HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 13 October 1993 117 OFFICIAL RECORD OF PROCEEDINGS
Wednesday, 13 October 1993
The Council met at half-past Two o'clock
PRESENT
THE PRESIDENT
THE HONOURABLE JOHN JOSEPH SWAINE, C.B.E., LL.D., Q.C., J.P.
THE CHIEF SECRETARY
THE HONOURABLE SIR DAVID ROBERT FORD, K.B.E., L.V.O., J.P.
THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY
THE HONOURABLE NATHANIEL WILLIAM HAMISH MACLEOD, C.B.E., J.P.
THE ATTORNEY GENERAL
THE HONOURABLE JEREMY FELL MATHEWS, C.M.G., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE ALLEN LEE PENG-FEI, C.B.E., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE MRS SELINA CHOW LIANG SHUK-YEE, O.B.E., J.P. THE HONOURABLE HUI YIN-FAT, O.B.E., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE MARTIN LEE CHU-MING, Q.C., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE DAVID LI KWOK-PO, O.B.E., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE NGAI SHIU-KIT, O.B.E., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE PANG CHUN-HOI, M.B.E.
THE HONOURABLE SZETO WAH
THE HONOURABLE TAM YIU-CHUNG
THE HONOURABLE ANDREW WONG WANG-FAT, O.B.E., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE LAU WONG-FAT, O.B.E., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE EDWARD HO SING-TIN, O.B.E., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE RONALD JOSEPH ARCULLI, O.B.E., J.P.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 13 October 1993 118 THE HONOURABLE MARTIN GILBERT BARROW, O.B.E., J.P. THE HONOURABLE MRS PEGGY LAM, O.B.E., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE MRS MIRIAM LAU KIN-YEE, O.B.E., J.P. THE HONOURABLE LAU WAH-SUM, O.B.E., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE JAMES DAVID McGREGOR, O.B.E., I.S.O., J.P. THE HONOURABLE MRS ELSIE TU, C.B.E.
THE HONOURABLE PETER WONG HONG-YUEN, O.B.E., J.P. THE HONOURABLE ALBERT CHAN WAI-YIP
THE HONOURABLE VINCENT CHENG HOI-CHUEN, J.P. THE HONOURABLE MOSES CHENG MO-CHI
THE HONOURABLE MARVIN CHEUNG KIN-TUNG, J.P. THE HONOURABLE CHEUNG MAN-KWONG
THE HONOURABLE CHIM PUI-CHUNG
REV THE HONOURABLE FUNG CHI-WOOD
THE HONOURABLE FREDERICK FUNG KIN-KEE
THE HONOURABLE TIMOTHY HA WING-HO, M.B.E., J.P. THE HONOURABLE MICHAEL HO MUN-KA
DR THE HONOURABLE HUANG CHEN-YA
THE HONOURABLE SIMON IP SIK-ON, O.B.E., J.P.
DR THE HONOURABLE LAM KUI-CHUN
DR THE HONOURABLE CONRAD LAM KUI-SHING, J.P. THE HONOURABLE LAU CHIN-SHEK
THE HONOURABLE EMILY LAU WAI-HING
THE HONOURABLE LEE WING-TAT
THE HONOURABLE ERIC LI KA-CHEUNG, J.P.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 13 October 1993 119 THE HONOURABLE FRED LI WAH-MING
THE HONOURABLE MAN SAI-CHEONG
THE HONOURABLE STEVEN POON KWOK-LIM
THE HONOURABLE HENRY TANG YING-YEN, J.P.
THE HONOURABLE TIK CHI-YUEN
THE HONOURABLE JAMES TO KUN-SUN
DR THE HONOURABLE SAMUEL WONG PING-WAI, M.B.E., J.P. DR THE HONOURABLE PHILIP WONG YU-HONG
DR THE HONOURABLE YEUNG SUM
THE HONOURABLE HOWARD YOUNG, J.P.
THE HONOURABLE ZACHARY WONG WAI-YIN
DR THE HONOURABLE TANG SIU-TONG, J.P.
THE HONOURABLE CHRISTINE LOH KUNG-WAI
THE HONOURABLE ROGER LUK KOON-HOO
THE HONOURABLE ANNA WU HUNG-YUK
THE HONOURABLE JAMES TIEN PEI-CHUN, O.B.E., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE ALFRED TSO SHIU-WAI
ABSENT
DR THE HONOURABLE LEONG CHE-HUNG, O.B.E., J.P.
IN ATTENDANCE
THE HONOURABLE MRS ANSON CHAN, C.B.E., J.P.
SECRETARY FOR THE CIVIL SERVICE
MR MICHAEL LEUNG MAN-KIN, C.B.E., J.P.
SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 13 October 1993 120
MR MICHAEL SUEN MING-YEUNG, J.P.
SECRETARY FOR HOME AFFAIRS
MR ALISTAIR PETER ASPREY, O.B.E., A.E., J.P.
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY
MRS ELIZABETH WONG CHIEN CHI-LIEN, I.S.O., J.P.
SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE
MR CHAU TAK-HAY, J.P.
SECRETARY FOR TRADE AND INDUSTRY
MR ANTHONY GORDON EASON, J.P.
SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS
MR DONALD TSANG YAM-KUEN, O.B.E., J.P.
SECRETARY FOR THE TREASURY
MR MICHAEL DAVID CARTLAND, J.P.
SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES
MR LEUNG CHIN-MAN, J.P.
SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS
THE CLERK TO THE LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL
MR CLETUS LAU KWOK-HONG
THE DEPUTY CLERK TO THE LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL MR PATRICK CHAN NIM-TAK
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 13 October 1993 121 Papers
The following papers were laid on the table pursuant to Standing Order 14(2): Subject
Subsidiary Legislation L.N. No.
Road Traffic (Public Service Vehicles) (Amendment)
Regulation 1993 ....................................................................................... 382/93
Commissioner for Administrative Complaints Ordinance
(Amendment of Schedule 1) (No. 4) Order 1993 ..................................... 383/93
Prevention of Bribery Ordinance (Amendment of
Schedule) (No. 2) Order 1993 .................................................................. 384/93
Hospital Authority Ordinance (Amendment of
Schedules) Order 1993 ............................................................................. 385/93
Revised Edition of the Laws (Correction of Errors)
(No. 3) Order 1993................................................................................... 386/93 Legal Practitioners (Fees) (Amendment) Rule 1993 .................................... 387/93
Antiquities and Monuments (Declaration of
Historical Building) Notice 1993 ............................................................. 388/93
Travel Agents (Amendment) Ordinance 1988
(70 of 1988) (Commencement) Notice 1993............................................ 389/93
Travel Agents (Amendment) Ordinance 1993
(51 of 1993) (Commencement) Notice 1993............................................ 390/93
Sessional Papers 1993-94
No. 1 — Land Development Corporation
Annual Report 1992-93
No. 2 — Statement of Accounts and Report on the
Administration of the Travel Agents' Reserve Fund
for the year ended 31 March 1992
No. 3 — Report by the Commissioner of Correctional
Services on the Administration of the
Prisoners' Welfare Fund
for the year ended 31 March 1992
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 13 October 1993 122
No. 4 — Report of Changes to the Approved Estimates of
Expenditure Approved during the
First Quarter of 1993-94
Public Finance Ordinance: Section 8
No. 5 — Revisions of the 1993-94 Estimates Approved
by the Urban Council during the
First Quarter of the 1993-94 Financial Year
No. 6 — Regional Council Revised Estimates of Revenue
and Expenditure 1993-94
No. 7 — Hong Kong Housing Authority Annual Report 1992-93
No. 8 — Hong Kong Export Credit Insurance Corporation
Annual Report for 1992-93
No. 9 — Hong Kong Tourist Association Annual Report 1992-93
No. 10 — The Government Minute in response to the
Report of the Public Accounts Committee dated July 1993
No. 11 — Twelfth Periodic Report on Hong Kong under the
International Convention on the Elimination of
All Forms of Racial Discrimination
No. 12 — Report of the Public Accounts Committee on the
Report of the Director of Audit on the
Ex-Gratia Compensation for the clearance of the
Kowloon Walled City (PAC Report No. 20A)
Addresses
Report of Changes to the Approved Estimates of Expenditure Approved during the First Quarter of 1993-94 Public Finance Ordinance : Section 8
SECRETARY FOR THE TREASURY: Mr President, in accordance with section 8 of the Public Finance Ordinance, I have tabled for Members' information a summary of all changes made to the approved Estimates of Expenditure for the first quarter of the current financial year 1993-94.
Supplementary provision of $1,012 million was approved. This included $394 million for the refund of contributions to civil servants opting out of the Widows and Orphans Pension Scheme and the Surviving Spouses' and Children's Pensions Scheme and $350 million for a grant to the Financial Secretary Incorporated for establishing a Special Trust Fund for AIDS. The
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supplementary provision was fully offset, either by savings under the same or other Heads of Expenditure, or by the deletion of funds under the Additional Commitments subheads.
During the period, non-recurrent commitments were increased by $171 million, new non-recurrent commitments of $908 million were approved, and approved non-recurrent commitments of $740 million were revoted.
In the same period, a net decrease of 141 posts was approved.
Items in the summary have been approved either by Finance Committee or under delegated authority. The latter have been reported to the Finance Committee in accordance with section 8(8)(a) of the Public Finance Ordinance.
Hong Kong Tourist Association Annual Report 1992-93
MR MARTIN BARROW: Mr President, I am pleased to table the Annual Report of the Hong Kong Tourist Association for the financial year 1992-93.
In most respects, 1992 proved a satisfactory year for Hong Kong tourism. Recession in major long-haul markets, and the downturn in the Japanese market, did not prevent Hong Kong from achieving a record number of visitor arrivals and record tourism receipts.
The territory succeeded in retaining its position as Asia's most popular travel destination, in an increasingly competitive environment. And tourism climbed in Hong Kong's industry league tables to become the territory's second largest earner of foreign exchange.
There were nearly 7 million "international" visitor arrivals in Hong Kong last year — an increase of 15.8% over 1991. Tourism receipts totalled HK$48 billion — representing a healthy 22% rise over the previous year.
Arrivals increased from all major markets. The general trend was that more people were travelling again after the impact of the Gulf War, but per capita spending figures reflected continued restraint in recessionary times.
Business remained sound for Hong Kong's hotels. Although the number of rooms available for sale per day increased by 10.5% to a total of 33 500 at the end of the year, average room occupancy rose from 75% in 1991 to 82% last year.
The Hong Kong Tourist Association pursued a comprehensive marketing programme, with a two-pronged strategy. The first was to maximize the number of visitors by developing new markets and market segments and by refining the traditional ones. The second was to increase visitors' stays by
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planning and encouraging the development of the tourism product and actively marketing it.
The Hong Kong Convention and Incentive Travel Bureau continued to market successfully the territory as the ideal venue for conventions, exhibitions, meetings and incentive travel. Perhaps the highlight of 1992 was our hosting of the 75th Lions Clubs International Convention, which alone drew some 25 000 people, thus becoming the largest gathering ever hosted in the territory.
In relation to Hong Kong's tourism product, the HKTA also focussed attention on the important process of its continual expansion and development — which is essential if the territory is to stay ahead of the competition, and meet the needs of today's tourist — and introduced a number of new products aimed at broadening Hong Kong's appeal beyond the familiar.
Also in Hong Kong, we maintained our efforts to upgrade local standards of service and enhance public awareness of tourism.
Turning now to this year, many here today will know that in April this year we started including China nationals in our visitor arrival statistics. Although the number of such visitors had been growing significantly, it was only in March that regulations concerning taking currency out of the country were relaxed, thus enhancing significantly their economic contribution to Hong Kong.
So, combining those from China with those from elsewhere, total visitor arrivals for the first eight months of this year are up by 14%. Visitor arrivals from China increased by an impressive 67% to reach 1.1 million; this is now our second largest market, after Taiwan, and will undoubtedly be our biggest source of visitor arrivals in the near future. Tourism receipts from "international" markets in the first half of this year were up 8.9%, with visitor spending up from all major markets except Japan. The average hotel occupancy for the first eight months was 85%, an increase of four points in spite of a growth in capacity of 4%. Hong Kong's hotel room supply is in a period of consolidation. The hotel business is cyclical by nature and we urge the private sector to consider investing at this time, to reap the dividends in the future. The room stock is not likely to meet demand and the HKTA hopes the Government will offer incentives to the hotel business in the form of earmarked land on the future reclamations, such as West Kowloon, Central and Western, and Wan Chai. A specific allocation for hotels would provide tangible support for the tourism industry, at a time when land prices are becoming a deterrent to new projects.
The overall outlook for travel and tourism, the world's number one industry, is encouraging. We in Hong Kong are in a great position to take advantage of this, not least as a springboard to China. We will work increasingly closely with the tourism authorities in China, in developing mutually beneficial promotional strategies. Contacts have been made, but at this
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early stage there is considerable groundwork to be covered and much to work out. As demand for China as a travel destination steadily mounts, Hong Kong will increasingly benefit.
We are confident that the industry will make an ever-growing contribution to the territory's economic prosperity in the years to come, as long as Hong Kong is tenacious in protecting its many tourism assets and is competitive in holding on to its top-destination status.
Thank you.
The Government Minute in response to the Report of the Public Accounts Committee dated July 1993
CHIEF SECRETARY: Mr President, laid on the table today is the Government Minute responding to the 20th Report of the Public Accounts Committee on the results of value for money audits completed between October 1992 and February 1993. The Minute reports the action taken, or about to be taken, by the Government upon the conclusions and recommendations contained in the report.
I would like to thank Mr Peter WONG, the Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee, for his kind comments on the Controlling Officers' co-operative and open minded attitude and prompt response towards questions and suggestions.
Mr President, the Government appreciates fully the importance of the PAC's findings and recommendations, and will certainly continue to work closely with the Audit Department and the Public Accounts Committee in the quest for further improvements in the cost-effectiveness and efficiency of our public service. I am confident that the measures we have taken, or are planning to take, will go a long way towards achieving this end.
Report of the Public Accounts Committee on the Report of the Director of Audit on the Ex-Gratia Compensation for the clearance of the Kowloon Walled City (PAC Report No. 20A)
MR PETER WONG: Mr President, on behalf of the Public Accounts Committee, I have the honour to table the Committee's Report No. 20A today.
This Report by the Public Accounts Committee responds to paragraphs 5.1 to 5.20 of the Director of Audit's Report No. 20 concerning "Ex-gratia compensation for the clearance of the Kowloon Walled City."
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The Director of Audit's Report No. 20 was tabled in this Council in April 1993 and the corresponding PAC Report No. 20 was tabled on 21 July 1993. Little was said in the Report No. 20 on the subject concerning "Ex-gratia compensation for the clearance of the Kowloon Walled City" because our Committee had yet to conclude our investigations on this topic. I am pleased to report that our Committee has now finalized our deliberations on this issue and our conclusions and recommendations are contained in our Report No. 20A tabled today.
Mr President, it is not my intention this afternoon to go over all the conclusions and recommendations of our Committee. However, on behalf of the Committee, I would like to highlight the concern of our Committee that there appears to be a tendency that when funding approval is sought from the Finance Committee for various projects, the Finance Committee has not always been provided with all necessary details in making its decision. This is an area in which our Committee considers immediate improvements are called for.
Mr President, I trust that the recommendations in our Report No. 20A will be accepted.
Oral answers to questions
Local Ordinances inconsistent with the Basic Law
1. MISS EMILY LAU asked (in Cantonese): A study report drafted by the legal sector has pointed out that as many as 64 Ordinances in our existing local legislation may need to be amended before 1997 since they are inconsistent with the Basic Law. Will the Government inform this Council:
(a) how many local ordinances are inconsistent with the Basic Law;
(b) what specific plan is in hand to amend those Ordinances which are inconsistent with the Basic Law before the latter comes into force; and
(c) in this connection, whether the Government has any problem in the interpretation of the relevant provisions in the Basic Law; if so, how the Government solves such problems?
ATTORNEY GENERAL: Mr President, the answers to Miss LAU's questions are as follows:
(a) There are nearly 600 Ordinances on the Hong Kong statute book. Of these, the majority will require adaptation in varying degrees to ensure their consistency both with the language and with the substantive provisions of the Basic Law.
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(b) We have an adaptation of laws programme to amend the Hong Kong Ordinances that would be inconsistent with the Basic Law. Under this programme, an initial review of all the Ordinances by the respective policy branches is first carried out, followed by detailed study and analysis by the Localization and Adaptation of Laws Unit of my Chambers. Proposals for the adaptation of individual Ordinances are then drawn up and discussed with the Chinese side in the Joint Liaison Group. The proposals will form the schedules of a number of Bills for enactment by this Council in the next three years to take effect from 1 July 1997.
(c) The Basic Law does not enter into force until 1 July 1997. Under its provisions, the Basic Law will be interpreted by the courts of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region, or in certain circumstances by the Standing Committee of the National People's Congress. In preparing the required adaptations of our laws to achieve consistency with the Basic Law, we obviously have to take a view on the meaning of certain of its provisions. To ensure that our view coincides with that of the Chinese side we have undertaken to consult them. Clearly, if agreement can be reached with the Chinese side on the adaptation of Hong Kong's laws for compatibility with the Basic Law, that would be the best means of ensuring that none of our laws will be declared to be in contravention with the Basic Law by the Standing Committee of the National People's Congress under Article 160 of the Basic Law.
MISS EMILY LAU: Mr President, in his reply, the Attorney General referred to discussions with the Chinese Government, in the Joint Liaison Group (JLG), on localization and adaptation of laws. Unfortunately, he did not go on to elucidate what the Governor meant in his policy address delivered last week when he told us that the work has been bogged down and there is a high risk that if the work is not finished before 1997, Hong Kong will face a legal vacuum. Mr President, will the Attorney General tell this Council whether there is a real likelihood of this legal vacuum which the Governor referred to? And more importantly, what are the possible disastrous consequences of such a vacuum?
