this is not the suitable time to disclose the details of the talks. If Mr LU Ping is willing to disclose their account of the 17 rounds of talks, will the Hong Kong Government have any objection?
SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS: Mr President, I am sure if the Chinese side were to make a formal approach to the British side that would be dealt with through the diplomatic channel.
MR PETER WONG: Mr President, the Secretary insists that it would not be right to give a public account at this stage of the discussions. Can the Secretary now assure this Council that the British side will not be responsible for any leaks?
SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS: Mr President, as the Honourable Member will know, an open government which is accountable cannot guarantee that there are no leaks and I think I am stating a fact.
MR FRED LI (in Cantonese): Mr President, since the Governor's announcement in this Council on 2 December of the tabling of the first part of the Bill, the British and Chinese sides have been bombarding each other with such accusations as "not honouring the agreements", "reneging on one's words" as well as "breaking the talks". As the people of Hong Kong and Members of the Legislative Council, we do not know what has happened.
Therefore, should it be possible for the 18th round of talks to take place, will the Government give their account of the talks so that the people of Hong Kong will know what happened during the 15th, 16th and 17th rounds of talks?
SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS: Mr President, I do not think that I can add to what I have said in reply to previous supplementaries, mainly because the Governor has given a full account on 2 December in this Council as to why we are introducing partial legislation to this Council on the 1994-95 electoral arrangements. And I think frankly that is as far as I can go.
1482 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 15 December 1993 Written answers to questions
Wearing of seat belts
7. MR SIMON IP asked: Current regulations require front seat passengers of various classes of motor vehicles to wear seat belts, except for front middle seat passengers. Will the Government advise this Council:
(a) whether consideration has been given to prohibiting passengers from occupying the front middle seats of automobiles, particularly taxis;
(b) whether there are proposals to increase penalties for failing to wear seat belts; and
(c) whether, given the dangers of using lap belts, the Government may consider amending the Road Traffic (Safety Equipment) Regulations to require the use of three-point seat belts in the back seats of automobiles?
SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT: Mr President,
(a) Current legislation does not prohibit any passenger from occupying the middle front seat nor does it require the provision of seat belts for middle front seats in vehicles. However it is an offence under existing law to allow persons under the age of 15 to travel unrestrained in the middle front seat.
We are now taking a fresh look at this issue. Both safety and practical considerations will be taken into account. For example, there are counter arguments as to whether there should be a strict and total ban on passengers occupying the middle front seat or whether such occupancy should be permitted if some form of seat belt is provided.
(b) The Administration's proposals to raise the levels of fines for all fixed penalty offences were discussed with the Legislative Council's Transport Panel on 9 December 1993. We are seeking to raise the penalty for driving without wearing a seat belt from $200 to $320 and that for a front seat passenger not wearing a seat belt from $140 to $230. Our aim is that these increases should take effect by the mid-1994.
(c) The compulsory wearing of seat belts has to be phased for practical reasons given the lead time required for installation and to allow motorists and passengers to adjust to such requirements. This, indeed, has been the worldwide practice.
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The next step is to require the fitting and wearing of rear seat belts. To achieve this we plan to introduce legislative amendments by the end of next year. Three point belts will be required for the rear outboard seats but for the middle rear seats, lap belts may well have to be accepted as an alternative where anchor points are not available for three point seat belts. This would follow the practice in other countries which have a statutory requirement for rear seat belts.
Triad activities
8. MR JIMMY McGREGOR asked: Will the Government inform this Council:
(a) whether a detailed report will be provided to this Council on the present activity of triad societies, the scale of their operations and their estimated benefits drawn from illegal activities;
(b) whether the scale of their operations is increasing; and
(c) what measures have been or are being taken to combat triad influence and the effectiveness of these measures?
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY: Mr President, the Police Force is preparing an updated report on triad situation in Hong Kong for consideration by the Fight Crime Committee at its next meeting in February 1994. A copy of the report will be provided to the Council.
The Commissioner of Police has advised that, while the triad situation is contained, the level of sophistication of some triad activities is increasing, as is the scale of some operations.
The Police Force has a dedicated Crime and Triad Group to co-ordinate the strategy, analyse intelligence and plan and mount operations against triads and organized crime groups. The police have also deployed considerable resources at regional and district levels to fight triads: the Intelligence and Antitriad units gather evidence and mount operation; the uniformed police officers on the beat augment such operations; the Police Public Relations Bureau reinforce anti-triad publicity; and the Crime Prevention Bureau liaise with shops and businesses to encourage them to report triad activities. Recently, the police have established a special team to investigate a series of incidents of murder, serious assault, intimidation and criminal damage involving people suspected to be triad members.
1484 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 15 December 1993 "Unsafe" condoms
9. DR LEONG CHE-HUNG asked: In the light of the Consumer Council's recent findings that most of the condoms currently on sale in Hong Kong are of poor quality, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) whether it will request the suppliers concerned to recall from the market immediately all the condoms falling below international safety standards, and prohibit the import and sale of such products in the future;
(b) whether the quality, labelling and sale of condoms, imported and locally made, are governed by existing laws; and
(c) if not, whether and when the Government will introduce legislation to ban the sale of "unsafe" condoms?
SECRETARY FOR TRADE AND INDUSTRY: Mr President,
(a) There are no existing laws which empower the Government to ask the suppliers concerned to recall from the market any condom falling below international safety standards, or prohibit the import and sale of such products.
(b) The quality, labelling and sale of condoms, either imported or locally made, are not governed by existing laws.
(c) The Government introduced the Consumer Goods Safety Bill into the Legislative Council on 8 December 1993. Condoms fall within the definition of "consumer goods" under the Bill.
Under clauses 8 and 9 of the Bill, the Commissioner of Customs and Excise will be empowered to issue safety control notices to suppliers to prohibit them from supplying unsafe consumer goods and to require immediate withdrawal from the market of unsafe consumer goods which are believed to pose a significant risk of causing serious injury. Also, under clause 30(1)(b), the Secretary for Trade and Industry will be empowered to make regulations to prohibit the supply, manufacture in Hong Kong, or importation into Hong Kong, of specified consumer goods or class of consumer goods. These powers could be invoked to prevent the sale of condoms should they be considered to be unsafe and pose a significant risk of causing serious injury.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 15 December 1993 1485 Hong Kong dollars circulating outside the territory
10. DR DAVID LI asked: Will the Administration inform this Council of the amount of Hong Kong dollars circulating outside the territory? Will these funds have any impact on the local monetary and banking system?
SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES: Mr President, while there is a substantial pool of Hong Kong dollar banknotes circulating outside the territory, principally in southern China and Macau, there are no official statistics on the actual size of the pool. Various estimates have been put forward and they range from 15% to 30% of the total amount of currency in circulation, that is, between $10 billion to $20 billion out of a total of $69 billion.
The circulation of Hong Kong dollar banknotes outside Hong Kong does not pose a problem to our monetary system. The issue of banknotes is fully backed by US dollars placed with the Exchange Fund. Even in the highly unlikely event that a large amount of banknotes is returned to Hong Kong, the Exchange Fund would not have any problem in coming up with the US dollars for redeeming the banknotes.
In addition to banknotes, there is a substantial amount of offshore Hong Kong dollar deposits, mainly held by mainland enterprises or individuals and placed with banks in China. These deposits are channelled back to Hong Kong in the form of interbank deposits and shown in the monetary statistics as "liabilities to banks abroad". At end-September 1993, the banking sector's gross Hong Kong dollar liabilities to banks in China amounted to $81 billion, being 60% of the total Hong Kong dollar liabilities to banks abroad. The net amount of Hong Kong dollar liabilities to banks in China amounted to $44 billion as at the end of September 1993.
While a sudden and substantial movement of these Hong Kong dollar holdings could have an impact on the Hong Kong dollar exchange rate and the liquidity position of individual banks in Hong Kong, this is unlikely to be significant. The Hong Kong Monetary Authority keeps a close watch on the change in these offshore deposits, including liaising with the People's Bank of China and conducting surveys for this purpose.
Auto-toll scheme
11. MR HOWARD YOUNG asked: Will the Government inform this Council of the number of vehicles equipped with an electronic device for auto-toll use through the Cross Harbour and Aberdeen Tunnels, and whether there are plans to extend the auto-toll scheme to other toll tunnels?
1486 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 15 December 1993
SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT: Mr President, the auto-toll system was introduced in the Aberdeen Tunnel on a trial basis in mid-April 1992. The number of vehicles issued with auto-passes during this experimental period was limited to 3 000.
This ceiling was lifted when the auto-toll system was introduced in the Cross Harbour Tunnel on 1 August this year. Auto-passes are now available on application. To date, 22 090 electronic tags have been issued by the Autopass Company Limited (monthly figures annexed). The vehicles so equipped can use the auto-toll lanes at both the Cross Harbour and Aberdeen Tunnels.
The auto-toll system is a private sector initiative. It is for the companies themselves to decide whether to introduce auto-toll systems for their tunnels. They then need to seek the approval of the Commissioner for Transport.
I understand that the Tate's Cairn Tunnel Company Limited is considering the feasibility of adopting auto-toll but has not, as yet, finalized their plans.
Annex
Issue of auto-toll tags for use at
the Cross Harbour Tunnel and the Aberdeen Tunnel
Date No. of tags issued
31.8.93 9 611
30.9.93 16 069
31.10.93 17 982
30.11.93 20 770
13.12.93 22 090
Promotion of public awareness on the growing importance of service trade
12. DR HUANG CHEN-YA asked (in Chinese): In view of the growing importance of service trade in our economy, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) whether statistics on service trade will be collected and published in greater detail to promote public awareness in this respect;
(b) if so, what specific plan is in hand; and
(c) if not, what the reasons are?
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 15 December 1993 1487 SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES: Mr President,
(a) The Census and Statistics Department has been collecting detailed data on the service sectors as part of an on-going programme of annual economic surveys. These surveys cover individual service sectors, including distribution, transport, communication, banking and business services. Detailed results are published in the relevant survey reports.
In addition, monthly and quarterly surveys are conducted to collect short-term data on the retailing and restaurant sectors.
Statistics on trade in services are also collected and compiled in estimating the Gross Domestic Product (GDP). These are published, by type of services, in the GDP reports.
(b) To provide prompt indicators of the current performance of the various service sectors, the Census and Statistics Department has launched a new quarterly survey of service industries in May 1993. Results of the survey will be published at quarterly intervals starting from mid 1994, when the series of the statistics is sufficiently long to allow inter-period comparisons and the computation of growth rates. The response rate and quality of the data collected so far have been satisfactory.
Litigation cases concerning building management disputes
13. MR FREDERICK FUNG asked (in Chinese): Will the Government inform this Council whether it is aware of the respective numbers of litigation cases concerning building management disputes in the past three years, in which chairpersons of the owners' corporations were involved as plaintiffs or defendants; the nature of these cases in general and the respective numbers of successful cases with these chairpersons as plaintiffs or defendants?
