HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 2 June 1993 3859 OFFICIAL RECORD OF PROCEEDINGS
Wednesday, 2 June 1993
The Council met at half-past Two o'clock
PRESENT
THE PRESIDENT
THE HONOURABLE JOHN JOSEPH SWAINE, C.B.E., LL.D., Q.C., J.P.
THE CHIEF SECRETARY
THE HONOURABLE SIR DAVID ROBERT FORD, K.B.E., L.V.O., J.P.
THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY
THE HONOURABLE NATHANIEL WILLIAM HAMISH MACLEOD, C.B.E., J.P.
THE ATTORNEY GENERAL
THE HONOURABLE JEREMY FELL MATHEWS, C.M.G., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE ALLEN LEE PENG-FEI, C.B.E., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE MRS SELINA CHOW LIANG SHUK-YEE, O.B.E., J.P. THE HONOURABLE HUI YIN-FAT, O.B.E., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE MARTIN LEE CHU-MING, Q.C., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE DAVID LI KWOK-PO, O.B.E., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE NGAI SHIU-KIT, O.B.E., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE SZETO WAH
THE HONOURABLE TAM YIU-CHUNG
THE HONOURABLE ANDREW WONG WANG-FAT, O.B.E., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE LAU WONG-FAT, O.B.E., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE RONALD JOSEPH ARCULLI, J.P.
THE HONOURABLE MARTIN GILBERT BARROW, O.B.E., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE MRS PEGGY LAM, O.B.E., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE MRS MIRIAM LAU KIN-YEE, O.B.E., J.P.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 2 June 1993 3860 THE HONOURABLE LAU WAH-SUM, O.B.E., J.P.
DR THE HONOURABLE LEONG CHE-HUNG, O.B.E. THE HONOURABLE JAMES DAVID McGREGOR, O.B.E., I.S.O., J.P. THE HONOURABLE MRS ELSIE TU, C.B.E.
THE HONOURABLE PETER WONG HONG-YUEN, O.B.E., J.P. THE HONOURABLE ALBERT CHAN WAI-YIP
THE HONOURABLE VINCENT CHENG HOI-CHUEN THE HONOURABLE MOSES CHENG MO-CHI
THE HONOURABLE MARVIN CHEUNG KIN-TUNG, J.P. THE HONOURABLE CHEUNG MAN-KWONG
THE HONOURABLE CHIM PUI-CHUNG
REV THE HONOURABLE FUNG CHI-WOOD
THE HONOURABLE FREDERICK FUNG KIN-KEE THE HONOURABLE TIMOTHY HA WING-HO, M.B.E., J.P. THE HONOURABLE MICHAEL HO MUN-KA
DR THE HONOURABLE HUANG CHEN-YA
THE HONOURABLE SIMON IP SIK-ON, J.P.
DR THE HONOURABLE LAM KUI-CHUN
DR THE HONOURABLE CONRAD LAM KUI-SHING THE HONOURABLE LAU CHIN-SHEK
THE HONOURABLE EMILY LAU WAI-HING
THE HONOURABLE LEE WING-TAT
THE HONOURABLE ERIC LI KA-CHEUNG, J.P.
THE HONOURABLE FRED LI WAH-MING
THE HONOURABLE MAN SAI-CHEONG
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 2 June 1993 3861 THE HONOURABLE STEVEN POON KWOK-LIM
THE HONOURABLE HENRY TANG YING-YEN, J.P.
THE HONOURABLE TIK CHI-YUEN
THE HONOURABLE JAMES TO KUN-SUN
DR THE HONOURABLE SAMUEL WONG PING-WAI, M.B.E., J.P. DR THE HONOURABLE PHILIP WONG YU-HONG
DR THE HONOURABLE YEUNG SUM
THE HONOURABLE HOWARD YOUNG, J.P.
THE HONOURABLE ZACHARY WONG WAI-YIN
DR THE HONOURABLE TANG SIU-TONG, J.P.
THE HONOURABLE CHRISTINE LOH KUNG-WAI
THE HONOURABLE ROGER LUK KOON-HOO
THE HONOURABLE ANNA WU HUNG-YUK
ABSENT
THE HONOURABLE PANG CHUN-HOI, M.B.E.
THE HONOURABLE EDWARD HO SING-TIN, O.B.E., J.P.
IN ATTENDANCE
MR MICHAEL LEUNG MAN-KIN, C.B.E., J.P.
SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER
MR MICHAEL SUEN MING-YEUNG, J.P.
SECRETARY FOR HOME AFFAIRS
MR ALISTAIR PETER ASPREY, O.B.E., A.E., J.P.
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY
MR RONALD JAMES BLAKE, J.P.
SECRETARY FOR WORKS
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 2 June 1993 3862
MR ANTHONY GORDON EASON, J.P.
SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS
MR MICHAEL DAVID CARTLAND, J.P.
SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES
MR KWONG KI-CHI, J.P.
SECRETARY FOR THE TREASURY
THE CLERK TO THE LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL
MR CLETUS LAU KWOK-HONG
THE DEPUTY CLERK TO THE LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL MR PATRICK CHAN NIM-TAK
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 2 June 1993 3863 Papers
The following papers were laid on the table pursuant to Standing Order 14(2): Subject
Subsidiary Legislation L.N. No.
Water Pollution Control (Eastern Buffer Water
Control Zone) Order............................................................................. 169/93
Water Pollution Control (Eastern Buffer Water
Control Zone) (Appointed Days) Order................................................ 170/93
Statement of Water Quality Objectives (Eastern Buffer
Water Control Zone)............................................................................. 171/93
Water Pollution Control (Western Buffer Water
Control Zone) Order............................................................................. 172/93
Water Pollution Control (Western Buffer Water
Control Zone) (Appointed Days) Order................................................ 173/93
Statement of Water Quality Objectives (Western
Buffer Water Control Zone).................................................................. 174/93
Water Pollution Control (Southern Supplementary
Water Control Zone) Order................................................................... 175/93
Water Pollution Control (Southern Supplementary
Water Control Zone) (Appointed Days) Order ..................................... 176/93
Statement of Water Quality Objectives (Southern
Supplementary Water Control Zone) .................................................... 177/93
Water Pollution Control (Tolo Harbour Supplementary
Water Control Zone) Order................................................................... 178/93
Water Pollution Control (Tolo Harbour Supplementary
Water Control Zone) (Appointed Days) Order ..................................... 179/93
Statement of Water Quality Objectives (Tolo Harbour
Supplementary Water Control Zone) .................................................... 180/93
Companies Ordinance (Fee for Taking Affidavit,
Affirmation or Declaration) Notice ...................................................... 183/93
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 2 June 1993 3864
Companies (Amendment) Ordinance 1993 (10 of 1993)
(Commencement) Notice 1993............................................................. 184/93 Specification of Public Office .......................................................................... 185/93
Sessional Paper 1992-93
No. 82 — The Government Minute in response to the Report of the Public Accounts Committee dated March 1993
Address
The Government Minute in response to the Report of the Public Accounts Committee dated March 1993
CHIEF SECRETARY: Mr President, I table today the Government Minute setting out the Administration's response to Report No. 17A of the Public Accounts Committee on the Construction of the Hong Kong University of Science and Technology.
The Public Accounts Committee has produced a thorough and comprehensive report. It is the result of a careful and rigorous investigation, stretching over a period of 15 months. That much of it took place in public provides further testimony to the continuing development of a more open and accountable system of government.
The Administration accepts the Committee's recommendations. In particular, we agree that there is a need to ensure tighter control of joint projects undertaken by the Government and outside organizations. But, in the case of the University of Science and Technology, it was accepted that some flexibilities in the normal system of government control was necessary if the university was to be completed in time to admit its first students in 1991. It was the conscious decision of all concerned, including the Executive Council, that the project should be entrusted to the Jockey Club to ensure its speedy completion. A much greater degree of control would have been possible if the project had been constructed in the normal way through the Public Works Programme. But in that case it is unlikely that the project could have been completed on time. Indeed, we might still be waiting today for the first intake of students. That would not have been in Hong Kong's interests.
The central issue examined by the Committee — and the one that has attracted by far the most attention in the media — is, of course, the increase in the estimate for the project. This would not have been an issue if the original estimate approved by Finance Committee in May 1988 had been prepared on the basis of a detailed design. But it was not. Rather, it was based on a very preliminary design, which did not take account of the particular requirements of
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 2 June 1993 3865
a specialist university, and which was drawn up without the benefit of academic input. It was always likely therefore that it would be necessary to increase that estimate once the detailed design had been completed.
The other reason for the increase in the estimate was inflation. If the cost of a project is approved at the price prevailing at a particular date, it will normally have to be increased as a result of price increases during the construction period. There is nothing unusual in this; what is unusual is the high rate at which building costs increased during the planning and construction of the project. For example, the Building Services Index rose by 120% between the fourth quarter of 1987 and the second quarter of 1990.
On 1 June 1990, Finance Committee was informed that the estimate of the building cost had risen by $1,928 million compared with the estimate submitted in May 1988. Of this, $1,208 million was due to increases in building costs. The remaining $720 million was due to the inadequacies of the original estimate.
The Administration was aware from the start of the need to set a cost ceiling for the project. But arriving at a figure that was a firm and reliable estimate was made difficult by the fact that design and construction had to proceed in parallel in order to keep the project on schedule — the so-called "design-as-you-build" problem. Cost estimates were continuously changing, and it was not until shortly before June 1990 that all the parties concerned were able to reach agreement on a realistic project estimate.
More important than the question of whether the increase in the project estimate represented a cost overrun or an underestimate is the question of whether the public received value for money. Was there unnecessary or wasteful expenditure? The University of Science and Technology was generally built in accordance with the norms and standards recommended by the University and Polytechnics Grants Committee. These standards took account of the special requirements of a university devoted exclusively to science and technology. An undergraduate studying chemical engineering requires more extensive and sophisticated facilities than an undergraduate studying history. There were also a number of non-standard facilities. I am pleased that the Public Accounts Committee has accepted that there were good reasons for these facilities.
Any assessment of cost-effectiveness must include the benefits as well as the costs. Hong Kong's economy is undergoing major structural changes, with a continuing shift from assembly manufacturing to knowledge-intensive industries and high value-added production. Because of the University of Science and Technology, Hong Kong is now better equipped to take advantage of these changes, and to sustain its economic growth in the 1990s and beyond. Investing in the future can be an expensive business but Hong Kong needs institutions like the University of Science and Technology if it is to remain a prosperous and dynamic community.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 2 June 1993 3866
The Administration has learnt some lessons from this project and for that, it is grateful to the Public Accounts Committee. But, at the end of the day, nothing should detract from what has been achieved: a modern, high-technology and research-orientated university, completed three years earlier than originally planned, within a budget approved by the Finance Committee, staffed by some of the best minds in Asia, and which will benefit Hong Kong for many years to come.
MISS EMILY LAU: Mr President, a point of elucidation?
PRESIDENT: Yes, a short question for the purpose of elucidating some part of the statement.
MISS EMILY LAU: Thank you, Mr President. In his statement, the Chief Secretary said that the central issue examined by the Public Accounts Committee and one that has attracted by far the most attention in the media is the increase in the estimate for the project.
Mr President, I want to ask whether the Chief Secretary would agree that another issue which also attracted a lot of attention — maybe even more attention than the issue of cost overrun — is the architectural design competition. We spent a lot of time in the public hearing debating it and a lot of time deliberating and then we had a chapter on it. Can the Chief Secretary explain to this Council why in his statement here he has completely ignored that?
CHIEF SECRETARY: I would agree, Mr President, that the issue raised by Miss LAU did attract a fair degree of attention in the media. I would not, however, agree that it was the central issue examined by the Committee.
Oral answers to questions
Chinese children born to Hong Kong residents
1. MR LAU CHIN-SHEK asked (in Cantonese): According to a survey conducted by the Census and Statistics Department in mid-1991, the total number of children born to Hong Kong residents and living in China is estimated to be 310 200 who, as stipulated by the Basic Law, will automatically have the right of abode in Hong Kong after sovereignty over Hong Kong reverts to China in 1997. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council of the following:
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 2 June 1993 3867 (a) the latest number of such children living in China;
(b) whether assessment has been made of the possible changes in the number of such children in the next few years;
(c) what policies are in place to allow such children to settle in Hong Kong by stages before 1997, so as to avoid a sudden influx into the territory in 1997; and
(d) whether the estimated demand on social services will be adjusted, so that such children can get adequate public services after arrival in Hong Kong?
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY: Mr President, there is a false assumption in this question which I should like to correct at the outset. Not all children of Hong Kong residents will have the right of abode in Hong Kong on 1 July 1997. Only a person with at least one parent who was a permanent resident of Hong Kong at the time of his or her birth will automatically acquire the right of abode in Hong Kong on 1 July 1997.
The figure of 310 200 is an estimate of all those in China who have at least one parent in Hong Kong. A much smaller number will become Hong Kong permanent residents in 1997. We estimate that this number is approximately 75 000.
This estimate is based on the data available, including records of applications for Certificates of Absence of Marriage, Legal Immigration Statistics and Demographic Statistics. We have also made some assumptions about family size. I would stress, therefore, that this estimate is only an approximation.
We have been considering a number of options to allow such children to settle in Hong Kong by stages before 1997, so as to avoid a sudden influx in 1997. In so doing, we have also been taking into account the impact of any additional immigration into Hong Kong from China on public services, particularly education, health and other social services.
The present system of entry from China on one-way permits is operated by the Chinese Government. I expect that we will be discussing with them shortly the possibility of increasing the one-way permit quota to help to spread the arrival of these children who will acquire the right of abode in 1997.
MR LAU CHIN-SHEK (in Cantonese): Mr President, the Government's interpretation is based on the definition of children under the Basic Law and they include only those children whose parents were Hong Kong permanent residents at the time of their birth but not all Chinese children of Hong Kong
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 2 June 1993 3868
permanent residents. Is that only a unilateral understanding of the Hong Kong Government or has a consensus been reached with the Chinese side? If a consensus has been reached, does that mean that as opposed to the Sino-British Joint Declaration and the Basic law, the two sides have more understanding on this than what has been laid down in the Basic Law? Can the Attorney General indicate from a legal point of view whether the interpretation of Article 24(3), Chapter III of the Basic Law is the same as that mentioned in the first paragraph of the Secretary's reply?
PRESIDENT: I think the first part of the question is readily understandable. I am not sure if the last requires a cross-referencing, Secretary.
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY: Mr President, I think I can answer the question. I think that Mr LAU is referring to Article 24(2) and (3) of the Basic Law. Yes, we have reached a preliminary agreement on the interpretation of that section with the Chinese and that is the interpretation that I mentioned in my main answer whereby one parent must have had the right of abode in Hong Kong at the time of the child's birth.
MR ALBERT CHAN (in Cantonese): Mr President, in the fourth paragraph of his answer, the Secretary mentioned that such children would be allowed to settle in Hong Kong by stages, so as to avoid a sudden influx in 1997. But to my understanding, many Chinese mainlanders who come to settle in Hong Kong tend to live in old districts and in old tenement buildings and this leads to a shortage of social facilities, including education, health care and social welfare services in these districts. If there is a sudden influx in the future, the shortfall of such facilities in these districts will certainly be more acute. May I ask how the Administration is going to plan ahead against a sudden influx so as to evenly spread the arrival of these people among different districts or to attract them to live in different districts?
PRESIDENT: Mr CHAN, we are still talking about the children. Is that right, not generally?
MR ALBERT CHAN (in Cantonese): Mr President, I am mainly referring to the children because they need education service.
PRESIDENT: Secretary, are you able to answer?
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 2 June 1993 3869
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY: Yes, Mr President. I think, first of all, I would repeat that it is our objective to try to phase in this additional immigration commitment between now and 1997 and indeed after 1997. There obviously will be some additional commitments in terms of education and other services, but those commitments will be much easier to meet if the influx is phased in an orderly way rather than if it arises in one sudden mass in 1997. So I think the way in which we intend to meet the demand for services which this immigration commitment will cause is, first of all, to phase it in. We have estimated what the likely additional commitment as regards services is likely to be. It will require some additional expenditure, but we believe that the commitment can be met without any derogation of existing services.
CHIEF SECRETARY: Could I just add, Mr President, to emphasize the point that the Secretary has just made? We are very intent on ensuring that this commitment does not in any way impinge upon the services presently provided or any which have been promised in the Governor's address in terms of education or in terms of social services. We will honour the promises that have been made. Thank you, Mr President.