ATTORNEY GENERAL: Mr President, the work entailed in adaptation of our laws, and also localization of our laws, which Miss LAU has also mentioned in her supplementary question, is of a vast and complex nature. The British side in the JLG has consistently reminded the Chinese side of the need to speed up progress in dealing with these areas, which are of vital concern to the continuation of the legal system in Hong Kong. The work, as I say, is on a vast scale and much of it is complex. We have just over three years left to go before 1 July 1997. Clearly, it is in everybody's interest that these complex but technical subjects — technical and not political subjects — should be tackled on
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 13 October 1993 128 both sides with a real commitment to seeing the job completed before 1 July 1997.
MR TAM YIU-CHUNG (in Cantonese): Mr President, according to the Attorney General, the work concerned is very important and is on a vast scale. As this is such a mammoth task and the work itself is so important, when did the Administration actually start its work? Why does it give one the impression that the Administration has "started" it very late?
ATTORNEY GENERAL: If I can confine that question to adaptation of laws, because I think that would help to put it into context, Mr President. The object of the adaptation of laws exercise is to ensure that our laws — our Ordinances, our regulations, the 20 000 pages, the 20 feet of bookshelves occupied by Ordinances — will achieve a smooth transition on 1 July 1997, and be in harmony with the Basic Law. It is important to ensure certainty and consistency in our laws so that those who use them can turn to the statute book in the sure knowledge of knowing what the law is and what it is going to be on 1 July 1997.
Clearly, work could not be undertaken until the Basic Law was promulgated. As Mr TAM would know, the Basic Law was promulgated in the spring of 1990. Although we had some preliminary work undertaken before that, work started in earnest in that year and consisted, as I have said, in an initial survey of all Ordinances and subsidiary legislation — 20 000 pages — to see where possible inconsistencies with the Basic Law are. So, far from starting this exercise late, we started it quite some time ago. We are now at that I call the second phase when the initial study has been completed. We are in the position of handing over to the Chinese side, in the JLG, position papers on Ordinances. And we will continue to ensure that there is a steady stream of papers going to the Chinese side, covering the matters that I have just described.
MR MARTIN BARROW: Mr President, could the Attorney General tell us a little bit more about the work of the Localization and Adaptation of Laws Unit? For example, does it have enough staff to cope with this mammoth task and how many revised Ordinances have so far been drawn up and discussed with the Chinese?
ATTORNEY GENERAL: The work of the Localization and Adaptation of Laws Unit in my Chambers, Mr President, is primarily concerned with, first of all, assisting branches in identifying those Ordinances, or those parts of Ordinances, which may be inconsistent with the Basic Law. Then having done that, the Unit will prepare papers for the JLG, describing the background, the provisions of the Basic Law that are affected and the revision to the Ordinances that need to be amended. Eventually — we have not got there yet — the Unit will also be concerned with the drafting of the Bills for presentation to this
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Council. As for resources, I hope, Mr President, that what I have said this afternoon indicates, or gives the Council some indication of, the size of the task that is ahead of us. And as the Governor said in his address last week, we will be seeking additional resources for that Unit to ensure that this very important work is completed in good order, in an efficient manner and on time.
MR MARTIN BARROW: Mr President, as to the last part of my question, could the Attorney General inform this Council how many revised Ordinances have so far been drawn up?
ATTORNEY GENERAL: Mr President, I am sorry I did not make that clear. We have not yet presented any Bills to this Council. A number of papers, 10 to be precise, have been handed over to the Chinese side in the JLG.
MR SIMON IP: Mr President, in relation to the adaptation exercise, obviously there would be a lot of amendments which will be very straightforward and non-controversial, such as removal of the word "Crown" or "royal" or even "the office of Attorney General." What does the Attorney General think would be the situation if no agreement can be reached in the JLG in relation to adaptation of laws? Can he give us some concrete examples of the specific areas which would be important and which may leave a legal vacuum to the detriment of Hong Kong?
ATTORNEY GENERAL: Mr President, Mr IP is, of course, quite right in saying that a large part of the work does involve terminology or nomenclature, such as changing "Governor" to "Chief Executive" and getting rid of "the Attorney General" and replacing the term with "the Secretary for Justice". There are other substantive areas that go beyond terminology or nomenclature. Were there to be no agreement or were we not able to harmonize our laws with the Basic Law, then there would be a high risk of those laws being declared, by the National People's Congress, as being incompatible with the Basic Law and therefore being repealed. One would not wish to speculate but some of the Ordinances that go beyond terminology involve Crown land, Crown proceedings, the right of abode, nationality, postage stamps and so on. And these are matters which require considerable thought and discussion. But as I said, and if I may repeat, Mr President, provided we speed up progress in the JLG and have constructive dialogue, there is no reason why this work should not be completed on time.
MR JAMES TO (in Cantonese): Mr President, the Attorney General has said in paragraph (c) of his reply that in considering the adaptations of our laws, we have undertaken to consult the Chinese side to ensure that our view coincides with theirs. I would like to ask what "the Chinese side" means to the
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Hong Kong or British Government? Does it mean the Chinese Government; or does it include the consultative bodies of the Chinese Government? If our understanding of the provisions of the Basic Law is different from that of the Chinese side, how should we handle such difference? Are we going to insist on our view as to whether certain existing provisions are to be amended or not; or are we going to follow the interpretation of the Chinese side in respect of amendments or no amendments to the provisions concerned? For example, the Chinese Government has made it clear that it has not excluded the possibility of repealing the Bill of Rights Ordinance. May I know what attitude of the Hong Kong Governemnt is in this regard?
PRESIDENT: Attorney General, are you able to answer?
ATTORNEY GENERAL: Yes, Mr President, thank you. Our discussions with the Chinese side are, of course, taken properly in the JLG and that is because these matters are those which, under the Sino-British Joint Declaration, are required to be discussed in the JLG. These are matters that affect — vitally affect — the smooth transition on 1 July 1997. So our dealings with the Chinese side are with our Chinese colleagues in the JLG.
Mr President, Mr TO has referred specifically to the Bill of Rights and I think he has asked me — but he will confirm it if I have got that wrong — whether the Bill of Rights will be consistent with the Basic Law. When we were drafting the Bill of Rights, we took great pains to ensure that it would be consistent with the Basic Law. Article 39 of the Basic Law provides for the continued applicability of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights to the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region (SAR) as it is currently applied to Hong Kong and that the Covenant should be implemented through the laws of the SAR. And, of course, that is precisely what the Bill of Rights does.
Discrimination against the disabled
2. DR CONRAD LAM asked (in Cantonese): Will the Government inform this Council what specific measures it has in hand to solve the problem of discrimination now being suffered by the disabled?
SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE: Mr President, discrimination against persons on the ground of disability may be classified into two broad categories. The first one is direct discrimination which occurs when a person is treated less favourably on the basis of his or her disability than a person without the disability, in circumstances that are the same or not materially different. Here disability is used explicitly as the basis for the action taken. The second category is indirect discrimination which occurs when a condition or
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requirement is imposed which unfairly impinges upon people with disabilities even if that was not its actual intention.
It is difficult to keep track of the extent and nature of the problem of discrimination against people with disabilities in the territory. But recent objection by local residents to the setting up of rehabilitation facilities in certain districts manifests clearly that discrimination is a real problem, albeit a localized problem. People with disabilities have a right to benefit from these rehabilitation services. I would like to pay tribute to them and to their advocates who have acted with dignity and restraint in the face of such discrimination.
There have been calls earlier this year for the enactment of anti-discrimination legislation to protect the rights of people with disabilities. Members may recall that during the motion debate on integration of rehabilitation services on 19 May 1993, I told this Council that public education is the most effective way to eradicate prejudice. I also talked about the issue of anti-discrimination legislation. I said that, and I quote, "it would, indeed, be a sorry day for Hong Kong if we had to resort to this big stick to try to change minds and attitudes". I did not, however, rule it out altogether and went on to say that "we may well have to do it".
The recent incident in which a Parents Resource Centre in Tung Tau Estate was vandalized is clearly unacceptable. It has called for a rethink on our way forward. To achieve integration and equal opportunities for people with disabilities, we are determined to do what can practically be done to eradicate discrimination.
We have strengthened, and will continue to strengthen, public education on rehabilitation. We have already secured $11 million from various funding sources for launching more than 20 major public education activities over the next two years. As announced by the Governor in his policy address last week, we will spend an additional $20 million on public education over the next three years. The increase in spending on public education between now and 1996-97, totalling $31 million, is substantial. It underlines our resolve to eliminate prejudice against people with disabilities.
Our public education activities focus on the special needs of ex-mentally ill and mentally handicapped persons. These activities are targeted at district residents. In collaboration with non-governmental organizations, the Committee on Public Education in Rehabilitation has just reviewed its public educational strategy. The Committee has also put in place a comprehensive system for monitoring the progress, and evaluating the effectiveness, of public education activities. It is hoped that evaluation results will enable the Committee to target its resources with greater precision and effectiveness.
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It is crucial to imbue young people in their formative years with proper understanding about and attitudes towards people with disabilities. The Education Department has over the years attached great importance to this aspect. Topics related to people with disabilities have been included in the existing curriculum at both primary and secondary levels. A new subject, "General Studies", will be introduced in primary schools in September 1996. Topics will include the nature, needs, rights and potential contribution of people with disabilities.
Schools are also encouraged to organize various extracurricular activities, including, the Sister Schools Scheme and Community Youth Club, to enhance students' understanding about people with disabilities. To promote the acceptance of people with disabilities, a new Education Television special programme is being prepared. It will be ready for transmission in schools in March 1994.
The most pressing problem we are facing is direct discrimination in the form of overt prejudice, which in some cases has taken the form of physical harassment. That is to say, people with disabilities, as distinct from, for example, the elderly and the young, are being obstructed from receiving rehabilitation services funded by the general public. To tackle this particular problem, I hope to aim at early next year for a decision to be reached on anti discrimination legislation and the scope it should take to best suit local needs and circumstances.
Let me reassure this Council that we, in the meantime, will continue to take the lead to uphold the rights of people with disabilities. We will continue to proceed with those rehabilitation projects which have met with local objection. We will continue our efforts to bring concerned residents round to accepting those projects.
Finally, I would point out that to eliminate effectively discrimination against people with disabilities, we need firm support from the public at large. I would like to take today's opportunity to urge ordinary citizens to give us that support. Integration of people with disabilities into the community is, and will continue to be, in the best interests of all.
DR CONRAD LAM (in Cantonese): Mr President, it was mentioned in the fourth paragraph of the Secretary's reply that the Administration's objective was to achieve integration and equal opportunities for people with disabilities. Would the Administration inform this Council what role it will play in the provision of jobs for the disabled?
SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE: Mr President, as I mentioned in my main reply, the most pressing problem we are facing is direct discrimination. Disabled persons are being excluded from, or denied, the
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benefits of rehabilitation services because of concerned residents' discrimination. Anti discrimination legislation, if enacted, would provide legal recourse to redress such discrimination. As regards employment, I believe more and more employers are willing to recruit disabled persons so long as they meet the job requirements. Statistics kept in the Selective Placement Division of the Labour Department reveal a record high of 1 366 placements for disabled persons in 1992, representing an increase of 25.3% over the 1 090 placements in 1991. But this is not any cause for complacency. I think we should continue to try hard. A lot of the money on publicity and education will be devoted to encouraging employers in Hong Kong to engage, at the work place, many more people with disabilities.
MR HUI YIN-FAT (in Cantonese): Mr President, the Secretary informed this Council just now that the Administration would spend $31 million on public education to eliminate prejudice against people with disabilities over the next few years. May I ask the Secretary how the Administration will encourage the disabled and the parents' groups concerned to participate in such public education and promotional activities?
SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE: Mr President, I am grateful for this question, which is a very important one. Broadly speaking, the objective of public education and promotional activities is to reach out, through certain programmes and publicity efforts, to all in the community to have people's attitude changed. May I also say that we should at all times ensure that in drawing up the programmes, whether for schools, for employment or for general outreach, the views of people with disabilities and their parents are very important and should be taken into account. Where possible, the programmes per se should involve the participation of people with disability and/or their parents, as appropriate. This not only is useful in drawing up publicity materials but is important in fulfilling the objective of full participation, as detailed in the Green Paper on Rehabilitation. My colleague, the Commissioner for Rehabilitation, who chairs the Committee on Public Education in Rehabilitation (COMPERE) which is responsible for the formulation of rehabilitation programme and I will ensure that such involvement will take place.
Karaoke lounges
3. DR TANG SIU-TONG asked (in Cantonese): Some karaoke lounges are now excluded from the application of the Clubs (Safety of Premises) Ordinance or any other ordinances and are not subject to any inspection and control with regard to their fire safety standard. Their potential fire risk has presented a cause for concern. Will the Government inform this Council:
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(a) of the number of karaoke lounges that are not subject to any control in this territory as at the end of September this year; the kinds of premises in which they are mostly found;
(b) whether inspections have been conducted by relevant departments to find out if these karaoke lounges are in compliance with the fire safety requirements; if yes, what the findings are; and
(c) whether the Government would consider amending existing legislation or introducing new legislation to bring these karaoke lounges under legislative control?
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY: Mr President, all premises are subject to fire safety requirements under the Buildings Ordinance and the Fire Services Ordinance. This is the case with all karaoke lounges, even though they may not be subject to any special fire safety requirements.
Furthermore, most karaoke lounges operate in restaurants which need to be licensed under the Public Health and Municipal Services Ordinance; or in private clubs which are regulated under the Clubs (Safety of Premises) Ordinance. They, therefore, have to comply with additional fire safety requirements imposed under these two Ordinances and are subject to inspection by the Fire Services Department.
We believe that, as at the end of September this year, some 727 establishments offering karaoke entertainment were in operation. Of these, 495 are operated as clubs or licensed as places providing food and liquor; the remaining 232 are operating only on the basis of a business registration certificate in both residential and commercial premises.
In general, there are no indications that licensed karaoke establishments are failing to comply with fire safety standards, or that they pose a greater fire risk than other premises or establishments. In 1991, there was no major fire in a karaoke establishment; in 1992, there was one major fire in a karaoke establishment, and there has been one so far this year.
As regards the third part of the question, an interdepartmental working group has been set up to study options for the regulation of karaoke lounges. Among other things, a licensing system will be considered, to tackle the problem of underage girls working in karaoke establishments, and to prescribe hygiene, fire and building safety requirements.
DR TANG SIU-TONG (in Cantonese): Mr President, may I refer to the fifth paragraph of the Administration's reply in which it says that a licensing system will be considered to tackle the problem of underage girls working in karaoke establishments. Will the Administration inform this Council of the number of
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underage girls working in karaoke establishments at present? According to recent media reports, there have been incidents of prostitution in these establishments. What measures does the Administration have to deal with the problem?
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY: Mr President, I do not think it is possible to give a precise answer to the first part of that question. What I can say is that in the first six months of this year the police conducted over 1 000 raids on these establishments in West Kowloon and located nearly 900 underage girls in these establishments. I think that is the best I can do to give an indication of the extent of the problem. As I said, we are considering a licensing scheme. The main purpose of that scheme, I think, would be to extend the sort of controls that we have on bars to karaoke establishments. These would therefore include conditions regulating the minimum age, both of persons working in these establishments and of customers in these establishments. So that is something that we are actively looking at at present.
MRS PEGGY LAM (in Cantonese): Mr President, I was to ask the Administration whether it would consider prohibiting underage girls from entering karaoke establishments, but that had been dealt with by the Secretary just now. At present some karaoke establishments are operating only on the basis of a business registration certificate in residential premises. If the licensing scheme is implemented, will the Administration prohibit karaoke establishments from operating in residential premises?
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY: Mr President, I think that really concerns a matter of lease conditions which I am afraid I am not able to answer. But perhaps I could ask the Secretary for Planning, Environment and Lands if he would try to give an answer to that in writing. Certainly, in addition to controls on the employment and exploitation of children in these establishments, there would also be hygiene, building and fire safety requirements and the premises would have to comply with those requirements.
MR HOWARD YOUNG (in Cantonese): Mr President, in response to Mrs Peggy LAM's question just now, the Secretary seemed to have passed the buck to the Secretary for Planning, Environment and Lands. But the main reply clearly indicates that 30% of the 727 karaoke establishments are not operating in restaurants or clubs so as to avoid the specific fire safety requirements. I would like to raise a supplementary on whether the Secretary has considered the fact that the equipment used and the capacity of these establishments are similar to those that operate under a special licence, and will he therefore seek the help of other departments or the Urban Council to formulate standard requirements for all karaoke lounges, so as to protect the safety of all the people concerned?
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SECRETARY FOR SECURITY: Mr President, I think I can only repeat what I have said, and that is that we are looking at a licensing scheme.
MR WONG WAI-YIN (in Cantonese): Mr President, I would like to follow up Mrs Peggy LAM's question. At present, some karaoke lounges in residential premises are operating till midnight or even overnight. It is definite that the noise they cause is a nuisance to nearby residents. What measures does the Secretary have to prevent this?
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY: Mr President, I believe that adequate provisions do exist to control noise nuisance under the Noise Control Ordinance.
Revised localization policy
4. MR HENRY TANG asked: Will the Government inform this Council of:
(a) the reasons for not consulting the relevant staff associations and the Legislative Council prior to the promulgation of the revised localization policy;
(b) the reasons for introducing the revised policy before the existing one has been tested in court vis-a-vis its compliance with the Bill of Rights; and
(c) the measures that will be taken to deal with the problem of division within the Civil Service caused by the introduction of the revised policy?
SECRETARY FOR THE CIVIL SERVICE: Mr President, the answer to these questions are as follows:
(a) The subject of whether civil servants serving on overseas conditions who are permanent residents of Hong Kong should be allowed to transfer to local terms has been debated publicly and thoroughly since January this year. The views of the staff associations, the Public Service Panel and interested parties have been made known to us and we understand their respective positions very well. If we had proceeded to formal consultation this could only have been accomplished by introducing a moratorium on a significant part of the localization policy. It would simply not have been practicable to continue to enforce the old policy once the Government had taken a view, in public, that it was defective. We did not favour the moratorium route because it would have meant, effectively, a policy
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vacuum. A better approach was to introduce an interim policy pending full consultation on longer-term arrangements. We still believe this was the correct decision.
(b) Independent legal advice obtained both locally and overseas strongly suggested that the previous localization policy in so far as it applied to permanent residents of Hong Kong was not compatible with the Bill of Rights. It would have been irresponsible to ignore the advice and to continue to implement a policy which we believed to be defective.