SECRETARY FOR HOME AFFAIRS: Mr President, the short answer is no because the Judiciary does not keep statistics down to this detailed level. For Members' information, case statistics in respect of the District Courts by categories of jurisdiction for the year 1992 are provided at Annex A; whilst the statistics in respect of the Small Claims Tribunal are at Annex B. We have been advised by the Judiciary that the majority of the building management litigation cases of the type mentioned in the question probably fall within the "Civil Jurisdiction" category of the District Courts statistics and the Small Claims Tribunal statistics. A total of 34 927 actions and 38 930 cases were instituted respectively in 1992.
1488 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 15 December 1993
The Judiciary has also advised that it is planning to install a computerized case record system, the implementation of which will facilitate the Judiciary in the compilation of more detailed statistics in future.
Annex A
CASES IN THE DISTRICT COURT
1992
Civil Jurisdiction:
(a) Actions instituted 34 927 (b) Miscellaneous Proceedings 1 428
(c) Tenancy Tribunal Appeals -
(d) Stamp (Ordinance) Appeals 37 (e) Labour Tribunal Appeals -
(f) Landlord and Tenant Appeals -
Distress for rent:
Distraints issued 4 381
Employee's Compensation:
Application filed 693
Criminal Jurisdiction:
(a) Cases filed 1 317 (b) Persons indicted 2 193
(c) Persons convicted 1 187 (d) Persons awaiting trial 623
(e) Persons discharged 383
Divorce Jurisdiction:
(a) Cases filed 8 067 (b) Decree Absolute granted 5 650
Adoptions:
(a) Applications filed 319
(b) Adoption orders made 350
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 15 December 1993 1489 Annex B
CASES IN THE SMALL CLAIMS TRIBUNAL
1992
No. of cases filed 38 930
Private organizations with established provident fund schemes
14. MR TIK CHI-YUEN asked (in Chinese): According to data published by the Government, there are at present about 13 800 private organizations in Hong Kong with established provident fund schemes. Will the Government provide this Council with a breakdown of the types of business of these organizations, together with the respective numbers of employees covered by the schemes and the accumulated total of the contributions by employees?
SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES: Mr President, as the Occupational Retirement Schemes Ordinance, which regulates all schemes in Hong Kong, commenced only in October this year, the Registrar of Occupational Retirement Schemes does not yet have a full record of schemes operating here. More information on the operation of retirement schemes is expected in 1995, on expiry of the two-year period, for registration of existing schemes.
The figure of 13 800 schemes quoted by the Honourable TIK Chi-yuen was probably based on the record maintained by the Commissioner of Inland Revenue on schemes approved for tax purposes under the Inland Revenue Ordinance. According to the Commissioner, this number has grown from 13 800 in June to 14 465 as at the end of November this year. Analysis of the types of business operating these schemes is however not possible on the basis of the limited information available to the Commissioner.
A survey by the Census and Statistics Department in 1991 indicated that about 22 000 businesses were providing some form of retirement protection (either a provident fund or pension fund) to their employees. A breakdown of the schemes by industry sector is attached.
The breakdown indicates that the largest number of retirement schemes (10 343) was in the "wholesale/retail, import/export trades, restaurants and hotels" sector. This sector also has the largest number of employees covered by retirement schemes.
The highest proportion of establishments providing some form of retirement scheme to their employees was in "financing, insurance, real estate and business services" sector as indicated in the breakdown.
1490 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 15 December 1993
Our latest estimate is that about 30% or 850 000 members of the working population (excluding the Civil Service) is covered by some form of retirement scheme.
We do not have statistics of accumulated contributions by employees. However, according to private sector research, estimated retirement funds in the market are between HK$80 billion and $100 billion, projected to increase at a rate of about HK$20 billion a year.
Annex
(a) (b) (c) (d)
Sector
Number of establishments with a
retirement
scheme
(a) as % of establishments with
employees
Number of employees covered by a retirement scheme
% of
employees covered by a retirement scheme
Wholesale/retail, import/export
trades, restaurants and hotels
Financing,
insurance, real estate and business services
Community, social and personal
services
10 343 12.8 195 781 29.7 3 962 28.2 124 727 60 3 476 22.5 120 261 55.3
Manufacturing 277 8.4 120 009 19.2
Transport, storage and
communication
809 17.0 99 462 69.2
Construction 699 9.8 18 529 23.8
Electricity and gas
6 27.3 11 259 96.4 -------- ------- ---------- -------
Total: 22 074 N.A. 690 028 N.A. ===== ==== ====== ====
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 15 December 1993 1491 Notices of recovery of possession issued by private landowners
15. MR WONG WAI-YIN asked (in Chinese): Recently, a number of the land users in the New Territories have received notices from persons who claim to be the landowners for recovery of possession of the land concerned. Will the Government inform this Council:
(a) whether it is aware of the number of land users who have received such notices and that some of them are holders of Crown Land Licences; if so, the reasons for the Crown Land Licence Holders receiving notices of recovery of possession from private landowners; and
(b) what measures are in place to assist those affected?
SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS: Mr President, the Government is aware that the occupiers of some pieces of land in the New Territories have received notices, apparently from those claiming to be the owners, seeking to recover possession of the land. It appears that these notices may have been sent because under the Limitation Ordinance (Cap 347) a person who occupies land without the permission or knowledge of the owner for a period of 20 years (or 12 years if the occupation began after 1 July 1991) may have a claim of "adverse possession" against the owner. In other words, the owner may not be able to recover possession of his land.
These cases may have arisen now because the majority of New Territories leases, originally granted for a standard term of 75 years from 1898 with a right of renewal for 24 years up to 1997, were renewed by the New Territories (Renewable Crown Leases) Ordinance (Cap 152) in 1969 with effect from 1973 and the period of 20 years from that renewal date is now running out. (The leases were renewed by legislation because it would have been administratively impossible to deal with them all individually.) A court case in late 1992 drew attention to the position.
This is essentially a private matter between the landowners and the occupiers. We do not know how many such cases there are or the details of the specific pieces of land except where the people affected have sought assistance.
In a few cases, it transpires that occupiers have been issued Crown Land Licences when they are in fact occupying private land. This has arisen largely because of the inaccuracy of the original land surveys conducted in the early 1900s. Such licences, which were issued in the past to regularize existing occupation of land, are null and void. Whenever such cases come to light, the Government will cancel the licences and refund all fees paid in respect of them.
As regards assistance to those affected, the Government would not normally intervene in private matters between landowners and occupiers,
1492 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 15 December 1993
especially where cases may eventually go before the courts. However, local District Lands Offices will assist occupiers or owners in clarifying the status of land, where this is sought and as far as is possible in the particular circumstances.
British National (Overseas) passports
16. MR HENRY TANG asked: Since 15% of those who are eligible have not applied for registration for British National (Overseas) passports by the cut-off date for Phase I, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) whether the number of eligible residents who have not applied is greater than expected; if so, what are the possible causes;
(b) whether the maximum number of potential appeal cases has been assessed against the capacity of the presently constituted BN(O) Late Registration Appeals Advisory Committee to handle such cases; if so, what is the result of the assessment; and
(c) whether measures will be taken to encourage eligible residents to apply for registration according to schedule?
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY: Mr President,
(a) It is not compulsory for BDTCs to apply for BN(O) passports; application is entirely voluntary. Therefore, we do not have a specific target for the number of applicants;
(b) The Director of Immigration will consider sympathetically and with flexibility all late applications. We do not think that the number of appeals will be too large for the BN(O) Late Registration Appeals Advisory Committee to handle. Early indications are that the number of late applications is likely to be very small;
(c) The BN(O) phased registration programme is publicized in various ways locally and overseas to ensure that those who wish to register as BN(O)s will do it in time. We will continue the publicity programme and monitor its effectiveness closely, enhancing its intensity if necessary.
The Medium Range Forecast for the upcoming Budget
17. MR PETER WONG asked: Will the Administration inform this Council how it will ensure that the Medium Range Forecast for the upcoming Budget will produce realistic forecasts of revenue and that the forecast will be presented
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 15 December 1993 1493 in such a manner as to give clear and sufficient information for monitoring purposes?
SECRETARY FOR THE TREASURY: Mr President, the Medium Range Forecast (MRF) is a forecast of the Government's revenue and expenditure covering a period of five years: the current year, the forthcoming Estimates year and a further three years.
Like most forecasts, it is based on an analysis of what has happened in previous years, current and up-to-date data of the present position and a number of key assumptions as to future events, such as economic growth and inflation trends. In compiling the MRF for the upcoming Budget, therefore, we shall pay full attention to the trends of key indicators to date, the latest revenue and expenditure position and the realism of the assumptions on which the projections are based having regard to current and anticipated circumstances. Despite these efforts, the final out-turn however may still be different from the forecast because of changes in the underlying factors. For example, economic growth and property and stock market activities may be higher or lower than expected and affect the revenue out-turn to a significant degree. Every effort will be made to review and update the basis on which the MRF is made to ensure that the forecast of both revenue and expenditure is as realistic as possible.
The format of the forecast was the subject of a number of comments by Members in the 1993 Budget debate. Following up the undertaking given by the Financial Secretary at that time, we have consulted some Members on how best the format of the MRF could be revised to present a clearer and more informative picture of the Government's finances. Taking into account the helpful advice provided by those Members, we are now finalizing the new format of the MRF. The new format will be used in presenting the MRF in the upcoming Budget.
Drug trafficking activities in the Pillar Point Vietnamese Refugee Centre
18. DR TANG SIU-TONG asked (in Chinese): In view of the cracking down of drug trafficking activities in the Pillar Point Vietnamese Refugee Centre in Tuen Mun by the police in early November this year, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) whether drug trafficking activities have been detected in any other refugee centres apart from the Pillar Point Vietnamese Centre in Tuen Mun; and
(b) how departments concerned are going to prevent these refugee centres from turning into drug trafficking centres?
1494 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 15 December 1993
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY: Mr President, apart from the Pillar Point Vietnamese Refugee Centre, the only other refugee centre in Hong Kong is the New Horizons Departure Centre, a short-term facility which temporarily houses refugees being resettled or transferred to the Philippines. There is no evidence of drug trafficking at this centre.
The vast majority of Vietnamese in Hong Kong are in detention centres awaiting status determination or repatriation to Vietnam. It is an offence under the detention centre rules to introduce, supply or possess unauthorized articles, which include drugs. Access to detention centres is restricted and visits to camps are closely monitored; all incoming articles and individuals are subject to checking. In addition, dormitory searches are carried out from time to time to ensure that no unauthorized articles are kept in the camps. Vietnamese migrants suspected to be involved in drug abuse or trafficking will be investigated and referred to the police if there is substantiated evidence. Suspects may also be transferred to other camps for management observation.
Drug trafficking in detention centres is minimal. In 1992, there were only four cases of drug seizure, resulting in four Vietnamese migrants being charged and convicted of simple possession of dangerous drugs. In 1993, there have been no seizures and no Vietnamese migrants charged with drug-related offences.