MR HENRY TANG: Mr President, I am somewhat confused by the second and third paragraphs of the Secretary's reply as to how he consolidates the figure of 310 000 down to 75 000. Considering that there are 310 000 of those children who have at least one parent in Hong Kong, the only logical conclusion I can draw is that nearly 240 000 of the parents are not Hong Kong permanent residents. Would the Secretary give me some help as to how he arrived at 75 000 from 310 000?
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY: Mr President, I think perhaps I should offer to give a reply in writing. (Annex I) This was an exercise done by professional statisticians and I think that I would have to ask them for some help in setting out the assumptions and calculations. But I think essentially what we are saying is that of those 310 000 children in China who have at least one parent resident in Hong Kong, we estimate that only 75 000 had a parent who was permanently resident and with the right of abode in Hong Kong at the time of their birth.
DR CONRAD LAM (in Cantonese): Mr President, the Secretary said in the fifth paragraph of his reply that the Administration would be discussing with the Chinese the possibility of increasing the one-way permit quota. May I ask the Secretary whether the quota given is at the discretion of the Hong Kong Government, the Chinese Government or the two Governments through negotiations?
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 2 June 1993 3870
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY: Mr President, the one-way permit system is operated by the Chinese authorities and they issue the permits. But it would be our intention, if we discuss this matter with them, that we should propose that they should make special arrangements for the children who will have the right of abode in Hong Kong after 1997.
MR MICHAEL HO (in Cantonese): Mr President, recently I have heard that the Administration is conducting a study on the impact of the arrival of these people on our education, health care and social welfare services. Can the Administration inform this Council whether the Security Branch and the relevant policy branches are conducting such a study and will the report of the study be published and if so, when?
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY: Mr President, yes, we have considered the impact and the commitment the various options for phasing in the arrival of these 75 000 will have on our education and other services. And as I said, we do need to discuss the arrangements first with the Chinese authorities because they operate the one-way permit system. I hope that we will be able to do that in the reasonably near future and then to make an announcement, but I cannot, I am afraid, put a firm date on it at this stage.
MR TAM YIU-CHUNG (in Cantonese): Mr President, it was mentioned in the second paragraph of the main reply that according to estimate, the number of these children was about 75 000. If the quota for one-way permit only increases slightly, and all these children under the quota cannot come to Hong Kong by phases before 1997, will there be a sudden influx after 1997 or will they flock to Hong Kong through illegal means?
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY: Mr President, I think it is difficult to answer a "what if" question of that nature. But I would repeat that what we are intending to do is to try to find a means of phasing in the arrival over the next four or five years of the great majority of this estimated 75 000 children, and so to avoid a sudden influx at any one time.
Industrial accidents on ACP projects
2. DR TANG SIU-TONG asked (in Cantonese): In view of the mishap at the construction site of the Tsing Ma Bridge, which is one of the Airport Core Programme Projects, when a crane collapsed on 13 April this year, claiming the lives of two persons, will the Government inform this Council of:
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 2 June 1993 3871
(a) the number of industrial accidents that have occurred in connection with the new airport projects and the number of deaths and injuries involved therein; and
(b) the measures that have been taken by relevant departments to reduce the hazards of industrial accidents in connection with the new airport projects?
SECRETARY FOR WORKS: Mr President,
(a) Up to 30 April this year there were 501 industrial accidents on ACP projects in which three workers were killed and 499 were injured.
The overall industrial accident rate of ACP projects is about 90 per 1 000 workers per year and the fatal accident rate is 0.54 per 1 000 workers per year. For comparison, the corresponding rates for other current public works contracts up to the end of 1992 are roughly 99 and 0.71.
(b) The following measures have been taken by the Government to reduce the hazards:
(i) The issue of ACP Construction Safety Manual
In 1992, the Works Branch with the assistance of the Labour Department issued an ACP Construction Safety Manual. This was distributed to all parties involved in ACP projects including the works departments, consulting engineers, contractors and the workers unions. The manual states, in detail, those requirements which will ensure the best safety practices being used for ACP.
(ii) The formation of the Construction Safety Steering Committee
This committee which is chaired by myself is known as the ACP Construction Safety Steering Committee. It provides policy guidance to address ACP wide construction safety issues. Its members include relevant government departments (for example, Labour Department, Fire Services Department and works departments) as well as non government bodies such as the Provisional Airport Authority and the Mass Transit Railway Corporation. The committee receives reports and recommendation from full-time safety experts, who are in contact with ACP contracts on the ground.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 2 June 1993 3872
(iii) The formation of Safety Management Committee and Safety Committee
On each ACP site, such committees monitor the implementation of safety measure and a Site Safety Committee provides a formal forum for contractor's management to discuss construction safety issues with those at working level.
(iv) Formation of Safety Management Unit in the Works Branch
This unit has been established in Works Branch to visit and regularly audit ACP sites and their safety standards. Reports are seen by myself and the relevant works directors, and direct action is taken with their support whenever necessary.
(v) Choosing contractors who give proper consideration to construction safety
At prequalification and tendering stages, past performance and commitment to construction safety is an important criteria in the selection process.
(vi) Safety requirements in the ACP contracts
These requirements are detailed and incorporated to ensure that adequate safety obligations are identified. The tender evaluation process takes into account the contractors' proposed manner of discharging these safety obligations if awarded the contract.
(vii) Safety courses
Safety courses have been organized on accident prevention. Safety management training courses for site staff supervising ACP contracts have also been organized.
(viii) Database
A reliable database for construction accidents on ACP sites is being compiled to facilitate the monitoring of accident rates, but particularly to analyse the causes of accidents and formalize measures to prevent such accidents.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 2 June 1993 3873 (ix) A special safety team under Labour Department
A special safety team under Labour Department has been created and specially tasked with work safety for ACP projects since 1992. Its main duties are:
(1) to enforce safety legislation;
(2) to investigate complaints on site safety;
(3) to further provide safety training to site staff;
(4) to investigate serious or fatal accidents;
(5) to help establish and monitor the performance of site safety management committees; and of course,
(6) to provide advice on construction safety and health matters to the Works Branch, the departments, the New Airport Projects
Co-ordination Office, the Provisional Airport Authority and
the MTRC.
DR TANG SIU-TONG (in Cantonese): Mr President, according to information available, a working group was set up in 1991 to draw up new legislation to control the safety of crane operations. May I know its progress and the measures the Administration has to prevent the recurrence of incidents similar to the one happened on 13 April?
SECRETARY FOR WORKS: Mr President, yes, the Government does have plans to further control the safety of crane operations. It is now amending the Factories and Industrial Undertakings (Lifting Appliances and Lifting Gear) Regulations. These main amendments include:
1. the compulsory employment of certified, trained and competent crane operators;
2. specification in clear terms of the qualifications of competent examiners; 3. provision of a more precise legal definition of "competent";
4. mandatory installation of automatic safe load indicators on cranes; and also, 5. increasing the frequency of examination of cranes.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 2 June 1993 3874
As far as the accident which occurred at Tsing Ma is concerned, the findings and recommendations are still under detailed investigation. The Labour Department has completed a preliminary investigation and we are awaiting the results of metallurgical examinations from experts. Where we can, the findings which have been identified to date are certainly being made known throughout the ACP contracts, and indeed all construction contracts, to ensure that if there were to be any similarities, action would be taken accordingly.
MR STEVEN POON (in Cantonese): Mr President, in paragraph (b)(v) of the reply, the Administration said that contractors' past record would be an important criteria in the assessment or selection process. We understand however that very often these projects are not carried out by the principal contractor but by subcontractors or sub-sub-contractors. When an accident occurs, very often it is hard to find out for whom these people work. Has the Administration considered requiring all workers working on airport sites to register before they enter the site and to produce proof that they have a good safety record and that they understand and have knowledge about site safety? If the answer is in the negative, can the Administration inform this Council how it can ensure that workers entering the site do know what site safety is?
SECRETARY FOR WORKS: Mr President, the examination of main contractors' performance is just a first step in the process of identifying those contractors who have a good safety record as against those who may not. Of course, a good safety record by itself means that that main contractor's management of his subcontractors, and indeed of his subcontractor labour suppliers, must have been adequate to produce that degree of performance. The methods that he proposes to employ for a contract that he is tendering under the ACP would also be part of the method specification which he submits with his tender and which is subjected to expert scrutiny during the tender assessment process.
So far as individual workers and management are concerned, training courses are conducted with the assistance of the Labour Department and with the support of the unions. The safety message is being conveyed to individual workers, and under an ACP contract workers are taken through an induction course where aspects of labour safety particular to that contract are brought to their attention.
MR LAU CHIN-SHEK (in Cantonese): Mr President, the industrial accident rate of new airport projects was as high as 90 per 1 000 workers last year, much higher than the original estimate of 60 per 1 000 workers and this represents a 50% increase. The projection of fatal accident was zero but now the figure was three. Will the Secretary indicate whether the measures referred to in paragraph (b) of the reply were aimed at those target objectives? Does the
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 2 June 1993 3875
Administration have any contingency measures to reduce the number of industrial accidents?
SECRETARY FOR WORKS: Mr President, the Honourable Member is perfectly correct in stating that we are not achieving our target objectives of 60 and zero, as he has indicated. I do not wish to offer excuses in this forum, but I would say that we are not satisfied with the present rate of industrial accidents on ACP contracts, even though, as I have indicated, these are better than for our Public Works Programme contracts and they are significantly better than what is achieved overall in Hong Kong when one takes into account both public and private construction endeavours. But we are certainly not satisfied, and we are certainly intending to do everything possible to bring our rates down to our target figure.
As a further step, we will be introducing a Safety Award Scheme this month with the support of all contractors, the unions and other components of the Hong Kong construction industry to drive home, we hope, the safety message.
Non-emergency ambulance service
3. DR LEONG CHE-HUNG asked: As plans are being made for the Hospital Authority to take over from the Fire Services Department part of its non-emergency ambulance service, will the Administration inform this Council which part and what percentage of the service is proposed to be taken over; and what are the implications of the take-over in terms of cost, administrative arrangements, and the level and quality of the service?
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY: Mr President, Hospital Authority patients are the main users of the non-emergency ambulance service currently provided by the Fire Services Department. They constitute about 90% of non-emergency calls. As I said in my reply to a question on this subject in this Council on 24 February this year, the Fire Services Department will gradually withdraw from the provision of a non-emergency ambulance service. This will enable the Department to make better use of its resources and to focus on its primary role as the provider of emergency services.
Under the proposed new arrangement, the Hospital Authority has agreed to contract out this service for its patients in stages, starting with Hong Kong Island on 1 October this year, Kowloon on 1 January 1994 and finally the New Territories on 1 April 1995.
The remaining 10% of non-emergency ambulance calls are for patients referred by the Department of Health and the Social Welfare Department for transfer to clinics or hospitals. The Fire Services Department will continue to
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 2 June 1993 3876 provide this service until a suitable organization has been identified to take it over.
With the implementation of the new arrangement, financial provision to the Fire Services Department will be reduced in stages to enable it to continue to maintain its existing level of emergency services and the remaining non-emergency ambulance service. Sufficient resources will, at the same time, be made available to the Hospital Authority to enable it to take up the non-emergency service in stages. Since a non-emergency ambulance service does not require the highly trained staff, the specialized vehicles and the sophisticated equipment currently provided in Fire Services Department ambulances, the new arrangement will eventually result in some cost savings. It is proposed to use part of these savings to expand the paramedical services of the Fire Services Department to upgrade the standard of on-the-spot care provided for patients in emergencies.
The Hospital Authority will make its own arrangement to receive, and to respond to, non-emergency calls from its patients. The Communication and Control Centre of the Fire Services Department will maintain its command and control of ambulances for emergency calls and for the remaining 10% of non-emergency calls.
DR LEONG CHE-HUNG: Mr President, is the Administration aware of the fact that the Hospital Authority intends to cater only for non-emergency calls authorized by the Hospital Authority's staff only? And is the Administration aware of the fact that a fair percentage of the so-called non-emergency calls, on a day to day basis, are made by the private sector or by patients themselves? Could the Administration therefore inform this Council how these non-emergency calls will be catered for and can the Administration assure this Council that non-emergency ambulance services will be available to all, irrespective of being authorized by the Hospital Authority or otherwise?
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY: Mr President, as I said in my main answer, I believe that Hospital Authority cases account for 90% of non-emergency cases. This was the conclusion of a survey which was conducted earlier this year. The remaining 10% of non-emergency calls contain a number of different cases, some initiated by the Social Welfare Department, some initiated by the Department of Health and some initiated by private hospitals and some direct from members of the public, but in total these only amount to 10%. And as I said in my main answer, the Fire Services Department will continue to provide a non emergency service for all these 10% of cases until we are able to identify some other suitable way of meeting the demand.
MR STEVEN POON (in Cantonese): Mr President, the services of the Fire Services Department always give one the impression that they are "fast and
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 2 June 1993 3877
efficient". Now that the ambulance service is to be taken over by the Hospital Authority and will be contracted out to some unknown parties, will this make one feel that efficiency and speed will suffer? Will this new arrangement be subject to the monitoring of the Administration so as to ensure that the standard of service provided for patients will not be lowered?
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY: Mr President, I certainly hope and believe that the efficiency of the service will not suffer. Indeed, I would think that it should be possible to improve the service. Inevitably, at the moment, non-emergency calls have to take second place to the emergency calls of the Fire Services Department, and this often means that people waiting for a non-emergency transfer by ambulance have to wait for quite some time. A dedicated service operated by the Hospital Authority should be, I believe, at least as efficient and provide at least as good a service to the public. But that is something that we will of course monitor.
MR TIK CHI-YUEN (in Cantonese): Mr President, may I ask the Secretary whether the takeover of the non-emergency ambulance service of the Fire Services Department by the Hospital Authority is an ad hoc measure or a long-term one? If it is an experimental one, will the Fire Services Department resume the role it plays if difficulties are encountered?
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY: Mr President, this is intended to be a permanent transfer, in stages, of the great majority of the non-emergency service to the Hospital Authority. As I have said though, we still have not found a suitable alternative to the Fire Services Department for the remaining 10% of cases which are not Hospital Authority cases. But we are continuing to consider how we will meet that in future.
MR TAM YIU-CHUNG (in Cantonese): Mr President, will fees be charged for the non emergency ambulance service provided by the Hospital Authority; and how many vehicles and how much manpower are involved when the new service, starting with Hong Kong Island, is in operation on 1 October 1993?
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY: Mr President, I think that these matters are somewhat outside my purview. I will have to either give a written answer to those or ask the Secretary for Health and Welfare to give a written answer.
MR FRED LI (in Cantonese): Mr President, are there measures in hand to relieve the ambulance staff of the Fire Services Department from the anxieties of job transfer because under this new arrangement, they may be required to transfer to other posts?
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 2 June 1993 3878
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY: Mr President, it is not envisaged that any staff of the Fire Services Department will be made redundant or will be transferred to the Hospital Authority. The phasing of the takeover for the next two years will enable normal wastage through retirement, resignation and so on to take care of the necessary vacancies, and recruitment will be adjusted accordingly. We do not think that there will be any redundancies.
DR PHILIP WONG: Mr President, can the Secretary please tell us what the definition of a non-emergency versus an emergency service is?
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY: Mr President, yes. Emergency services are normally provided in response to "999" calls. They cover all cases where a person requires immediate transfer to a hospital for urgent treatment or investigation and they also cover the transfer of patients who are CASEVACED or MEDIVACED out by helicopter or launch from offshore clinics.
Non-emergency services, on the other hand, cater mainly for patients who have difficulty in using public transport to travel between home and hospital or between different hospitals for treatment but where the treatment required is not of an emergency or acute nature.
MR MICHAEL HO (in Cantonese): Mr President; will the Administration inform this Council of the way in which the manpower, vehicles and funds required for the takeover of the ambulance service by the Hospital Authority have been calculated? Moreover, after the takeover, in the light of the resources available, does it mean that service will only be maintained at the present level, that is, requiring a waiting time of three to five hours?
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY: Mr President, yes, to the last question. The way in which the resources which will be allocated to the Hospital Authority have been calculated is to enable them to maintain the present level of service but not necessarily with the same sophisticated vehicles, equipment or the same highly trained staff because those are not necessary for non-emergency services. Therefore, as I said in my main answer, I expect that in the end, when the whole service is transferred, there will be some residual savings.