(c) We feel that the reaction to the interim arrangements has been out of proportion to their likely effect. Nevertheless the best ways to heal the divisions are to continue to implement the localization policy vigorously, but fairly, to devise a new package for civil service employment which removes the distinction between local and overseas conditions of service, and to work towards a longer term solution in consultation with interested parties. As Members know, these are the directions in which the Government is moving. In other words we should look to the future and not to the past.
MR HENRY TANG: Mr President, would the Secretary please explain the basis whereon the Government is definitively sure that the localization policy is incompatible with the Bill of Rights and how she intends to continue to vigorously and fairly implement this policy?
SECRETARY FOR THE CIVIL SERVICE: Mr President, the Bill of Rights requires that all permanent residents of Hong Kong should have equal employment opportunities with the Civil Service. Clearly, our previous localization policy, which required us not to offer an officer on overseas agreement terms a renewal of contract if we had a suitable local officer to take over, was in breach of that requirement in the Bill of Rights. And independent legal advice, both here and overseas, clearly suggested that if we continued with this selective localization policy then we would be in breach of the Bill of Rights. We intend to fairly and vigorously implement the localization policy by, on the one hand, offering those who are permanent Hong Kong residents an opportunity to apply to transfer to local terms for one contract, provided they meet certain criteria which are based first of all on their ability to establish permanent Hong Kong residence and on their establishing to our satisfaction that they are suitable in all respects, in other words, based on performance, physical suitability and conduct. And on the other hand, we intend in future, under the interim arrangements and pending consultation on the longer-term arrangements, to give permanent Hong Kong residents an equal opportunity to remain in the Civil Service if they are deemed to be suitable.
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MR HENRY TANG: Mr President, a point of clarification please. Article 21(c) of the Bill of Rights says, and I quote, "to have access on general terms of equality to public service in Hong Kong". It does not spell out that there are equal employment rights as the Secretary has said. Would the Secretary clarify that point, please?
SECRETARY FOR THE CIVIL SERVICE: Mr President, by equal employment access I meant that permanent Hong Kong residents should have an opportunity to apply. Whether that application is accepted by the Government is of course subject to the criteria that I have just now outlined and these are the criteria that we will stick to very rigorously.
MR FRED LI (in Cantonese): Mr President, recently the Civil Service Branch has proposed, as an interim measure, an additional requirement of "Chinese Language proficiency" for expatriate officers applying for transfer to local terms. May I ask the Administration whether imposing such a condition will lead to an accusation of unreasonable measure against the Administration, or an allegation of breach of the Bill of Rights, by the expatriate officers' associations?
SECRETARY FOR THE CIVIL SERVICE: Mr President, we do intend to consider on a selective basis, having regard to requirements in individual departments, as to whether proficiency in the Chinese language should be required. And as the Governor has made clear in his policy address, in the case of the Legal Aid Department, because of the nature of their work we do believe it to be reasonable to require such language proficiency. This applies to the interim arrangements. As regards the longer-term arrangements, we have already stated on numerous occasions that we intend to consult interested parties on the longer-term arrangements and part of these arrangements might well include a language proficiency test. But we have first of all to determine whether a language proficiency test is desirable and, if so, at what level it should be pitched.
MR JAMES TIEN: Mr President, in her reply to Mr Henry TANG, the Secretary mentioned that independent legal advice obtained both locally and overseas strongly suggested that the localization policy was incompatible with the Bill of Rights. Will the Secretary please inform us whether independent legal advice has been obtained, both locally and overseas, as to whether the conversion to local terms arrangement likewise amounts to a breach of the Bill of Rights in that it infringes on the rights of the local civil servants?
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SECRETARY FOR THE CIVIL SERVICE: Mr President, there is no legal advice which says we have been discriminatory in so far as local officers are concerned. The legal advice we have so far obtained relates to the way we have currently been treating those on overseas agreement terms and such advice clearly suggests that if we continue with that policy we will be in breach of the Bill of Rights.
DR SAMUEL WONG: Mr President, the matter in question seems to concentrate on localization rather than, say, on a civil servant engaged on contract terms or permanent terms. Am I not right in saying that in respect of a contract if one side wants to terminate it that will have nothing to do with the Bill of Rights?
SECRETARY FOR THE CIVIL SERVICE: Mr President, that is not correct.
MR TAM YIU-CHUNG (in Cantonese): Mr President, Members of this Council are going to freeze this policy by moving a Private Member's bill. Will the Administration try every means to block the passage of the bill?
PRESIDENT: I think that goes beyond the scope of the original question and answer, Mr TAM. Do you have another question?
MR TAM YIU-CHUNG (in Cantonese): Mr President, if you think I have gone beyond the scope of the original question, may I raise another question?
PRESIDENT: Certainly.
MR TAM YIU-CHUNG (in Cantonese): Though the Administration has stressed that the current policy is an interim measure, civil servants consider that it would have long-term implications. What are the Administration's views in this respect? Moreover, may I obtain two figures in respect of firstly, the number of overseas officers who have their overseas contracts renewed since the implementation of this policy and secondly, the number of overseas officers who have applied for transfer to local terms?
SECRETARY FOR THE CIVIL SERVICE: Mr President, I do stress that the interim arrangements which we have announced are purely interim. We intend only, where suitable, to offer one contract on local terms which will not straddle 1997 and the intention of this interim arrangement is to give us suitable time to consult interested parties and to work out arrangements that are
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acceptable to all parties concerned. Regarding the statistics which Mr TAM has asked about, I do not have the answer to the first part of the question and I will supply a written reply. (Annex I) As regards the answer to the second part of the question, as of 4 October, we have received 81 applications none of which has been approved so far, but they are being examined.
MR SIMON IP: Mr President, paragraph (b) of the Secretary's reply says that legal advice obtained suggests that it would be contrary to the Bill of Rights not to allow overseas officers to convert to local terms. It would seem to me highly arguable that the fact that there are less favourable terms of employment for local officers is also discriminatory. Would it not be right to remove both discriminations at the same time?
SECRETARY FOR THE CIVIL SERVICE: Mr President, I am aware obviously that there are varying legal opinions. But the Government must act on the basis of the best legal advice it has obtained and that is what we have done.
MR HOWARD YOUNG: Mr President, with regard to the reply just now about the 81 applications received so far, can the Secretary clarify whether this number is already past a deadline where it cannot increase or whether more applications can still be forthcoming?
SECRETARY FOR THE CIVIL SERVICE: Mr President, I think this will be an ongoing process. The 81 pertain to applications received as of 4 October. Obviously there will be more applications coming in, but I should take this opportunity to stress again that we do not believe that the net additional numbers that we will get under the modified criteria or policy will be very large.
Residential developments under IDPA and DPA plans
5. DR SAMUEL WONG asked (in Cantonese): Since the introduction of Interim Development Permission Area Plans and Development Permission Area Plans for the New Territories, almost three years have elapsed during which these statutory planning controls have been extended to regulate building development in the New Territories. Will the Government inform this Council:
(a) of the number of sites where planning applications for residential developments have been submitted by land owners;
(b) of these sites, what is the total number of residential units proposed and the total gross floor area (GFA) involved;
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(c) how many such sites have been approved for building development and their total approved GFA; and
(d) as the draft Outline Zoning Plans will soon be published to replace the Development Permission Area Plans, whether there is a policy whereby residential developments will be encouraged to generate a good supply of residential units to meet the high and continuing demand for such accommodation, as evidenced by the recent rampant residential property speculation?
SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS:
Mr President,
(a) Between August 1990 and September 1993, the Planning Department received 572 planning applications for residential developments in areas covered by Interim Development Permission Area Plans and Development Permission Area Plans.
(b) Most of these applications were for small house development, but the precise number of residential units involved cannot be provided without a great deal of detailed research work. Some 2 million sq m of gross floor area were involved.
(c) At the beginning of September 1993,275 out of the 572 applications were approved, involving a total gross floor area of 124 380 sq m. 247 applications were rejected and 50 were withdrawn.
(d) It is the Government's policy to provide an adequate supply of land for all types of development as far as possible. In preparing Outline Zoning Plans to replace the Development Permission Area Plans, the Administration will indeed take account of demand for housing, as well as the provision of infrastructure, accessibility and environmental, traffic and other planning considerations, in zoning land for residential development.
DR SAMUEL WONG (in Cantonese): Mr President, 275 out of the 572 applications were approved accounting for about half of the total number, but they involved a total gross floor area of only 124 000 sq m, that is, about 6% of the 2 million sq m covered by all the applications; in other words, half of the applications were rejected and they represented approximately 94% of the total gross floor area. Will the Administration account for this? Is it the intention of the Administration to make things difficult for large-scale development plans?
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SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS: Mr President, the process of considering and approving applications for Development Permission in Development Permission Areas is a function of the Town Planning Board, as I believe the Honourable Member is aware. The reasons why planning applications are rejected of course vary widely: for example, incompatibility with surrounding land use and planning intention, problems in relation to traffic volume, environmental considerations and infrastructural support and, in some cases, insufficiency of information. I think the disparity between the amount of gross floor area (GFA) covered by approved applications and GFA in respect of applications has nothing to do with a fixed ratio of how many applications should be approved and how much GFA should be approved. It has something to do with the aspirations of applicants and, I think, something to do with a failure on their part to actually conduct sensible planning and feasibility studies before they submit their applications.
MR EDWARD HO: Mr President, would the Secretary agree that a large number of the rejected applications were due to the lack of infrastructure and in that regard would he inform this Council whether the Government is prepared to construct the necessary infrastructure to facilitate residential development?
SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS: Mr President, I do not have an exact figure in relation to the number of applications rejected for various reasons. In fact in many situations it is a combination of reasons. I think the question of inadequacy of infrastructural support for some of these areas is, in many cases, a result of their location. In other words, they are in places where roads of an adequate standard do not exist or water supplies will not be adequate or sewerage connections are not possible at this stage. As to whether we can actually programme in additional infrastructural projects to enable more of these applications to be approved, I think we shall have to wait until the Development Permission Area Plans are replaced by Outline Zoning Plans which, I believe, will then enable us to assess in a rather more organized way what we may need to do by way of infrastructural programmes to permit more development of this kind to take place.
MR EDWARD HO: Mr President, since no infrastructure will be provided to areas where there is no development and since no development would be approved without infrastructure, can the Secretary inform this Council how this vicious circle can be resolved?
SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS: Mr President, I think I actually covered that in the last answer I gave, which was to say that the provision of Outline Zoning Plans will actually enable us to take a rather more organized view of how we should prioritize demand for
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infrastructure in the areas covered by the New Territories Outline Zoning Plans. At that point we will be able to say when infrastructure may be provided to different areas.
Investigation of the Allied Group
6. DR HUANG CHEN-YA asked: In regard to the recent publication of the Government report on the corporate affairs of the Allied Group and its associated companies, will the Government inform this Council whether, and if so, when further action will be taken to ensure that the considerable resources (including $46 million of public money) spent on the investigation will produce more of a result than just a report, so that the interests of minority shareholders and investors are protected?
SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES: Mr President, the Inspector's Report on the Allied Group of Companies was submitted to the Financial Secretary on 28 August 1993 and a substantial part of the Report was made public on 18 September. The Report was promptly referred to the law enforcement and regulatory bodies, as well as the 27 companies involved in the investigation. It is now for them to decide what actions to take within their respective areas of authority and to pursue those actions accordingly.
It would be inappropriate to judge the value of the investigation solely in terms of the amount of money it has cost or of whether any particular actions will be taken against any party involved. The inspector has completed his fact-finding mission meticulously and revealed extensive detail about the specific activities he was asked to investigate. The Report has elicited a positive reaction from both the local and overseas media and has in turn generated a higher level of public awareness regarding corporate governance. Even more importantly, the investigation demonstrates the Administration's determination to use the powers available to it to safeguard the interests of the investing public and to foster the integrity and reputation of the market. Clearly the investigation has already gone well beyond the production of "just a Report".
At this point Mr Jimmy McGREGOR declared an interest as the Chairman of Asia Securities International Limited, which was formerly one of the Allied Group and a company now under investigation.
DR HUANG CHEN-YA (in Cantonese): Mr President, from the Secretary's answer, it seems he is telling us that the Government, by spending $46 million in publishing a report, has already done its part and has not let the public down. If no further action is taken, will the Administration inform this Council what experience has been drawn from this and what recommendations it will make to maintain the good reputation of our financial market?
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SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES: Mr President, I have not said that there will be no follow-up action, quite the reverse. The Report has been put in the hands of the respective enforcement authorities. It is in the hands of the Royal Hong Kong Police Force, the Crown Prosecutor, the Securities and Futures Commission, the Deputy Crown Solicitor, the Stock Exchange of Hong Kong, the Hong Kong Monetary Authority and the Hong Kong Society of Accountants and all of those are studying the Report with a view to deciding whether there is action for them to take and to pursuing such action. I certainly do not wish to belittle the very proper concern for the expenditure of public funds. But I do believe that the expenditure should be looked at in its proper perspective when it is looked at against the size of the markets that are involved in Hong Kong and the sheer volume of money that is in the hands of the companies that are registered here. We have a stock market which can have a turnover of up to $8 billion in a single day. I would have thought that $46 million set against that context was a small price to pay for policing in a small way the standards of corporate governance here.
MR MICHAEL HO (in Cantonese): Mr President, may I ask a follow-up question on when and under what circumstances the Financial Services Branch is going to take further action, or what specific actions the Financial Services Branch is going to take at this stage?
SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES: Mr President, the Branch has remained, since the production of the Report, in close contact with the regulatory authorities and with the enforcement authorities that I have mentioned. And we are closely monitoring the progress, not only of their activities but also of the reaction of the 27 companies concerned. Those companies have been given until the end of October to let us know — that is to say, us on behalf of the Financial Secretary — what they are intending to do themselves about it before we consider taking any further action ourselves.
At this point Mr LAU Wah-sum declared interest as a non-executive director of the Allied Group.
MISS EMILY LAU: Mr President, will the Secretary inform this Council when the rest of the Report will be published and also what steps have been taken to recover the $46 million?
SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES: Mr President, the part of the Report that has not been published, which runs to some 140 pages or so, contains material which, if it were to be released now, would be prejudicial to the outcome of possible future legal proceedings. And for that reason it has been withheld for the time being. It is also for the same reason that I cannot
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give details of precisely what action is in train at the moment, what charges are contemplated, against whom they will be brought and when. But Members can be assured that it is our intention to publish the full Report as soon as the risk of prejudicing the outcome of possible future legal actions has passed. As to recovery of costs, there are provisions in the Companies Ordinance for the recovery of costs, but these do have some limitations. They, for example, can be invoked against any persons convicted by a court or a magistrate on a prosecution instituted as a result of the investigation. And it is our intention again to exhaust every means to recover the costs in that way, but it will depend on the outcome of legal process and it is too soon to say yet where that will go.
MR JAMES TO (in Cantonese): Mr President, in terms of interests of investors, very often minority investors have less negotiating power than entrepreneurs and leaders of big business groups and it is the interests of the former that the Government has to protect. The Secretary said in his reply that the investigation demonstrated the Administration's determination to use the powers available to it to safeguard the interests of the investing public. I would like to ask two questions in this connection. First, notwithstanding that there are already provisions under the Companies Ordinance empowering the Financial Secretary to look into a company's accounts, is the Administration going to conduct an overall review of the laws of Hong Kong to see if there are sufficient powers under our legislation to protect the interests of investors? I said this because the Government seems to be at its wits' end as to how to deal with complaints from investors in connection with "placement of shares" or "actions which dilute investors' interests". Second, this is a case evident enough that enabled the Financial Secretary to exercise this sort of power. But may I ask if the Administration has the resolve to investigate even isolated complaints from investors, and in the light of its findings, exercise such powers where appropriate to protect the interests of investors?
PRESIDENT: I think your question goes way beyond the scope of the original question and answer, Mr TO.
MR JAMES TO (in Cantonese): Mr President, I would like to clarify because the interpreter may have failed to get my point. In fact, this incident which concerned the Allied Group (referring mainly to the second part) was brought to light because there was someone capable of presenting to the authorities such facts and details in a convincing, systematic and logical manner that could satisfy the authorities that there was a prima facie case, and that there was a need to invoke the Companies Ordinance which confers such power to carry out investigations. The point I tried to make was that there were in fact many more such cases and complaints from individual investors than we might have known. The fact that minority investors may not have the money and resources to hire lawyers, or that they are incapable of presenting the case in a logical and
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systematic manner, may be the difficulties the Administration faces in using its powers to protect the interests of these investors.
PRESIDENT: I think you are still going beyond the scope of the original question which is really in relation to the cost of the investigation and its consequences.
Written answers to questions
Prosecution of newspaper vendors selling Class II articles
7. MR TIK CHI-YUEN asked (in Chinese): Will the Government inform this Council of the number of newspaper vendors who have been prosecuted for selling Class II articles to young people aged below 18 since the enactment of the Control of Obscene and Indecent Articles Ordinance?
SECRETARY FOR RECREATION AND CULTURE: Mr President, no newspaper vendors have been prosecuted for the selling of "Class II articles" to people below the age of 18 since the Control of Obscene and Indecent Articles Ordinance was enacted.
"Cost rent" of public housing estates
8. MR TAM YIU-CHUNG asked (in Chinese): The existing "cost rents" of public housing estates in the urban area and the New Territories are $65.20 and $60 per sq m respectively. Will the Government inform this Council why there is a difference in "cost rent" between the two areas; what methodology is adopted and what factors are taken into consideration in calculating "cost rent"?
SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS: Mr President, "cost rent" has no direct bearing on the rents set for the Housing Authority's estates which take into account such factors as tenants' affordability, comparative estate values, inflation, general household income trends, management and maintenance expenditure and rates. It is the theoretical level at which rents would have to be set to recover to amortized capital cost and operating expenses in the provision of public rental housing. In practice, the rents charged are lower than the cost rent figures which are used only as a point of reference for rent setting.
The cost rent figures for newly completed estates are derived from tender prices for individual building projects and their provisional rateable values. It follows that the cost rent figures for new estates, and hence groups of estates in the urban area and the New Territories, are different.