Transfer of duties of the Special Branch to the Independent Commission Against Corruption
19. MR ERIC LI asked (in Chinese): The Government is planning to transfer some of the duties of the Special Branch of the Police Force to the Independent Commission Against Corruption (ICAC). Given that ICAC is directly responsible to the Governor only and has a greater power of investigation and enforcement than the police by statute, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) whether the transfer implies that the future investigation unit will have a greater power of investigation and enforcement;
(b) of the specific scope of the transferred duties, and the manpower of ICAC involved in the work; and
(c) how it would ensure that the funds allocated to ICAC to combat corruption will not be used for political investigation through internal transfer in the absence of external monitoring?
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 15 December 1993 1495 SECRETARY FOR SECURITY: Mr President,
(a) The new unit will have the same responsibilities as the existing Special Branch unit; neither have investigative nor enforcement powers.
(b) The duties of the new unit will consist of record checks and interviews to verify information provided by civil servants being checked. It is expected that the new unit will have the same number of staff as the existing Special Branch unit, a total of 10 staff, including clerical support.
(c) The new unit will not carry out political investigations. The Commissioner of the Independent Commission Against Corruption will ensure that proper funding for the unit is sought by means of the normal process of annual government estimates. He will also ensure that normal budgetary controls on expenditure do not allow funds allocated to other functions of the Commission to be used for the new unit.
Letters A and B
20. MR CHIM PUI-CHUNG asked (in Chinese): Will the Government inform this Council:
(a) of the area of land covered by all unexecuted Letters A and B at present;
(b) whether there is any plan to redeem all the issued Letters A and B before 1997; and
(c) whether the policy on Letters A and B has been regularly reviewed to avoid monopoly by major consortia and unfairness towards the general public?
SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS: Mr President,
(a) On 1 October 1993 the amount of land exchange entitlements yet to be redeemed was 181 552 sq ft of building land and 4 866 739 sq ft of agricultural land. 2.3 million sq ft of this amount were committed to be redeemed in the course of the 1992-93 Land Sales Programme but have yet to be formally surrendered. This is a considerable reduction from the total of 37 million sq ft which were outstanding in 1984.
1496 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 15 December 1993
(b) Outstanding land exchange entitlements will continue to be redeemed through the Lands Sales Programme and the great majority known to be in the hands of developers should be redeemed by 1997. It is likely that an unknown quantity of land exchange entitlements will not be offered for redemption because the owners have died or emigrated or simply do not realize their value. It may not be possible to achieve total redemption therefore.
(c) The policy on land exchange entitlements was last reviewed in 1991 and a further review is now underway.
Statement
Retirement protection
SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER: Mr President, when I spoke about retirement protection during the motion debate in this Council on 3 February this year, I undertook to give careful consideration to all the views expressed, both within and outside this Council, before we came to a conclusion on the way forward. In his policy address this October, the Governor undertook to give a clear lead on the way forward before the end of this year. This afternoon, I shall honour both commitments.
During the past 10 months, the Government has analysed all the views which have been suggested by Members of this Council and the wider community. There were 176 written submissions made in response to the consultation paper A Community-wide Retirement Protection System. All of these have been taken into account in our work. We have been left in no doubt that this community feels deeply about the need to ensure that the retired and the elderly have a secure and adequate income. The only real question for the Administration during the last 10 months has been how to achieve this goal in a way that is most acceptable to the community, while avoiding the pitfalls which so many other developed communities have experienced.
The community's views on the way forward can be broadly categorized into four options:
- first, maintain the present voluntary approach to retirement protection;
- second, adopt the consultation paper's proposal for a decentralized, employment related mandatory Retirement Protection Scheme (RPS), but with sufficient guarantees against losses;
- third, establish a centralized mandatory scheme, better known as a Central Provident Fund (CPF); and
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 15 December 1993 1497
- fourth, go for an old-age pension scheme (OPS) that would provide for old-age income for the bulk of the population.
Let me start with the current situation. We continue to believe firmly that no one, certainly not the Government, can be a better judge than individuals on the most appropriate form of savings compatible with their own career plans and retirement needs. Advocates of compulsory savings often ignore one important fact: it is not the way of Hong Kong people to be directed on how, when, where or how much to save and invest. The freedom to manage one's own financial and economic affairs is a fundamental part of Hong Kong's way of life. We must not violate this key principle.
We have concluded that, whatever we do by way of additional protection to those who may remain uncovered by voluntary schemes, the voluntary approach must continue to have an important part to play in providing for retirement income for those who choose to save for themselves. The Government shall therefore continue to promote voluntary schemes vigorously, with small establishments as our key target.
Market forces are already working well here. Hong Kong has one of the highest savings rates in the world. The number of voluntary retirement schemes has continued to grow. Already 850 000 employees, some 30% of the workforce, are protected by voluntary schemes. We are confident that the market for retirement schemes is now mature enough to cater for a wide variety of needs, including the special needs of small establishments. There is no reason why market forces should not continue to expand the coverage of voluntary schemes to protect an even bigger share of the workforce.
Let me now turn to the consultation paper and our proposal for an RPS. I think it is fair to say that this did not receive widespread support. There were, broadly speaking, three major criticisms:
- First, without a government guarantee, or some form of insurance or other protection, it would be unfair to force the public to entrust their savings to private investment agencies.
- Second, the proposed system would be very complicated, expensive and difficult to administer.
- Third, for a long time to come, the bulk of the population would not have any meaningful retirement protection. An RPS would not cover those outside the workforce, including those who have already retired. Furthermore, those currently in the latter half of their working life would not have sufficient time to accumulate meaningful benefits.
These were serious criticisms indeed, and they demonstrated the value of our comprehensive consultation exercies. Our own internal review, together
1498 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 15 December 1993
with the technical advice from our consultants, convinced us that these criticisms were valid, and that these problems were indeed more severe than was originally believed:
- First, given the foreseeable market conditions in Hong Kong, an RPS would have to be invested in stocks and shares to yield meaningful benefits. Such investments involve the risk of losses, for which there is no viable insurance cover other than a government guarantee. But it would not be fair to ask taxpayers to underwrite such losses.
- Second, an RPS would impose a heavy administrative burden on employers and employees, without the guarantee of commensurate benefits.
- Third, an RPS would require huge bureaucracies to authorize, vet, regulate, and to settle disputes arising from the large number of private schemes.
We have therefore concluded that an RPS is not an option that we should recommend.
Let me now turn to the CPF. Many critics of the consultation paper have proposed a CPF. This Council has endorsed such a proposal although for more than two decades the Government has consistently advised the community against adopting a CPF. Nevertheless, given the call by so many Members in this Council and so many groups in the community, we have re-examined the CPF option. At the end of this latest review, let me inform this Council in all sincerity that the Governemnt remains convinced that a CPF is not the right way forward for Hong Kong. It simply would not meet the community's requirement. Let me explain why.
It is no coincidence that very few countries operate a CPF as a means of retirement protection. Where a CPF has been set up, the primary purpose has often been to provide a cheap and stable source of finance for social and infrastructural projects, especially at the early stage of economic development. Hong Kong has long since moved beyond that stage of economic development.
A CPF would provide a certain level of retirement benefits. However, it is neither an efficient nor an effective means of retirement protection. It has significant defects.
- First, investment returns are typically far from satisfactory. This is not surprising given that central fund managers inevitably and understandably choose to play safe. Poor investment returns tend to drive up contribution rates elsewhere.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 15 December 1993 1499
- Second, a CPF needs decades to mature. Its final yield is highly sensitive to even very minor variations in average returns. If an RPS has difficulty in yielding a reasonable rate of return, a CPF must almost certainly do worse.
- Third, if a CPF loses money, taxpayers would be exposed to direct pressure to make up the losses.
- Fourth, as with an RPS, a CPF imposes daunting administrative burdens on the community but does not offer a satisfactory solution to the problem of financial provision for old age.
- Finally, and worst of all, contributors would not have adequate retirement protection for at least 30 to 40 years.
To put it simply, neither an RPS nor a CPF is capable of meeting the immediate, as well as the long-term needs of the retired, the elderly and the low-income earners in our community. In addition, both would impose heavy administrative burdens, produce uncertain returns and require underwriting by the taxpayer. But, worst of all, both would leave the bulk of the community uncovered for another 30 years or more.
The Administration has concluded that since neither an RPS nor a CPF is the right way forward, and since there is a growing community sentiment that we should do more to provide for the financial security of today's and tomorrow's elderly, we have examined the option of a compulsory old-age pension scheme, as proposed by many groups in their response to the public consultation exercise.
Such schemes are common elsewhere, especially in developed economies. The approach to an OPS for Hong Kong is usually put in the following terms: it would be payable to all eligible senior citizens. A commonly suggested level of benefits is 30% of the median wage, which amounts to about $2,100 at present.
An OPS offers a better way forward than either an RPS or a CPF for the following reasons:
- First, it would protect the bulk of the population. Low-income earners, retirees, housewives, and those outside the workforce would also be covered.
- Second, it would provide immediate benefits once it is implemented, without having to wait 30 or 40 years.
- Third, it would guarantee a minimum financial provision which could be pegged to inflation or to the average wage; and
1500 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 15 December 1993
- Fourth, the rates of contribution for both employers and employees are likely to be lower than the contributions required for an RPS or CPF.
The cost of such a scheme would be about $13 billion per annum in the first year of operation. Many groups have suggested that the OPS should be funded through contributions, and that these contributions should be compulsory, to be shared between employers and employees, with or without government contributions.
Despite the obvious advantages of an OPS, there are potential problems, and we must learn from experiences of others.
- First, we would have to set levels of contributions and benefits at realistic levels. They would have to take account of the fact that the ratio of our working population to the aged will decline in the foreseeable future.
- Second, a universal contribution for all employers and employees, with no right to opt out for those covered by voluntary schemes, may be a difficult principle for some to accept.
Mr President, it is the Government's intention to pursue a compulsory, contributory OPS as it is the only option that can tackle the problem of financial provision for old age within a reasonably short time. But we have to get it right. We have to proceed with great care and satisfy ourselves on several major issues:
- First, such a scheme would have to provide meaningful benefits financed fully by the contributions. To answer this question, we shall employ expert consultants to advise on financing and administration.
- Second, there would have to be general public acceptance for a compulsory OPS. We shall rely heavily on the advice of Members of this Council in this regard, as well as that of the wider community.
- Third, this is an issue which goes well beyond 1997. Obviously, we shall have to consult the Chinese Government before reaching a decision.
Mr President, the Government is convinced, after extensive study, that continuation with our voluntary approach to retirement protection, together with the affirmation that we intend to pursue the option of a contributory OPS, subject to the above issues being satisfied, is the right way forward. We have reached this conclusion only after prolonged deliberation. The decisions that we take on this issue will affect the well-being not only of today's workforce but
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 15 December 1993 1501
that of employees well into next century. To ensure that we put in place the system which truly meets the needs of this community, we shall continue to keep both this Council and the public at large closely involved in the development of our proposals.
PRESIDENT: Yes, Miss LAU. I would remind Members of Standing Order 22. No debate may arise on a statement but I may in my discretion allow short questions to be put to the public officer making the statement for the purpose of elucidating it.