Provision of medical clinics in housing estates
4. DR CONRAD LAM asked (in Cantonese): Will the Government inform this Council whether it is aware of any comments recently made by the public relating to the weaknesses of the existing policy of the Housing Authority on the provision, letting, control and reprovisioning of medical clinics? And if so,
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 2 June 1993 3879
what the comments are and whether the Government is aware of the action, if any, taken by the Housing Authority in response to such comments?
SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS: Mr President, the Housing Department has reviewed both representations made direct to the Housing Authority and media coverage on the subject over the past six months. One short report and commentary on the allocation of estate clinics and reviewing the system in one Chinese newspaper has come to light.
Despite the lack of much public comment on the subject, the Housing Authority keeps the policy on the provision, letting, control and reprovisioning of medical clinics in public housing estates under regular review. The most recent review was conducted in late 1992. As a result, on the recommendation of the ICAC, the Authority decided to continue to allocate new and vacant premises by balloting through the Estate Doctors Association, subject to improvements to the balloting system and stricter tenancy control over the operation of the clinics. The institution of these improvements seems to have attracted very little feedback so far.
DR CONRAD LAM (in Cantonese): Mr President, I refer to the complaints I received recently that though the number of doctors in Hong Kong is increasing, the ratio of clinics to population in public housing estates is decreasing, from 1:6 000 in 1967 to between 1:7 500 and 1:10 000 at present. Could the Administration inform this Council why the Housing Authority does not look at the market supply and demand and amend its policy which in the eyes of the public only facilitates the operation of the Housing Department but is unreasonable in itself?
SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS: Mr President, as I said in my main answer, the question of provision of clinics has been the subject of review by the Housing Authority. The current system was introduced in 1967, it was reviewed in 1981, it was reviewed again in 1991 and, as I have already mentioned, there was a further review last year. The original ratio was one clinic to 6 000 people. This has been adjusted since 1981 to a ratio of one clinic to between 7 500 and 10 000 people, and the means of providing premises for doctors is through a balloting system among members of the Estate Doctors Association. The question of market demand has been considered and, I believe, rejected by the Housing Authority and the Estate Doctors Association because of a fear that it would result in increasing costs of medical services to residents of estates.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 2 June 1993 3880
DR LAM KUI-CHUN (in Cantonese): Mr President, in the second paragraph of his reply the Secretary mentioned that the ICAC had made recommendations. Could the Administration inform this Council of the reasons the ICAC made recommendations?
SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS: Mr President, I believe that the ICAC, as a matter of performance of its normal functions, is involved in the making of arrangements of this kind with many government departments, including the Housing Authority and Housing Department. If my memory serves me correctly, glancing as I am at these notes, there was a requirement introduced as a result of ICAC recommendation that in order to ensure that doctors of the Association seeking to take up premises were actually intending to do so, they should, if they were making a tender or being balloted, put down a deposit of, I believe, one month's rent to establish a bona fide interest in that particular exercise.
MR TIK CHI-YUEN (in Cantonese): Mr President, in a public housing estate in Tai Po, it was originally planned that it would be served by three clinics. However, after a lapse of one year, it was found that two of them were not operational yet. Does the Administration consider it necessary to improve the existing allocation system by speeding up its allocation process so that the service needed will be provided as soon as possible?
SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS: Mr President, it will not surprise Members that I am not aware of that particular case. But I shall certainly bring it to the attention of the Housing Authority to see what their reaction to this report is.
DR LEONG CHE-HUNG: Mr President, I am still a bit confused about the Secretary's reply that whilst the number of doctors in Hong Kong is increasing, yet the ratio of population to doctors in the housing estates is increasing. In other words, a doctor is being asked to look after more people in the housing estate. Why is this policy being implemented and are there any plans for the Housing Authority to increase clinics or doctors in the housing estates so that more patients can benefit?
SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS: Mr President, as I understand it, the system that operates is that members of the Estate Doctors Association are able to ballot for available clinic premises in the estates. I also understand that the Estate Doctors Association is such that anybody can join. If, on the basis of the membership of the Estate Doctors Association, there was clearly a greater interest in balloting for clinic sites in housing estates, then I am sure that the Housing Authority would take that fact
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 2 June 1993 3881
into account in one of its regular reviews of this system. Apparently, this was not a factor in the review conducted late in 1992.
DR LEONG CHE-HUNG: Mr President, I do not think the Secretary has answered my question which is: Is it not the Government's policy that it would be better for a doctor looking after less population than an increasing number of population, since there are actually more doctors now in Hong Kong?
SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS: I would not disagree, Mr President, with that statement. But I think the question of the provision of services in housing estates of various kinds, including the provision of clinics, is a matter which the Housing Authority has as one of its concerns and which it reviews regularly. And I think that since the Housing Authority has conducted a review within the last six months or so, there is no doubt in my mind that the Housing Authority would have considered the factors involved in the provision of this service very thoroughly. But I think, as a result of this afternoon's question, it is possible that the Housing Authority will consider it appropriate to carry out a further review.
DR CONRAD LAM (in Cantonese): Mr President, I cannot understand the point made by the Secretary in response to my supplementary question. He said that according to market supply and demand, that would result in increasing costs of medical services to the residents. As far as I know, many doctors have the intention of running clinics in public housing estates, but such premises are not made available to them. If there are more clinics, there will be healthy competition. Residents should pay less as a result and will the Secretary enlighten me as to why they have to pay more?
SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS: Mr President, I think the question of the provision of clinics in housing estates is one which the Housing Authority has very much under regular review. I believe that if there are questions of economics, supply and demand, higher or lower fees to be considered, then the Housing Authority is the authority that should consider them, and I propose to invite the Housing Authority to give this matter further consideration.
Fire prevention in industrial buildings
5. MR CHEUNG MAN-KWONG asked (in Cantonese): In view of the recent fire in a toy factory in Thailand which resulted in heavy casualties and property losses, will the Government inform this Council:
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 2 June 1993 3882
(a) what fire prevention measures are adopted in industrial buildings in Hong Kong, and whether there are regular fire drills; and
(b) whether from the information available, the Administration has learnt any, and if so, what lessons from this incident to avoid similar tragedies happening in Hong Kong?
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY: Mr President, industrial buildings, like all other buildings in Hong Kong, must comply with structural and fire safety requirements, imposed under the Buildings Ordinance, before the issue of an occupation permit. To ensure that fire service installations and equipment are maintained in good working order after occupation, owners of buildings are required under the Fire Services (Installations and Equipment) Regulations to maintain the installations, and to employ registered contractors to inspect and certify them annually. Regular inspections are carried out by the Fire Services Department to ensure that this is done.
Fire safety within factory premises is the responsibility of the Labour Department. There are regulations under the Factories and Industrial Undertakings Ordinance setting out detailed requirements to ensure fire safety in factories. Regular inspections are carried out by the Labour Department to ensure compliance with these and other industrial safety requirements.
Fire drills are carried out in factory buildings, encouraged and assisted by the Labour Department and the Fire Services Department. The Fire Services Department has also been organizing regular lectures on fire prevention and protection measures as part of its fire prevention campaign for industrial workers.
As regards the toy factory fire in Bangkok on 11 May, the Thai authorities are still conducting their investigation into this tragedy. The Fire Services Department has requested a copy of their investigation findings once completed. Initial reports indicate that three factors may have contributed to the fatalities caused by the fire. First, exits in the factory were locked at the time of the fire; second, the fire alarm system in the building was defective; and third, the factory building was structurally weak and collapsed shortly after the fire broke out.
Given our safety requirements for industrial buildings, and enforcement of safety standards through regular inspections, it is highly unlikely that a similar situation could arise in Hong Kong. The Labour Department already takes action to inspect factories, concentrating on fire exits, passage-ways and fire safety installations. The Fire Services Department is continuing its inspections in industrial buildings to ensure that common corridors and exits are not blocked, and to remind factory owners to observe the necessary precautions in the use of inflammable substances.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 2 June 1993 3883
MR CHEUNG MAN-KWONG (in Cantonese): Mr President, given that many foreign companies have their factories in Hong Kong and very often the persons responsible are foreign nationals who may even be residing abroad, will the Administration inform this Council, in the event of disasters like fires in these foreign-owned factories here where human error is to blame, then who should be held responsible, especially when there is no extradition agreement between Hong Kong and the foreign country concerned? Does the factory operator of foreign concern have any legal or criminal responsibility in such circumstances and if so, to what extent?
PRESIDENT: How does that seek to elucidate the main answer, Mr CHEUNG? MR CHEUNG MAN-KWONG (in Cantonese): Mr President, yes, it does. PRESIDENT: Explain how it seeks to elucidate the main answer, Mr CHEUNG.
MR CHEUNG MAN-KWONG (in Cantonese): Mr President, it does seek to elucidate. My question is: What lessons did the Government learn from the toy factory fire in Thailand? In law, there is no extradition arrangement between the Hong Kong and Thai Governments, so even if the Thai Government wants to take action against or ascertain the liability of the factory operator concerned, it may not be able to do so. Likewise, if accidents do occur in foreign-owned factories here and even if the Hong Kong Government asks them to come here for investigation or legal proceedings, they are not obliged to come and so can evade legal responsibility. Thus we should learn a lesson from this. May I ask how the Government is going to plug this loophole?
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY: Mr President, I am not aware that there is a loophole in the law in Hong Kong. I believe that the factory operator would be responsible, but perhaps this is a matter on which I would have to take further legal advice.
PRESIDENT: Will you provide a written answer?
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY: Sorry, yes, Mr President. (Annex II)
MR MOSES CHENG: Mr President, in the fifth paragraph of the answer, the Secretary seems to be suggesting disparity between the safety standards applicable in Thailand and those applicable here in Hong Kong. If so, what are
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 2 June 1993 3884
these differences that lead to the Secretary's conclusion that it is highly unlikely that a similar situation could arise in Hong Kong?
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY: Mr President, fire safety and building requirements are very stringent. We have a very good system of inspection to ensure that all the requirements are adhered to and our fire safety record in general terms is extremely good. Hong Kong compares very favourably with other comparable high rise cities both in terms of fires per population and in terms of casualties. For example, we have far fewer fires or deaths or casualties from fires than London, New York or Tokyo.
MR MOSES CHENG: Mr President, with respect, I do not think that the Secretary is answering my question. I was asking whether he is suggesting that there is disparity between the safety requirements in Thailand and those in Hong Kong. If there is none, then he can simply tell me that there is none.
PRESIDENT: You see, Mr CHENG, the question has got to be directed to a public matter for which this Administration is responsible. I do not think you can really ask the Secretary to comment on standards out of Hong Kong.
MR MOSES CHENG: No, Mr President, I was not asking for comment. I was asking for comparison because in the fifth paragraph of the answer the Secretary seems to be suggesting that there are differences between the two sets of standards, one applicable to Thailand and the other applicable to Hong Kong. I was seeking elucidation on whether there are differences between the two sets of standards, as that would seem to have been suggested in the fifth paragraph of the answer.
PRESIDENT: I think the Secretary has sufficiently answered within Standing Orders, Mr CHENG.
MR TAM YIU-CHUNG (in Cantonese): Mr President, has the Secretary left out one factor in his answer, that is with the operations of many factories moving away from Hong Kong in the past ten years, in particular that of the toy industry, the use of many of these industrial buildings has in fact been changed and in such situations the risk of fires has substantially been reduced?
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY: Mr President, it is true that the use of industrial buildings in Hong Kong is gradually changing, and certainly I think that we see less intensive use of industrial buildings and therefore less blocking of the corridors and exits and common parts of a building with storage of
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 2 June 1993 3885
industrial goods. That still does occur; it is still something which both the Fire Services Department and the Labour Department do have to inspect in order to prevent and do have to prosecute for. But in general terms I think the less intensive use of industrial buildings is also a factor which points to less breaches being committed these days of the regulations.
MR ALBERT CHAN (in Cantonese): Mr President, this is a follow-up to Mr CHEUNG Man-kwong's question. We have similar questions in mind and I hope Mr President would allow me to ask it. It is mentioned in the fourth paragraph of the Secretary's reply that the Thai authorities are still conducting their investigation into the incident. However, it is learnt that the factory where the fire broke out concerns some factory operators and businessmen in Hong Kong. Will the Administration inform this Council whether the Hong Kong Government will assist the Thai authorities in their investigation and how?
PRESIDENT: I think you will have to try to show a link as Mr CHEUNG did between the original answer and your supplementary because I do not think I see it at the moment, Mr CHAN.
MR ALBERT CHAN (in Cantonese): Mr President, in the fourth paragraph of his reply, the Secretary has mentioned that the Thai authorities are still conducting their investigation into the incident. But they may not able to complete their investigation, possibly due to the fact that some people concerned are not in Thailand but in Hong Kong. If the Government is to learn from the incident, it should offer assistance so that investigation can be completed, and Hong Kong will benefit from it. May I know whether the Hong Kong Government will and how it will assist the Thai Government in their investigation from which we can learn a good lesson?
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY: Mr President, the investigation of the fire is obviously a matter for the Thai authorities. We have not received any request for assistance from them. If they did make such a request then obviously we would consider it.
PRESIDENT: The next question may raise a potential conflict of interest with my being a director of the Hong Kong Bank. I shall step down and ask Mrs TU to take the Chair for this question.
PRESIDENT'S DEPUTY, MRS ELSIE TU, took the chair.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 2 June 1993 3886 Bank handling charges on cash deposits
6. MR MAN SAI-CHEONG asked (in Cantonese): There is public concern over the imposition of handling charges by banks at present on cash deposits exceeding a specified amount as undue inconvenience has been caused to members of the public who, being reluctant to pay such unreasonable charges, have to go to several banks to place cash deposits within the specified amount. Will the Government inform this Council:
(a) whether it is aware of the rationale behind the banks' move to collect handling charges from their customers; and
(b) whether it will consider urging the banks to withdraw this measure so as to protect the consumer rights of depositors?
SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES: Madam deputy,
(a) The Administration is aware that consumer concerns have been expressed about the practice of some banks imposing handling charges in certain circumstances on cash deposits exceeding specified amounts. The Administration is also aware that the subject has been discussed between the Consumer Council and the Hong Kong Association of Banks.
We understand that the reason for the charges is to recover the administrative costs involved in handling large amounts of bank notes, which may involve no corresponding generation of income. In practice, however, it appears that typically only a very small proportion of total cash deposits attract any charges.
(b) The Administration considers it should, wherever possible, avoid interference with commercial decisions which generally are best left to the market. Charges for services rendered are commercial decisions and banks in Hong Kong are free to set their own scale of charges to meet their own requirements. Consumers are equally free to choose their own banks. Consumer rights are a matter best left to the Consumer Council to pursue.
MR MAN SAI-CHEONG (in Cantonese): Madam deputy, in his reply the Secretary says that consumers are free to choose their own banks. However some banks have time and again lowered the specified amounts of cash deposits on which handling charges are imposed, and in this way more and more depositors are affected. As banks are getting meaner and meaner in the terms they set for charged services, these have a wide impact on bank depositors. For example in some banks, a charge is levied on any deposit of $10,000 or more made within the same day, which means that even the money deposited by
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 2 June 1993 3887
housewives at the beginning of a month cannot be exempted from charges. Will the Administration take any positive measures, like issuing directives to banks or seeking co operation between the Hong Kong Association of Banks and the Consumer Council in order to rectify such unfair situations?
SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES: Madam deputy, the first point is that I think it should be borne in mind that the proportion, as I have mentioned in my main answer, of all cash deposits that attract these charges is very low indeed. It is less than 1% and there is in fact a more than adequate comparative basis among the banks for competition. There are 167 banks in Hong Kong, 40 of which have retail outlets. There is no uniformity of practice between them with regard to these charges and therefore there is scope for consumer choice. Nor is there any guidance from the Hong Kong Association of Banks as to the practice that banks should follow in this respect. So the market forces are in fact able to operate freely with regard to these charges.
MR ROGER LUK: Madam deputy, before I ask the question I also have to declare an interest as a senior executive of Hang Seng Bank. Is the Administration aware that special arrangements and exemptions are already offered by banks to customers who have to make substantial cash deposits regularly by virtue of the nature of their business?
SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES: Madam deputy, the Administration takes the view that the reasons for these charges are in fact purely commercial and it is up to the banks to decide whether they wish to levy them in respect of the customers whose activities give rise to the charges, or whether to spread them across the generality of their customers. I say that because the consumer interests in this respect are not just the interests of those who are actually making the deposits. They are in fact in conflict with the general interests of all the customers of the bank. If the banks were to withdraw these charges and to in effect absorb them, then the effect of that would be to pass them on to all their other customers. The question then arises as to whether those other customers should really be subsidizing the activities of a relatively small number of large cash depositors.