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As regards methodology and factors taken into consideration, the capital cost comprises building cost, fees, overheads, as well as interest charges during construction. It is depreciated (on a straight line basis) over the expected life-span of the building over 40 years with interest at 5%. Added to this are the operating expenses made up of management, maintenance charges and provisional rates and so on. The two components put together become the annual cost needed to produce and upkeep a batch of estates, which is then translated into an average monthly cost rent for comparison purposes in rent setting exercises.
Effective use of funds
9. MR CHEUNG MAN-KWONG asked (in Chinese): As regards the approval of funds by the Finance Committee (FC) of the Legislative Council, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) of the applications for funds approved by FC in respect of Public Works Programme in the past five years, the number of approved items under which funds have not been used or programmes unimplemented; the titles and scheduled dates of usage of funds or implementation/completion in respect of these items, as well as the amounts approved and their respective dates of
approval;
(b) of the reasons for not using the funds or implementing the programme under each of these items; and whether the Government has consequently sustained any pecuniary loss or damage in credibility;
(c) whether the Administration intends to reapply to FC for funds in respect of those items mentioned in (b) above; if so, please state the reasons for reapplying and the amounts sought; and
(d) what mechanism the Government has to ensure the effective use of these funds and that the programmes will achieve the anticipated result and required quality?
SECRETARY FOR THE TREASURY: Mr President, the Directors of the New Airport Project Co-ordination Office, Architectural Services Department, Drainage Services Department, Civil Engineering Department, Environmental Protection Department, Highways Department, Territory Development Department and the Water Supplies Department have reviewed all public works projects under their control where funds were approved by the Finance Committee in the last five years. In response to the four points raised in the Honourable Member's question,
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 13 October 1993 148
(a) there are 13 public works projects where funds approved by the Finance Committee remain as yet unused; further details are given in the table at Annex. Projects funded in 1993 have been excluded on the grounds that it normally takes at least six to nine months, following the Finance Committee's approval, to tender and award a contract and make the first payment to the contractor;
(b) funds remain unused on projects because
(i) land resumption has taken longer than anticipated on two projects;
(ii) three projects have been entrusted to other agencies to carry out and payment is only made when the work has been completed to the Government's satisfaction;
(iii) four projects are Build-Operate-Transfer where staged payments are made against specified contract milestones. The first payment is typically only made nine to 18 months after construction commences;
(iv) two projects are awaiting resolution between the Chinese and British Governments; and
(v) two projects have been funded from other sources.
There are no projects that involve any pecuniary loss or damage in credibility for the Government;
(c) there should be no need to reapply to the Finance Committee for extra funds, other than the usual fashion where extra work items unforeseen at the tender stage cannot be absorbed within the project contingency sums approved by the Finance Committee; and
(d) where for any reason funds remain unused within a public works project, these are normally reallocated to fund new projects as part of the Government's annual resource allocation exercise. Actual expenditure of these reallocated funds is subject to the Finance Committee's approval to upgrading the new projects to Category A in the Public Works Programme. As regards delivery of projects, as announced in the Financial Secretary's 1993 Budget speech, the Secretary for Works has been made responsible for chairing the Public Works Progress Committee which has the specific task of monitoring progress on public works projects and introducing remedial action where this might be necessary.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 13 October 1993 149 Annex
Project
title
Director of
Architectural Services
Cost
$ million
Date of FC approval
Forecast start date
Actual
start date
Revised
start date Remarks
(a) 80 Correctional Services Department quarters at Pik Uk
(b) Neighbour
Community
Centre in
Sai Tso Wan
(c) Provision of
social welfare
facilities in Yau
Ma Tei Six Streets
Redevelopment
Director of Territory Development
(a) Container
Terminal No.9 —
engineering works
for back-up area and infrastructure
(b) Duplicate Tsing Yi South Bridge
(c) Sam Shing bus terminal
(d) Sha Tin
New Town —
Stage II: Servicing
and extension of
Pai Tau Village in
Area 6A
Director of
Environmental Protection
(a) Development
of Northeast New
Territories Landfill
(b) Sha Tin refuse transfer station
73.9 July 1992 03/93 01/94 Land resumption time longer than
anticipated
17.01 June 1988 09/91 Work entrusted to Ranon Limited — a
subsidiary of
Cheung Kong
Holding Limited
with first payment
not due until 11/93
13.46 Jan 1992 09/92 Work entrusted to Hong Kong
Housing Society
with first payment
due in 03/95
2 710 June 1992 11/93 Awaiting resolution of CT9 between
Chinese and British
Governments
785 June 1992 11/93 - ditto -
5.2 July 1990 10/91 Work entrusted to KCRC substantially
completed but
payment not yet
made
11.2 May 1992 03/94 Objections received to land resumptions
which require
resolution
1 841 June 1992 BOT contract with first payment due in
early 95. Tenders
now being
evaluated
222 April 1992 BOT contract with first payment due in
December 94
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 13 October 1993 150
Project title
Cost
$ million
Date of FC approval
Forecast start date
Actual
start date
Revised
start date Remarks
(C) Development of West New Territories Landfill
(d) Development of Southeast New
Territories Landfill
Director of Highways
(a) Container Terminal No.8 — land access and associated works
(b) Elevated road to Kennedy Town —
advance works
2 675 Nov 1991 BOT contract with first payment due in
12/93
3 220 Feb 1992 BOT contract with firstpayment due in
9/94
44 June 1990 Agreed that CT8 Grantee should
carry out this work
at no cost to
Government. The
item will be deleted
from the PWP and
the funds released
for the new projects.
10.1 Feb 1992 Agreed that franchisee of
Western Harbour
Crossing would
carry out the work
at no cost to
Government. The
funds released will
be used for new
projects.
Localization policy in tertiary institutions
10. MR FRED LI asked (in Chinese): Regarding the implementation of a localization policy in tertiary institutions, will the Government inform this Council whether it is aware of the respective numbers of local and expatriate lecturers in these institutions at present; the disparity in the terms of employment between their local and expatriate staff; and the mechanisms and plans through which the Government encourages these institutions to employ more local staff?
SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER: Mr President, the nine tertiary institutions in Hong Kong are statutory bodies and have institutional autonomy in the selection and management of their staff.
These institutions appoint their academic staff on the basis of their academic strength and expertise, professional qualifications, teaching and research experience, personal qualities and, for certain disciplines, international links as well. Some institutions give priority to local candidates where such candidates satisfy the institution's appointment requirements equally well as those from overseas. Others recruit their academic staff on an international
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 13 October 1993 151 basis with no regard to such other attributes as race, nationality, or place of origin.
The table at Annex gives the number of academic staff employed in these institutions on local or expatriate terms for the 1993-94 academic year.
The differences in terms of employment between academic staff on local terms and those on overseas terms are mainly in eligibility for passage and baggage allowances, housing benefits and overseas education allowance. The terms and conditions of service for these institutions' overseas staff must be kept similar to those offered to expatriate staff in the Civil Service.
In April 1993, the Open Learning Institute became self-funding and is no longer required to keep its terms and conditions of service similar to those of the Civil Service. The OLI is currently in the process of reviewing its total remuneration package with a view to introducing a new remuneration package with common terms and conditions of service for local and overseas staff.
Annex
Number of local and overseas academic staff*
employed by tertiary institutions# in 1993-94
Institutions
No. of local academic staff
No. of overseas academic staff
Total no. of academic staff
CPHK 463 181 644 HKBC 218 60 278 HKP 744 159 903 LC 79 34 113 CUHK 450 265 715 HKUST 137 166 303 HKU 297 309 606 OLI 40 11 51 HKAPA 35 36 71 Total 2 463 1 221 3 684
* Local and overseas academic staff are defined by reference to their terms of employment which may vary slightly from institution to institution.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 13 October 1993 152 # The tertiary institutions are:
CPHK City Polytechnic of Hong Kong
HKBC Hong Kong Baptist College
HKP Hong Kong Polytechnic
LC Lingnan College
CUHK The Chinese University of Hong Kong
HKUST The Hong Kong University of Science and Technology
HKU University of Hong Kong
OLI Open Learning Institute
HKAPA Hong Kong Academy for Performing Arts
Automatic teller machines
11. DR HUANG CHEN-YA asked: Will the Government inform this Council:
(a) whether banks are required by regulation to ensure the proper functioning and maintenance of automatic teller machines; if so, please provide details; and
(b) what measures are available to safeguard customers who use such machines against financial loss caused by mechanical or computer errors and whether an independent channel of appeal exists to settle disputes between the bank and its customers arising from the use of such machines?
SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES: Mr President,
(a) There is no specific industry-wide regulation on the functioning and maintenance of automatic teller machines (ATMs). Individual banks invariably have their own internal regulations to prevent mechanical failure or tampering, as it is in their interest to ensure the reliability and integrity of this important service mechanism.
(b) The ATMs and the protection methods employed in Hong Kong are in line with those adopted by other leading financial centres. Standard safety features include the use of encrypted personal identification numbers, encryption of sensitive transaction data and other internal audit measures. These offer protection to the banks as well as their customers.
Incidents of error are few, but a customer in dispute with a bank over ATM transactions may in the first instance approach the Consumer Council. Customers may also seek redress through the courts, as in the case of disputes over other commercial transactions.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 13 October 1993 153 Filipino drivers
12. DR SAMUEL WONG asked: Will the Government inform this Council:
(a) how many Filipinos have been allowed to come to Hong Kong to work as drivers/chauffeurs during the last two years; of these, how many are male;
(b) whether these Filipino drivers are required to under go a driving test in Hong Kong before taking up employment as drivers/chauffeurs; and
(c) how many traffic accidents reported during the last 12 months have involved drivers/chauffeurs imported from the Philippines?
SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT: Mr President,
(a) Over the past two years, only two persons from the Philippines have been admitted into Hong Kong under the Importation of Labour Scheme for employment as drivers. Both are male.
(b) They were required to take driving tests, conducted by the Transport Department under the Road Traffic (Driving Licences) Regulations Cap 374. Both passed and were issued with a driving licence before they took up employment.
This same requirement will apply to Filipinos coming to Hong Kong for employment as drivers under the Importation of Labour Scheme in future.
(c) Because traffic accident statistics do not show the ethnic origin of the drivers involved, such information is not available.
Application for operation of subsidized schools
13. DR PHILIP WONG asked (in Chinese): Will the Government inform this Council of:
(a) the conditions and qualifications required of an organization before it is eligible for making an application to operate a subsidized school;
(b) the number of organizations which have submitted applications for the operation of subsidized schools and the time required to process each of these applications; and
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 13 October 1993 154
(c) the criteria for acceding to the request of an individual organization seeking priority in respect of its application?
SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER: Mr President,
(a) To be eligible to apply for operating a school under the Codes of Aid, an organization:
(i) must be incorporated under the Companies Ordinance. Its Memorandum and Articles of Association must contain standard clauses specified by the Education Department. These refer mainly to prudential control and the appointment of the school management committee; and
(ii) must have obtained tax exemption under section 88 of the Inland Revenue Ordinance, that is the organization must be a non-profit-making entity.
(b) As at 30 September 1993, 134 and 77 organizations have applied for the allocation of primary and secondary schools respectively. The time between the initial application and allocation depends on individual circumstances. Of the 211 applications received to date, 136 were submitted more than five years ago, 72 between one and five years, and the remaining three were submitted in the past year.
(c) Each of the eligible applications will be considered on its own merits. The decision to allocate schools to individual applicants will be made having regard to the following criteria:
(i) whether the allocation would result in quality education being provided. To ensure proper management and efficient operation, a new school would only be allocated to an organization with experience in education, proven competence, reliability and a sound financial footing;
(ii) whether the allocation would assist in the smooth implementation of approved policies. For example, it is the Government's policy to reprovision schools in areas of declining demand to areas of rising demand. In such cases, the claims of existing school operators would be considered;
(iii) whether the allocation would provide a wider range of choices for parents. Under normal circumstances, a new school would be allocated to a new organization, or to an existing sponsoring body which is not already operating another school at the same level in the same district. The
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 13 October 1993 155
reputation and popularity of the applicants will also be taken into account; and
(iv) the length of time for which the applications have been outstanding, when all other factors are equal.
Poisoning caused by Chinese herbs
14. MR HOWARD YOUNG asked: Will the Government inform this Council:
(a) how many cases of poisoning involving the use of Chinese herbs were reported in the past three years and the causes of poisoning in these cases;
(b) whether the Government will release the names of the Chinese herbs which have caused poisoning; and
(c) whether it will consider educating the public, including issuing information pamphlets, on the toxic effects of certain Chinese herbs and how they should be handled?
SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE: Mr President, seriatim, the reply is as follows:
(a) Over the past three years, there have been 23 reported cases of poisoning involving the use of Chinese herbs. Of these cases, 22 were caused by the improper use of Chuanwu and Caowu due to overdosage, incomplete curing of the herbs or failure to comply with instructions on preparation. The remaining case was caused by the mistaken use of Naoyanghua instead of Lingxiaohua.
(b) Yes, the Government does release the names of the Chinese herbs which have caused poisoning and will continue the practice so as to alert and educate the public on the proper use of these herbs.
(c) The Government recognizes the need for educating the public on the safe and proper use of Chinese herbs. Through its health education programmes, the Department of Health provides information to the public on the toxic effect of potent herbs and on how they should be handled.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 13 October 1993 156 Reports on Hong Kong to the United Nations Human Rights Committee 15. MR SIMON IP asked: Will the Administration inform this Council:
(a) of reports on Hong Kong within the last five years which the United Kingdom Government has an obligation to make to the United Nations Human Rights Committee under all relevant treaties and conventions;
(b) of such reports as mentioned in (a) above due between now and 30 June, 1997; and
(c) whether it has been and will be the standard practice of the Administration to table such reports in the Legislative Council?
SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS: Mr President, the answers to Mr IP's questions are as follows:
(a) The United Kingdom Government has an obligation to report on Hong Kong to the United Nations Human Rights Committee under the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights. Within the last five years, the United Kingdom Government has submitted the Third Periodic Report on Hong Kong under the Covenant and an update of the Third Periodic Report (submitted in 1989 and 1991 respectively).
The United Kingdom Government is also obliged to submit reports on Hong Kong for the consideration of other United Nations treaty-monitoring bodies under a number of human rights treaties. Within the last five years, it has submitted the Second Periodic Report on Hong Kong regarding Articles 10-15 of the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights (submitted in 1993 for the consideration of the Committee on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights); and the Eleventh and Twelfth Periodic Reports on Hong Kong under the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination (submitted in 1992 for the consideration of the Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination).
(b) Reports due between now and 30 June 1997 are:
(i) Fourth Periodic Report under the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (due June 1994);
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 13 October 1993 157
(ii) Third Periodic Report under the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights (due June 1994);
(iii) Thirteenth and Fourteenth Periodic Reports under the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination (due April 1994 and April 1996 respectively); and
(iv) Initial Report under the Convention Against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment (due January 1994). This report is to be considered by the Committee Against Torture.
(c) We have, starting with the Third Periodic Report under the International Covenant or Civil and Political Rights, made it a practice to table such reports in the Legislative Council. We have today tabled the Twelfth Periodic Report on Hong Kong under the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination, and will shortly table the Second Periodic Report on Hong Kong regarding Articles 10-15 of the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights.
Obstetric services for non-Hong Kong residents
16. DR LEONG CHE-HUNG asked: In view of fact that many female visitors from China seek obstetric services from our public hospitals during the period of their visit to Hong Kong, will the Government consider revising the current charging policy in order to recover the full cost of these services from non-Hong Kong residents?
SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE: Mr President, at present, the spouse of a holder of Hong Kong Identity Card who can produce a marriage certificate issued by a competent authority is charged fees on the basis of an entitled person when using services at our public hospitals and clinics. This policy applies without discrimination to all foreign nationals married to Hong Kong residents. Those who do not satisfy this criterion are classified as non-entitled persons and are required to pay the full costs of their medical treatment.
The present fee charging policy recognizes direct family ties as a major factor in determining the eligibility for subsidized medical treatment. This is a rational approach given the unique circumstances in Hong Kong as a cosmopolitan city. There is little justification to change the present policy without a thorough overhaul.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 13 October 1993 158
As the existing fee structure of our medical system is one of the key issues which we will address in the context of the Consultation Document "Towards Better Health", we will assess the need for change in the consultation exercise.
Protection for tenants of old buildings against harassment
17. MR STEVEN POON asked (in Chinese): Will the Government inform this Council:
(a) how many complaints were made to the police over the past year alleging intimidation, harassment and even violence by unlawful elements in their attempts to force tenants of old buildings to move out;
(b) upon investigation of these complaints, how many cases were triadrelated;
(c) how many prosecutions were instituted in respect of the complaints referred to in (a) above and how many of the prosecutions were successful; and
(d) what actions will be taken by the Administration to prevent such crimes and to protect the tenants concerned?
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY: Mr President,
(a) The requested statistics are not readily available. Complaints to the police concerning intimidation, harassment or violence are classified according to the nature of the criminal acts alleged. The police do not, at present, have separate statistics for complaints arising specifically from attempts by landlords to force tenants to move out of old buildings. However, the police, with effect from 1 January 1994, will begin to maintain separate statistics for offences against the Landlord and Tenants (Consolidation) Ordinance.
(b) and (c)
For the reasons set out above, this information is not available.
(d) To prevent such crimes and to protect the tenants concerned, pamphlets are distributed through District Offices and Rating and Valuation Department offices to highlight the fact that to interfere with a tenant's right to remain in occupation of rented premises, to harass tenants or to force tenants to move out of rented premises are criminal offences which are liable to heavy penalties.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 13 October 1993 159
On receiving complaints of criminal offences, including those arising from landlord tenant disputes or repossession of premises, the police will conduct the necessary investigations. Where appropriate, charges will be brought against those having committed criminal offences. The police also have close liaison with the Rating and Valuation Department and have established procedures to deal with tenancy dispute matters. If there is no evidence of any offence, the police will refer the case to the Rating and Valuation Department to settle the dispute by mediation.
Environmental conservation
18. MR MAN SAI-CHEONG asked (in Chinese): Will the Government inform this Council:
(a) of the major obligations which Hong Kong has to fulfil under international conventions and agreements on environmental conservation; and
(b) whether Britain had at the Earth Summit meeting held in Brazil last year, made any pledge on behalf of Hong Kong for the fulfilment of commitments in future; if so, what the specific details are?
SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS: Mr President,
(a) The following is a list of international conventions and agreements on environmental conservation, to which the United Kingdom is a contracting party and for which ratification by the United Kingdom has been extended to Hong Kong, and a description of our major obligations under them:
(i) Convention on the Conservation of Migratory Species of Wild Animals (Bonn Convention)
The Convention aims to protect migratory species in danger of extinction by requiring contracting parties to conserve and restore their habitats, and to prevent any impediments to their migration. In Hong Kong, the Wild Animal Protection Ordinance (Cap. 170) provides for the protection of species and their habitats to fulfil the requirement of the Convention. The Mai Po Marshes are conserved and managed as an important habitat for migratory birds.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 13 October 1993 160
(ii) Convention on Wetlands of International Importance Especially as Waterfowl Habitat (Ramsar Convention)
Major obligations under the Convention include implementing planning mechanisms to promote the wise use of wetlands, establishing nature reserves for the conservation of wetlands and waterfowl and making adequate provision for their wardening. In Hong Kong, the Mai Po Marshes are protected as a nature reserve.
(iii) Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora (CITES)
Contracting parties to CITES are required to protect endangered and threatened species from over exploitation by regulating international trade in wild animals and plants listed in the appendices of the Convention such as elephants and crocodiles. In Hong Kong, the Animals and Plants (Protection of Endangered Species) Ordinance (Cap. 187) restricts the import, export and possession of internationally recognized endangered species and their readily recognizable parts and derivatives in accordance with the Convention.
(iv) Montreal Protocol on Substances that Deplete the Ozone Layer
The Protocol requires each party to control the consumption, production, import and supply of ozone depleting chemicals. In Hong Kong, the Ozone Layer Protection Ordinance (Cap. 403) provides the legal framework for the necessary controls.
(v) London Convention
The Convention requires each party to exercise control on marine dumping through licensing arrangements. Hong Kong's obligations under the Convention are currently provided for by the Overseas Territories Order (1975) which extends the provisions of the United Kingdom's Dumping at Sea Act (1974) to Dependent Territories. A licensing system which meets the requirements of the Convention is in place.
(b) Britain made no pledge on behalf of Hong Kong for the fulfilment of commitments in future at the Earth Summit.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 13 October 1993 161 Gambling activities on vessels
19. MR CHIM PUI-CHUNG asked (in Chinese): In view of the operation of vessels carrying passengers from Hong Kong to the high seas for gambling activities, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) of the present number of those vessels;
(b) how the Government would monitor the gambling activities on board those vessels; and
(c) how the Administration's monitoring of such gambling activities differs from that which is exercised over the gambling activities on board vessels carrying passengers to the high seas for the sole purpose of gambling?
SECRETARY FOR HOME AFFAIRS: Mr President, the Government policy on gambling is to restrict opportunities for gambling but to allow controlled outlets for such gambling activities as exist. At present the only forms of gambling which are permitted are mahjong played in licensed mahjong parlours, the Mark Six lottery and, of course, betting at the two race courses or through the off-course betting centre network on horse races organized by the Royal Hong Kong Jockey Club. No other forms of gambling are permitted. The restrictions on gambling extend to activities which take place on board ships within the waters of Hong Kong.
I can assure Members that the Government is concerned about unlawful gambling activities. However, there are particular difficulties with respect to Hong Kong's extra territorial jurisdiction over activities which take place on board vessels carrying passengers from Hong Kong to the high seas.
I should like to point out that it is not government policy to attempt to control gambling activities which take place outside Hong Kong. In the case of vessels based in Hong Kong, the Government's first priority is to ensure the safety of all on board these vessels; crew and passengers alike.
With the enactment of the Merchant Shipping (Safety) (Amendment) Ordinance on 13 January 1993 all passenger vessels based in Hong Kong and engaged on excursion voyages have to be inspected and examined by Government Surveyors to the same safety standards as they apply to Hong Kong registered ships before they will be allowed to clear the port of Hong Kong.
The recent fire on the Panamanian registered passenger ship "New Orient Princess" has clearly demonstrated the risks involved. This incident demonstrated that the Government was correct in taking steps to control fire and marine safety standards on board all vessels based in the territory. The Government will continue to take firm action to ensure that foreign passenger
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 13 October 1993 162
vessels based in Hong Kong and engaged on excursion voyages meet the same safety standard as apply to Hong Kong registered ships.
Currently, there are two vessels carrying passengers from Hong Kong for gambling activities on the high sea. Both have been inspected and passed examination.
In terms of the monitoring of activities which take place on board vessels outside Hong Kong territorial waters, the Government makes no distinction between vessels operating excursion voyages to the open sea and those plying between Hong Kong and other nearby ports.
Law enforcement agencies monitor the activities of all vessels using the port of Hong Kong, including vessels on excursion voyages. However, there is no evidence to suggest that unlawful gambling activities take place on board these ships within Hong Kong territorial waters.
Motions
OFFICIAL LANGUAGES ORDINANCE
THE ATTORNEY GENERAL moved the following motion:
"That the draft Official Languages (Authentic Chinese Text) (Summary Offences Ordinance) Order, proposed to be made by the Governor in Council, be approved."
He said: Mr President, I move the resolution standing in my name on the Order Paper.
The authentic Chinese texts of the Summary Offences Ordinance and the Complex Commercial Crimes Ordinance have been carefully examined by the Bilingual Laws Advisory Committee and the Legislative Council Subcommittee on the Authentic Chinese Texts and have their support. In accordance with subsection (4) of section 4B of the Official Languages Ordinance, draft authentication orders in respect of these texts have been prepared and are being put before this Council for approval this afternoon prior to being submitted to the Governor in Council for authentication. I now move that the first of these orders, that is the draft Official Languages (Authentic Chinese Text) (Summary Offences Ordinance) Order, proposed to be made by the Governor in Council, be approved.
Question on the motion proposed, put and agreed to.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 13 October 1993 163 OFFICIAL LANGUAGES ORDINANCE
THE ATTORNEY GENERAL moved the following motion:
"That the draft Official Languages (Authentic Chinese Text) (Complex Commercial Crimes Ordinance) Order, proposed to be made by the Governor in Council, be approved."
He said: Mr President, I move the resolution standing in my name on the Order Paper. This seeks approval of the draft Official Languages (Authentic Chinese Text) (Complex Commercial Crimes Ordinance) Order proposed to be made by the Governor in Council.
Question on the motion proposed, put and agreed to.
First Reading of Bills
FACTORIES AND INDUSTRIAL UNDERTAKINGS (AMENDMENT) BILL 1993 BOILERS AND PRESSURE VESSELS (AMENDMENT) BILL 1993
Bills read the First time and ordered to be set down for Second Reading pursuant to Standing Order 41(3).
Second Reading of Bills
FACTORIES AND INDUSTRIAL UNDERTAKINGS (AMENDMENT) BILL 1993
THE SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER moved the Second Reading of: "A Bill to amend the Factories and Industrial Undertakings Ordinance."
He said: Mr President, I move the Second Reading of the Factories and Industrial Undertakings (Amendment) Bill 1993.
At the opening of this Council's Session, the Governor has made it quite clear that "we intend to get very tough with those, both employers and employees, who continue to believe that the laws to promote safety at work do not apply to them". The Bill put before Members today is a key component of our package of proposals for improving industrial safety. It seeks to raise substantially the penalties for offences under the Factories and Industrial Undertakings Ordinance, to empower the Commissioner for Labour to issue codes of practice and to transfer the power to amend the schedules of the Ordinance from the Governor in Council to the Commissioner for Labour.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 13 October 1993 164
At present, the maximum fines for offences under the Factories and Industrial Undertakings Ordinance and its subsidiary regulations range from $5,000 to $50,000 plus 12 months' imprisonment. These are now considered generally too low as most of the maximum fines have not been revised since 1981.
In order to maintain and increase their deterrent effect, we propose to increase the maximum fines having regard to the seriousness of the offences as minor, serious and very serious. In general, "minor offences" are mainly technical breaches of statutory procedural requirements such as failure to keep records or registers, absence of statutory warning notices or signs. "Serious offences" involve relatively serious breaches of safety regulations, but normally not causing very serious bodily harm. Examples are failure to mark the maximum speed of abrasive wheels, poor lighting of workplace and so on. "Very serious offences" are those which may cause imminent risk of fatality or very serious bodily injury. Such offences include lack of protection to prevent falling from height, outbreak of explosion and grave fire hazards.
We propose that minor offences should carry a maximum fine of $10,000, serious offences $50,000 and very serious offences $200,000 with or without imprisonment.
The current safety and health regulations provide for safety requirements but may not contain sufficient details on procedures and standards for employers and workers to follow. To supplement the legal provisions, it is desirable to prepare codes of practice, written in layman's language, on specific regulations or subjects to provide for precise standards and practical guidance. While the Labour Department has issued codes of practice at present, they do not have any legal status.
We propose that the Commissioner for Labour be empowered to issue codes of practice under the Factories and Industrial Undertakings Ordinance. Failure to observe a provision of the codes of practice shall not by itself render a person liable to criminal proceedings, but in any criminal proceedings, the court or magistrate may take into account any provision of a code of practice which appears to be relevant to any liability in question.
At present, the power to amend the Schedules of the Factories and Industrial Undertakings Ordinance rests with the Governor in Council. As these schedules deal only with matters of a technical nature, we propose to transfer the power to the Commissioner for Labour in order to reduce the workload of the Governor in Council.
Bill referred to the House Committee pursuant to Standing Order 42(3A).
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 13 October 1993 165 BOILERS AND PRESSURE VESSELS (AMENDMENT) BILL 1993
THE SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER moved the Second Reading of: "A Bill to amend the Boilers and Pressure Vessels Ordinance."
He said: Mr President, I move the Second Reading of the Boilers and Pressure Vessels (Amendment) Bill 1993.
The Bill seeks to transfer the power of making regulations under 65(1) of the Boilers and Pressure Vessels Ordinance, relating to the safety standards, numbering of boilers and pressure vessels, control of their operation and fees, from the Governor in Council to the Boilers and Pressure Vessels Authority, who is at present the Commissioner for Labour.
The Authority is already given the power to make other subsidiary legislation under the existing Ordinance, namely, to prescribe the form of a certificate of fitness and a certificate of competency and of any other relevant document under section 67 of the Ordinance. The Bill, if approved, would reduce the Executive Council's workload in making subsidiary legislation of a technical nature. Any proposed amendment to the subsidiary legislation under this Ordinance in future will continue to be laid on the table of this Council, which may by resolution amend it.
Bill referred to the House Committee pursuant to Standing Order 42(3A).
Members' motions
ELECTION OF THE PRESIDENT'S DEPUTY
MR ANDREW WONG moved the following motion:
"That the Honourable Mrs Elsie TU be elected the President's deputy of this Council."
MR ANDREW WONG: Mr President, I move that Mrs Elsie TU be elected the President's deputy of this Council.
Question on Mrs Elsie TU's election as President's deputy proposed, put and agreed to.
PRESIDENT: I congratulate you, Mrs TU, on your re-election as President's deputy. (Clapping)
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 13 October 1993 166
MRS ELSIE TU: Mr President, I would like, if I may, to thank my colleagues for this honour and to assure them and you, Sir, that I will fulfill my duty to the utmost and also my duty to you.
PRESIDENT: Thank you, Mrs TU.
HONG KONG ROYAL INSTRUCTIONS 1917 TO 1992
MRS ELSIE TU moved the following motion:
"That with effect from 13 October 1993 the Standing Orders of the Legislative Council of Hong Kong be amended -
(1) in Standing Order No. 4B -
(a) in paragraph (1), by repealing "or committees or subcommittees of the Council" and substituting ", committees of the whole Council, the Finance Committee or subcommittees of the Finance Committee";
(b) in paragraph (2), by repealing "a committee or subcommittee" and substituting "the Finance Committee or a subcommittee of the Finance Committee";
(2) in Standing Order No. 60C -
(a) in paragraph (7), by adding at the end -
", subcommittees constituted under paragraph (11) and Panels constituted under Standing Order No. 60E";
(b) by adding -
"(11A) A Member shall not be chairman or deputy chairman of
more than one subcommittee at the same time.
(11B) The committee may refer any policy matter relating to
the business of the Council to a Panel constituted under Standing Order No. 60E, may determine the terms of reference for the consideration of such matter and may request and receive reports on such matter from the Panel.";
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 13 October 1993 167 (c) in paragraph (16), by adding ", or any subcommittee," after "committee"; (3) in Standing Order No. 60D, by adding -
"(3A) A Bills Committee may appoint subcommittees for the purpose of assisting the Committee in the performance of its functions.";
(4) by adding -
"60E. Panels
(1) There shall be such number of committees, to be called Panels, as the House Committee considers appropriate.
(2) The terms of reference of a Panel shall be determined by the House Committee.
(3) A Panel shall monitor and examine, to the extent it considers necessary, policy matters referred to it by a member of the Panel or by the House Committee.
(4) The members of a Panel shall be those Members (other than the President and the ex officio Members) who signify membership in accordance with procedural rules (which shall provide only for the manner and timing of such signification) decided by the House Committee.
(5) The chairman of a Panel shall be elected by the Panel from amongst its members. The Panel may also elect a deputy chairman. The chairman and deputy chairman of a Panel shall hold office until the first sitting of the Panel in the session next following that in which they were elected.
(6) A Member who is the chairman or deputy chairman of a Government advisory body in respect of matters which a Panel considers to be directly related to the terms of reference of the Panel shall not be the chairman or deputy chairman of the Panel.
(7) A Member shall not be chairman or deputy chairman of more than one Panel at the same time.
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(8) A Panel shall consist of not less than six members including
the chairman. The quorum of a Panel shall be three members including the chairman, or one third of the members including the chairman (a fraction of the whole number being disregarded), whichever is the greater.
(9) A Panel may, if it considers appropriate, form subcommittees
to study specific issues and to report to the Panel.
(10) A Panel or its subcommittee may, if it considers appropriate,
sit jointly with any other Panel or its subcommittee for the purpose of considering any matter of common interest to the Panels.
(11) A Panel and its subcommittee shall sit at the times (including
any time during the period when the Council is in recess between the end of one session and the beginning of the next session) and at the place determined by the chairman of the Panel or its subcommittee, as the case may be. Written notice of the place, day and time of every sitting shall be given to the members at least three days before the day of the sitting but shorter notice may be given in any case where the chairman so directs.
(12) Sittings shall be held in public unless the chairman otherwise
orders in accordance with any decision of the Panel or its subcommittee, as the case may be.
(13) All matters for the decision of a Panel shall be decided by a
majority of the members voting. The chairman shall, if the votes be equally divided, have a casting vote in addition to his original vote. Such voting shall not be binding on any Member, whether in Council, in a committee of the whole Council or in the House Committee.
(14) A Panel may, where requested by the House Committee and
where it considers appropriate, or on its own motion, make reports in writing to the House Committee for the purpose of informing Members of the progress of its deliberations.
(15) Where so authorized under section 9(2) of the Legislative
Council (Powers and Privileges) Ordinance (Cap. 382), a Panel or its subcommittee may call any person to attend before it and to give evidence or to produce any paper, book, record or document in the possession or under the control of such person.
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(16) Subject to these Standing Orders, the practice and procedure
of a Panel or its subcommittee shall be determined by that Panel. In any such determination, a Panel shall take into account any guidelines provided under Standing Order No. 60C(7)."."
MRS ELSIE TU: Mr President, I rise to move the motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.
In July last year, I moved a motion to amend the Standing Orders of the Legislative Council of Hong Kong to implement a formal committee structure to scrutinize draft legislation. This year, I move a motion to amend the Standing Order again. The main purpose of the amendment this time is to make provision for the establishment of panels as formal committees of the Legislative Council.
The existing panels were formed under the former OMELCO system to provide a forum for Members to meet together to discuss government policies with the Administration. Following the dissolution of OMELCO last October, the present panel system was reviewed. On the recommendation of a working group, formed by Legislative Council Members to study various matters relating to the winding up of OMELCO, the House Committee decided in February this year that existing panels should be made formal committees of the Legislative Council with clear legal status. They should continue to be called panels and to perform their existing function of monitoring and examining government policies.
I would like to highlight the following main features of the new panel system:
(a) panels shall be covered by the Legislative Council (Powers and Privileges) Ordinance (Cap. 382);
(b) panels may form subcommittees of their own to study specific issues;
(c) following the practice of the House Committee and the Bills Committees, a panel or its subcommittee, where so authorized by the Legislative Council (Powers and Privileges) Ordinance, may call any person to attend before it and to give evidence or to provide any document or record under the control of such person; and
(d) there will be restrictions on the chairmanship and deputy chairmanship of panels. The restrictions are:
(i) a Member who is the chairman or deputy chairman of a government advisory body in respect of matters which a panel considers to be directly related to the terms of reference of
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 13 October 1993 170 the panel shall not be the chairman or deputy chairman of that panel; and
(ii) a Member shall not be chairman or deputy chairman of more than one panel at the same time.
With the hard work of my colleagues, the Legislative Council Secretariat and the Administration, necessary amendments to the Standing Orders are now ready to effect the changes. It is believed that with the new and formalized panel structure, the efficiency of the Legislative Council will be further enhanced.
Mr President, I beg to move.
Question on the motion proposed, put and agreed to.
PRESIDENT: I have accepted the recommendations of the House Committee as to time limits on speeches for the motion debates on "Consultation Document on Medical Fees, Charges, Waivers and Insurance" and "Succession Rights in the New Territories" and Members were informed by circular on 11 October. The mover of the motion will have 15 minutes for his speech including his reply and another five minutes to reply to proposed amendments. Other Members, including movers of amendments, will have seven minutes for their speeches. Under Standing Order 27A, I am required to direct any Member speaking in excess of the specified time to discontinue his speech.
CONSULTATION DOCUMENT ON MEDICAL FEES, CHARGES, WAIVERS AND INSURANCE
DR LAM KUI-CHUN moved the following motion:
"That this Council urges the Government to take fully into consideration the views expressed by the community on its consultation document on medical fees, charges, waivers and insurance ("Towards Better Health"), so as to formulate a policy which ensures that the people of Hong Kong, in particular those who are less able to pay, can continue to have access to adequate health care at no more than nominal charges as befitting a welfare service, and that innovative means of additional funding are found to cope with the escalating costs of health care as well as to make available the highest possible quality of medical care for the future, without unduly burdening society."