MISS EMILY LAU (in Cantonese): Mr President, at the OMELCO In-house meeting on 1 November 1991, Mr Allen LEE informed us on behalf of the Executive Council Members that they had decided to introduce a compulsory retirement protection scheme (there was also a public announcement afterwards). He said he was quoting from the records of that meeting. He added that the Education and Manpower Branch was looking into this and an enabling bill would be introduced to the Legislative Council, pending the completion of the study. Is the Administration admitting now that the Executive Council had made a wrong decision in November 1991 and had misled the Legislative Council and the public?
PRESIDENT: That does not fall within this very limited right of questions at my discretion. Any other Members? Mr TANG. Please remember it is to be short questions for the purpose of elucidating the statement.
MR HENRY TANG: Mr President, the Secretary has mentioned that there will be very extensive public consultation. May I ask him to elucidate whether a document will be presented and, if so, when that document will be presented for consultation?
SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER: Mr President, we aim to publish the key findings of our feasibility study and meanwhile we will listen attentively to public views on this subject. We will work as speedily as possible to make up our mind on the way forward on this matter.
MR FREDERICK FUNG (in Cantonese): Mr President, referring to the statement of the Secretary, may I have the definition of an elderly person? Similar pension schemes proposed by many other organizations define a person reaching the age of 60 as an elderly person. Does an elderly person referred to by the Secretary mean a person who has reached the age of 60? Moreover, he says 30% of the median wage amounts to $2,100. But according to the information provided by the Census and Statistics Department, the median wage
1502 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 15 December 1993
of Hong Kong people at present is $7,500. Does that follow that 30% of it will exceed $2,100?
SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER (in Cantonese): Mr President, as to the question of the retirement age, that will also be the subject of our review. May I remind Members that the earlier the retirement, the smaller the size of the contributions and the heavier the burden on the community. As regards the median wage, what I intend to say in my answer just now is that $7,000 is a rough figure. Should there be any adjustment to the latest figure, we will also take that into account.
DR YEUNG SUM (in Cantonese): Mr President, the retirement protection scheme that we have all along been discussing is one which is basically in the form of savings. Does the Administration now decide to replace that by a different type of scheme that is tax-linked? Can the Administration clarify whether it has completely changed its position as to the type of contribution which is so different from the one we have been seeking to introduce?
PRESIDENT: This really strays beyond elucidation within the meaning of Standing Orders.
MR TIK CHI-YUEN (in Cantonese): The Secretary has said that the rates of contribution for an old-age pension scheme are low. May I know what is meant by "low rates of contributions" and will that include the Government's contribution?
SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER (in Cantonese): Mr President, I have just said that the rates of contribution for an old-age pension scheme are likely to be lower than contributions required for other compulsory schemes. As regards how much lower, it can only be ascertained after a detailed study.
At this point Mr Henry TANG and Mr TIK Chi-yuen indicated their wish to ask follow-ups. PRESIDENT: No, I am afraid we will have to move on.
MR ERIC LI (in Cantonese): Mr President, the Administration has mentioned that the number of retirement protection schemes has continued to grow and the market now is mature and that the nature of some is somewhat similar to that of
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 15 December 1993 1503
an old age allowance. But before the release of the consultation paper, the Secretary had indicated that there was no intention to change the existing system. Nonetheless, there seems to be considerable overlap between the new system and the existing retirement protection schemes. Can he elaborate on this point which he has not dealt with in his statement?
PRESIDENT: Mr McGREGOR.
MR JIMMY McGREGOR: Mr President, is it in order for me to thank once again the Secretary for at last getting the Government on the right track? (Laughter)
PRESIDENT: I am sure that is noted.
MR FRED LI (in Cantonese): Mr President, the Administration's reply has mentioned something like 30% of the median wage, if I have not got it wrong. What is the rationale for setting it at 30%?
SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER (in Cantonese): Mr President, the rates that are proposed by a lot of organizations vary and by international standards, the range is between 30% and 40%. Of course, we also have to take into account the fact that the higher the median wage, the heavier the burden on the community as a whole. So some organizations have realistically set the level at 30% as a basis for calculation and this forms the basis of our consideration.
MR MARVIN CHEUNG: Mr President, when referring to the compulsory contributory old-age pension scheme, did the Secretary imply that the contributions will come not from the recipients of the benefits but from other parties?
SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER: Mr President, the principle is that all the working population of Hong Kong, both the employers and employees, will be compelled to contribute part of their earnings into a fund from which the pension for all beneficiaries will be paid out.
MR VINCENT CHENG: Mr President, will private companies be allowed to keep their old pension schemes in future and, if so, will employees of these companies be allowed to opt out of their pension schemes?
1504 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 15 December 1993
SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER: Mr President, the answer to the first part of the question is : Yes, we will certainly hope that the voluntary private schemes will continue. The answer to the second part of the question is no; this scheme will operate under an entirely different principle and all members of the working population will have to contribute because they will in the end benefit from it.
MR TAM YIU-CHUNG (in Cantonese): Mr President, the Administration says that this new approach is the right way forward. But if members of the public or this Council do not support it, will there be any other alternative schemes or will we revert to the former position, that is, nothing of the sort will be introduced as before?
PRESIDENT: Mrs Selina CHOW.
MRS SELINA CHOW: Mr President, will the Secretary please elucidate whether he just delivered a policy statement or whether it is a proposal to consult?
SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER: Mr President, it is a policy statement.
MR PETER WONG: Mr President, could the Secretary please confirm that taken year to year, deductions from the earnings of the working population should equal the pensions paid to the people who have retired?
SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER: Mr President, as I said earlier on, it certainly is vital that the benefits to be paid out must be fully financed from the contributions received on a year to year basis.
MR STEVEN POON: Mr President, would the Secretary tell us whether the scheme will be a means tested scheme?
SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER: Mr President, the concept of strict means testing does not go well with the concept of an old age pension. But there are countries which provide different levels of benefits to beneficiaries depending on the state of their wealth. And we shall certainly take this factor into consideration in our feasibility study.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 15 December 1993 1505 Motions
CRIMINAL PROCEDURE ORDINANCE
THE ATTORNEY GENERAL moved the following motion:
"That the Criminal Procedure (Witnesses' Allowances) (Amendment) Rules 1993, made by the Chief Justice on 16 November 1993, be approved."
He said: Mr President, I move the first resolution standing in my name on the Order Paper.
The rates of allowances payable to ordinary, professional and expert witnesses in criminal proceedings are prescribed in the Criminal Procedure (Witnesses' Allowances) Rules, made by the Chief Justice under the Criminal Procedure Ordinance. The Rules provide that the maximum allowance payable to an ordinary witness is $90 for each day, or $45 for part of a day. A higher rate, that is a maximum of $200 for each day, or $100 for part of a day, is prescribed for a professional or an expert witness. The existing rates were last reviewed in 1983 and are now outdated.
During the Finance Committee meeting on 15 October last, Members approved the proposal that the maximum allowance payable to an ordinary witness be increased to $240 for each day, or $120 for part of a day, and that the maximum allowance payable to a professional or to an expert witness be increased to $1,400 for each day, or $700 for part of a day. The increases are designed to ensure that payments are made at a realistic level.
The Criminal Procedure (Witnesses' Allowances) (Amendment) Rules 1993 will, upon their commencement, bring into effect the new rates. In accordance with section 9B of the Criminal Procedure Ordinance, they require the approval of this Council by resolution.
At the same Finance Committee meeting, Members also approved the proposal that the allowances payable to ordinary, professional and expert witnesses attending a coroner's inquiry be increased to similar levels. These allowances are set out in the Coroners (Witnesses' Allowances) Rules, made under the Coroners Ordinance. The new rates are reflected in the Coroners (Witnesses' Allowances) (Amendment) Rules 1993 which will be the subject of a separate resolution.
Mr President, I beg to move.
Question on the motion proposed, put and agreed to.
1506 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 15 December 1993 CORONERS ORDINANCE
THE ATTORNEY GENERAL moved the following motion:
"That the Coroners (Witnesses' Allowances) (Amendment) Rules 1993 made by the Chief Justice on 17 November 1993, be approved."
He said: Mr President, I move the second resolution standing in my name on the Order Paper.
As I explained just a moment ago, the Coroners (Witnesses' Allowances) (Amendment) Rules 1993 made by the Chief Justice will, upon commencement, bring into effect the new rates of allowances approved by the Finance Committee on 15 October 1993. Pursuant to section 22A of the Coroners Ordinance, they require the approval of this Council by resolution.
Mr President, I beg to move.
Question on the motion proposed, put and agreed to.
FIXED PENALTY (CRIMINAL PROCEEDINGS) ORDINANCE THE SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT moved the following motion:
"That, with effect from 1 April 1994, the Schedule to the Fixed Penalty (Criminal Proceedings) Ordinance be amended in item 24 by repealing "54" and "$450" and substituting "54(1)" and "$1,000" respectively."
He said: Mr President, I move the motion standing in my name in the Order Paper which seeks to increase the fixed penalty fine for overloading goods vehicles.
Overloaded goods vehicles pose a real safety hazard. They also cause serious damage to road surfaces. The existing fixed penalty of $450 for driving or using an overloaded goods vehicle was set in July 1989. This no longer has a deterrent effect since it is much cheaper to pay this fine, and also save time, than meet the extra costs arising from additional trips and freight charges that would have otherwise become necessary. Indeed, some drivers and haulage operators now regard the fixed penalty as a mere and minor operational expense.
We propose therefore to increase the fixed penalty for overloading offences to $1,000. Some may argue that this is still too low a fine but, in perspective, it is part of a two pronged approach in tackling this problem. Later during the sitting, the Council will resume the Second Reading debate on the
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 15 December 1993 1507
Road Traffic (Amendment) (No. 4) Bill 1992 which includes a provision to make owners of goods vehicles strictly liable for the overloading of their vehicles.
Mr President, I beg to move.
Question on the motion proposed, put and agreed to.
INLAND REVENUE ORDINANCE
THE SECRETARY FOR THE TREASURY moved the following motion: "That Part II of Schedule 6 to the Inland Revenue Ordinance be amended by adding - "5. The European Bank for Reconstruction and Development.
6. The Inter-American Development Bank.
7. The Nordic Investment Bank."."
He said: Mr President, I move the first resolution standing in my name in the Order Paper.
To enhance Hong Kong's status as an international financial centre, Members have exempted Hong Kong dollar denominated debt instruments issued by certain credit-worthy multilateral agencies from profits tax and stamp duty. These agencies are specified in Schedule 6 to the Inland Revenue Ordinance. In April last year, exemptions were granted to four agencies, namely, the Asian Development Bank, the International Bank for Reconstruction and Development, the International Finance Corporation and the European Investment Bank. The Ordinance also provides that additions to the list may be made by resolution by this Council.
I now move that three more multilateral agencies be added to the list. They are the European Bank for Reconstruction and Development, the Inter-American Development Bank and the Nordic Investment Bank. Like the four institutions already exempted, the three agencies are multilateral bodies with top credit ratings. They have indicated interest in issuing Hong Kong dollar denominated debt instruments in our market. This would contribute to the expansion of the Hong Kong dollar and capital markets and further promote Hong Kong's development as an international financial centre.