MR MARVIN CHEUNG: Madam deputy, can the Administration please advise whether one reason for these charges is the losses which banks will have to incur when they redeposit the funds with other banks because of the arrangements under the exchange peg policy, and if so, whether the Government would investigate how these losses suffered by the banks might be avoided so that they would not need to pass these charges on to customers?
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 2 June 1993 3888
SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES: Madam deputy, the main question concerns handling charges, not charges imposed for other reasons. It is true, though, that this particular subject has been raised by the Consumer Council with the Hong Kong Association of Banks. But I would draw attention to the fact that the proportion of cash deposits attracting these charges is extremely low and that is not consistent with a more generalized rationale for these charges. Moreover, that explanation has not found a place among the reasons advanced by the Hong Kong Association of Banks for imposing the charges. Those reasons were the additional administrative costs involved in handling large amounts of cash, including such matters as security, storage, insurance, transportation and particularly teller time. Secondly, some bank branches are being used as temporary convenience by some customers who take advantage of the convenient location of a particular branch to make regular cash deposits during the course of the day of quite large sums and then before the end of the day transfer those sums out by cashier's order to another bank and that means in effect that the banks which are going to the expense and the trouble of receiving the notes are not actually having any revenue generating opportunity from the resulting deposits. It is quite understandable in those circumstances that they would wish to charge a fee. Finally, there is also the practice of some customers making frequent cash deposits without their passbook and that also adds to the cost of processing of transactions. Those were the reasons that have been advanced by the Hong Kong Association of Banks; they did not include the reasons stated by Mr Marvin CHEUNG.
REV FUNG CHI-WOOD (in Cantonese): Madam deputy, besides customers who make cash deposits exceeding certain amounts, those who deposit notes of small denomination are also subject to charges. Can the Administration advise whether such practice is reasonable? The Secretary said that the matter should be left to the Consumer Council to pursue, but the Consumer Council does not have the authority to monitor such practices. Has the Secretary discussed with the Hong Kong Association of Banks on this particular issue?
SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES: On the first point, Madam deputy, I would think it unlikely that banks that are conscious of their relationship with their customers and the competitive dangers of the erosion of their customer base would wish to expose themselves to problems of losing customers by charging excessively on very low sums. And certainly that has not been mentioned in the dialogue between the Administration and the Hong Kong Association of Banks. When it came up between the Consumer Council and the Hong Kong Association of Banks the Association expressed some considerable surprise about it. So I think it is far from clear that that is an actual practice that is going on and in any case it is one that would be controlled by the competitive forces of the market.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 2 June 1993 3889
As regards the Consumer Council and whether or not it has teeth, the Council nevertheless has a very valuable role to play in this context. It can by working with the Hong Kong Association of Banks improve the transparency of banks with regard to their charging practices so that customers will be aware of the charges before they actually incur them. It has a very powerful tool at its disposal in terms of exposure and publicity and the importance of information as a catalyst to change should not be underestimated. Also it would be entirely appropriate for the Consumer Council, if it wished to do so, to compile and disseminate to consumers comparative information about charging policies and other fees and charges that are imposed by banks so that they can make an informed choice between the banks. That in itself would help the operation of the market.
MR RONALD ARCULLI: Madam deputy, the linked exchange rate sets the Hong Kong dollar at $7.80 to one US dollar. If a bank gets US dollar back from the Exchange Fund, it can only sell it in the market at HK$7.73 or thereabouts. Is the Secretary saying that the difference of $0.07 plays no part at all, whatsoever, in the "handling charges" — and I use those words in inverted commas — charged by the banks?
SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES: Madam deputy, I did not actually say that. What I said was that it was not among the reasons which have been advanced, and of which the Administration is aware, for the imposition of handling charges. And handling charges, as the Administration understands it, are for just that — handling and recovering the administrative costs that arise in that connection.
MS ANNA WU: Madam deputy, with regard to the cost of receiving cash deposits that the banks claim they have incurred, has the Secretary studied the other side of the coin and that is whether the benefit arising from the use of the money by the bank is accounted for in favour of the consumer?
SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES: Madam deputy, among the reasons I cited which have been given by the Hong Kong Association of Banks for these charges, the main one in fact is the deposit of notes without there being a revenue generating opportunity for the banks. That is their real concern and that is why only a very small proportion of these charges are actually levied and they are levied selectively to try to discourage the type of activity I described where cash deposits are made during the course of the day and are subsequently transferred out by cashier's order before the close of the day so that the bank has no opportunity to generate any revenue from that deposit or benefit in any other way. The bank in fact in those circumstances is merely expending its resources on handling the notes and finding its teller queues being extended and
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 2 June 1993 3890
other considerable inconvenience arising. so I think if that is the main point, then the other side of that coin does not arise.
MS ANNA WU: Madam deputy, may I ask for clarification?
PRESIDENT'S DEPUTY: Yes, Ms WU.
MS ANNA WU: Has the Secretary verified that that is the only category in respect of which a surcharge is made?
PRESIDENT'S DEPUTY: Secretary, can you answer that question?
SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES: Madam deputy, I can only give you the three points which were raised by the Hong Kong Association of Banks. The first relates to escalating costs associated with security, premises, insurance, transportation and teller time; those are the administrative costs. The second relates to the abuse of convenience point which is the one I have just elaborated. The third point is the depositing of sums without the passbook. Now the point here is that the passbook is the basic control system, and if depositors appear without it then it does require the banks to go through one or two additional checks that they would not otherwise have to do. So that charge actually serves two purposes: it encourages customers to use their passbooks and it also covers the additional cost of customers not coming with them. Those are the reasons that have been advanced to us. The main question asked whether we are aware of the rationale and that is the answer.
THE PRESIDENT resumed the Chair.
Written answers to questions
Concrete with PFA
7. DR SAMUEL WONG asked: The Tate's Cairn Tunnel, which was opened less than two years ago, used some 300 000m3 concrete containing Pulverized Fuel Ash (PFA) in the construction work. Will the Government inform this Council.
(a) whether there are other large projects, public or private, in which concrete with PFA content is used; and
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 2 June 1993 3891
(b) what percentage of the total PFA generated by the two power companies last year was not used in concrete work or recycled applications, thus ending in the lagoons?
SECRETARY FOR WORKS: Mr President,
(a) Yes, there are other large projects in which concrete with PFA is used. The use of PFA in construction works is increasing, with recent examples being:
- Eastern Harbour Crossing (350 000m3 PFA concrete and 150 000 tonnes PFA reclamation fill)
- Route 5 tunnel (200 000m3 PFA concrete)
- Tsim Sha Tsui Culture Centre (50 000m3 PFA concrete)
PFA concrete is also used in major airport projects including the Tsing Ma Bridge and all pavements constructed by Highways Department.
Works Branch together with Civil Engineering Department (from 1992 onwards) have been actively encouraging the use of PFA concrete for government works as well as seeking ways to promote suitable usage by the private sector. Testing the performance of Hong Kong PFA concrete is yielding results which show that the important characteristics are the same as have been found by testing PFA concrete overseas. Housing Department likewise have included PFA concrete in their specification for sub-structural works.
(b) Some 37% of the PFA generated by China Light and Power Company in 1992 was pumped into the Tsang Tsui Lagoon. Another 18% was transported to PRC for use as fill. The remaining 45% was used in concrete works or recycling applications.
As regards Hong Kong Electric Company, 5% of the PFA generated in 1992 was used in concrete works. The remaining 95% was transported to PRC for use as fill.
Liquefied natural gas
8. MR STEVEN POON asked (in Chinese): As the use of natural gas causes less environmental hazards than other kinds of fuel commonly in use, will the Government inform this Council:
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 2 June 1993 3892
(a) whether a feasibility study has been conducted on the use of liquefied natural gas in the territory; if so, whether the findings of such a study can be released;
(b) whether consideration will be given to promoting the use of natural gas in Hong Kong; whether the Government has received proposals on the use of liquefied natural gas; if so, what the details of these proposals are; and
(c) whether there are suitable sites that can be allocated for the construction of a terminal to be used by liquefied natural gas carriers and for the installation of relevant facilities?
SECRETARY FOR ECONOMIC SERVICES: Mr President, there has been no overall study conducted into the use of liquefied natural gas (LNG) in Hong Kong. However, in 1990, the Government commissioned consultants to advise on the implications of using LNG instead of coal to fuel the planned Black Point Power Station. This study indicated that the use of LNG would bring certain environmental benefits in terms of lower emissions of air pollutants and production of other waste products, but that consumers would face higher tariffs in the long term than if coal were used.
In the event, the option of using LNG was not pursued because the developers of the station: the China Light and Power Company and Exxon Energy were able to purchase a supply of piped natural gas from a field in the South China Sea off Hainan Island. Before entering into the purchase agreement, the companies were required to satisfy the Government that there would be adequate security of supply and that consumers would not be faced with higher tariffs than would be the case under alternative fuel options.
No other specific proposals for the importation of natural gas, either in piped or liquefied form, have been received by the Government. The Government will consider all proposals positively, on a case by case basis, in the light of the relevant economic, environmental and security of supply implications.
In the meantime, a recent study commissioned by a group of companies in the energy field has indicated that the construction of a terminal for the importation of LNG is technically feasible. A number of possible sites for such a terminal have also been identified. The findings of this study are now being examined within the Administration.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 2 June 1993 3893 Leave allowance for BDTC naturalization
9. MISS EMILY LAU asked (in Chinese): The British Nationality Act 1981 requires, inter alia, that an applicant who wishes to become a British Dependent Territories citizen by naturalization must not be outside Hong Kong for more than 450 days in the five-year period preceding the date on which his application is received in the Immigration Department. With increasing economic activities across the border in recent years, many local residents have to leave the territory on a regular basis to work or make investments in Mainland China, thus encountering difficulties in fulfilling the 450-days requirement. Will the Government consider requesting the British Government to relax its restriction on the applicants' absence from the territory in response to the needs of our society?
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY: Mr President, the 450 days absence limit is waivable if there are special circumstances. The Director of Immigration is authorized to exercise this function.
An applicant who has been away from Hong Kong for more than 450 days in the previous five years, or for more than 90 days in the 12 months preceding the application, may make a written request to the Director of Immigration for the requirement to be waived, stating the special circumstances of his case. Information on the way to make this request is provided in the naturalization application guide book, which is distributed together with the application form to applicants.
In the past three years, 628 requests to waive the residence requirement have been received; over 99% of these requests were granted.
Refuse landfills
10. REV FUNG CHI-WOOD asked (in Chinese): Will the Government inform this Council:
(a) of the total number of refuse landfills throughout the Territory to date;
(b) of the number and the location of the landfills already installed with facilities for the discharge of landfill gas;
(c) of the number and the location of the landfills without the installation of such facilities;
(d) whether facilities for the discharge of landfill gas will be installed at those landfills under item (c); if so, the time required and the completion dates for such installations; and
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 2 June 1993 3894
(e) whether the landfill gas generated at those landfills under item (c) will give rise to explosions; if so, under what circumstances such explosions will occur and what preventative measures have been taken by the Administration accordingly.
SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS: Mr President,
(a) There are 13 landfills throughout the Territory. Nine have been completed and four are in operation. All are identified on the attached map. The Table in the lower left-hand corner of the map shows the year of closure, surface area and estimated volume of the sites. (Three strategic landfills are also to be commissioned within the next few years.)
(b) One landfill, at Sai Tso Wan, has facilities to extract landfill gas and safely burn it.
(c) At the other sites, landfill gas is presently allowed to dissipate into the atmosphere. (This will not apply to the three new strategic landfills which will be provided with gas control and collection and disposal systems to the latest international standards.)
(d) The completed and operating landfills have all been investigated to provide the data needed for planning their proper restoration, which will allow the land to be put to use again. During these investigations it has become clear that, while none of the situations is hazardous, gas control systems can usefully be installed at some sites before full-scale restoration works are undertaken. During the next few months, gas control works will commence at Jordan Valley, Shuen Wan and Gin Drinkers Bay (Kwai Chung Park) landfills at a cost of around $20 million. This will ensure that the areas around these landfills are safe from gas hazards. The programme of the full scale restoration works depends upon the availability of funds and the time taken for each landfill to be completed. Nevertheless, all the existing landfills should be completed and restored within the next four years.
(e) Under certain circumstances, a mixture of landfill gas and oxygen can ignite. However, engineering measures, such as venting and flaring, either already taken or under consideration, should prevent these circumstances from arising. At all sites, regular gas monitoring is undertaken to ensure public safety. To date, there is no cause for concern.
2 June 1993 HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL —
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 2 June 1993 3896 Fluctuation of stock and futures markets
11. DR HUANG CHEN-YA asked: On a number of recent occasions, the stock market and futures market registered record gains and losses, usually shortly before some announcements on constitutional reform were made. In particular, the Hang Seng Index rose sharply on 13 April 1993, soon before the announcement of the Sino-British talks on arrangements for the 1994-95 elections. Will the Government inform this Council whether this phenomenon has been investigated and whether the investigation has revealed any indication of insider trading on that day or on other recent occasions?
SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES: Mr President, under the provisions of the Securities (Insider Dealing) Ordinance 1990, the prohibitions relating to insider dealing apply to securities only and cover only relevant non-public information which is price sensitive to a particular issuing company, but not information which is price sensitive across the entire market. Therefore the situation alluded to in the question, that is, the release of information relating to external political matters such as the Sino-British talks, does not come within the scope of "insider dealing" as contemplated under the Ordinance.
Monitoring of the operation of the market is the responsibility of the Securities and Futures Commission (the Commission). The Commission routinely monitors market activity, and where anomalies or other unusual market phenomena occur, more detailed examination will be conducted.
Characteristically, the volatility of the Hong Kong market is often affected by external forces and a 100-plus point move is not an unusual occurrence. The Commission has not detected any improper behaviour in connection with recent market movements on which it could take action under the Ordinance. Nevertheless, it will continue to monitor and take action as and when necessary.
Transport concessions for the disabled and elderly
12. MR ERIC LI asked (in Chinese): As regards the transport concessions for the disabled and the elderly put forward by the Financial Secretary in his 1993-94 Budget, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) when the above concessions will be implemented; and
(b) what the implementation details are?
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 2 June 1993 3897 SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT: Mr President,
Transport concessions for the disabled
The concessions for disabled drivers announced in the 1993 Budget were implemented on 1 April 1993. This involved the extension of concessions already granted to disabled owners of private cars to such owners of motor cycles and motor tricycles, namely exemption from first registration tax, learner driving licence fees, fees for driving test forms, annual vehicle licence fees, transfer of vehicle ownership fees, Cross-Harbour Tunnel passage tax, parking meter fees and, subject to a pre-determined limit, duty on hydrocarbon oil.
From the same date, disabled drivers of private cars, motor cycles and motor tricycles were exempted from the need to pay tolls when using government tunnels.
Concessionary public transport fares for the elderly
The exemptions from government licence fees and rental payments announced by the Financial Secretary in his Budget speech, were to enable franchised public transport operators to introduce concessionary fare schemes for the elderly or, where such schemes already exist, to improve on them. Using these exemptions:
(a) the Kowloon Motor Bus Company Limited has since 5 April 1993 introduced a full-day half fare scheme for persons aged 65 and over. The scheme covers all routes except those to and from the airport; and
(b) starting on 6 June 1993, the China Motor Bus Company Limited will introduce an off-peak half fare scheme for persons aged 65 and over. The scheme will operate from 10 am on weekdays and all day on Sundays and Public Holidays. It will cover all routes except those using the cross harbour tunnels and Island Eastern Corridor, and air-conditioned services.
Discussions are being held with other franchised public transport operators on the manner in which their existing concessionary fare schemes and services to the elderly can be upgraded with government assistance. The present situation is as follows:
(a) the Star Ferry Company Limited already offers free travel to persons aged 65 or over and is now exploring how to further improve facilities for the elderly;
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 2 June 1993 3898
(b) the Hong Kong and Yaumatei Ferry Company Limited operates a half fare scheme for persons aged 65 and over during off-peak hours from Monday to Friday, if they use ordinary class and non-hoverferry services. The company is considering extending the concession throughout the day;
(c) the New Lantao Bus Company Limited has a half fare scheme for persons aged 65 and over, from Monday to Friday, if they use non air-conditioned services. The Company is considering extending the scheme to include Saturdays; and
(d) the Citybus Company Limited is committed to introducing a half fare off peak scheme for persons aged 60 and over, when it takes over 26 routes from China Motor Bus Company Limited in September 1993. It is now considering extending the scheme throughout the day, with the exception of recreational routes.