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DR LAM KUI-CHUN (in Cantonese): Mr President, I move the motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.
Responding to Mr Peter WONG's motion moved in this Council last April, the Government in mid-July this year published a consultation paper entitled Towards Better Health. The paper seeks to lay down for our future health care services a funding structure which is acceptable to the public. The paper intends well. Unfortunately, many members of the public, as well as political parties, concluded from the outset that it was a paper to pave the way for higher health care charges; accordingly, they raised strong objections right away. As a step in the overall development of health care services, the Government initiated years ago primary health care services including healthy living. Then, 22 months ago, the Hospital Authority was set up. In doing so, the Government aims to put resources to more cost-effective use and to lower the costs of health care. At present, the Government has to face the following problems: the aging population's increasing demand for medical services; the need for expensive equipment to enable medical services to keep abreast of the times; and the fact that medical costs have risen at a much faster rate than the rate of inflation. Undoubtedly, the next step in government planning should be to cope with its spiralling expenditure on health care and at the same time to provide adequate health care services, charging fees in a way acceptable to the public. Accordingly, this consultation paper on health care charges, waivers and insurance was published for public consultation. Such a move comes at an opportune time. Unfortunately, "a wrong name is worse than a hard lot", as the saying goes. The consultation paper is entitled Towards Better Health. Therefore, it puts readers in such a frame of mind that they expect to find out from it how the Government proposes to achieve the goal of better health. However, it turns out that the substance of the paper should more appropriately have been entitled Health Care Resources Development and Funding Structure. No wonder that the public are worrying that the paper has been published solely for the "better health" of the Treasury. Against this background, officials of the Health and Welfare Branch are going around, trying hard to explain the purpose of the consultation paper. However, members of the public have already been prejudiced and they simply oppose to any increase in charges, rendering meaningless the consultation process.
In moving my motion in this Council today, apart from giving Members an opportunity to offer their invaluable comments, I also want the Government to listen to comments that are really balanced and to the point, comments that are not merely directed against higher charges.
Within the framework of the motion, I have first of all made it clear that the consultation paper is on "fees, waivers and insurance" and not on abstract health care principles. I say so in a positive response to the topics of the consultation paper and with a view to giving substantive support to the Government in formulating a practical policy.
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On this new policy, the first point of my motion is to urge the Government to ensure that inexpensive but adequate health care services to the general public will be maintained. In making this point, my hope is to relieve the people of their anxiety that "they may not be able to afford medical treatment." As a matter of fact, the Government has been subsidizing acute general hospitals at between 97% and 98% of the operating cost. This is practically a kind of welfare service. Although charges have been pegged to the overall costs in recent years, the public still find it acceptable because the charges are low. Having a baseline as befitting a welfare service is of paramount importance to the poorer members of the public. Meanwhile, the Government should also look after the interests of people in the border-line cases, that is, those who stand on their own legs. Though they are not destitute, they will have difficulties meeting medical expenses and living expenses in case they fall ill. True, the Government has been emphasizing that no one should be denied adequate medical treatment through lack of means. Still, I hope that the Government will go a step further so that nobody will land himself in financial straits for seeking adequate medical treatment. In the areas of fees, waivers and medical subvention, the Government should give these people reasonable and compassionate consideration. My motion, as worded, does not restrain the Government from setting up mechanisms to charge patients in full or in part the cost of treatment under certain circumstances (for instance, when wealthy patients need the kind of treatment provided exclusively by public hospitals under the Hospital Authority).
After urging that inexpensive health care for the general public should be maintained, I must go on to emphasize that mere maintenance of the status quo financially will not suffice to take Hong Kong's health care standards into the 21st century. Mr President, let me tell you the stories of two heart disease patients, one called "Ah Fei" and the other "Ah Pang". Fifteen years ago, Ah Fei needed to pay only $300 plus a daily rate of $10 to $15 for medicine. The examination he undertook was limited to the taking of one cardiogram. The doctor told him that he should avoid fatigue and excitement. After being discharged from hospital, he lived every day under the shadow of fear that he would sooner or later have a heart attack. Six years later, he did have a heart attack, and he died by the side of a mahjong table. Now look at Ah Pang six-odd months ago. After being admitted into hospital, he was not only given a cardiogram examination, but also a coronary arteriogram. His occlusive cardiovascular system was unblocked as well. Ah Pang still live an active and vigorous life today. He plays tennis regularly. He feels quite at home doing things that others consider as "stirring up trouble." His quality of life is of course much better than that of Ah Fei. But he had to pay a medical bill of $50,000 or so, more than 160 times the amount paid by Ah Fei. The present consultation paper seeks to invite the public to make a choice. Do they want inexpensive medical treatment and then, like Ah Fei, live under the shadow of fear, or do they want expensive, up-to-date treatment and get the same salutary result as Ah Pang? The Liberal Party last week consulted the public for their views. 80% of them responded that they favoured up-to-date treatment. In view of the rising public expectations about standards of medical care and more
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patients like Ah Fat and Ah Pang, where does the money come from? The second point in my motion deals precisely with this question. Health care costs continue to spiral. Should government medical services remain a welfare service and be kept abreast of the times, it is totally a cock-and-bull story that we may do without a reform of the present funding structure on the one hand and do not unduly strain our economy on the other. In his first policy address, the Governor promised to increase health care spending by 22% in real terms over the next five years. His words are still fresh in our memory. Then, last week, in his second policy address, he further committed $850 million to the improvement of medical facilities. Although the Government has made additional commitments in health care, they still lag far behind the desired level. Let us ask ourselves: How can we expect the Government to appropriate more money for health care without make a radical change to our proven funding structure that has been in use for many years?
Under these circumstances, exploring new sources of funding is the only solution. To be precise, the bones of contention are fee increase, tax increase or the spreading of the cost of health care. I believe that Members will later on offer their brilliant comments on the question of new resources development. I would like to point out some principles:
Firstly, as to new resources development, it must be on a voluntary basis.
Secondly, a sound waiver system is required to assist members of the middle and low income groups.
Thirdly, tax increase should be avoided so as to enable Hong Kong to maintain its economic merits.
Under the principle of voluntary contribution, the issues of semi-private rooms and medical insurance schemes, in which members of the public will be encouraged to participate, should be discussed in greater depth.
On the question of waivers, the Government must be flexible. While a definite system is necessary, rigid policies and standards will only invoke public dissatisfaction. I think that, while there should be a definite policy, it should be applied with great flexibility on an individual basis. At the same time, it is not worth the effort to incur huge administrative expenses to charge individual patients for scanty medical fees.
The question of medical insurance lies beyond the scope of the consultation paper. I think that it is imperative that the Government considers setting up a central medical insurance scheme to invite the voluntary participation by the public. If this task is assigned to commercial insurance companies, the elderly and the infirm may practically be unable to have any insurance coverage. Worse still, chances are that insurance companies may gain the final say over health care resources as in the case of foreign countries. As a result, hospitals may have to turn away patients with complications for fear of
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their tight resources being eroded by them. This will frustrate the goal of "accessibility of medical treatment to every patient."
On the tax increase issue, the Government should take warning from the experience of developed countries. These countries impose high tax rates to meet their rising expenditures on medical welfare. Their economy is thus undermined. They run up huge national debts and their resources are abused. The result is that, despite their heavy spending on health care, the health of their citizens is not as good as that of the people of Hong Kong. According to a survey conducted by the Liberal Party, 96% of the people opposed to tax increase as a new source of health care funding. In view of the aspirations of the people of Hong Kong and the experience drawn from foreign countries, we must avoid taking the same disastrous road of these foreign countries. This is what I mean by "without unduly burdening society" at the end of my motion.
Mr President, today's motion debate seeks to urge the Government to formulate a policy which ensures that the people of Hong Kong can have access to adequate health care at nominal charges and, without creating a huge burden on itself, to explore new resources to cope with the escalating costs of health care as well as to introduce up-to-date technologies to Hong Kong so that our health care services may stride into a new era. I urge all Members to support the motion. Later on, other Members from the Liberal Party will elaborate on our ideas.
Mr President, with these remarks, I beg to move.
Question on the motion proposed.
PRESIDENT: Dr Conrad LAM has given notice to move an amendment to the motion. His amendment has been printed in the Order Paper and circulated to Members. I propose to call on him to speak and to move his amendment now so that Members may debate the motion and the amendment together.
DR CONRAD LAM moved the following amendment to Dr LAM Kui-chun's motion:
"To delete all the words from "take fully into consideration" to the end and substitute the following -
"work out as soon as possible a healthcare policy that is fair and acceptable to the public and to respect the wishes expressed by the public in response to the consultation document "Towards Better Health", in particular the wishes that:
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(a) charges for healthcare services should not be based on operating costs, nor should itemised charging be adopted; and
(b) as healthcare is a social welfare service, the Government should take full responsibility for looking after the health of the general public and should in no way introduce the principle that patients should bear a greater burden of healthcare costs.""
DR CONRAD LAM (in Cantonese): Mr President, I move an amendment to Dr LAM Kui chun's motion as set out under my name in the Order Paper. The United Democrats of Hong Kong (UDHK) has three main reasons for moving the amendment:
Firstly, the motion fails to reflect the views expressed by most members of the public concerning the consultation document Towards Better Health. The public is particularly averse to, and concerned about, "pegging charges to costs" and "itemized charging".
Secondly, the motion obviously promotes the idea that "users pay", an idea contrary to the principle which states that health care is people's right.
Thirdly, UDHK's approach to public opinion is simply different from that of the Liberal Party. The Liberal Party merely urges that public opinion be "taken into consideration". In contrast, UDHK urges that public opinion be "respected" and not toyed with. Mr President, Mr Chris PATTEN talks all the time about adherence to three principles: "openness", "fairness" and "acceptability to the public". It is to be hoped that the Government will adhere to these three principles when laying down its policy on charges for health care.
Anybody who does not understand the true meaning of "specious argument" may find it very enlightening to read the full text of the motion. In its first part, the motion talks about welfare service and nominal charges but then goes on to rank members of the public according to their ability to pay, with the result that nominal charges turn out to be not what they seem. As for the rest of the motion, while it seems to urge the Government to find means of additional funding without unduly burdening society, what it really says is that a burden that is not undue will be acceptable. Interpreting it in its positive sense, one might have reduced the 112-word motion to 13 words: "Health care is a citizen right and the Government must foot the bill". Unfortunately, Dr LAM Kui-chun instead used ambiguous terms which not only caused confusion but enabled his motion to be interpreted differently depending on one's viewpoint. It seems that Dr LAM Kui-chun used ambiguity and verbosity to disguise his real intent. However, speaking a moment ago, he has made this intent clear. If we remove its ambiguity, we will see that his motion amounts to voicing implicit support for a mechanism based on the idea that "users pay".
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I wish to point out where the motion is self-contradictory. If one is really talking about nominal charges, then one should not talk about pegging charges to the ability to pay. If one means that patients who can afford to pay more should pay more, then one is not talking about nominal charges, is one? The motion is full of equivocal terms. One example is "those who are less able to pay". As Dr LAM is advocating nominal charges, then I would like to ask: At what level should the charges be set? How much are the charges? Different people differ in ability to pay. Even the same person's ability to pay differs at different times. For instance, a wage earner's ability to pay before pay-day differs appreciably from that after pay-day. How do we define "less able to pay"? How should we quantify "able to pay"? The same amount of salary that is enough to support a family of two may not be enough to support a family of three or four, still less if there is a chronic patient in the family. The term "able to pay" is hard enough to define as it is. Adding the abstract word "less" to the term makes it even harder to define.
What does the motion mean when it says," .... without unduly burdening society"? Where should the line be drawn in defining an "undue" burden? If an "undue" burden means a burden exceeding a specific percentage of GDP, then what is this percentage? And who is responsible for drawing the line? What criteria should be employed? Also, when the motion says, ".... continue to have access to adequate health care", it is assuming that existing health care is adequate, so there should be continued access to it. But the truth is that existing health care is inadequate in many ways. The motion is also difficult to understand when it says, ".... ensures that .... innovative means of additional funding are found." We are not opposed to innovation. But the motion assumes that existing health care is adequate; why then does it suggest that innovative means of additional funding must be found? Does the motion mean to say that we do not need a health care policy unless it ensures that innovative means of additional funding are found? The motion says, ".... make available the highest possible quality of medical care." It may as well have said nothing. If I tell Honourable Members that I am going to buy you the best meal "within my means", then what I mean by the best meal will probably include sharks' fin or abalone, yet, it will also merely be some peanut or some stale bread. Mr President, summing up the above, I find the motion full of "ambiguities", "contradictions in terms" and "equivocal signals".
Mr President, I once worked in a hospital. That hospital had more than 20 years of experience with regard to practices of "pegging charges to costs" and "itemized charging". I can tell you confidently that "pegging charges to costs" and "itemized charging" have certain adverse effects on the quality of life at the lower social strata.
Mr President, with these remarks, I move the amendment.
Question on the amendment proposed.
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MRS SELINA CHOW (in Cantonese): Mr President, on behalf of the Liberal Party, I support Dr LAM Kui-chun's motion and oppose Dr Conrad LAM's amendment.
First of all, I would like to state the basic principles along which the Liberal Party examines the Government's consultation paper Towards Better Health.
In our view, given the fact that Hong Kong is a prosperous and sophisticated society, the people of Hong Kong deserve to enjoy health care services that are technologically advanced and equipped with state-of-the-art facilities. The Government should not allow our progress in medical services to fall behind other developed countries for financial reasons.
To achieve such a goal, the Government should make proper funding arrangements, arrangements that are accepted by the public as fair. Meanwhile, acknowledgement must be made that medical service is an essential social service (yes, social service, not social welfare). No one should be denied adequate medical treatment through lack of means. As for those with the means, they should contribute more than those without. Furthermore, the public sector should offer a wider range of service options, options which are not only fair and reasonable but also meet the diversified demands of our community.
What the public worries the most is whether the Government is using the occasion of the present consultation to raise charges sharply, to raise the traditionally low medical charges in the public sector, with the result that some people may be denied the services they need.
The Liberal Party considers this kind of worry to be understandable and that the Government should fully take it into consideration. We think that the existing fee-charging criterion which reflects only the cost of meals, is weird and sometimes unfair. The cost of each kind of health care services varies. It is therefore logical for patients to pay different amounts of fees for the different kinds of services they receive. However, in view of the general public's concern, the percentage of the costs that patients are now paying should remain as it is. In other words, the existing percentage which represents 1% or 2% of the operating costs, is an appropriate one. Government subsidy should, as far as possible, be kept at some 90% of costs. In addition, there should be a cap on the scale of cost increase, lest charges go up sharply with cost.
The public sector should offer more choices to patients. Those who want better beds should of course be asked to pay higher charges. At present, this kind of choice is only available in private hospitals and it is very expensive. We feel that it is incumbent on the Government to make available in the public sector such kind of choices to members of the public because it has the resources to do so.
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All the revenue from the provision of health care services should be spent on health care development. None of it should go into the Treasury and be earmarked for other use.
In addition, we urge that resources spent on health care should be in a cost-effective way. Meanwhile, a patient-oriented culture of service should be instilled into hospital management.
Mr President, I am going to explain why we cannot accept Dr Conrad LAM's amendment to the motion.
In my view, what Dr Conrad LAM said just now was somewhat like swearing black is white. He mentioned about "duly or unduly," and "equivocal signals." His words were vacuous and basically not founded. They were just some impassioned or inflammatory words. In fact, his amendment is unacceptable for the following reasons:
Firstly, as I have said earlier, his amendment is totally negativist. He said that charges for services should not be based on costs and that there should be no itemized charging. Well then, what sort of fee-charging criteria should be adopted? He did not mention any. He objected for the sake of objecting, true to the oppositionist practice of the United Democrats of Hong Kong (UDHK). There is no positive intention to improve anything nor will any improvement result. Therefore, we absolutely disagree with him.
Secondly, it is most important that we do not agree that all health care services are unadulteratedly social welfare services to be funded solely by the Government. It cannot be denied that health care services are essential social services to be provided by the Government. However, if they are defined as social welfare services, it is we, the citizens, who alone must foot the bill, with the Government acting as a mere agent. That will be socialism in practice. In communist and socialist countries, all social services expenditures are borne by government on behalf of the people. The result is an ever heavier tax burden and the government's increasing indebtedness. It is inequitable that Dr Conrad LAM barred the introduction of the idea that "the patient should pay more." Suppose that a patient has the means and that he chooses better amenities. Suppose, for instance, that Dr Conrad LAM or UDHK chief Mr Martin LEE wishes to go to a Government hospital. Will he then, having the means, refuse to pay more in a better discharge of his citizen obligation? Will he, too, rely on financial assistance as the poorer members of the public do?
Hong Kong is a community of self-reliance people. We understand the rationale of the saying, "after all, the wool still comes from the sheep." If everybody wants the Government to pay for everything just like UDHK does, Hong Kong will really become a perfect utopia. Unfortunately, in reality, there is no free lunch, nor a government that "picks up every tab." UDHK must be more candid and tell us what kind of price we will have to pay, and how much, if we are to enjoy the fruit of their socialist policy. We know that "pennies
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from heaven" are not available. If they tell us the truth honestly, then, despite our divergence in views, we will at least admire them for their honesty and candour.
MR HUI YIN-FAT (in Cantonese): Mr President, it is the basic right of each citizen in our community to receive medical and health services. The Government has the obligation and responsibility to provide the minimum care and ensure good service quality. For this reason, the consultation document should stress that no one will, according to the government policy, be denied appropriate medical services through lack of means, instead of whether there should be such a policy. The present problem we need to tackle is that on one hand we have to maintain a low tax system but, on the other, advanced medical facilities and drugs are very expensive. To improve public health care services in order to meet patients' high expectations, the Administration has to tap new revenue sources. I believe this is the background leading to the formulation of this consultation document.