Mr President, I beg to move.
Question on the motion proposed, put and agreed to.
1508 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 15 December 1993 STAMP DUTY ORDINANCE
THE SECRETARY FOR THE TREASURY moved the following motion:
"That section 29I(1) of the Stamp Duty Ordinance be amended by repealing "31 December 1993" and substituting "31 December 1995"."
He said: Mr President, I move the second resolution standing in my name in the Order Paper.
May I just spend a few moments setting out the background? In January last year, Members approved amendments to the Stamp Duty Ordinance (Cap 117). Among other things, these amendments require stamp duty to be paid on all agreements for sale of residential property. By contrast, stamp duty was previously only payable on the assignment of the property.
These amendments have significantly increased cost of speculation in residential property through the use of long chains of sale and purchase agreements before actual assignment. This is a disincentive to those who speculate in property in the period between the conclusion of a sale agreement and assignment, thus pushing up prices for genuine home-buyers.
In passing these amendments, this Council gave them a limited life. They will expire at midnight on 31 December this year unless this Council extends them by resolution. This procedure was introduced at the suggestion of the ad hoc group of this Council that studied the amendment Bill two years ago. The intention was to allow both the Administration and Members the opportunity to examine all relevant factors before deciding whether the measure should be extended.
The amendment Ordinance enacted in January last year was one of a series of measures to curb speculation in residential property. Genuine home-buyers are not affected by it except insofar as they now have to pay stamp duty slightly earlier. Apart from the additional stamp duty a speculator has to pay for each sale before assignment, there is a further financial disincentive of potential profits tax liability. The information on sale agreements provided to the Commissioner of Inland Revenue under the amendment Ordinance enables him to identify speculative property transactions which are liable to profits tax. This system ensures that speculators in property pay their fair share of profits tax, thereby cutting their profit margin. Between January 1992 and October 1993, the Department has issued profits tax assessments in order of $100 million in respect of potentially speculative property sales.
The residential property market today
Taking the period since the enactment of the amendment Ordinance in January last year as a whole, the property market has remained buoyant. The extent of speculation in residential property has to a certain extent been
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 15 December 1993 1509
contained. This is a combination of a tighter mortgage lending policy of the banks as well as the increased cost of speculation as a result of the stamp duty provisions. It would not be sufficient to rely on the banks' initiatives alone. It is not possible to ascertain with precision what the exact contribution of the stamp duty requirement has been towards containing property speculation. But a decision not to extend such requirement would send completely the wrong signal to the market. There would be a considerable risk that speculation would become rife again to the detriment of genuine home-buyers.
The motion before Members now seeks the extension of this measure, which the general public has welcomed, by a further period of two years beyond 31 December 1993. There has been continuous concern about genuine home-buyers not being able to afford the rising costs of property. This motion will reaffirm this Council's resolve in adopting the necessary measures to reduce speculation in residential property.
Mr President, I beg to move.
Question on the motion proposed.
MR RONALD ARCULLI: Mr President, when the amendment was proposed to the Stamp Duty Ordinance in January 1992 to provide for stamp duty on agreements for sale and purchase, I spoke out against it. The primary, if not the sole, purpose was to curb unhealthy property speculation in residential flats. I said at the time that artificial measures will not have the effect then suggested by the Administration. Indeed, I said that it would increase the cost of buying a flat by a genuine end-user.
I have listened with interest to the Secretary for the Treasury and all I hear is that a tight mortgage lending policy together with this measure has contained to a certain extent property speculation. All I can say is that the Secretary for the Treasury has not referred to the increase in property prices between January 1992 and today, nor has he come clean with the stamp duty windfall the Government has received as a result of this measure, nor, more importantly, that genuine home-purchasers including civil servants are unable to pay the downpayment of 30% required today.
Mr President, voting for the motion will not reaffirm this Council's resolve in dealing with the measures to reduce speculation as suggested by the Secretary. As this measure has not and will not have the effect of bringing prices down but indeed the effect of increasing revenue to the Government, in these circumstances I cannot support the motion.
PRESIDENT: Secretary, do you wish to reply?
1510 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 15 December 1993
SECRETARY FOR THE TREASURY: Mr President, I am grateful for the views of the Honourable Ronald ARCULLI. Indeed, many of the observations made by him have been taken into account in proposing the extension of the special measure under the Stamp Duty Ordinance. I would only like to stress that this measure is introduced primarily to tackle excessive speculation in certain sector of the property market and the overall benefits of this measure far outweigh its disbenefits. I thus move that section 29 be amended as proposed in the resolution.
Question on the motion put.
Voice vote taken.
PRESIDENT: Council will have to proceed to a division.
PRESIDENT: The question before Council is : That section 29I(1) of the Stamp Duty Ordinance be amended by repealing "31 December 1993" and substituting "31 December 1995". Would Members now please proceed to vote?
PRESIDENT: Are there any queries? If not, the results will be displayed.
The Chief Secretary, the Attorney General, the Financial Secretary, Mr Allen LEE, Mrs Selina CHOW, Mr Martin LEE, Mr NGAI Shiu-kit, Mr PANG Chun-hoi, Mr SZETO Wah, Mr TAM Yiu-chung, Mr Andrew WONG, Mr LAU Wong-fat, Mr Edward HO, Mrs Peggy LAM, Mrs Miriam LAU, Mr LAU Wah-sum, Mrs Elsie TU, Mr Peter WONG, Mr Albert CHAN, Mr Vincent CHENG, Mr Moses CHENG, Mr Marvin CHEUNG, Mr CHEUNG Man-kwong, Rev FUNG Chi-wood, Mr Frederick FUNG, Mr Timothy HA, Mr Michael HO, Dr HUANG Chen-ya, Dr LAM Kui-chun, Mr LEE Wing-tat, Mr Fred LI, Mr MAN Sai cheong, Mr Steven POON, Mr Henry TANG, Mr TIK Chi-yuen, Mr James TO, Dr YEUNG Sum, Mr Howard YOUNG, Mr WONG Wai-yin, Dr TANG Siu-tong, Miss Christine LOH, Mr Roger LUK, Ms Anna WU and Mr Alfred TSO voted for the motion.
Dr David LI and Mr Ronald ARCULLI voted against the motion.
Mr Martin BARROW and Dr Philip WONG abstained.
THE PRESIDENT announced that there were 44 votes in favour of the motion and two votes against it. He therefore declared that the motion was carried.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 15 December 1993 1511 First Reading of Bills
ELECTORAL PROVISIONS (MISCELLANEOUS AMENDMENTS) (NO. 2) BILL 1993
EMPLOYMENT (AMENDMENT) (NO. 2) BILL 1993
SECURITIES (AMENDMENT) BILL 1993
COMMODITIES TRADING (AMENDMENT) BILL 1993
Bills read the First time and ordered to be set down for Second Reading pursuant to Standing Order 41(3).
Second Reading of Bills
ELECTORAL PROVISIONS (MISCELLANEOUS AMENDMENTS) (NO. 2) BILL 1993
THE SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS moved the Second Reading of: "A Bill to amend the Electoral Provisions Ordinance, the Urban Council Ordinance, the Regional Council Ordinance and the District Boards Ordinance."
He said: Mr President, I move that the Electoral Provisions (Miscellaneous Amendments) (No. 2) Bill 1993 be read the Second time.
On 2 December, the Governor explained to this Council that time for making orderly arrangements for the next round of elections in 1994-95 is running out. We now need to initiate the legislative process to put in place the more straightforward and urgent electoral arrangements for the three tiers of representative bodies. The purpose of this Bill is to achieve just that.
First, the Bill provides for the use of the "single seat, single vote" method of voting for all three tiers of geographical constituency elections. It is important that any voting system applying to the entire electorate must be fair, must have the confidence of the community, and must be easy to operate. The "single seat, single vote" method meets these requirements. It is already used in all the municipal council and over two-thirds of the district board elections. There is wide support, both in this Council and in the community, to extend the use of this voting method to the remaining one-third of district board elections in 1994, and to the geographical constituency elections for the Legislative Council in 1995.
Secondly, the Bill provides for the lowering of the voting age for all elections from 21 to 18 years starting from the 1994 district board elections. Again there is broad community support for lowering the voting age to 18,
1512 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 15 December 1993
which is the voting age in many countries including Britain and China. Lowering the voting age to 18 years will broaden the potential electorate from 3.7 million to 3.9 million. Every effort would be made by the Government to encourage potential voters to register themselves on the General Electoral Roll.
Thirdly, the Bill provides for the abolition of appointed seats in both the district boards and municipal councils as from the next round of elections. This will be a logical step in the gradual evolution of the municipal councils and the district boards over many years. The appointed seats in these bodies have stayed at about one-third of their membership since the latter half of the 1980s. As the Legislative Council will become fully elected in 1995, it will be the appropriate time for the municipal councils and district boards to become fully elected bodies as well. With a fully elected membership, they will be able to reflect better the views of the community which they serve.
Fourthly, consequential to the abolition of the appointed seats and to further enhance the representativeness of the Urban Council and the Regional Council, the Bill provides for the number of directly elected seats in these bodies to be increased from 1995. We propose that the constituencies for the 1995 municipal council elections should be drawn on a ratio of 100 000 people per seat. On this basis, the Urban Council would have 32 directly elected seats; together with the nine district board representatives, it would have a total membership of 41. As for the Regional Council, it would on the same basis have 27 directly elected seats; together with the nine district board representatives and the three ex officio members, who are the Chairman and Vice-charimen of the Heung Yee Kuk, the Regional Council would have a total of 39 members.
Fifthly, our law at present prohibits a person who is a member of any parliament, assembly or council, whether central or local, of any place outside Hong Kong (including China) from nomination as a candidate for, and from holding office in the Legislative Council, the municipal councils and the district boards. The Select Committee on Legislative Council Elections recommended in its report in July 1992 that the Administration should consider lifting this restriction in respect of deputies of China's People's Congresses. In the course of the Sino-British talks on the 1994-95 electoral arrangements, the Chinese side have also proposed that this restriction should be removed. Taking into account the special circumstances of Hong Kong's transition to the status of a Special Administrative Region of the People's Republic of China in 1997, we consider that it would not be unreasonable to lift this restriction. The Bill, therefore, provides that Hong Kong residents who are members of China's People's Congresses at various levels, provided that they meet all other qualifications, may be elected to and serve on the Legislative Council, the municipal councils and the district boards.
Mr President, the proposals in this Bill are part of our efforts to establish an open and fair electoral system which we believe to be acceptable to the people of Hong Kong. In order that these urgent election arrangements may be
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 15 December 1993 1513
put in place on time for the 1994 elections to the district boards, and the 1995 elections to the municipal councils and the Legislative Council, I hope Honourable Members will give their early support to this Bill.
Thank you, Mr President.
Bill referred to the House Committee pursuant to Standing Order 42(3A).