Details of these improvements will be announced as soon as agreement is reached.
Guidelines have been made available to all eligible public transport operators on how to seek exemption from government licence fees and rental payments, in order to help finance concessionary fare schemes for the elderly.
Offence against the Defamation Ordinance
13. MR CHIM PUI-CHUNG asked (in Chinese): Will the Government inform this Council:
(a) of the number of complaints received by the Government regarding suspected commission of an offence under sections 5 and 6 of the Defamation Ordinance (that is, publishing libel known to be false and publishing defamatory libel) by the mass media over the past three years; the findings of investigations and what actions have been taken; and
(b) whether the Administration will institute criminal proceedings at the victims' instance for justifiable protection of human rights; if not, what the reasons are?
ATTORNEY GENERAL: Mr President,
(a) A search of the records of the Prosecutions Division of my Chambers for the past three years reveals that there have been no complaints in respect of, nor have any prosecutions been instituted
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 2 June 1993 3899
for, an offence or offences against section 5 or 6 of the Defamation Ordinance (Cap 21).
(b) It is not possible to institute criminal proceedings in order to protect human rights unless a criminal offence known to the law has been committed. Should a complaint be made in respect of such an offence it will be considered on the basis of the normal criteria, that is, whether the evidence is sufficient to support the criminal offence and whether merits of the case are such as to justify a prosecution.
Subsidized academic researches for tertiary institutions
14. MR CHEUNG MAN-KWONG asked (in Chinese): As regards the funding of the University and Polytechnic Grants Committee, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) of the funds available to the Committee for the years 1992-95, how much has been allocated to the seven tertiary institutions to finance their academic researches;
(b) of details of the amount granted to each institution for such academic researches;
(c) of the titles, purposes, amounts applied for and approved in respect of these subsidized research items, and their respective dates of application and approval; and
(d) whether the Committee has any mechanism to ensure the effective use of those grants, and that these researches will achieve the anticipated result and required quality, thus enhancing the academic status of the tertiary institutions?
SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER: Mr President,
(a) The level of funding for Earmarked Research Grants to the UPGC-funded institutions during the academic years 1992-93 to 1994-95, as approved by the Finance Committee, is as follows ($million):
1992-93 1993-94 1994-95 Total
122 156 144 422
In October 1992 the Governor announced, in his address at the opening of the Legislative Council, that the funds provided for 1993-94 and 1994-95 would be increased by over 20% in real
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 2 June 1993 3900
terms, with a sum of $180 million to be provided in 1994-95. Approval for the proposed increase to the level of funding for 1994-95 will be sought in the context of the draft Estimates for that year.
In addition, the UPGC-funded institutions are encouraged to spend at least 2% of their block grants for the provision of the necessary research infrastructure. This amounts to some $322 million during the 1992-95 triennium (see (b) below).
(b) The Research Grants Council (RGC) has decided on the disbursement of the Earmarked Research Grant to the UPGC-funded institutions for 1992-93, as follows:
($M)
HKU CUHK HKUST HKP CPHK HKBC LC Total 33.1 30.6 17.9 15.2 14.4 8.9 1.9 122.0
The allocation of the Earmarked Research Grants for 1993-94 and 1994-95 will be decided by the RGC at its meetings in June 1993 and June 1994.
The 2% of the institutions' block grants for research infrastructure represents some $322 million, distributed as follows:
($M)
HKU CUHK HKUST HKP CPHK HKBC LC Total
1992-93 25.4 23.4 12.1 20.9 14.9 6.0 2.2 105.0 1993-94 26.1 23.4 16.1 19.4 15.3 6.0 2.4 108.7 1994-95 26.2 23.0 18.9 17.4 14.9 5.9 2.4 108.7 Total 77.7 69.8 47.1 57.7 45.2 17.9 7.0 322.3
(c) Full details of the research projects approved for 1992-93 are contained in the RGC's Annual Report for 1992 which will be published shortly.
(d) The funds provided by the Government for Earmarked Research Grants administered by the UPGC are disbursed by the RGC. This Council, which was established in January 1991, comprises eminent local and overseas academics and prominent local business and professional people. In accordance with its terms of reference, the RGC invites and receives applications for research grants, approves awards and other disbursements and subsequently monitors the implementation of the grants. The grants are mainly awarded on the basis of competitive bidding through a process of peer review. Applications are assessed by the RGC through its three subject
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 2 June 1993 3901
panels with the assistance of an international network of academic expert referees. The Council monitors the implementation of the grants awarded by scrutinizing annual reports on the institutions' research activities, annual progress reports on each of the projects funded and the more detailed project completion reports, and by making periodic visits to the institutions.
Post-retirement employment of senior officers of the Marine Department
15. MR FREDERICK FUNG asked (in Chinese): Will the Government inform this Council of the number of civil servants, in the rank of Surveyor of Ships and above in the Marine Department, who retired in the last five years and were subsequently permitted to take up employment in the maritime business or shipping companies?
SECRETARY FOR THE CIVIL SERVICE: Mr President, since 1987, three Assistant Directors of Marine (one from the Surveyor of Ships grade and two from the Marine Officer grade) have been given permission to take up employment in the maritime business after their retirement. Two are self-employed.
When processing applications for post-retirement employment, the Government takes into account the advice of the Advisory Committee on Post-retirement Employment appointed by the Governor. The applicant's previous involvement in policy formulation is taken into account in considering whether this would benefit the prospective employer in an improper manner or enable the applicant to gain an unfair advantage over his competitors. Views are sought from the Head of Department on the question of conflict of interest. Consideration is also given to whether the proposed employment will result in the officer having an undesirable public profile. Conditions, such as a sanitization period or sanctions against dealing with specific companies, may be imposed as necessary. The provisions of the Official Secrets Acts continue to apply to an officer after his retirement.
Tap water quality
16. MR FRED LI asked (in Chinese): Since Laguna City in Kwun Tong was first occupied in 1991, some residents have been complaining to the Water Authority about impurities and peculiar smell in the tap water supply but so far no significant improvement has been made. Will the Government inform this Council:
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 2 June 1993 3902
(a) whether any investigation has been conducted in respect of the water quality; if so, what the findings are; if not, what the reasons are; and
(b) whether the authorities have adequate power to require the responsible organizations to solve the problem of impurities in tap water for protection of residents' health; if not, whether consideration will be given to introducing legislative control?
SECRETARY FOR WORKS: Mr President,
(a) Since September 1992, the Water Supplies Department has received complaints from the Management Office and some of the residents at Laguna City about small traces of suspended particles in the fresh water supply. The staff of this department have since then carried out a series of investigations inside Laguna City as well as on the government water supply system feeding Laguna City. The findings have confirmed that the problem is confined to the inside of Laguna City and the cause is due to some irregularity in the communal water supply services in the buildings.
The suspended particles occur in very small traces. Because of the minute quantity, the chemical composition of these tiny particles cannot be identified clearly. However, it is considered that their presence in such minute quantity should not affect the overall acceptability of the supplied water for potable purposes.
The investigation also revealed that the inlet and overflow pipes inside the roof tanks had corroded seriously, which might be the source for the tiny particles as discovered in the water samples. The Laguna City Management Office and the Registered Agent responsible for maintaining the communal services have been informed of our findings and advised to carry out a more detailed investigation to replace the corroded pipes. According to the latest information furnished by the Management Office, the replacement of the corroded pipes is near completion.
(b) Under section 7 of the Waterworks Ordinance (Chapter 102), the Registered Agent undertakes to accept responsibility for the custody and maintenance of the communal services. The Water Authority can serve notice under section 16 of the Ordinance to the Registered Agent requiring repairs or other works to be carried out in view of the poor conditions of the communal services. If the Registered Agent fails to carry out the required work, the Water Authority may, under section 10(e) of the Ordinance, disconnect the supply to the premises concerned.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 2 June 1993 3903
Disconnection of supply to a residential estate is inadvisable since this will cause major disturbance to the livelihood of a large population. To ensure that the Registered Agent will perform his duties and resolve this type of problems, the owners and tenants concerned should take an active part in directing and monitoring the work of the Registered Agent. No additional legislative control is considered necessary at this stage.
Curfew restriction in the Frontier Closed Area
17. MR TIK CHI-YUEN asked (in Chinese): Regarding the curfew restriction imposed in the Frontier Closed Area, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) of the number of residents in that area who were convicted in each of the past five years for entering or leaving a closed area without a "curfew permit" or contravening conditions of a "curfew permit" and the number of illegal immigrants arrested in that area during the curfew hours; and
(b) whether it will consider lifting the restriction in view of the inconvenience caused to the local residents?
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY: Mr President, in the past five years, 23 residents were convicted for entering or leaving the Frontier Closed Area without a curfew permit. The normal practice is to give a warning rather than prosecute.
The number of illegal immigrants (IIs) arrested in the Frontier Closed Area during the curfew hours since March 1991 are as follows:
IIs arrested
during curfew hours
1991 (March-December) 837
1992 615
1993 (January-April) 271
No statistics on this were kept prior to March 1991.
Illegal immigration from China has remained high this year. We have no plans at present to lift the curfew restriction, but this will be kept under review.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 2 June 1993 3904 Venue for 2000 Olympics
18. MR MARTIN BARROW asked: Will the Government inform this Council:
(a) whether it is aware that the Olympic Games in the year 2000, if held in Beijing, would bring considerable benefits to Hong Kong, both up to and during the year 2000, and
(b) if so, what steps it will take to support China's application?
SECRETARY FOR RECREATION AND CULTURE: Mr President,
(a) Six cities, namely Beijing (China), Berlin (Germany), Brasilia (Brazil), Istanbul (Turkey), Manchester (the United Kingdom) and Sydney (Australia), have submitted bids to the International Olympic Committee to host the Olympic Games in the year 2000. A decision will be made by the International Olympic Committee in September 1993.
The Government is aware that if Beijing were to be selected as the host city for the Olympic Games in the year 2000, it would bring benefits to Hong Kong, both in tourism and other areas. However, it would be premature, at this stage, to gauge the extent of these benefits.
(b) The selection of the host city is basically a matter for the International Olympic Committee which is made up of representatives of the Olympic Committees of the participating countries and territories. This being the case, any support of Beijing's bid should more appropriately come from the Hong Kong Amateur Sports Federation and Olympic Committee, which has made known its stand in February 1993 in support of Beijing.
Plot ratio restriction for "R(B)" Zone in Mid-Levels (West)
19. MR HENRY TANG asked: In relation to the plot ratio restriction for Residential (Group B) Zone in Mid-Levels (West) which was introduced in 1990, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) when the restriction proposal was first considered by the Town Planning Board;
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 2 June 1993 3905
(b) in the interim, how many plans for building developments in the area (with details of the number of units and the total floor area involved) were submitted to the Buildings Ordinance Office and were approved subsequently; and
(c) how many plans for building developments in the area (with details of the number of units and the total floor area involved) were approved in the three years prior to the submission of the restriction proposal to the Town Planning Board?
SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS: Mr President,
(a) The proposal was first considered by the Town Planning Board on 26 May 1989.
(b) In the interim, 12 building plan submissions related to "R(B)" sites were received by the Buildings Ordinance Office and all were subsequently approved. They involved a total of 1 731 domestic units and 159 332 sq m of gross floor area.
(c) Between June 1986 and May 1989, 27 building plan submissions related to the "R(B)" zone were approved. Details of the number of units and the total floor area will be provided as soon as the information has been retrieved from the records. (Annex III)
Crime reporting
20. MR LEE WING-TAT asked (in Chinese): Will the Government inform this Council:
(a) of the average time a citizen spent on waiting and statement giving respectively when reporting cases such as burglary to the police over the past three years; and
(b) whether the Administration will consider reducing the waiting and statement taking time required when citizens report cases to the police, and making the time limit so specified an item of the Police Force's Performance Pledge; if not, what the reasons are?
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY: Mr President, apart from reporting a crime in person, a person may report a crime by telephone either to the "999" hotline or to a police station; telephone lines are manned 24 hours a day.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 2 June 1993 3906
The police do not keep records of how long a person must wait before being able to report a crime or how long it takes for him to give a statement. In the former case, it depends, among other things, on the number of persons making reports at the time; in the latter, it depends on the nature of the crime, the circumstances of the case and how much information the person reporting the crime is supplying to the police.
Reports of burglary are normally made from the scene by telephone. In the majority of cases, the police will arrive at the scene to commence enquiries within 15 minutes.
The Police Force regularly reviews the procedures for reporting crime and for taking statements, so as to reduce the time required as far as possible. Since August 1992, a simple proforma has been introduced throughout the Force for reporting non-serious cases of robbery, burglary, theft, assault and criminal damage; burglary cases, involving property below the value of HK$20,000, are handled by this proforma. The police have also introduced special proforma designed for reporting cases of taking a vehicle without authority and shoplifting.
In view of the widely differing nature and circumstances of crime cases, it would be unrealistic to set a Performance Pledge in respect of the time required for waiting to make a report and the time required to give a statement. However, the police do have a Performance Pledge in relation to the response time for cases reported via "999"; it is nine minutes or less in the urban area and 14 minutes or less in the New Territories.
Motions
BIRTHS AND DEATHS REGISTRATION ORDINANCE
THE SECRETARY FOR SECURITY moved the following motion:
"That the Births and Deaths Registration Ordinance be amended -
(a) in section 9(2) by repealing "$20" and substituting "$40";
(b) in section 9(3) by repealing "$120" and substituting "$200";
(c) in section 13(2) by repealing "$20" and substituting "$40";
(d) in section 13(3) by repealing "$75" and substituting "$125";
(e) in section 22(1) by repealing "$20" and "$40" and substituting "$40" and "$80" respectively;
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 2 June 1993 3907 (f) in section 22(2) by repealing "$20" and substituting "$40";
(g) in section 22(3) by repealing "$120" and substituting "$200";
(h) in section 23 by repealing "$10" and substituting "$20"; and
(i) in section 27(c) by repealing "$75" and substituting "$125"."
He said: Mr President, I move the first motion standing in my name on the Order Paper. This proposes increases in the fees specified in the Births and Deaths Registration Ordinance for the registration of births and deaths and related matters such as the issue of certified copies of entries in registers, and search of records.
A recent review of fees and charges collected by the Immigration Department has indicated that in a number of areas, the Department is not recovering its costs, including the registration of births, deaths and marriages, where the shortfall is about 66%.
It is government policy to provide services to the public on a cost-recovery basis, unless there are good reasons for doing otherwise. We are, therefore, proposing to revise the fees in order to recover costs. Full details of all the increases taking place at this time are contained in the Annex which I have tabled for the information of Members.
The fees to be revised were last revised in March 1991. If approved, the new fees will be introduced on 4 June, when they are gazetted.
Mr President, I beg to move.
Question on the motion proposed, put and agreed to.
FOREIGN MARRIAGE ORDINANCE
THE SECRETARY FOR SECURITY moved the following motion:
"That the Foreign Marriage Ordinance be amended -
(a) in section 5 by repealing "$10" and substituting "$20"; and
(b) in section 6 by repealing "$120" and substituting "$200"."
He said: Mr President, I move the second motion standing in my name on the Order Paper. It seeks to increase the fees specified in the Foreign Marriage Ordinance.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 2 June 1993 3908
This Ordinance provides a means whereby Commonwealth citizens can give notice of marriage in Hong Kong, even though the marriage has taken place at a British Embassy abroad. Fees are payable for the issue of a certificate by the Registrar of Marriage. The fees were last revised in March 1991 and it is now proposed to increase them from $10 to $20 for a certificate by the Registrar of Marriage given under section 5 and from $120 to $200, for a Governor's licence given under section 6 of this Ordinance.
Mr President, I beg to move.
Question on the motion proposed, put and agreed to.
LEGITIMACY ORDINANCE
THE SECRETARY FOR SECURITY moved the following motion:
"That the Schedule to the Legitimacy Ordinance be amended -
(a) in paragraph 5 by repealing "$65" and substituting "$100"; and (b) in paragraph 6(1) by repealing "$20" and substituting "$40"."
He said: Mr President, I move the third motion in my name on the Order Paper. It seeks to increase the fees specified in the Legitimacy Ordinance.
This Ordinance provides for the re-registration of the births of legitimated persons. Fees collected relate to the re-registration of births and the issue of certified copies of entries of the birth. The fees were last revised in March 1991. It is now proposed to revise the fees from $65 to $100 for the re-registration of births and from $20 to $40 for a certified copy of an entry of the birth. This will bring the fees into line with the fees for similar services under the Births and Deaths Registration Ordinance.
Mr President, I beg to move.