The Hong Kong Council of Social Services (HKCSS), to which I belong, recently submitted to the Government its representations regarding the consultation document, so I do not intend to waste time commenting the document point by point in this debate. I would like to concentrate on only one point, that is, the Government's financial commitment to health care services. Statistics show that Hong Kong's expenditure on medical and health services over the past 10 years has constituted around 8% to 10% of the annual total public sector expenditure. This figure shows that the territory is still lagging rather far behind our neighbours with similar economic success. In this connection, I believe that the Government can actually afford to allocate more resources for health care services. The Government should, as a concrete expression before the public of its determination and sincerity to solve the problem, firstly increase the expenditure on medical and health services to a reasonable level.
In fact, the growing pressure on the health care expenditure may be due to the fact that the Government has all along lacked a forward-looking and longterm policy. At present there is a global trend of falling hospital expenditure in many advanced countries because patients' admission rate is gradually on the decline as a result of better primary health care. This is the most cost-effective way to reduce such expenditure because medical cost is, generally speaking, greater than that of primary health care. However, the Government is bucking this trend and, indeed, the public, especially the health care profession, find the situation very frustrating. In his policy address, the Governor mentioned the patient-centred health care services but failed to touch upon the implementation of the proposals in the report compiled by the Working Party on Primary Health Care and issued by the Government in 1990. We can see from this instance that the Administration has treated primary health care so slightly. I urge the Government to promptly formulate a well-defined health care policy and put in place a mechanism to monitor health care services by ensuring
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 13 October 1993 180 service quality and controlling cost so that precious resources will not be wasted.
Mr President, the Administration has repeatedly reiterated that medical fees are pegged to the cost in order to arouse patients' awareness of the cost involved and thus mitigate any abuse of medical services. However, I have to stress one point. The medical fees paid by patients should never form the main financial source of health care services. And any additional revenue coming from the implementation of the new fee schedule must be spent on health care services. This definitely cannot be used as a means to cut public funds made available to medical care. As regards the Percentage Subsidy Approach, once the fees and the cost are pegged, with the expected surging medical cost, the public are worried that it will become a ready-made excuse for the Administration to increase the fees time and again even though the subsidy rate remains unchanged. For this reason, the HKCSS strongly opposes this proposal. The Government has pledged that waivers would be available to needy patients. Still, not too many people will be benefited. Families which are marginal cases for receiving public assistance or with income just above the limit for the eligibility of waivers, especially those with aged members or chronic patients, will certainly be hard pressed financially.
Mr President, the Compulsory Comprehensive Insurance Approach put forward in the consultation document is worthy of support and a feasible proposal because this approach can provide immediate protection for the whole community, including the poor and the rich, the strong, the weak and the infirm as well as the retired. Since the number of people participating in the insurance scheme is great in number, risk can be shared and the premium can thus be maintained at a low level. The Government, however, has yet to make any concrete financial commitment or thrash out a well-defined medical policy. Neither has the Government made any pledge in respect of the fee system to remove any misgivings among the public. Unless the Government promises to make amendments, having regard to public opinion, I think the proposals in this document are not recommendable to the public.
These are my remarks. For the above reasons, I support Dr Conrad LAM's amendment.
MR PANG CHUN-HOI (in Cantonese): Mr President, it should have been a piece of good news to the general public that the Government has intended to raise the standard of medical services in Hong Kong. However, a good many new fees proposed in the consultation document on health care have aroused public anxiety. They are worried that the Government will change its current medical policy and will no longer make any commitment to people's welfare in the context of medical services.
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In the Green Paper, the Government highlights the public's extensive use of private sector facilities for preventive and minor curative treatment, with the public sector remaining the major provider of hospital services. For this reason, the paper adds that it is necessary to effect reform mainly in this area. In fact, the situation as portrayed in the Green Paper bears witness precisely to the fact that the public cannot afford the expensive medical services provided by private hospitals and medical services provided by the Government can relieve the public of the huge burden of medical fees when they have to be hospitalized.
Of the five approaches offered for consultation, the Government prefers a combination of the Target Group Approach and the Percentage Subsidy Approach but I really cannot support such a view. It was recommended in the consultation document that the percentage of overall cost recovery could progressively be increased to 15%-20%, that is to say, the daily fees for general class bed in casualty department or general ward may be between $316 and $421 and full waiver will be available to Public Assistance recipients. By taking such an approach, the Government undoubtedly intends to lower the living standard of the middle and lower classes further to reduce them to abject poverty.
Let us take a look at the following figures. In the year 1991-92, around 37% of the hospital beds are occupied by patients aged 65 or above while 47.3% of patients hospitalized in 1991 are people with less than $10 000 of total household monthly income. Most of the elderly in Hong Kong enjoy no retirement protection benefits and often depend on their families for financial support. If the Government tries to "improve" the existing medical services by increasing the percentage of overall cost recovery and making full waiver available to Public Assistance recipients, this group of elderly who are the most in need of medical services will certainly become heavy family burdens and as a result, the living standard of Hong Kong's middle and lower classes will deteriorate.
The Government has all along stressed that under the existing policy no one should be denied adequate medical treatment through lack of means will remain paramount. Perhaps the Government can really achieve this aim. However, if the proposals in the consultation document are put into practice, not only inflation will get worse but heavy burdens will also be laid on families with aged members. What is worse, the elderly may even be abandoned by their families and thus fall victim to the Government's so-called improvement of the medical services.
Everyone in the community is pleased to see that the Government is determined to enhance the quality of medical services and, in fact, this is also the obligation of a responsible government. Yet, I believe changing the fee collection method is not the only means to enhance the quality of medical services.
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I earnestly hope, and urge, that the Government should not shirk its responsibility for the provision of medical services as a form of social welfare. Today when Hong Kong has achieved remarkable economic success and the Government has made a huge surplus, I hope the general public can be provided with medical services as in the past, which are the only services made available to the people of Hong Kong regardless of their social or financial background.
Mr President, with these remarks, I support the amendment.
THE PRESIDENT'S DEPUTY, MRS ELSIE TU, took the Chair.
MR TAM YIU-CHUNG (in Cantonese): Madam deputy, Hong Kong's present health care system obviously does not meet the public's requirement because patients often fail to receive proper care. The system needs reform if we look at its deficiencies accumulating over the past. Moreover, with rapid changes in view, the system needs a forward-looking reform plan. The consultation paper Towards Better Health carries, from the beginning to the end, the banner of reform. Regrettably, however, it is a disappointment as a reform plan.
I have high praise for the words said by the Secretary for Health and Welfare in the foreword of the consultation paper. Her words send a very important signal, which is that better health can come only from a combination of hospital services and primary health care. If we may take these to be the objective of our health care system, how to put this objective into practice under Hong Kong's actual circumstances is the kind of reform we need. However, in the consultation paper, we see no down-to-earth assessment of objectives or review of the existing operating system. Still less do we see any reform strategy of value.
The consultation paper provides a list of existing problems in the health care system, such as overloading, manpower constraints, inequitable fee structure, lack of choice and the lack of interface between the public and private sectors. But the questions are: What does "inequitable fee structure" have to do with the goal of "towards better health"? What does "lack of choice" have to do with it? These two questions are leading in nature. They lead to the conclusions that the Government wants to draw. The Government is more interested in the conclusions than in the problems themselves. It seems that the Government, in presenting the problems in such a way, is trying to justify higher health care charges.
The other three problems, that is, overloading, manpower constraints and lack of interface between the public and private sectors, have existed for a long time. They are due to the inefficiency of our health care system. The Government does not review our health care system in terms of resource allocation, organizational structure and management to find out why the problems have remained unsolved and where the inefficiency lies. Instead, it
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treats the problems as if they were new ones. It seems that the Government is of the view that these problems can be solved only through an increase in health care charges. Such an approach is confusing and lacks sincerity.
The consultation paper not only reveals a confusing reform idea, but also a high degree of over-simplification. The consultation paper seems to conclude that the problems in Hong Kong's health care system are related to funding. It follows that cost control and a broader funding base will be the solution. It then goes on to say in a grossly simplified way that cost control and a broader funding base require a greater degree of cost-sharing by patients and the introduction of more market factors or privatization factors into the provision of health care services by the public sector. Such a highly simplistic logic has turned the consultation paper Towards Better Health into a consultation paper on health care charges. I consider such a highly simplistic approach to be a very irresponsible one. It covers up many problems that should be looked at squarely. It also causes other aspects of the reform to be overlooked. In fact, the greatest obstacles to enhancing cost-effectiveness are our over reliance on hospital services and the problems due to the excessive emphasis placed on "hospital-based" policies in the provision of hospital services. Yet the consultation paper continues to grope along the "hospital-based" line of thinking in setting the direction for reform. It renders only a very sketchy account of the primary health care services that can effectively help to relieve the pressure on hospital services. The grossly overlooked primary health care services result in a fallacy, that is, the high operating costs of hospitals are tantamount to the high costs of the entire health care system. Yet the consultation paper seems to imply that patient-caused wastage is one of the reasons for the high operating costs of hospitals. It, therefore, says that enhancing patients' cost awareness will help cost control and that one effective way to raise patients' cost awareness is to raise the charges for services. When a patient feels the pressure of higher charges, he will have been inculcated with the concept of cost awareness. Cost control will then be achieved automatically. This method of cost control and the capping of hospitals' spending thus become the core of the reform covering the entire health care system. I think that such reform measures are obviously detrimental to the entire health care system.
I do not at all belittle the importance of cost-effectiveness. But I am against over emphasizing cost-effectiveness. I am even more against neglecting the patients' needs for the sake of cost-effectiveness. Our health care services are deficient. Our trying to introduce more market factors or factors of privatization under these circumstances will only result in higher charges for one group of people and less services for the other. This is the last thing I want to see. Since the publication of the consultation paper, a very strong public voice has been calling for the keeping of health care services as a kind of social welfare service. I deeply share their views, in particular the views of the toiling masses, the elderly, the disabled and the chronically ill. These people have a special need for medical care protection. I hope that the Government will continue to provide them with full protection that is adequate and reasonable.
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MRS PEGGY LAM (in Cantonese): Madam deputy, on the last page of the consultation paper Towards Better Health, it is said in print, "Our mission is to serve you." This undertaking by the Government is good and should be welcomed by the public. Yet, from the reaction of most members of the public to the consultation paper, it seems that they are somewhat afraid even though the Government is willing to provide them services. What are they afraid of? They are afraid that medical charges will be pegged to costs and that, at the end of the day, they will have to bear all the costs. Someone said to me, "The operating cost of an acute general hospital is $2,105 per bed per day at the moment. The average patient spends 4.4 days in the hospital. The cost is $9,200 or so. The median monthly income of an employed person is only $7,000 (based on statistics for the current year). Should medical charges be pegged to costs, we will have to go into debt if we ever fall ill." Members of the public still hold such wrong notions despite my repeated attempts to explain the case to them. Actually, the Government has not said that it intends to recover in full the cost of health care. The Secretary for Health and Welfare has made the assurance many times in public. Still, the public cannot set their minds at rest. The reason for this may be that the initial rationale behind the consultation paper is not good enough or that its wording is inappropriate.
The public is further afraid that, as medical science advances and as the community expectations rise, the already expensive health care costs will rise even higher. Then, if the Government adopts the percentage subsidy approach recommended by the consultation paper, the burden on the public will become heavier and heavier. Therefore, many people have told me that, as long as costs are beyond patients' control, the public will not accept a policy that pegs health care charges to costs. I feel the same way.
I agree that health care services are social welfare services and that the Government should meet most of the expenses. However, health care services are different from other welfare services in that they are essential to everybody. Everybody, no matter rich or poor, may fall ill and be admitted into the hospital. Therefore, I am convinced that the principle which states that "those with the means should pay more" has a place in the area of health care charges. That is to say, we should ask those with the means to pay more and those with less means to pay less. However, how are we going to define "those with the means"? How are we going to determine the "extra amount to be paid"? These questions have yet to be studied by all.
Here, I venture to offer a few ideas to induce others to come forward with more valuable ones. For instance, we may rank families by their average household incomes for fee charging purpose. Where special circumstances warrant, a family may be charged at a lower level. However, one thing must be insisted on, that is, charges should not affect a patient's quality of life. Of course, we should take the cost of living index into consideration. In fact, a simple ranking system can help to cut the administrative expenses of complex waiver processing. As for the additional revenue collected, we think that it
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should be earmarked for the improvement of health care services to benefit all members of the public.
Furthermore, I think that consideration may be given to charging a fee for accident and emergency services. Since the public are willing to pay for out-patient services, I really see no reason why users of the accident and emergency services are not charged for their service simply because they are for emergency only. While the collection of such a fee may not be enough to deter the abuse of the accident and emergency services, it will generate additional revenue without drastically affecting the quality of life of members of the public.
The consultation paper provides a list of target groups of patients who are eligible for waivers of charges. I think that there should be more than four eligible target groups. There are people who would rather work to the last breath to earn a living than apply for public assistance. This may be due to typical Chinese pride, or may be the amount of public assistance is too meagre. An elderly couple in Wan Chai recently came to me for help. The man was already over 80, but was still working as an agent. That is a real-life example. Many people will refrain from applying for public assistance as long as they are able to live from hand to mouth. But, in case an unexpected situation arises, such as birth, senility, illness or death, they have no savings to tide over the difficulties. I reiterate that, when setting up a system of waivers, the Government must take social realities into consideration. We do not want to see people who have reached the retirement age of 60 but are not yet eligible for waivers of charges until they are 70. Nor do we want to see those chronically ill being denied of financial assistance because they are still working.
I agree in principle with the idea of "B" class beds. However, the Government must do some careful calculation to make sure that the revenue from "B" class beds will justify itself for the resources consumed and any impact caused. For instance, "B" class beds will take up space and equipment, and they may cause nuisance to other patients. If it is found that the Government's subsidy to users of "B" class beds will be more than, or as much as, that given to users of general ward beds, I think that we may as well do without the "B" class beds. True, it is good to provide consumers with more choices. Still, now that health care services are still costly and not abundantly available, the Government should look after the interests of the majority and leave it to the private hospitals to provide "B" class beds.
The consultation paper also dwells on medical insurance. It is well known that insurers of medical insurance policies do not favour the elderly, the infirm, the handicapped or the disabled whereas the young and the healthy are most welcome. As a matter of fact, to encourage the public to take up medical insurance voluntarily through education is in the overall interests of the community, for, over the long term, private health insurance coverage will reduce the burden of financing health care by the Government. On the contrary, if compulsory insurance is to be implemented, the elderly, the infirm,
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the handicapped and the disabled will probably find the premium hard to afford. The Government will have to subsidize them and incur extra administrative expenses. As a result, the premium paid by the public will partly go to meet the insurance companies' administrative expenses and partly become their profit.
Many critics have found the consultation paper Towards Better Health to be impressive but worthless and it solely deals with the issues of medical charges. However, I have noticed that the Health and Welfare Branch has put forward proposals for primary health care. The Hospital Authority, which was set up two-odd years ago, is beginning to implement gradually the initiatives for management and efficiency improvement that it has once promised. I hope that the authorities concerned will publish more reports for the information of the public. This will forestall unnecessary speculation and criticism among members of the public.
That the population is aging is an undisputed fact. Working in Wan Chai, I am especially aware of this problem. Therefore, I am relieved to learn that the Government will provide additional hospital beds for the elderly. Still, I hope that the Government will implement measures on primary health care soon.
The buzzer sounded a continuous beep.
PRESIDENT'S DEPUTY: Mrs LAM, it is time.
MRS PEGGY LAM (in Cantonese): Madam deputy, with these remarks, I support Dr LAM Kui-chun's motion.
MR LAU WAH-SUM (in Cantonese): Madam deputy, the availability of comprehensive medical services is often employed as one of the criteria to assess a modern society. Apart from food, clothing, shelter and transportation — basic necessities of life — people also attach great importance to medical services, health care and the prevention of disease. Now that the Government has released Towards Better Health — A Consultation Document, I hope that the general public will take an active part in voicing their opinions for the Government's consideration so that a more comprehensive medical policy may be formulated.
We have heard views concerning pegging medical charges to costs and on medical insurance during the consultation period. But the crux of the matter at the moment is that on the one hand, the advancement of medical technology and the expenditure on increasingly expensive equipment drive health care costs up dramatically, and on the other, people's expectations of medical services are rising as well. If we do not allocate sufficient resources, the quality of health care services in Hong Kong is likely to suffer as a result. There is one aspect
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which we often overlook: The growth rate in the cost of providing medical services over the past few years has far exceeded that of inflation. On the face of it, the resources allocated by the Government have been on the increase but actually it cannot solve the real problem. Although it is the Government's plan to raise the recurrent spending on health care by 22% in real terms over the period from 1992 to 1997, however, according to the Hospital Authority's computation, such an increase in government spending will hardly meet the present level of medical expenses. Should the Government not provide additional resources, we shall not be able to achieve the kind of improvements that the community expects. As a matter of fact, the considerable increase in medical costs in recent years, which has posed a problem to Hong Kong, has crucial bearing on medical services worldwide. In the event that the Government, though it tried its best to maintain a highly efficient administrative system to improve cost-effectiveness and to spend more efficiently, still fails to solve the problems stemming from inadequate resources, then it must work out other feasible alternatives. Should we consider the idea of asking the patients to bear part of the medical costs in accordance with their affordability? This is the heart of the problem of our existing medical services policy and the theme of the consultation document as well.
Some may hold that medical service is a kind of social welfare and it is unjustifiable for the Government to raise the present medical charges. But we should bear in mind that at present, charges for public hospital beds account for only 2% of the cost, with the Government, or the taxpayers, footing 98% of the bill. This is a kind of social welfare, is it not? Free medical services are, as a matter of fact, likely to be abused. I feel that to meet the rising medical costs, apart from asking the patients to bear part of the costs in accordance with their affordabilities, we must also have in place a sound, well-structured, fair and equitable waiver system. With such a system, we may then live up to the principle that no one should be denied adequate medical treatment through lack of means. The waiver system should be simple, easy to implement and incur no additional administrative costs. Take for an example, the consultation document proposes that persons aged 70 and above in receipt of Old Age Allowance be granted partial waiver. Will the Government consider a regressive scale of waiver system, that is, taking 60 years of age as the starting point, the older a patient, the higher the rate of waiver and full waiver for those who reach 80 years of age? This system must be simple to operate and not be too rigid. All we have to do is to check a patient's identity card to ascertain his or her age. It will not add to the administrative costs. Furthermore, in case in a family there are more than one member being admitted to the hospital, is it possible for the Government to grant them partial or full waiver in the light of their length of hospitalization? As for the chronically ill patients, could the Government consider formulating a system whereby they could enjoy reasonable partial waiver or full waiver in view of the type of disease and length of hospitalization? The authorities concerned will certainly encounter many technical problems when this system is implemented. But the most important thing is that the public should find this system convenient in terms of submitting application and under the system, the Administration would find it easy to check
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a patient's age such as verification of age by means of his or her identity card. Besides, a clear record on the length of a patient's stay in hospital and the accounts of hospitalization should also be properly kept. To keep the administrative costs to a minimum, the Government should scrap, if possible, the existing income and means test.