EMPLOYMENT (AMENDMENT) (NO. 2) BILL 1993
THE SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER moved the Second Reading of: "A Bill to amend the Employment Ordinance."
He said: Mr President, I move the Second Reading of the Employment (Amendment) (No. 2) Bill 1993.
This Bill seeks to improve the amount of severance payment and long service payment for long serving workers, and to rectify some ambiguities in the provisions of maternity leave and sickness allowance under the Employment Ordinance.
At present, an employee's entitlement to severance payment and long service payment is calculated at the rate of two-thirds of a month's wages for each year of service, but subject to a maximum limit of 12 months' wages or $180,000, whichever is the less. This arrangement has the effect of limiting the reckonable service of an employee to 18 years.
To alleviate the grievances of long serving workers, we propose to remove the ceiling of 12 months' aggregate wages, but the maximum payment of $180,000 will remain unchanged. The maximum payment of $180,000 would be reviewed periodically, taking into account inflation and general wage movement. To cushion the financial impact on employers, we also propose to recognize only half of an employee's service over and above 18 years when calculating severance payment and long service payment. This proposal would increase the total wage bill in all sectors by 0.011% in 1994.
At present, a female employee who has been employed by the same employer under a continuous contract for a period of not less than 26 weeks shall be entitled to maternity leave. However, the law is silent on how to count the 26 weeks when the pregnant employee is about to take maternity leave. We propose to remove this ambiguity by specifying in the law that the 26-week period should be counted backward from the expected date of commencement of maternity leave. To improve protection to pregnant employees, we also propose to make late payment of maternity leave pay as an offence liable to a maximum fine of $10,000.
1514 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 15 December 1993
Under the existing Employment Ordinance, an employer is not liable to pay sickness allowance to an employee unless the day of sickness is specified in an appropriate medical certificate issued by a medical practitioner. However, a medical certificate issued by a registered dentist is not regarded as an appropriate medical certificate. An employee having encountered a dental injury or received a dental surgical operation requiring a few days' sick leave is at present unable to receive sickness allowance. To improve the situation, we propose to include the medical certificate issued by a registered dentist as a valid document for the purpose of claiming sickness allowance.
Thank you.
Bill referred to the House Committee pursuant to Standing Order 42(3A).
SECURITIES (AMENDMENT) BILL 1993
THE SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES moved the Second Reading of: "A Bill to amend the Securities Ordinance."
He said: Mr President, I move the Second Reading of the Securities (Amendment) Bill 1993.
The Bill introduces a simple and straightforward amendment to put it beyond doubt that the Securities and Futures Commission can take disciplinary action against a person registered under the Securities Ordinance who had committed a breach of rules made by the Commission.
As part of our effort to combat drug money laundering, the Commission will promulgate rules regarding procedures to be followed by intermediaries in the securities market in countering and reporting suspected money laundering transactions. It is noted that under the existing framework, it is unclear whether a breach of such rules constitutes "misconduct" for which actions can be taken under the Ordinance. It is necessary to remove any potential ambiguities in this regard if we are to effectively enforce those rules to be made. The amendment proposed therefore expressly stipulates that "misconduct" includes any failure to comply with rules made by the Commission.
Bill referred to the House Committee pursuant to Standing Order 42(3A)
COMMODITIES TRADING (AMENDMENT) BILL 1993
THE SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES moved the Second Reading of: "A Bill to amend the Commodities Trading Ordinance."
He said: Mr President, I move the Second Reading of the Commodities Trading (Amendment) Bill 1993.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 15 December 1993 1515
The Bill serves a similar purpose as the Securities (Amendment) Bill 1993 which has just been introduced. It seeks to ensure that the Securities and Futures Commission can take disciplinary action against a person registered under the Commodities Trading Ordinance who had committed a breach of rules made by the Commission. This is necessary so that rules to be promulgated regarding procedures to be followed in countering and reporting suspected drug money laundering transactions can be effectively enforced. Again, the amendment is simply to remove a point of doubt in the existing framework.
The Bill also rectifies a disparity between the Securities Ordinance and the Commodities Trading Ordinance. While the former contains an explicit provision for the Securities and Futures Commission to promulgate rules in respect of the conduct of business of intermediaries, this is absent in the latter. Rules in relation to combatting drug money laundering will be made pursuant to this power.
Bill referred to the House Committee pursuant to Standing Order 42(3A).
INTERPRETATION AND GENERAL CLAUSES (AMENDMENT) BILL 1992 Resumption of debate on Second Reading which was moved on 16 December 1992 Question on Second Reading proposed.
MR ANDREW WONG: Mr President, this Bill mainly proposes various technical amendments to the Ordinance, such as the repeal of unnecessary definitions and the modernization of some old definitions and interpretation provisions. However, it has also provided Members with an appropriate opportunity to propose improvements to the drafting of section 34 which deals with this Council's procedures for the scrutiny of subsidiary legislation. These will be dealt with in more detail by the Attorney General at Committee stage. But it is relevant to point out that the initiative for the proposed amendments to section 34 has come from Members having been endorsed by the House Committee on the recommendation of the Legal Unit of the Office of Members of the Legislative Council.
When the Bill was introduced early last Session, the Legal Unit, having confirmed with the Administration that it did not have a high timing priority for enactment, reviewed the practical operations of scrutiny of subsidiary legislation, particularly during the weeks towards the end of Annual Sessions. The main practical problem is that towards the end of a Session section 34 as currently worded can operate to deprive the legislature of the full 28-day period for amendments to subsidiary legislation, not to mention disabling it also from moving a further 21-day extension. The Administration has accepted that this is
1516 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 15 December 1993
an unintended effect of the existing drafting and has co-operated with our Legal Unit in formulating the necessary amendments.
With these remarks, Mr President, I support the Bill.
PRESIDENT: Attorney General, do you wish to reply?
ATTORNEY GENERAL: Mr President, I am grateful to Mr Andrew WONG and indeed the Legal Unit for their scrutiny of this technical and somewhat complex Bill. The amendments that I shall be moving later on at Committee stage to section 34, among others, reflect the wish that this Council's very proper power to scrutinize subordinate legislation should be full and untrammelled and that any uncertainties, even in rare cases, should be removed. And I am entirely in agreement with the amendments proposed by my honourable colleague and by the Legal Unit.
Question on the Second Reading of the Bill put and agreed to.
Bill read the Second time.
Bill committed to a Committee of the whole Council pursuant to Standing Order 43(1).
ROAD TRAFFIC (AMENDMENT) (NO. 4) BILL 1992
Resumption of debate on Second Reading which was moved on 13 January 1993 Question on Second Reading proposed.
MR LEE WING-TAT (in Cantonese): Mr President, the Road Traffic (Amendment) (No. 4) Bill 1992 seeks to amend the Road Traffic Ordinance in four areas. One of the two major amendments concerns the owners of goods vehicles and special purpose vehicles, who will be held strictly liable for the overloading of their vehicles. The other provides for the display of identity plates of drivers in public service vehicles.
The Bill was tabled at the Legislative Council on 13 January 1993. It was then examined by a Bills Committee formed by Members. During its scrutiny of the Bill, the Committee received written representations from eight associations of drivers and vehicle owners. The Committee also met representatives of the Hong Kong Dumper Truck Drivers' Association as well as a joint delegation of representatives from five associations of taxi drivers and taxi owners. Their comments on the Bill were listened to.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 15 December 1993 1517 Overloading of goods vehicles
First of all, I would discuss the government proposal for clamping down on overloading of goods vehicles — a problem which has become very serious. Overloading reduces the efficiency of braking systems on vehicles, thus posing a threat to road safety. Overloaded goods vehicles will also cause heavy damage to road surfaces.
Overloading of goods vehicles has been a widespread problem in recent years. According to government statistics, the police prosecuted an average of 27 000 to 33 000 overloading offences in each of the past three years. In 1992, overloaded goods vehicles were responsible for 38 traffic accidents and the cost for repairing road damage caused by overloaded goods vehicles was estimated at $41 million. The Government has proposed a two-pronged solution for this problem. Firstly, this Council has just passed a resolution to raise the amount of the fixed fine for overloading of goods vehicles from $450 to a more prohibitive $1,000. Secondly, clause 3 of the Bill as proposed empowers the Governor in Council to make regulations to provide for the strict liability of owners of goods vehicles and special purpose vehicles regarding the overloading of their vehicles. Where a vehicle is found overloaded, its owner shall be guilty of the offence punishable with a fine, unless he proves that he has not consented to the overloading and has taken reasonable steps to prevent it.
The concerned groups' representations received by the Bills Committee generally did not see much of a problem in the Government's intention to clamp down on overloading of goods vehicles. However, they found the Bill unfair to owners of rental goods vehicles, who, in most cases, had no control over the drivers and could not tell if they intended to commit certain offences. Besides, it would be very unfair to prosecute the driver and the owner but not the consignor. Since the consignor knows the weight of the goods consigned, he therefore should also be held partly responsible. The Hong Kong Dumper Truck Drivers' Association pointed out that contractors in the construction industry, that is, consignors of dumper trucks, sometimes forced drivers to overload their vehicles and even agreed to pay half or the full amount of any eventual fine. The association added that, if a driver refused to overload his vehicle, his service for that particular construction site might be terminated.
The Committee, after detailed discussions, arrived at the following conclusions:
(1) In view of the severity of the problem of overloading of goods vehicles, all parties should make a commitment to resolving it. The Committee accepted the Government's arguments and thinks that it is not unreasonable that the owner should be strictly liable for overloading of his vehicle, considering that he presumably has some control over the operation of this vehicle. The Bill, besides, will allow the owner to rely on the defence that he "has taken due care to prevent overloading" and to apply the "balance of probabilities"
1518 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 15 December 1993
rule of onus of proof to prove that he is morally not at fault. Still, the Committee thinks that the Government must launch an extensive publicity and education programme to help vehicle owners to learn and recognize their responsibility in respect of overloading and the various ways to prevent it.
(2) As regards the strict liability of consignors regarding overloading, the Committee asked the Government to make an in-depth study of this suggestion. After studying it and consulting legal advice, the Government thinks that holding consignors strictly liable will violate their right of presumed innocence as defendants, that is, their right under section 11(1) of the Hong Kong Bill of Rights Ordinance. The Government argues that consignors are different from goods vehicle owners in that they have no control over the operations of the vehicles and are not in a position to decide if overloaded vehicles should be allowed onto the roads. Therefore, it is not reasonable to require them to prove they have taken due care to prevent overloading before they could be cleared of any liability. Aside from this legal technicality, the Government also thinks that the Committee's suggestion will be hard to enforce in practice. For example, in a case where there are more than one consignor, it will not be appropriate to prosecute all of them. Secondly, since the Transport Department does not keep a record of consignors, any prosecutive action against consignors will rely on information provided by drivers. But past experience shows that drivers may not be willing to co-operate. If they are co-operative, the Government can then invoke existing law to charge consignors with "aiding and abetting" another person in the commission of the offence of overloading. In view of the above, the Government thinks that the Committee's suggestion should not be adopted. The Committee accepts the Government's explanation.