Question on the motion proposed, put and agreed to.
First Reading of Bills
EMPLOYMENT (AMENDMENT) BILL 1993
BEDSPACE APARTMENTS BILL
INLAND REVENUE (AMENDMENT) (NO. 4) BILL 1993
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 2 June 1993 3909 BANK NOTES ISSUE (AMENDMENT) BILL 1993
EXCHANGE FUND (AMENDMENT) BILL 1993
Bills read the First time and ordered to be set down for Second Reading pursuant to Standing Order 41(3).
Second Reading of Bills
EMPLOYMENT (AMENDMENT) BILL 1993
THE SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER moved the Second Reading of: "A Bill to amend the Employment Ordinance."
He said: Mr President, I move the Second Reading of the Employment (Amendment) Bill 1993.
The Bill seeks to improve the provisions in the Employment Ordinance relating to certification of medical conditions, lay-off, annual leave, compensation to dismissed employees who give evidence against employers in proceedings and to streamline certain procedures.
At present, an employee who intends to resign and claim long service payment on grounds of ill health must be certified by a medical practitioner practising in a government, government subvented or public hospital as "permanently unfit" for the type of work he is performing. Experience shows that some employees had experienced delay and difficulties in obtaining such medical certificates. To simplify the present certification procedures, we propose to allow any medical practitioner registered under the Medical Registration Ordinance to issue the certificate. We also propose that if the employer is not satisfied with the medical assessment made by the employee, he may, at his own expense, appoint another medical practitioner to reassess the employee's medical conditions. Should the medical opinions of the two assessments be in conflict, the case may be referred to the Commissioner for Labour for determination. The Commissioner may seek advice from medical experts in arriving at a decision.
As regards the provisions relating to lay-off, an employee is currently deemed to be laid off if the total number of days on which work is not provided for him exceeds either half of the total number of normal working days in any period of four consecutive weeks, or one third of the total number of normal working days in any period of 26 consecutive weeks. However, there is an ambiguity in the existing provision on whether or not the days of lock out, rest days, statutory holidays and annual leave days should count as working days. To remove this ambiguity, we propose to specify that these days should not be reckoned as normal working days during the reference period.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 2 June 1993 3910
Under the existing provision of the Employment Ordinance, "leave year" means any period of 12 months starting on the day on which an employee starts employment or an anniversary of that day. An employee is entitled to a maximum of 14 days paid annual leave for a leave year. As different employees have different starting days of their leave year, a great deal of administrative work is imposed on an employer in keeping track of all his employees' annual leave. We therefore propose to introduce an option for an employer to specify any period of 12 consecutive months as a common leave year for all of his employees.
Last year, we introduced an amendment to the Employment Ordinance to prohibit an employer from dismissing his employee on the ground that the employee has given evidence or information to the authorities concerned in connection with the enforcement of the Ordinance or breaches of work safety regulations. To give better protection to employees, we now further propose that the court or magistrate be empowered to order the employer to pay compensation to his employee should he be convicted. The compensation should be in addition to any fine imposed by the court or the magistrate.
Finally, the Bill amends provisions concerning delegation of authority. At present, the Commissioner for Labour is empowered under the Ordinance to authorize in writing a public officer to perform any or all of the powers conferred on the Commissioner. Accordingly, the Commissioner has to sign each and every authorization, including purely routine ones such as departmental warrant cards. This is an ineffective use of senior management time. We therefore propose to expand the definition of "Commissioner" to include the Deputy Commissioner and Assistant Commissioners for Labour so as to enable them to exercise the powers of the Commissioner.
Bill referred to the House Committee pursuant to Standing Order 42(3A).
BEDSPACE APARTMENTS BILL
THE SECRETARY FOR HOME AFFAIRS moved the Second Reading of: "A Bill to provide for the regulation, supervision and safety of bedspace apartments and for connected purposes."
He said: Mr President, I move that the Bedspace Apartments Bill 1993 be read a Second time.
In December 1990, a fire broke out in a bedspace apartment in Sham Shui Po. Seven persons were killed. In October 1991, the Coroner's Court recommended that consideration be given by the authorities to a bedspace apartment licensing and inspection scheme. The Bedspace Apartments Bill 1993 provides for a licensing scheme to regulate the fire and building safety of bedspace apartments.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 2 June 1993 3911
"Bedspace apartment" is defined in clause 2 as a flat which contains 12 or more bedspaces for rental purposes. Clause 3 provides for exclusion of certain premises from the licensing scheme. Such premises include those being regulated by other Ordinances.
Upon implementation of the licensing scheme, the Authority will grant any application for exemption for any period not exceeding two years. During this first two year period, the Authority will inspect all existing bedspace apartments which should then be operating under certificates of exemption. After these inspections the Authority will advise the operators on the improvement works required for licensing purposes.
Clauses 8 to 10 empower the Authority to issue, renew or revoke certificates of exemption.
Clause 12 provides for the application for and issue of licences. Applicants for licences will have to satisfy the Authority that their bedspace apartments have complied with the safety requirements under clause 18. Practical guidance for compliance with such requirements will be provided in a Code of Practice devised by the Authority under clause 19 and published in the Gazette. Under clause 13, a bedspace apartment will be re-inspected to ensure that the safety standards have been maintained before a licence is renewed.
Clauses 21 and 22 empower the Authority to direct remedial measures and execute remedial works. Clause 23 empowers the District Court to order any bedspace apartment to be closed or to cease to be used as bedspace apartment, if there is any danger or risk of danger to occupiers or if closure is necessary to enable remedial works to be executed by the Authority.
Clause 26 provides for appeals arising from enforcement of the legislation to be determined by an Appeal Board chaired by a person who is qualified for appointment as a District Judge. The Governor will appoint the Chairman and a panel of persons as members. Clause 28 provides for the proceedings of the Appeal Board.
Fees are payable to the Authority in respect of certificates of exemption and licences. Clause 34 empowers the Governor in Council to make regulations providing for such fees.
In order to comply with the licensing requirements, some bedspace apartments will have to reduce the number of bedspaces provided. In this connection, it is estimated that about 400 bedspaces will have to be given up. We have already taken steps to make available alternative housing to those so affected. Social Welfare Department will assist those affected lodgers aged 60 and above and the disabled through compassionate rehousing, residential care facilities for the elderly or hostels for single persons. Those affected lodgers who do not fall within the above categories will be eligible for application for
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 2 June 1993 3912
admission into singleton hostels established by the City and New Territories Administration.
Bill referred to the House Committee pursuant to Standing Order 42(3A).
INLAND REVENUE (AMENDMENT) (NO. 4) BILL 1993
THE SECRETARY FOR THE TREASURY moved the Second Reading of: "A Bill to amend the Inland Revenue Ordinance."
He said: Mr President, I move that the Inland Revenue (Amendment) (No. 4) Bill 1993 be read the Second time.
In December 1992, this Council enacted the Occupational Retirement Schemes Ordinance. The purpose of that Ordinance is to provide a legislative framework for the prudential regulation of private sector retirement schemes in Hong Kong. The main purpose of the Bill now before Members is to make consequential amendments to the Inland Revenue Ordinance which are necessary as a result. First, amendments are required to take account of the fact that the Commissioner of Inland Revenue's role as the approving authority for retirement schemes will, in future, be taken over by the Commissioner of Insurance. Secondly, amendments are necessary to ensure that recognized occupational retirement schemes will continue to enjoy the tax benefits and exemptions to which they are currently entitled. Thirdly, amendments are needed to provide for appropriate transitional arrangements.
In addition to the consequential amendments, the opportunity has been taken to introduce certain minor anti-avoidance provisions in relation to retirement schemes and to empower the Commissioner of Inland Revenue to issue notices of assessment by ordinary (as opposed to registered) post.
Bill referred to the House Committee pursuant to Standing Order 42(3A).
BANK NOTES ISSUE (AMENDMENT) BILL 1993
THE SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES moved the Second Reading of: "A Bill to amend the Bank Notes Issue Ordinance."
He said: Mr President, I move the Second Reading of the Bank Notes Issue (Amendment) Bill 1993.
The purpose of the Bill is to enable the Bank of China to become a note-issuing bank.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 2 June 1993 3913
In 1991, the Bank of China approached the Administration expressing an interest in becoming a note-issuer. After a series of discussions with the bank, the Administration was satisfied that the Bank of China was prepared and able to meet the technical requirements of becoming a note-issuing bank. Moreover the Administration considered that Hong Kong could accommodate an additional note-issuing bank without causing confusion in the currency. Accordingly on 12 January 1993 the Governor in Council gave approval in principle for the bank to commence issuing bank notes from May 1994, and Members were briefed on that decision at the time.
Under the existing Bank Notes Issue Ordinance and under the Exchange Fund Ordinance, there are two note-issuing banks in Hong Kong, namely the Hongkong and Shanghai Banking Corporation Limited and the Standard Chartered Bank. Amendments to both these Ordinances are required to enable the Bank of China also to become a note issuing bank and to issue bank notes as legal tender in Hong Kong.
This change is now to be given effect by clauses 2 and 3 of the Bank Notes Issue (Amendment) Bill 1993. A similar amendment to the Exchange Fund Ordinance will be introduced by clause 2 of the Exchange Fund (Amendment) Bill 1993.
Bill referred to the House Committee pursuant to Standing Order 42(3A).
EXCHANGE FUND (AMENDMENT) BILL 1993
THE SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES moved the Second Reading of: "A Bill to amend the Exchange Fund Ordinance."
He said: Mr President, I move the Second Reading of the Exchange Fund (Amendment) Bill 1993.
The main purpose of the Bill is to enable the Bank of China to become a note issuing bank. The background has already been explained in my speech moving the Second Reading of the Bank Notes Issue (Amendment) Bill 1993.
Apart from clause 2, which enables the Bank of China to become an additional note-issuing bank, there is a technical change which involves no change in substance but serves to clarify an existing provision in the Exchange Fund Ordinance relevant to all note issuing banks. The present note-issue arrangement requires a note-issuing bank to deposit with the Financial Secretary reserves for the account of the Exchange Fund to back its issue of legal tender bank notes. The Financial Secretary has statutory power to use such reserves to redeem bank notes issued and this power underpins confidence in the Hong Kong dollar. The Financial Secretary may exercise such power upon the winding up of a note-issuing bank to redeem bank notes issued by that bank, but this power is presently not explicitly stated in legislation. For the avoidance of
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 2 June 1993 3914
doubt, clause 3 of the Bill makes that power explicit and it does so without either adding to or detracting from the existing power of the Financial Secretary.
Bill referred to the House Committee pursuant to Standing Order 42(3A).
JUDICIAL PROCEEDINGS (ADJOURNMENT DURING GALE WARNINGS) (AMENDMENT) BILL 1993
Resumption of debate on Second Reading which was moved on 12 May 1993 Question on the Second Reading of the Bill proposed, put and agreed to. Bill read the Second time.
Bill committed to a Committee of the whole Council pursuant to Standing Order 43(1).
EDUCATION (AMENDMENT) BILL 1993
Resumption of debate on Second Reading which was moved on 21 April 1993 Question on the Second Reading of the Bill proposed, put and agreed to. Bill read the Second time.
Bill committed to a Committee of the whole Council pursuant to Standing Order 43(1).
Committee stage of Bills
Council went into Committee.
JUDICIAL PROCEEDINGS (ADJOURNMENT DURING GALE WARNINGS) (AMENDMENT) BILL 1993
Clauses 1 to 9 were agreed to.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 2 June 1993 3915 EDUCATION (AMENDMENT) BILL 1993
Clauses 1 to 30 were agreed to.
Council then resumed.
Third Reading of Bills
THE ATTORNEY GENERAL reported that the
JUDICIAL PROCEEDINGS (ADJOURNMENT DURING GALE WARNINGS) (AMENDMENT) BILL 1993 and
EDUCATION (AMENDMENT) BILL 1993
had passed through Committee without amendment. He moved the Third Reading of the Bills.
Question on the Third Reading of the Bills proposed, put and agreed to. Bills read the Third time and passed.
Members' motions
PRESIDENT: I have accepted the recommendations of the House Committee as to time limits on speeches and Members were informed by circular on 31 May. The mover of the motion will have 15 minutes for his speech including his reply and another five minutes to reply to proposed amendments. Other Members, including movers of amendments, will have seven minutes for their speeches. Under Standing Order 27A, I am required to direct any Member speaking in excess of the specified time to discontinue his speech.
REVIEW OF MANAGEMENT OF PUBLIC RENTAL HOUSING AND HOME OWNERSHIP SCHEME ESTATES
REV FUNG CHI-WOOD moved the following motion:
"That in view of the fact that considerable improvement is called for on such matters as law and order, cleanliness, sanitation, and management in public rental and Home Ownership Scheme estates, this Council urges the Housing Authority to expeditiously conduct a detailed review of these matters, propose measures for improvement, and publish its findings in a report for public consultation."
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 2 June 1993 3916
REV FUNG CHI-WOOD (in Cantonese): Mr President, I move the motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.
Public security has always been a problem in public housing estates. Whereas most private residential buildings are almost invariably equipped with a security gate nowadays, and security guards hired to keep watch, the rental housing estates are still very much like free territory for all. There is no restriction whatever on anyone entering and leaving. It is not surprising therefore that loan sharks and sex offenders are prone to target public housing tenants. In this regard, there is surely a need for public security measures to be stepped up in public housing estates.
The way in which the public housing and Home Ownership Scheme (HOS) estates are managed could be a cause of great nuisance to the public, that is, if the management is not quite up to standard. For example, if the elevator is always out of service, a whole family young and old will have to take the stairs. There is always this problem of no flushing water in the toilet; while repair work may be carried out, the problem will recur almost immediately afterwards. It may actually turn out that residents may have to put up with no flushing water more often than they can enjoy the convenience of the flushing toilet. Indeed, with the proliferation of hawkers after 5 pm, there is not only the problem of obstruction, but more seriously, there is the problem of a threat to the safety of residents and members of the public who have to negotiate their way through the fleet of hawker driven carts of cooked food and burning oil. On top of these, there is also the problem of illegal parking in the estates which is getting quite serious.
I conducted a telephone poll on a random sample of occupants of public housing and HOS estates selected from across the territory between the 17th and the 31st of May this year. A total of 11 questions were asked.
The survey found that the hurling of objects out of window was the cause of the most complaints. 42% of the respondents were unhappy with the present situation; only 21% found the present situation acceptable. The only action taken by the Housing Department with regard to the situation was the posting of circulars to remind residents not to commit the offence. The department failed to take any positive measure at all. For example, there were very few prosecutions with regard to the offence committed on the black spots in the past. In this regard, the Housing Department should address the problem seriously and step up public education at district level. For example, activities should be organized and publicity campaigns should be launched, within the first two years of occupancy of a new estate, to educate members of the public about the harm caused by reckless hurling of objects out of the window.
The next most popular cause of complaint was the service of the elevator. 41% of the respondents were not happy with the situation; only 29% found the present situation acceptable. It was perceived to be a very serious problem. The elevator was always out of service and maintenance was poor. It sometimes
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 2 June 1993 3917
happened that three out of the six elevators were out of order at the same time and elevators could remain out of order for anything from a week to a whole month. All that was much to the inconvenience of the residents. This state of affairs is attributable to the poor quality of the elevators on the one hand and to the extremely deplorable maintenance standard on the other. As a matter of fact, the Housing Authority should review the need for the purchase of better quality elevators.
The third most popular cause of complaint was the pricing of commodities in the food market. 31% of the respondents were not happy with the situation; only 12% found the present situation acceptable. Many of the respondents found the prices unreasonable because the market was dominated by a few traders. Under the present situation, the Housing Department seldom sees the need to perform its monitoring role. Indeed, it is the frequent practice of the department to contract a number of stalls to the same operator, whether intentionally or otherwise. Meanwhile, there is also the problem of trade-off between shop operators who are in similar line of business. For example, one may secretly sell one's business to another with the result that the same person may end up owning two or more shops. This is how the monopoly situation has come about. The Housing Department has not carried out any active investigation to prosecute the offenders. Although many residents find the prices unreasonable, the Housing Department fails to address the issue in a positive way. The second reason which may account for the monopoly situation is that the market has only a very small number of stalls. A certain kind of good may be sold in only one or two shops. The monopoly situation which results is the cause of the exorbitant prices which have in turn driven many residents to shop outside the estate for cheaper goods.
The fourth most popular cause of complaint was the the problem of youth gangs on the housing estates. 28% of the respondents were not happy with the situation; only 24% found the situation acceptable. The indication is clear that there is a need for security guards to be hired to patrol the estates.