The consultation document is to seek public views so as to identify ways to upgrade the present level of services in order that the local public could continue to enjoy quality medical services. I hold that as a community, we should make available sufficient resources to ensure that those with financial difficulties should enjoy proper medical care. Against this background, we need to have a comprehensive waiver system in place.
Madam deputy, with these remarks, I support Dr LAM Kui-chun's motion.
MR JIMMY McGREGOR: Madam deputy, I have to advise the Council that my comments on health care issues represent, as exactly as I can make them, the considered views of the Hong Kong Democratic Foundation (HKDF). These views do not necessarily represent the views of my constituency although I think a good many Members would agree with them.
In his speech to the Council last year, the Governor promised a real increase of 22% in spending on health care over the following four years and in this year's speech, he detailed some of the specific projects going forward. There is no doubt that the people of Hong Kong welcome the increased allocation of resources. However, there is concern that funds allocated are spent effectively and there is undoubtedly a strong feeling that this may not be happening to the full extent.
Hong Kong's present health care system consists of a mixture of public and private provision of services. The public sector provides about 90% of the secondary and tertiary care facilities. And conversely it is estimated that the private sector delivers as much as 85% of primary care. The facts that 85% of primary health care are provided by the private sector and that 40% of those using private sector secondary and tertiary facilities are below the $14,000 per month household income level suggest a strong bias in the community towards private medicine.
Under such circumstances, we should be seeking to encourage the shifting of the burden of provision of secondary and tertiary services from the public to the private sector over a period of years. Initiatives are needed to facilitate this process. It is considerable scope, through better management practices and increased competition, for the providers of private health care services to become more cost effective, thus enabling more of the population to afford private medicine.
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In this respect, a key requirement is the retraction of the prohibition by the Hong Kong Medical Council against the formation of closed panels of doctors by medical insurers, which effectively prevents the development of managed care groups such as health maintenance organizations and preferred proviso organizations.
Since the provision of effective primary care has a crucial bearing on the need for secondary and tertiary services, it seems an anomaly that the provision of this in the public sector should be left to a separate body. And it would be logical if this function was incorporated into the sphere of activity of the Hospital Authority, which could and should possibly be renamed the Health Authority.
The Department of Health ought to have no involvement in the provision of any type of health care service. Its role should be concentrated on the development of health care policy and the regulation and monitoring of all the provisos of services for health care needs. A policy should be developed to restrain the growth and the cost of the provisional public health care services.
The HKDF recommends four or five year plans be established, with a periodic review undertaken of the public view of the service provided and the future expectations to provide the basis for planning in the next cycle. Annual expenditure should be indexed to the inflation rate, with a proviso that improvements should always be sought to try to keep the cost of providing the existing services at least at the same standard, below the rate of inflation. The granting of additional funds, over and above the inflation factor, to provide for expanded or enhanced services should be governed by a formula based on, but not necessarily commensurate with, the rate of growth in GDP.
With regard to charging for public sector services, the HKDF does not believe that the community wishes to see any significant change from the present system. The Foundation does not support suggestions that the Hospital Authority should recover some of its costs through the provision of semi-private beds, as it believes it should focus exclusively on the role of provider of efficient low cost public medicine.
The HKDF believes that there is a good case to be considered for the Government to provide financial assistance to encourage the less well-off to take up medical insurance. At present medical insurance covering an adequate level of in-patient and out-patient service can be obtained for an annual premium of around $3,000 per person. The Foundation proposes that the Government institute a pilot scheme whereby it issues vouchers for possibly up to 300 000 people not presently covered by health insurance, subsidizing the cost of purchasing a year's worth of insurance. If the Government was to offer a subsidy to these, for example 300 000, of a $1,000 contribution towards the cost of the purchase of their private insurance, it would cost only $300 million or at a subsidy level of $1,500 per person, $450 million for a year. However, it
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could probably move at least 300 000 patients out of the public hospital system and considerably more out of the public out-patient system.
Based on the Hospital Authority's 1993-94 forecast expenditure of $12.34 billion for a cost of $300 million to $400 million, depending on the level of subsidy, 5% of the present public hospital patient population could be switched to the private sector, effecting a worthwhile saving. On the assumption that the pilot scheme proved to be successful, it would probably be economic to extend the voucher private insurance subsidy scheme to well over 1 million people.
We must recognize that there is no such thing as a quick fix to the health care issue. Rather we need to work towards a steady implementation of improvements and reform in our system. We should seek to establish a framework that is flexible enough to accommodate at one end sophisticated private medicine and at the other a good standard, very low cost public sector service for those whose circumstances are insufficient to enable them to obtain private medicine.
Madam deputy, I support the amended motion.
MR PETER WONG: Madam deputy, the consultative document, pursuing a distinctive objective, has painted a glorious picture of the way forward for Hong Kong's health care services. Unfortunately, two thirds of the paper is devoted to describing the existing health services and delivery systems, leaving a disproportionate one third to explain just how that lofty objective can be achieved. As such, information gaps are left unfilled, questions remain unanswered, and the vision "towards better health" becomes obscure.
I shall address the health policy objective from an accountant's point of view. Cost
I concur with the Government's view that in order to meet the health care needs of our ageing population, escalating medical costs, and rising expectations of Hong Kong people, a new financing structure of our health care services is needed. Without reform in financing and given a limited budget, medical and health costs cannot remain sustainable except in a buoyant economy and the quality of existing services is likely to deteriorate. At last year's motion debate on fee charging for health services, I emphasized the need for the Government to define the extent subsidized health services will be provided, so that the cost can be split between the taxpayers, service users, the private sector and medical insurance. The consultative document, however, has failed to tell us in concrete terms the projected cost increase up to the year 2000, based on which we can assess the adequacy of the proposed medical spending. The Government plans to raise the recurrent spending on health care, being 9.7% of the 1993-94 total
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budget, by 22% in real terms over the next five years. However, can the 22% rise really catch up with the requirements of 30 660 projected public hospital beds in Hong Kong by the year 2000 — a 41% increase over the existing 21 684 beds? The cost of providing in patient treatment to those aged 65 and above will increase from $2,721 million in 1992 to $3,838 million in 2001, also representing a cost increase of 41%. The lack of a clear commitment by the Government on the financial aspect of health care has given rise to the alleged cut-back in medical spending and the criticism that the Government is shirking its basic responsibility.
Accessibility
I fully support the proposal to trim down the total budget of the 80% to 100% government subsidy for public sector patients through good management practice, better organization structure and the inculcation of a business culture in the health sector so as to maximize resources and cost-efficiency. With improved service quality, higher fees affordable to the public could logically be charged, as outlined in the Percentage Subsidy Approach (Option A) of the Green Paper. I favour this logic based on my conviction that individual contributions where affordable will regulate demand for public sector services rationally, spread the cost of health care equitably and release funds for service improvement.
In calculating fees and charges, it is necessary to adopt a standard costing method based on comprehensive management information, pragmatic input and output indicators and rational pricing criteria. Fees should be pitched at a realistic, objective level in order to maintain a level playing field with the private sector in achieving partial cost recovery. The consultative document does not explain how it arrives at the percentage contributions which users are asked to make to the operating cost of general ward beds. Will a 5% contribution to the $2,105 bed-day cost, being $105, be affordable to the average household and how much extra revenue will it yield? Can the median annual household income be used as the sole criterion for setting fees without taking into consideration the type of treatment and the length of stay required? How does the waiver system operate without being abused and what administrative costs are involved? On such complex issue as the fee charging mechanism, it is unrealistic to expect that members of the public can shift through all the conflicting evidence and make the appropriate decisions.
Quality
Similarly, I also have reservations about the Target Group Approach (Option B) which offers convenience, superior comfort and the luxury of choice to those who can so afford. Even if patients of the semi-private rooms in public hospitals pay a higher fee ranging from $800 to $1,200 per day, the Government will still have to shoulder 40% to 60% of the operating cost. It would be disingenuous to upgrade our beds only to attract private patients and
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to end up with a larger subsidy in having to provide the luxurious facilities of the Class B Beds that should also incur higher running costs.
The document has taken pains to emphasize the improvement of the quality of health services, the cause of public complaints. Option E in the Green Paper — Prioritization of Treatment Approach, in my view, falls far short of rationalizing the deployment of medical resources as a means to contain cost. The paper has not touched on the significant issue of co-ordination between in-patient and specialist out-patient treatments; nor has it shown us how to foster a closer relationship between hospital services and primary health care which serves the gate-keeper and after care functions.
Efficiency
Another funding strategy put forward by the Green Paper is the Compulsory Comprehensive Insurance Approach (Option D) to which I strongly object. Not only will risk aversion by insurance companies leave the elderly, chronic patients and the unemployed out in the cold, over-utilization due to moral hazard will bring cost escalation, as shown by health insurance in the United States. More importantly, in Hong Kong where medical services are essentially free and insurance is a new phenomenon, compulsory health insurance is bound to generate public Jiscontent. On the other hand, the Co-ordinated Voluntary Insurance Approach (Option C) is closest to my thinking of an ideal interface of government and free market systems. It promotes cost containment through government monitoring; provides equitable access by directing demand of those who can so afford to the private sector while retaining free medical service to those in need; enhances medical service quality through competition between the public and private sectors; and offers administrative efficiency using the management of a designated public body.
Madam deputy, it is commendable for the consultative document to try to change the traditional "doctors' sovereignty" by asking the public to participate in the decision making process. However, to be able to do this, the public must be informed about the soaring medical cost. In order to enable the public to make informed decisions on health matters, widespread public education with practical information, analytical data and comparative study should replace the high sounding principles and statements in the document that has taken the Administration almost two years to complete.
Madam deputy, with these remarks, I support Dr LAM Kui-chun's motion. THE PRESIDENT resumed the Chair.
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MR ALBERT CHAN (in Cantonese): Mr President, when the Government published the consultative document Towards Better Health on 14 July this year, controversy immediately arose in the community. What the public is most concerned about is the charging proposal for hospital services. This so-called "cost-pegged" method for calculating fees and charges has indeed caused worries to the general public, especially the middle and lower strata of society, the patients who have to use hospital services frequently but cannot afford higher charges, the elderly and the chronic patients. Although the Government has not yet decided upon any particular plan, we consider it necessary for the Government to make clear, before it has made any substantial decision, what public medical service is.
We think that public medical service is a kind of social welfare. During the past years, the Government has undertaken the responsibility for and expenditure of the medical service. In providing subsidy to public medical service, the Government should not apply the principles of "cost recovery" or "users pay". Although it has been argued that increase of charges would increase the choices provided by hospitals, public medical service significantly impacts on people from all walks of life and the public is entitled to a medical service that gives equal treatment to everyone in terms of charging. In this regard, we consider it inadvisable to subject part of the public to unequal treatment because of economic reasons.
In view of the close relation between medical policy and the daily life of the public, as well as the far reaching consequences of such a policy, I, together with some members of the Tsuen Wan District Board, launched a number of consultation forums and signature campaigns during the last two months. During these activities, leaflets were handed out to the public and many of them have signed their support. One of the main demands of the public is manifested in the opposition to the proposal of pegging fees to costs. Among our supporters, it is the elderly that are most active and enthusiastic, and they feel great discontent with such a proposal. So much so that many of them have even called for their neighbours to sign their support. The enthusiasm of these elderly persons has fully reflected their discontent with the proposal. Some of them keep complaining to us that medical fees will definitely surge if they are pegged to costs and will become a burden to them. Although the Government has retained some kind of waiver system, these elderly people as well as many other members of the public worry that they may not be under the coverage of the waiver system. If unfortunately accidents befall them, and the medical fees are beyond their affordability, they will feel that their lives are almost finished.
There will be criticisms that the arguments above represent the views of only part of the public and that they cannot represent the views of the general public. Indeed, what is the view of the people of Hong Kong? In order to further collect the public's views, a number of opinion polls have been conducted by organizations which are concerned with the consultative document. The United Democrats of Hong Kong (UDHK) conducted two opinion polls at the beginnings of August and September. The results of the two
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polls are very consistent. Among the 1 078 persons polled and the 1 337 questionnaires returned, 90% are against the cost-pegged charging system proposed in the consultative document, and over 90% are against the proposal of "itemized charging". 70% of them said that they would not use the semi-private rooms. Only the higher income families have shown a willingness to use such rooms, and the percentage is not high. Among the families with a monthly income of over $20,000, only one-fourth have indicated a willingness to use semi-private rooms. These opinion polls help us understand how the public regards medical charging. According to the results of the polls, an overwhelming 97% consider public medical service as a kind of social welfare which the Government should undertake to provide. They all agree that the Government should make a large one-time allocation of funds to support and maintain the public medical service.
Mr President, the title of the Governor's policy address this year is Today's Success, Tomorrow's Challenges. Among the various services provided, the medical service is the pillar of the public's health. If the foundation of this pillar is shaken, the public's health will be jeopardized. In such case, how can they meet the challenges of tomorrow?
Mr President, in order that the public can lead a healthy life, the Government should totally relinquish the policy of "pegging fees to costs".
The original motion of Dr LAM Kui-chun lacks a sense of direction and the courage to undertake the responsibility of providing medical service. In contrast, the amendment by Dr Conrad LAM reflects the demands of the public. Therefore, I am against the original motion of Dr LAM Kui-chun and will support the amendment by Dr Conrad LAM.
Before I conclude my speech, I would like to respond to a question raised by Mrs Selina CHOW. She asked whether members of UDHK, in particular Mr Martin LEE, would use the same medical service that the lower income groups use. Her question implied a contempt for the services used by the lower income groups. She seemed to imply that the members of the Liberal Party are not willing to use the same services that the lower income groups use. We take strong exception to such kind of contempt and disrespect for the lower income groups. Her words also revealed that she disdains to use the medical services currently used by the low income groups. If this is how she thinks, she should all the more demand the Government to improve the services now provided to the lower income groups such that these services can meet her standards.
Mr President, I so make my submission.
MR VINCENT CHENG: Mr President, I want to congratulate the Secretary for Health and Welfare on the consultation document. It is a good piece of work — readable, honest, and to the point. It proudly sets out Hong Kong's achievements in health care, and at the same time, highlights the problems we
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have and hence the need for improvement. It has listed clearly the various options available, as well as their pros and cons. I sincerely hope that government papers in future would be just as readable. Some government papers, if printed in the form of a book, would be as thick as a dictionary. The difference is that they do not tell you what they mean.
I agree with the Government the problems we face or will face: aging population, more expensive medical technology, and rising community expectations on the quality of medical services. I also support fully the objectives set out as well as the commitment made by the Government that no one will be deprived of medical care because he cannot pay.
Health care financing is a problem in most countries, if not all. The United States is now debating intensively ways to control expenditure on medicare. For those who feel that a high medical expenses to GNP ratio is a measure of success, I would urge them to look at the United States experience.
We do not have any easy solution either. I would like to outline my own basic principles on financing health care:
(1) We should provide high quality medical care and we need additional resources. The additional resources should not come from higher tax. Patients who can afford to pay should pay for part, if not all, of the cost instead of just paying for their meals;
(2) Medical service for those who cannot afford should remain subsidized by taxpayers. I will go one step further. Elderly people should continue to receive free or heavily subsidized medical care, regardless of the savings they may have accumulated during their life. It would be wrong to ask elderly people to face the prospect of a bottomless medical pit into which they may have to pour their lifelong savings and end up depending on social security. This would be disgraceful.
According to the Government, the cost of providing in-patient treatment to those aged 65 and above will increase from $2.7 billion in 1992 to $3.8 billion in 2001 and $4.3 billion in 2011 in today's price. They are not small sums. But they must be borne by society and paid out of general revenue. That is the least we should do.
The question is what should be the way ahead. Of the five options, I will write off the prioritization of treatment approach. This is a bureaucratic approach. It would be very difficult for the medical profession to determine priorities. It would be impossible for patients to determine whether they should or should not go to a public hospital for treatment. It would invoke the wrath of society because patients would be turned away.
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The Government should perhaps go for a combination of the other options listed in the document:
On the level of subsidy:
(1) Instead of just paying for food, patients who can afford to pay should pay while those who cannot will be paid for by general revenue, that is, taxpayers;
(2) There should be a regressive scale for fees. Long-stay patients should, on a per day basis, pay progressively less than short-stay patients. I also feel that caps should be put so that patients would not have to worry about spending their life long savings on medical bills; and
(3) Semi-private rooms should be less subsidized than general wards.
Hong Kong's medical cost will have to be borne by the taxpayers as well as individuals rather than just taxpayers alone. Those who have a steady income must start to pay for at least part of the cost. It is their responsibility as well.
On the question of patients' affordability, some form of health insurance will be necessary.
I have doubts about depending entirely on private sector schemes as Hong Kong does not have a well developed medical insurance market. A dual system with some sort of government medical insurance schemes seems to me a better approach. It allows people to choose and introduces some competition to keep the premium down.
Mr President, time does not allow me to go into details. I could only outline my views on how health care should be financed. I hope we will hear more from the professionals in the medical as well as medical insurance field on this consultation paper. Employers, who should provide medical benefits to their workers, should also make their views known.
I disagree with the view that medical care should be treated solely as welfare, although the dividing line is rather blur. If we treat medical care solely as welfare, medical cost would have to be borne by taxpayers alone. Since we have a very narrow tax base, it is neither fair nor prudent to accept this philosophy and maintain the current system. Those who can afford must share the responsibility of paying for at least part of the medical cost. This is the only way ahead.
Mr President, I support the motion.