(3) Officials of the Transport Branch told the Bills Committee that in order to help all parties concerned to resolve the problem of overloading, the following administrative measures, apart from legislative ones, are being implemented or will be adopted by the Government:
(i) To improve communication and promote publicity and education programmes through regular meetings with consignors, cement factories and drivers' associations;
(ii) To provide two telephone hotlines so as to facilitate and encourage drivers to report overloading cases;
(iii) To focus police action against a fwe trades within the transportation industry which are regular offenders;
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 15 December 1993 1519
(iv) To encourage contractors to install weighing facilities at construction sites in order to help resolve the problem of overloading of dumper trucks. In this connection, the Committee suggested that the Government should consider requiring contractors of government projects or government-subsidized projects to take up a greater share of responsibility;
(v) The Government and the Container Trucks Association are testing an on vehicle weighing equipment. If the results are satisfactory, the Government will encourage owners to install such equipment on their vehicles;
(vi) Wherever possible and appropriate, arrangements will be made for goods vehicle drivers to use the weighing facilities at cargo handling areas managed by the Marine Department; and
(vii) To step up publicity through the media, and to hold discussions with frequent offenders known to the Government.
Mr President, the Committee accepts the Government's responses and action plans. But to monitor the effectiveness of the legislative and administrative actions against overloading, the Committee requests that, after the Bill is passed into law, the Government should review the situation and brief this Council's Transport Panel on its findings from time to time.
Compulsory display of identity plates of taxi drivers
Another important provision of the Bill is to empower the Governor in Council to provide for the display of drivers' identity plates on public service vehicles (clause 2). The Government has already taken the first step in accordance with the Transport Advisory Committee's recommendations, by making regulations for compliance by taxi drivers. The purpose is to facilitate a passenger to complain against misconduct by a taxi driver, while at the same time encourage taxi drivers to observe a greater degree of self-discipline. Under the Government's original proposal, taxi drivers will be required, upon the passage of the subsidiary legislation, to prepare these identity plates to particular specifications.
The Committee forwarded to the Transport Branch representations made by the joint delegation of representatives of five associations of taxi drivers and taxi owners. In these representations, the associations said that they would not oppose the requirement. However, they opined that the Government should centralize the issuance of drivers' identity plates, because if taxi drivers were to prepare the plates themselves, the specifications might not be correct and there would be the risk of forgery.
1520 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 15 December 1993
In response to these representations, the Government explained that taxi drivers' identity plates are not to be used as government licences or identity cards. Their purpose is to provide a passenger with more information, namely, information on the driver, in addition to information available at the time, for example, the vehicle licence number. The passenger would need this additional information if he wished to complain against the driver. Given the nature and use of the plates, as well as the extra resources necessary to issue the drivers' identity plates to some 200 000 registered taxi drivers in Hong Kong, the Government thinks that the delegation's suggestion is unnecessary. As to the possibility of forgery, the Government said that intentional offences of this kind could not be prevented even if the plates were issued by the Government. However, to assist taxi operators in complying with the proper specifications, the Government agreed to producing 200 000 blank identity plates for free distribution to taxi drivers through various taxi drivers' associations and at the offices of the Transport Department. The plates will be usable as soon as taxi drivers fill in their personal particulars. The Government would review the situation in six months. The Committee is satisfied with the Government's explanation and arrangements, and is convinced that they may dispel taxi drivers' worries.
Two minor amendments to clauses 4 to 7 of the Bill are also supported by the Committee.
With these remarks, Mr President, I commend the Road Traffic (Amendment) (No. 4) Bill 1992 to Members.
MRS MIRIAM LAU (in Cantonese): Mr President, over $400 million are spent on road maintenance every year. This is an enormous amount. Of course, roads need maintenance because of normal damage. But the fast rate and great extent at which roads in Hong Kong are damaged can be attributed to the frequent overloading of trucks which causes serious damage to the roads. The fixed penalty of a $450 fine payable by the driver has proved to be ineffective for dealing with this kind of offence. In fact, many goods vehicles owners regard this fixed penalty as a part of their operating costs. Some goods vehicles owners and consignors even deliberately request drivers to overload, and undertake to pay the fine in case the drivers are "booked". For this reason, the penalty for overloading has failed to achieve any deterrent effect in the past.
In Hong Kong, roads are few but cars are many. We should therefore avoid as far as possible any unnecessary damage to the roads in order to reduce the need for maintenance. In this light, overloading is absolutely intolerable. In fact, overloading also constitutes a threat to road safety. The Transport Panel of this Council is very concerned about this problem and has had many discussions on it. The panel has agreed that the Administration should increase the relevant penalty. On the problem of overloading, I agree that goods vehicles drivers and owners should both be held liable. Furthermore, consignors should in fact also be liable to a certain extent, because very often
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 15 December 1993 1521
they are the culprits behind the scenes. However, as pointed out by Mr LEE Wing-tat just now, to punish consignors by imposing strict liability on them may give rise to cases of injustice and may even infringe upon human rights. There is also a certain degree of difficulty in enforcement. Therefore, we cannot in the meantime include the consignor into the scope of liability. Nevertheless, this does not mean that the consignor can come clean of the offence of overloading. If the overloading is instigated by the consignor and the goods vehicles driver or owner is willing to disclose and testify against him in court, then the consignor is still liable for the offence of abetting. In fact, no one has the right to ask somebody else to breach the law for him. If the drivers and owners are united in opposing overloading, it will be impossible for consignors to make such an unreasonable and illegal request. Of course, the ideal scenario will be for the consignors to initiate measures to prevent overloading in the consignment of goods. The Administration should appeal to and advise the consignors in this regard. For example, it is not impossible for consignors to take measures to prevent overloading by cement delivery mixers and dumper trucks which are the more frequent offenders. Cement companies usually have an apparatus to measure the weight of cement. It is only that in the past they have not strictly abided by the rules of weight limit in loading the cement delivery mixers. Also, many large construction sites have weighing facilities, so it will be easy to control the weight of dumper trucks entering and leaving the sites.
As for the smaller construction sites, the Administration should as far as possible encourage the developers concerned to install weighbridges or use dumper trucks with built-in weighing. In the long run, I hope that all goods vehicles can be installed with a built-in weighing equipment. This together with a heightened alertness of overloading on the part of goods vehicles drivers, owners and consignors will, I believe, be able to solve the problem of overloading. However, before the problem is fully resolved, the Administration should review regularly the situation of overloading, and further tighten up the relevant law when necessary.
Mr President, as regards the identity plates of taxi drivers, I still think it best for the Transport Department to issue these plates. But I also agree that in so doing the Administration will have to incur huge administrative costs, and there may be difficulties in the deployment of manpower. Now the Administration has agreed to produce blank plates for drivers or taxi associations to fill in the required information. Although this method may not be the best one, it is still better than allowing taxi drivers to produce their own plantes. Nevertheless, the Administration has to keep the situation under review in order to find out whether there are faked identity plates. To bring the effectiveness of these plates into play in order to improve the taxi service, the public have to report misconduct by taxi drivers so as to weed out the black sheep of the trade. In this regard, the Administration should educate the public on how to properly exercise their rights in order to avoid frivolous litigations.
With these remarks, Mr President, I support the Bill.
1522 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 15 December 1993
SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT: Mr President, may I first take this opportunity to express the Administration's gratitude to Mr LEE Wing-tat for chairing the Bills Committee and to all Members for their in-depth consideration of the issues involved and for their discussions with the representatives of the trade. I am particularly grateful to Mr LEE Wing-tat and Mrs Miriam LAU for their very constructive comments this afternoon.
The Bills Committee had earlier expressed concern about allegations that some consignors were forcing goods vehicle drivers to overload. Mr LEE's and Mrs LAU's clear expositions have covered the difficulties of imposing strict liability on consignors of goods. I share their views. Indeed, legal advice is that imposing strict liability on this party would probably infringe the presumption of innocence clause in the Bill of Rights. The Administration has therefore proposed that the practical and effective approach is to make owners of goods vehicles strictly liable in law for the overloading offence and also to raise the level of the fixed penalty. I am grateful to the Bills Committee for their support.
Some Members of the Bills Committee have quite rightly suggested that publicity and other administrative measures must also be taken and this includes the need for ongoing dialogue with the trade. This is in hand. For example, the trade has been briefed and lobbied and a hotline has already been set up in the Transport Department in addition to the police hotline to receive complaints of overloading. Any such complaints lodged will be thoroughly investigated.
The Bill also seeks to provide for drivers of public service vehicles to display identity plates. The intention is to impose this requirement on taxi drivers. Mrs Miriam LAU has expressed some concern about allowing the taxi drivers to design their own forms. The Administration accepts this point and the Government will now print serialized blank plates for free distribution through the Transport Department and the taxi associations.
I shall certainly take into account the other points raised by Mrs LAU and Mr LEE. Thank you, Mr President.
Question on the Second Reading of the Bill put and agreed to.
Bill read the Second time.
Bill committed to a Committee of the whole Council pursuant to Standing Order 43(1).
ROAD TRAFFIC (AMENDMENT) BILL 1993
Resumption of debate on Second Reading which was moved on 12 May 1993
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 15 December 1993 1523 Question on the Second Reading of the Bill proposed, put and agreed to. Bill read the Second time.
Bill committed to a Committee of the whole Council pursuant to Standing Order 43(1).
FIXED PENALTY (TRAFFIC CONTRAVENTIONS) (AMENDMENT) BILL 1993 Resumption of debate on Second Reading which was moved on 12 May 1993 Question on the Second Reading of the Bill proposed, put and agreed to. Bill read the Second time.
Bill committed to a Committee of the whole Council pursuant to Standing Order 43(1).
INDUSTRIAL TRAINING (CLOTHING INDUSTRY) (AMENDMENT) BILL 1993 Resumption of debate on Second Reading which was moved on 10 November 1993 Question on the Second Reading of the Bill proposed, put and agreed to. Bill read the Second time.
Bill committed to a Committee of the whole Council pursuant to Standing Order 43(1).
BANKING (AMENDMENT) BILL 1993
Resumption of debate on Second Reading which was moved on 7 July 1993 Question on Second Reading proposed.
DR DAVID LI: Mr President, the regulatory framework surrounding Hong Kong's banking community serves the territory well. Our regulations have created a credible market that has enabled Hong Kong to become one of the world's most important financial centres.
1524 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 15 December 1993
This success would not have been possible without regulation that meets international standards. Nor would it have been possible without the active support and assistance of the Hong Kong banking community.
The Banking (Amendment) Bill is another example of the productive partnership that Hong Kong's financial industry has and must have with the Hong Kong Monetary Authority and with the Administration. They have both been responsive to comments made following consultation with the members of my Constituency, the Hong Kong Association of Banks, and the Deposit-taking Companies Association.
The comments submitted by these associations were accepted, and the Administration has either amended the Bill, or appended guidelines which meet the approval of the Finance Constituency.
My Constituency appreciates the fact that the Administration and the Hong Kong Monetary Authority have once again been responsive to our concerns, and that this fruitful co-operation has resulted in the Bill before this Council today. This is a good example of the type of co-operation and consultation that can only benefit the people of Hong Kong today, and in the longer term.