Other problems identified in the survey were the problems of cleanliness in the estates, pet-keeping and the sanitary standard of the food market. 25% of the residents were not happy with the situation, but unfortunately, the same percentage of residents found the situation satisfactory. The rest of the respondents found the situation acceptable. That is to say, the respondents were evenly split on the issue, with one half expressing satisfaction and the other half expressing dissatisfaction. This is not an entirely satisfactory situation because after all, there should be more people expressing satisfaction than people expressing otherwise.
But why have such serious problems of management been allowed to happen in public housing and HOS estates in the first place?
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 2 June 1993 3918
The crux of the problem rests with the lack of a role for residents to play in the formulation and implementation of the policies with regard to the public housing and HOS programmes. The lack of participation means that residents have no say at all in the decision-making process, that they have not been duly consulted, and that they have not been given sufficient information.
First of all, I would like to speak on the right to have a say in policy decision. While the Housing Authority is responsible for the formulation of policy, it is not an elected body. Housing Authority members who have the mandate of the public through winning the three-tier elections only take up a small number of seats. Most of the meetings and papers of the Housing Authority are not open to the public. It is quite right then for one to question how such a closed door policy-making process is going to satisfy the needs of members of the public at the end of the day. While it goes without saying that the central housing policy decision process is one without public participation, the present situation is that even matters of estate management are exclusively the concern of bureaucrats of the Housing Department. What is the rationale for us to continue to put up with a situation like that? There are certainly improvements which can be introduced in many areas.
I will only give one example. My office carried out a survey last month on the issue of inadequate eating establishments in the five estates located at Tai Po and North District. 75% of the respondents felt that there were not enough eating establishments. The situation was particularly acute in Fu Hang Estate, where 95% of the respondents took that view. The problem which has arisen is the result of the negligence of the Housing Department in policy formulation. In the past, the Housing Department encountered difficulties with regard to the management of cafes and open-type kiosks whose operators often occupied public space and disturbed public peace. Probably as a result of these management difficulties, the Housing Department has seen fit to abolish cafes and open-type kiosks in newly completed public housing estates. Only one restaurant and one fast food shop are allowed to operate. However, this has given rise to the problem of long queues; the problem now is one of inadequate provision. Meanwhile, residents have few options because the fast food shop serves the same menu, week in, week out. The lack of real choice means that one gets bored with the bland food over a period of time. It is hoped that with this case in mind, the Housing Department will have the wisdom of rectifying its practice of formulating its policy from behind closed doors.
I would like to mention here the Singaporean experience. The Housing and Development Board in Singapore set up in 1988 various Town Councils which took over the powers of estate management from the Housing Department. The Singaporean people are enabled to participate in the formulation of policies regarding housing management in a direct manner.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 2 June 1993 3919
Secondly, I would like to talk about the issue of the right to be consulted. There are not many occasions in the year where the Housing Authority will openly seek the advice of the public with regard to its housing policy. The usual practice is for housing policy decisions to be taken merely after listening to the views expressed by members of the Housing Authority themselves.
With regard to public consultation at the level of housing estates, its scope is only limited to the informal bi-monthly meetings of Housing Managers with mutual aid committee chairmen and area leaders. However, the agendas of such meetings are decided by the Housing Managers. In many cases, what the Housing Managers regard to be touchy issues, such as the "double rent policy", will not be included in the meetings for discussion. The meetings will not decide on policy matters. Meanwhile, at district board meetings, the Housing Department will only give an account of the housing plans, at the request of district board members. The district boards will not be consulted beforehand on such plans.
In the United Kingdom, a housing ordinance was passed in 1980 which provided for the right of tenants to be consulted on any issue relating to housing management which might affect them. In the process of consultation, a proposal which relates to, for example, maintenance and improvement works, will have to be made available to the tenants in the form of a written paper. In the wake of the consultation exercise, the initial decision taken will be relayed to the tenants so that the Housing Service Committee will be able to receive and consider the tenants' feedback before they reach a final decision. This procedure which is set out in detail in the tenancy agreement as part of the rights of the tenants is indeed a practice in the United Kingdom. It is worth our while to adopt it in Hong Kong.
Thirdly, on the issue of the monitoring of housing as a social service, there is no way members of the public are able to monitor the situation due to highly restricted access to the required information. At the level of central government, the Housing Authority is an independent body which is subject to the monitoring of none of the elected bodies within our three-tier political framework. Whatever tier the elected body you are talking about, it does not have any more power than the Consumer Council; it can only bring the pressure of public opinion to bear on the Housing Authority. Furthermore, given the fact that the Housing Authority will no longer receive capital injection from the Government, there is no way the Legislative Council is able to monitor the operation of the Housing Authority through its control over public finance. As far as the district level is concerned, the Housing Manager is not obligated to submit any management report to the district board or any other elected body. The usual practice is only for the former to explain to the district boards the established policy, the way in which it is being implemented and the sort of problems which have been encountered at the district level. There is no question of the performance of the civil servant being subject to public monitoring.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 2 June 1993 3920
Lastly, I would like to talk about the complaint system. What happens now is that many residents prefer taking their case to elected public representatives who have no policy decision powers. They will not directly complain to the housing officers. This is an indication that there is a lack of faith among residents in the bureaucrats of the Housing Department. Meanwhile, another reason why residents are reluctant to complain to the Housing Department is that some of them believe that the attitude of its officers badly needs improvement.
The poor attitude of some of the staff of the Housing Department further reveals another problem. Is housing management after all the business of managing people or serving people? The duties of the Housing Department staff are mostly to do with making sure that the residents comply with the Housing Ordinance and other regulations. They are not to do with seeking ways to help the tenants and to serve them better. As a matter of fact, the Housing Department staff are public servants and their salaries are paid by rental revenue. In that regard, the tenants may be said to be their paymasters. But in reality, these public servants behave more like little bosses who feel superior to the tenants.
In October last year, the Governor said in his policy address that the civil service will give their performance pledge. Although eight departments have already given their performance pledges, the Housing Department has yet to submit the most basic outline of such a performance pledge to the Housing Authority for consideration. I wonder when the Housing Authority and the Housing Department will be able to announce their performance pledge to the public. There are many issues which I can raise in respect of public housing and HOS estates. Due to the time constraint, I will have to stop here. My United Democrats colleagues will take up the other issues in their speeches.
With these remarks, I move my motion and hope that it will secure your support. Question on the motion proposed.
MR HUI YIN-FAT (in Cantonese): Mr President, a good law and order situation and a hygienically sound living environment are both important elements of a decent life for everyone. However, it would appear that a common problem with most modern cities is that the more densely populated a locality, the more problems it will have in respect of law and order and public sanitation. In this regard, it is necessary for us to achieve a better understanding of the problems from a macroscopic point of view and formulate a better conceived solution. It is not appropriate for us to address only the needs of a certain type of public housing estates. If we act in this way, flexibility will be sacrificed in the implementation of policy. For example, there are about one half of our population living in public housing or Home Ownership Scheme (HOS) estates managed by the Housing Authority. However,
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 2 June 1993 3921
if we look at the figures last year, we will find that the public housing estates which have a higher living density have a crime rate which is less than 40% of our overall crime rate. Suppose we are to ask the police to deploy its officers solely on the basis of the crime rates of the respective housing estates, today we may actually find ourselves having to ask the police to reduce their strength in various public housing estates.
I have no doubt that the recent spate of sexual assaults happening in Tuen Mun is a matter of wide public concern. Residents of Tuen Mun are gravely concerned about the situation. We have also seen in recent years the activities of loan sharks in the housing estates and media reports of triad infiltration in the housing estate-based decorating business. Just a couple of days ago, we heard about complaints about illegal elements selling medicinal ointment in the housing estates, through tactics closely bordering on intimidation. However, we should refrain from looking at these problems in over simplistic terms. We should not put the blame entirely on the Housing Department and the police. Whereas we believe that Housing Department staff will surely co-operate with the police in the fight against criminal activities in the housing estates, a point which has to be made is that the maintenance of law and order is not only the responsibility of the police. The main thrust in the fight against crime should come from the residents themselves. If the residents do not pay any heed to home security and their own physical safety, if they are not willing to come forward to report crimes, then the police will have an uphill battle to fight and will not be able to achieve the good result which they deserve for their effort, even working in full co-operation with the Housing Department.
Similarly, the maintenance of a hygienic environment is also the responsibility of everybody; it is by no means the sole responsibility of the Housing Department staff. I always take the view that instead of committing more manpower resources to the effort to improve environmental hygiene, it is better to achieve the objective through community education and the enhancement of the public awareness of the need for environmental protection. That is not only more in keeping with the principle of cost effectiveness but will also produce long-lasting results.
As a social worker for many years, I always advocate that the a good neighbourly relationship is highly conducive to the formation of a good social environment and a good law and order situation. For example, the Housing Authority has in recent years implemented an "Emergency Alarm System" for old tenants living by themselves and an "Estate Liaison Officer Scheme", in order to render assistance to the elderly who are in need of special care and to establish a good neighbourly relationship within the estate. I consider that the Housing Authority has taken a major step forward in terms of not only providing accommodation but also moving beyond that, working towards improved estate management through the promotion of a good neighbourly relationship.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 2 June 1993 3922
It goes without saying that in the context of the social progress which has been made over the years, it can be anticipated that the housing estate tenants will have rising expectations and become more demanding. It is of course up to the Housing Authority to continue to solicit the views of tenants in the formulation of its estate management policy. The way I understand the situation is that, in addition to the regular daily contact between the estate office staff and the tenants, the Housing Department staff will also attend meetings of the mutual aid committees, area committees and the district boards so that they can participate in the discussion of housing matters. Indeed, the Management and Operations Committee of the Housing Authority even makes a point of arranging for Housing Authority members to meet residents organizations and other concern groups regularly so that they will be able to understand the latter's views. As a matter of fact, a pressure group which is also a highly vocal critic of the public housing policy has said to me that they are quite happy with the existing channels of communication, though they would consider that there is room for further improvement.
All in all, as a member of the Housing Authority, it is certainly my responsibility to urge the Housing Department on behalf of the public to make improvement in the area of estates management. But it must be remembered that enormous manpower and material resources are involved in the management of all the public housing estates in Hong Kong. We have to consider whether there are more positive ways to bring about the desired improvement. For example, we can seek improvement through public education and propaganda, through enhancing the spirit of mutual help among residents, or alternatively, we can actually entrust the ad hoc group on estate management with the formulation of a policy which will address the issue.
For the above reasons, I consider that the motion before us today is more about show than substance. Mr President, with these remarks, I object to the motion.
MR SZETO WAH (in Cantonese): Mr President, about 65% of residents in my electoral constituency — Kowloon East — live in public housing estates.
I had held some residents' meetings in several housing estates to seek residents' views about the policy address and the Budget. However, I found that usually less than half an hour into the meetings, the participants who spoke invariably would change the subject and started to voice complaints against public housing matters. Those presiding the meetings, though making tremendous efforts, were unable to lead the discussion to a point where they would go back to the original themes.
What I have just described is very common. This prompts me to ask myself: Will it attract more attendants if I organize complaint forums in housing estates?
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 2 June 1993 3923
With this in mind, I spent five evenings with two hours each on holding complaint forums at five housing estates, namely Tak Tin, Lam Tin, Tsui Ping, Ngau Tau Kok (Upper) and Ping Shek. In fact, they were not formal forums but meetings some voluntary workers and I arranged to meet residents. We would place several tables and chairs at a public area and receive residents who brought their complaints to us. We then jotted down their complaints and took action afterwards. The complaints were not restricted to matters pertaining to public housing estates.
During these five nights with a total of 10 man-hours, I received 314 complaints, among which 97 cases are about requests for rent reduction, transfer, ex gratia transfer or objection to the "well-off" tenants policy whereas all the remaining 217 cases are directed against estate management, constituting 69% of the cases, or over two-thirds of the total number of complaints.
Furthermore, I have received an additional 288 complaint cases over these two years in my ward office. Among these cases, 155 are related to housing problems and they account for about 54% of the complaints. An overwhelming majority of these housing problems also involve estate management.
As regards the complaints against estate management, the areas of concern include flushing, leakage, cleanliness and sanitation, noise pollution, objects falling from high, lifts, keeping of dogs, pedestrian access, illegal parking, hawkers, construction materials, renovation and so forth.
The management staff of the Housing Department were aware of the tenants' complaints and grievances. But how did they react to them? I would like to give an account of any own experience.
For each complaint I received, I would, without exception, write to the department concerned and send a copy of the letter to the complainant. I would then follow up the matter by phone. On one occasion, I held a complaint forum at a housing estate and afterwards I wrote to the management section of the housing estate several dozens of letters concerning the complaints. About two weeks later, I ran into an officer of the aforesaid management section. He laughed and said, "Uncle Wah, did you recently change your occupation and become engaged in letter writing, did you not?" In this connection, one can imagine what response ordinary tenants can expect when they lodge their complaints.
A tenant told me that tenants are not allowed to keep dogs in housing estates. However, when he went to the management office to pay rent one day, he saw another tenant who also went there to pay rent hold a puppy in his arms. When the officer at the office saw the puppy, he did not remind the tenant that keeping of dogs was forbidden in public housing estates but, on the contrary, patted the puppy and said, "Your puppy is very cute!" This is a typical example of paying lip service to orders and prohibitions.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 2 June 1993 3924
In Hong Kong about half of the population are living in public housing estates. Estate management would have a significant impact on their everyday life. It may well be said that the tenants' well-being hinges, to a large extent, on estate management. Any malpractice in such management is going to upset tenants' peaceful lives. This explains why they feel much more concerned about estate management than the policy address and the Budget.
Estate management has been plagued with a considerable number of long-standing big problems. Failure to deal with them squarely, the problems will become more difficult to resolve. As this is a matter concerning the lives of nearly half of our population, the Administration must not treat it lightly. It should carry out a thorough review as soon as possible so that a solution can be found to uproot the problems. In addition, public housing tenants should be urged to express their views when the review is launched to identify the solution. In order to have fruitful results, we must take the mass viewpoint and follow the mass line throughout the exercise.
Someone described this motion as "more about show than substance". I hope the person who made such a comment would care to live in a public housing estate himself or go to a public housing estate to talk with the tenants there.
Mr President, with these remarks, I support the motion.
MR LAU WAH-SUM (in Cantonese): Mr President, since its establishment, the Housing Authority has been providing subsidized flats to over half of the Hong Kong residents. At present, there are more than 3 million people living in 146 public housing and Home Ownership Scheme (HOS) estates. It is obvious to all that in these 20 to 30 years, the construction programme of public housing in Hong Kong is indeed second to none. However, with the rapid development of society, residents' demand for a better living environment is becoming keener by the day. The Housing Department should have kept on reviewing the management issues of the existing public housing and HOS estates, in order to meet the residents' wishes. Therefore, the Liberal Party supports the Rev FUNG's motion. I hope that the Housing Department will pay particular attention to the following points while conducting a review:
(1) Supervision of contractors to ensure quality of works: The Housing Department is at present taking measures and having guidelines on the monitoring of the quality and quantity of the works being carried out. Nevertheless, the media are still always reporting cases in which ceilings peel off, water pipes crack and reinforcing bars show after the residents have moved into the HOS estates for two or three years. The Housing Department should promptly review whether the existing supervisory measures are adequate and step up prosecutions against contractors who scamp work and stint material so as to protect residents' basic interests.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 2 June 1993 3925
(2) Law and order in public housing estates: The recent saga of the serial rapist in Tai Hing Estate, Tuen Mun poses a very serious problem which makes the residents feel scared whenever they go out and come back. The residents are blaming it on inadequate security measures in public housing. Although according to the records of 1988 to 1992, the average crime rate in public housing is lower than that of private housing, the average figures are not reliable. The Housing Department should immediately review the situation of those housing estates where crime prevention facilities are obviously insufficient. Experts should be invited to design a good security system to protect residents' safety while they are going out and coming back. I trust that the residents will not object to the incorporation of the installation fees into the rents by instalments. The Housing Department should not neglect those housing estates with law and order problems by using the excuse that the average crime rate in public housing is lower than that of private housing and that resources are insufficient.
(3) Repair and maintenance of housing estates: The Housing Department should review the existing repair and maintenance system and the efficiency in communication within the hierarchy. Although the Housing Department has already got service guidelines, these guidelines must be strictly adhered to. Once a resident lodges a complaint against the maintenance facilities of a housing estate, not only should the Housing Department shorten the time it takes to reply to the resident as much as possible, it should also specify the date of completion of works and fulfil its promise to the resident. The Housing Department should consult the residents on the inspections and system of maintenance of existing buildings in order to achieve the best results.