With these remarks, Mr President, I support the Banking (Amendment) Bill 1993.
SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES: Mr President, since the Bill was gazetted on 25 June 1993, comments were received from the Hong Kong Association of Banks and the Hong Kong Society of Accountants. The Honourable Marvin CHEUNG has also made some comments on the Bill when it was considered by the House Committee. As one of the principal objectives of the Bill is to clarify certain provisions of the Banking Ordinance, the input from the banking industry and the accounting profession has been most useful. I am very grateful to Mr CHEUNG and the two organizations.
I would also like to thank the Honourable David LI for his very kind remarks which do reflect very aptly the importance we attach to ensuring that the industry's views are taken into consideration wherever possible.
At the Committee stage, I will be moving a number of amendments to the Bill. Some of the amendments will address the specific concern of the two professional organizations; others are relatively minor mainly technical changes. One of the industry's concerns relates to the breadth of information the Monetary Authority may require from institutions under clause 8(b) which is intended to enable the Monetary Authority to require information for the purpose of maintaining the register of institutions under section 27. The amendment to clause 8(b) will make this intention clear.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 15 December 1993 1525
There has also been a concern over a sudden revocation of an approval to establish an overseas banking subsidiary under clause 13. Apart from an amendment to the clause which I shall explain in more detail during the Committee stage, the Monetary Authority has decided to issue a statutory guideline which will set out the specific criteria to be taken into consideration in exercising his powers under the new section 51A. The guideline will be discussed with the industry associations before issue.
With these remarks, Mr President, I recommend the Bill to Members. Question on the Second Reading of the Bill put and agreed to.
Bill read the Second time.
Bill committed to a Committee of the whole Council pursuant to Standing Order 43(1).
Committee stage of Bills
Council went into Committee.
INTERPRETATION AND GENERAL CLAUSES (AMENDMENT) BILL 1992 Clauses 1 and 25
ATTORNEY GENERAL: Mr Chairman, I move that clauses 1 and 25 be amended as set out in the paper circulated to Members.
Clause 1 is amended by altering the short title of the proposed Ordinance. This has become necessary by reason of the enactment of an Ordinance with a similar short title in May of this year.
Clause 25(1) is amended by deleting the repeal of section 92 of the Interpretation and General Clauses Ordinance and its re-enactment as a new section in the Criminal Procedure Ordinance. I will shortly be proposing that section 92 should be replaced by a completely new provision to resolve an apparent inconsistency with the Bill of Rights Ordinance.
Mr Chairman, I beg to move.
1526 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 15 December 1993 Proposed amendments
Clause 1
That clause 1 be amended, by deleting "Ordinance 1992" and substituting "(No. 2) Ordinance 1993".
Clause 25
That clause 25 be amended, by deleting subclause (1) and substituting -
"(1) Sections 81, 82, 83, 84, 86, 87, 88 and 90 are repealed and re-enacted as sections 101B to 101I respectively of the Criminal Procedure Ordinance (Cap. 221).".
Question on the amendments proposed, put and agreed to.
Question on clauses 1 and 25, as amended, proposed, put and agreed to. Clauses 2 to 24 and 26 to 28 were agreed to.
New clause 16A Placing of subsidiary legislation
before Legislative Council
New clause 24A Amendment of penalty
New clause 25A Rectification of errors
New clause 26A Orders made by Director
New clause 29 Section added
New clause 30 Placing of technical memorandum
before Legislative Council
New clause 31 Technical memorandum
New clause 32 Placing of Technical memorandum
before Legislative Council
New clause 33 Rectification of errors
Clauses read the First time and ordered to be set down for Second Reading pursuant to Standing Order 46(6).
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 15 December 1993 1527
ATTORNEY GENERAL: Mr Chairman, I move that new clauses 16A, 24A to 26A and 29 to 33 as set out in the paper circulated to Members be read a Second time.
As foreshadowed by the Honourable Andrew WONG, clause 16A resolves potential procedural problems whereby this Council might be deprived of having adequate time to scrutinize subsidiary legislation.
Section 34 of the Interpretation and General Clauses Ordinance gives the Legislative Council 28 days to amend subsidiary legislation laid on the table. Where a Session of the Legislative Council ends before that 28-day period, the period is extended so that it expires on the day after the second sitting of the following Session.
It is possible, however, that the formal end of a Session will occur more than 28 days after the final sitting. In that case, the special provision for extending the time limit would not come into effect and this Council would be denied the opportunity of amending subsidiary legislation tabled during the last sitting.
A similar problem exists in relation to section 34(4). This permits the Legislative Council to extend the normal period of 28 days for the scrutiny of subsidiary legislation by up to 21 days. Such extension, however, may not be sufficient to enable the next sitting to be reached where, for example, the Christmas recess intervenes.
A further problem could also arise in the meaning of "sitting". As Members are aware, this Council has special sittings where ordinary business is not discussed and questions concerning subsidiary legislation cannot be raised.
The proposed new clause 16A deals with these problems by amending section 34. Firstly, there will be an automatic extension of the 28-day period whenever such time limit would expire after the last sitting of a Session. The date of the formal end of the Session will no longer be material. Secondly, the Legislative Council will be permitted to extend the 28-day period to the next sitting, irrespective of when that sitting takes place. Finally, the word "sitting" is defined to mean those occasions where the discussion of subsidiary legislation is on the Order Paper.
New clauses 25A, 26A and 30 to 33 make consequential amendments following the new provisions contained in new clause 16A.
New clause 29 concerns criminal penalties and clarifies an apparent inconsistency between section 92 of the Interpretation and General Clauses Ordinance and Article 12 of the Bill of Rights Ordinance.
1528 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 15 December 1993
Under section 92, where a criminal penalty is varied between the time of commission of an offence and the time of conviction, the offender is liable to the penalty prevailing at the time of commission. The section, however, must be read subject to Article 12 of the Bill of Rights Ordinance. This states that where a penalty is varied between the time of commission and conviction, the offender is only liable to the lesser penalty. Although the legal position is clear, it is desirable that the opportunity presented by this Bill be taken to remove this apparent inconsistency.
The amendment proposed in new clause 29 deals with the matter by importing the effect of Article 12 of the Bill of Rights Ordinance into the Criminal Procedure Ordinance. The consequential repeal of section 92 is made by new clause 24A.
Mr Chairman, I beg to move.
Question on the Second Reading of the clauses proposed, put and agreed to. Clauses read the Second time.
ATTORNEY GENERAL: Mr Chairman, I move that new clauses 16A, 24A to 26A and 29 to 33 be added to the Bill.
Proposed additions
New clause 16A
That the Bill be amended, by adding —
"16A. Placing of subsidiary legislation
before Legislative Council
(1) Section 34(3) is amended by repealing paragraphs (a) and (b) and substituting -
"(a) after the last sitting before the end of a session or dissolution of the Legislative Council; but
(b) on or before the day of the second sitting of the Legislative Council in the next session,".
(2) Section 34(4) is amended by repealing "by a further period not exceeding 21 days" and substituting "to the next sitting".
(3) Section 34(6) is repealed and the following substituted -
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 15 December 1993 1529 "(6) In this section -
"sitting" (會議), when used to calculate time, means the day on which the sitting commences and only includes a sitting at which
subsidiary legislation is included on the order paper;
"subsidiary legislation" (附屬法例) does not include a resolution of the Legislative Council.".".
New clause 24A
That the Bill be amended, by adding —
"24A. Amendment of penalty
Section 92 is repealed.".
New clause 25A
That the Bill be amended, by adding —
"25A. Rectification of errors
Section 98A is amended -
(a) in the Chinese version, in subsection (2), by adding "的會議" after "提交省覽"; and
(b) by adding -
"(3) In this section, "sitting" (會議), when used to calculate
time, means the day on which the sitting commences and
only includes a sitting at which subsidiary legislation is
included on the order paper.".".
New clause 26A
That the Bill be amended, by adding —
"Import and Export Ordinance
1530 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 15 December 1993 26A. Orders made by Director
Section 6B of the Import and Export Ordinance (Cap. 60) is amended -
(a) in subsection (5) by repealing "by a further period not exceeding 21 days" and substituting "to the next sitting"; and
(b) by adding -
"(8) In this section, "sitting", when used to calculate time,
means the day on which the sitting commences and only
includes a sitting at which subsidiary legislation is
included on the order paper.".".
New clause 29
That the Bill be amended, by adding —
"29. Section added
The following is added -
"101J. Amendment of penalty
(1) Subject to subsection (2), where an act or omission is an
offence and the penalty for the offence is amended between the time a person commits an offence and he is convicted of the offence, the offender is liable to the penalty prescribed at the time of the offence.
(2) If the amended penalty is a lighter penalty, the offender is
liable to the lighter penalty.".
New clause 30
That the Bill be amended, by adding —
Air Pollution Control Ordinance
30. Placing of technical memorandum
before Legislative Council
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 15 December 1993 1531 Section 37B of the Air Pollution Control Ordinance (Cap. 311) is amended -
(a) in subsection (4) by repealing "for a further period not exceeding 21 days" and substituting "to the next sitting"; and
(b) by adding -
"(7) In this section, "sitting", when used to calculate
time, means the day on which the sitting commences and only
includes a sitting at which subsidiary legislation is included
on the order paper.".
New clause 31
That the Bill be amended, by adding —
Water Pollution Control Ordinance
31. Technical memorandum
Section 21 of the Water Pollution Control Ordinance (Cap. 358) is amended -
(a) in subsection (7) by repealing "by a further period not exceeding 21 days" and substituting "to the next sitting"; and
(b) by adding -
"(10) In this section, "sitting", when used to calculate
time, means the day on which the sitting commences and only
includes a sitting at which subsidiary legislation is included
on the order paper.".
New clause 32
That the Bill be amended, by adding —
Noise Control Ordinance
1532 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 15 December 1993
31. Placing of Technical Memorandum before
Legislative Council
Section 11 of the Noise Control Ordinance (Cap. 400) is amended -
(a) in subsection (4) by repealing "by a further period not exceeding 21 days" and substituting "to the next sitting"; and
(b) by adding -
"(6) In this section, "sitting", when used to calculate
time, means the day on which the sitting commences and only
includes a sitting at which subsidiary legislation is included
on the order paper.".
New clause 33
That the Bill be amended, by adding —
Revised Edition of the Laws
Ordinance 1965
33. Rectification of errors
Section 18 of the Revised Edition of the Laws Ordinance 1965 (53 of 1965) is amended by adding -
"(3) In this section, "sitting", when used to calculate time, means the day on which the sitting commences and only includes a sitting at which subsidiary legislation is included on the order paper.".".
Question on the addition of the new clauses proposed, put and agreed to.
ROAD TRAFFIC (AMENDMENT) (NO. 4) BILL 1992
Clause 1
SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT: Mr Chairman, I move that clause 1(1) and (2) be amended as set out in the paper circulated to Members.
These are minor amendments which simply change the date of the Ordinance and the implementation date.