(4) Authorized public housing estate decoration contractors: Recently, it is seen on television that some public housing estate residents who have just moved in are dissatisfied with the requirement regarding authorized decoration contractors stipulated by the Housing Department. These reports also hint that triads have already infiltrated into the decoration industry. It is hoped that the Housing Department can conduct a comprehensive review into this requirement in consultation with residents and then solve the problem accordingly. Moreover, transparency should be enhanced to improve work efficiency.
(5) Vacant flats in public housing estates: Due to inadequate powers and manpower shortage, officers-in-charge of the housing estates are not very successful in prosecuting householders for leaving the flats vacant. Can the Housing Department borrow the example of Singapore and set up an independent investigation group to prosecute all tenants who broke the regulations? Although such a
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 2 June 1993 3926
move will involve extra resources, if more vacant flats can be recovered to accommodate those on the Waiting List, such expenditure will be absolutely cost-effective.
(6) Illegal parking in housing estates: The Housing Department has been implementing the privatization scheme of carparks for some time. The department also considers that the management problem of carparks has already been solved. Nevertheless, illegal parking is still a serious problem in housing estates. Can the Housing Department consider letting people from private carpark management firms take over the job of instituting prosecution against illegal parking? That can avoid difficulties in enforcement due to insufficient staff or favouritism on the part of the public housing management people.
(7) Illegal hawking problem in old-type public housing estates: Public housing estates built in the early days were restricted by the layout area available which made it incompatible with the residents' demand for better living environment nowadays. Examples include the uneven distribution of locations of restaurants, market premises being so insufficient that it has resulted in illegal hawking getting more and more rampant inside the housing estates. It is hoped that the Housing Department, apart from confiscating the goods and prosecuting the hawkers, can identify places suitable for hawking so that there can be centralized management, with a view to alleviating the illegal hawking problem.
Finally, I think that the Housing Department should improve its communication with organizations like the mutual aid committees, residents' associations and so on. Direct talks should be held regularly to enhance transparency. Moreover, the department should report to them regularly during the ongoing review process, so that residents can voice their opinions and the greatest effects can be obtained.
With these remarks, I support the motion.
MR ALBERT CHAN (in Cantonese): Mr President, the Housing Authority provides housing for nearly half of the Hong Kong population. But some of its buildings hardly meet presentday community needs because they were built long ago with very backward facilities. In my constituency of New Territories South which includes Tsuen Wan and Kwai Chung, for example, most of the public housing estates were built more than 15 years ago and some of them are more than 20 years old. The public facilities and design of these estates fall far short of presentday community needs. The design of these buildings, in particular, did not take into consideration the question of security, and this has provided lawless elements with opportunities to pose a threat to the lives and properties of the residents. The open design of old public housing estates allows free access
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 2 June 1993 3927
by anyone, making it easy for criminals to commit crimes. And instances of robbery, indecent assault, drug trafficking and gambling in these estates are numerous.
Given that the crime rate at public housing estates tends to be on the rise, there is an imperative need for the Housing Authority to improve security facilities and installations at public housing estates now. I personally believe the Authority can add the following facilities to old estates, taking reference from current arrangements for Home Ownership Scheme estates:
(1) erecting gates at the lobby of each building;
(2) employing security guards to provide 24-hour security service; and
(3) installing more or improving lighting at inadequately lit places within or around the estates.
Apart from inadequate security facilities, another serious problem of public housing estates is the question of law and order which is connected with improper management. The problem of gambling, among others, is one of the most obvious and common examples. The situation is particularly serious in some old estates. With the ageing of the population in these old estates, many old people will rally in the open areas of the estates to while away their time by playing cards, "tin kau" and "sap ng woo", as a result of the lack of on-estate recreation grounds and inadequate welfare facilities for the elderly. This phenomenon is common in all old estates. While there is nothing wrong with the old people playing cards to pass time, triad elements will easily make use of the opportunity to mix with the old people, encouraging them to increase the amount of their stakes. Hence problems like loan sharking and cheating will then follow. Apart from old people gathering to gamble in the old estates, we can see that the age of the gamblers tends to be on the fall. We can also see people "standing sentry" not far away on the look out for police raids. In fact there is evidence to show that participation by the triads is becoming serious.
A homicide case happened in Lei Muk Shue Estate, Tsuen Wan several months ago. It was reported that the suspect had stabbed a loan-shark to death because the suspect had borrowed high-interest loans and suspected that he had been cheated at gambling in the estate. A similar case also happened in Tung Tau Estate on 31 May this year. According to informed sources and residents of the estate, the stakes at this kind of gambling parties sometimes may amount to as much as a few tens of thousand dollars. Hence one can see how serious this problem has become.
Many of the problems confronting public housing estates, the old ones in particular, are connected with the building design and inadequate estate management. The Housing Authority is indeed obliged to comprehensively review the facilities and management quality of existing estates, in order to improve estate security and to raise the quality of life of tenants. It should also
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 2 June 1993 3928
endow the local management office with greater flexibility, so that they can formulate different policies tailored to meet the needs of individual estates, rather than leaving the problems unmitigated as a result of perfunctory performance of duty.
Mr President, to be able to settle down and work happily is an entitlement, as well as a right, of all members of a civilized society. Under the current circumstances where the Housing Authority has large surpluses, the facilities and management of existing estates should be improved.
With these remarks, Mr President, I support Rev FUNG Chi-wood's motion.
MR FREDERICK FUNG (in Cantonese): Mr President, the motion before us today consists of two parts. It concerns the conduct of public consultation on the one hand, and the content of public consultation on the other, that is the management of the housing estates, law and order and the problem of environmental hygiene. Insofar as the issue of public consultation is concerned, I am not opposed to it. However, given the nature of the Housing Authority, particularly bearing in mind that it works behind closed doors, and that Housing Authority members are all appointees charged with the function of policy-making, I feel that public consultation should not be confined to individual issues, but rather the setting up of a systematic public consultation machinery.
I think that since we are talking about the central management of over 170 housing estates and an enormous number of residents, it is very difficult indeed to have a completely flawless policy which will ensure that each and every aspect of management work will be satisfactorily performed. In this regard, I think that in order to guarantee satisfactory performance, the housing policy should have a degree of flexibility. Put in another way, the housing policy should be suitably adjusted and improved as and when it is implemented in the respective districts and estates, according to their special needs and circumstances. This is the only way in which the management of housing estates can measure up to satisfactory standard and I would include under the concept of management the maintenance of law and order, cleanliness and other related management duties. In this regard, I propose that following the formulation of a basic policy by the Housing Authority, the actual implementation of policy and the conduct of public consultation should be turned over to the another body. Put in another way, estate management advisory committees should be set up in the various districts. And estate management advisory committees may be as small or large as we design them to be. For example, we can have a small estate management advisory committee set up for each district. We can just as well set up a larger estate management committee to solicit resident's views at the district level. In this way the management policy formulated by the Housing Authority will be channelled to the districts and housing estates for residents' comments. Adjustments can then be made to the policy in a flexible manner on the basis of these comments, before implementation, in the respective housing
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 2 June 1993 3929
estates. For example, each year an allocation of several million dollars is made available for maintenance and improvement works to be carried out in the housing estates. Why can we not make a point of soliciting the views of the residents' representatives beforehand so that the necessary works will be carried out according to the priority agreed upon by themselves? I believe that if we were to do that, then there would certainly be considerably less disputes between the Housing Department and the public housing tenants. As a catchphrase in management circles in foreign countries puts it, "Small is beautiful." The above proposal is something which I think the Housing Authority should reflect upon.
Cleanliness, law and order and management problem are mentioned in the motion. I will concentrate in the rest of my speech on the issues of cleanliness and law and order.
First of all, I will speak on the issue of cleanliness. Keeping the estate clean is one aspect of management. Indeed, one frequent cause of complaint by residents has always been that the standard of service is deteriorating. I think there are two reasons for this. First of all, there is the practice of sub-contracting, which means that the cleaning contractor will sub-contract their work to some cleaning companies. Put in another way, contractors registered with the Housing Authority bid for the cleaning contract and then the successful bidder hires another contractor to do the job at which point the subcontracting cycle repeats itself with the second contractor hiring yet another contractor to do the actual cleaning. In a scenario like this, the workers are of course exploited as their wages are squeezed. Low wages means that they are unlikely to put in as much work as one would like them to and the result is of course poor quality. On the other hand, the Housing Department does not have any control over these cleaning workers and there is no question of effective management of the latter. Given the fact that neither the Housing Authority nor the Housing Department has their own cleaning staff, it is very difficult for them, in the event of a cleanliness problem arising, to get a group of workers to do the required cleaning work on a certain spot. First of all, the cleaning company will be contacted which in turn will liaise with the supervisor who will then instruct some workers to go to that particular spot to do the cleaning work. In this regard, we feel that this practice of sub-contracting is the key factor which accounts for the deterioration in the standard of service. Secondly, in the tender exercise, the guideline adhered to by the Housing Authority is that the successful cleaning company must always be the lowest bidder. An opinion survey was conducted by the Hong Kong Association for Democracy and People's Livelihood in the Sham Shui Po district and the results of the survey were subsequently reflected to the Housing Department. We tried to establish whether there was a better way of cleaning up the rubbish, for example with the use of plastic bags. We discussed with the contractor about this proposal. The contractor did not have any objection to it. However, as it turned out, the proposal was rejected by the Housing Department. Their explanation was that the use of plastic bags would affect the bidding price and would necessitate the complete revision of related prices before calling for another tender. The
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 2 June 1993 3930
rejection by the Housing Department has caused delay in respect of improvement to the situation.
Secondly, I would like to talk about the law and order issue. As we know, the motion mentions the underlying causes of our law and order problem with the purpose of preserving the social stability of Hong Kong and enabling Hong Kong people to have a sense of security. With regard to the community's sense of security and social stability, I am sure we all know that there has been a spate of crimes happening in the housing estates over the past several months. Recently, there have been six cases of rape in which two of the victims were killed. Most of these crimes happened very late at night inside elevators and on the staircases. These crimes are quite frequent in Tuen Mun, though admittedly some of them are committed in quite unique circumstances. But insofar as the design of the housing block is concerned, it is not difficult for us to see negligence was a contributing factor to the crimes which happened. Let us look at the design of an old housing block. It was typically a seven-storeyed building and access was by the staircase. The advantage of this was that residents who were accustomed to taking the stairs were familiar with each other and they were prone to keep their doors open, which in turn was conducive to the development of mutual and ready help. However, the modern housing blocks which are erected nowadays can easily reach 20, 30, even 40 storeys. Access is provided by the elevator which nobody can do without. Residents are far less familiar with each other and it may even happen that one does not know who one's neighbour is. There is no guarantee that people living in opposite flats will know each other. The open-style staircases and elevators are such that the residents have no way of telling whether someone whom they meet on the staircase or in the elevator is also a resident. That is why they worry that the staircase and the elevator may actually be a security hazard. In this regard, we tend to think that if the situation is to be improved, something has to be done in respect of improving the design. The newly completed housing estates should have a similar design as the Home Ownership Scheme estates. Put in another way, the staircase, the elevator and the lift lobby should be equipped with a gate, an intercommunication system and a closed-circuit television. In doing so, it will deter trespassers from blatantly and fearlessly entering the housing estate to commit crimes. On top of that, if security guards can be hired to keep watch on a 24-hour basis, then security will certainly be greatly enhanced. We have conducted a survey in Kwai Tsing and Tuen Mun. We found that over 90% of the residents are quite happy to have these security measures at the cost of a modest rental increase of about $30 to $40 per month. They are prepared to pay for them because in the long run these measures will pay off. So they are in support of such measures
With these remarks, I support the motion.
MR MICHAEL HO (in Cantonese): Mr President, recently cases of rape, indecent assault and other offences have frequently happened in Tuen Mun, causing fear in many residents and disturbing the peace of life in the district.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 2 June 1993 3931
The Housing Authority, in providing accommodations to the public, should not be just providing a flat with four walls and a roof, it should also be a place that is safe to live in. Therefore, the Housing Authority cannot evade responsibility for the deplorable state of law and order in the public housing estates.
It is unacceptable that the Housing Authority should evade the responsibility of installing security systems by applying the "user pays" principle. Since there is a correlation between the building design and the crime rate of the public housing estates, the Housing Authority should improve the building design. Take Tai Hing Estate as an example, we can in fact install iron gates at the subsidiary staircases on the ground floor of the estate buildings. With the add-on feature of intercom systems or the stationing of security guards, the law and order situation at public housing estates will be significantly improved. In April last year, a woman was raped on the staircase at Yau Oi Estate. Since then, seven rape cases have occurred in Tuen Mun in two of which the victims were even killed. And we have not yet caught the culprit or culprits. I urge that the Housing Authority should immediately repudiate this "user pays" principle and undertake the responsibility of installing security systems in public housing estates. I also suggest that Tuen Mun should perhaps be the district where a large-scale pilot scheme in the above regard should immediately be launched. The Authority should procrastinate no more.
I will now turn to the topic of the management of the Home Ownership Scheme (HOS) estates. One of the problems involved is the reasonableness of the percentage of increase in management fee. Such percentage has been persistently higher than the inflation rate, and if this situation continues, I believe that after a few years the management fee of the HOS estates will be equivalent to the rent of the public housing estates. Although the residents of the HOS estates have paid a high management fee, they have in fact no say in matters of management. They have often complained about the low efficiency of the cleaning company, the security company and the building contractor, but the resultant change may only be a change of the names of the companies concerned. The operator and the staff will remain unchanged. With this kind of "smooth transition", the residents will be forced to pay a high price to employ companies which cannot provide satisfactory services. In such circumstances, what kind of a right do the residents have?
When we take a look at the reserve funds of the HOS estates, we will find that there are no objective criteria as to the size of these funds, nor are there any upper limits. Therefore, the authority concerned can put the surplus from the management fee into the reserve fund and continue to raise the management fee significantly in the following year. It seems that the management of these housing estates is a big business with huge profits. The management fee is mainly used, among others, to pay for staff salaries. However, the companies concerned can expand the establishment of the staff in these estates, like increasing the number of senior management staff, without any improvement in the quality of management. Despite the strong opposition from the residents
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 2 June 1993 3932
that such expansions would only add to the redundancy of staff, the companies have nevertheless proceeded with their decisions.
I think that the residents should be given an appropriate channel to take part in the management and to understand its functioning. There should also be sufficient communication and transparency such that the residents can genuinely monitor the companies concerned. Only in this way can we really improve the management of the HOS estates.
Mr President, with these remarks, I support the motion.
5.00 pm
PRESIDENT: I will suspend the sitting for a few minutes.
5.27 pm
PRESIDENT: Council will resume.
MR TAM YIU-CHUNG (in Cantonese): Mr President, more than 2.5 million Hong Kong people are now living in the 550 000 public housing and Home Ownership Scheme (HOS) flats under the Housing Authority. The management of these estates is really an important and sizeable task, given that so many flats and residents are involved. Today's motion seeks to arouse the Government's attention to, and the public's concern over, the problems pertaining to public housing and HOS estates.
Problems arising out of estate mismanagement come to our attention from time to time. Some of them may be rather trifling and technical in nature. Still, they reflect the deficiencies in the management policy. The Housing Authority pursues a management policy that it would keep its management services to the housing estates to a minimum. For this reason, it pays scant attention to resources allocation and quality of management, thus giving rise to many irrational practices.
For example, general estate management and maintenance works are left in the hands of two different departments and there lacks proper communication and co-ordination between them. When the general management department finds that certain public facilities have broken down, it will be unable to receive prompt action from the maintenance department. On some occasions, it takes quite a long time to have some basic public facilities such as street lamps and lifts fixed.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 2 June 1993 3933
Furthermore, the cleansing of housing estates is contracted out to private cleaning services companies at a low price due to insufficient manpower and financial resources. As a result, we find that the hygienic conditions of many housing estates are appalling. Besides, there are serious problems such as illegal parking in the carparks, illegal hawking activities, illegal keeping of dogs and young people occupying vacant units illegally. These problems are rampant. On the face of it, the problem seems to stem from insufficient manpower. But it is in fact closely related to the statutory power of the management staff and their co operation with other government departments.
What is most disturbing is the maintenance of law and order in public estates. The design of public housing estates makes housing blocks easily accessible to everyone. This would invite robbers and sex offenders. However, it seems that the estate management department is at a loss as to how to deal with this problem and the Housing Authority has not been resolute enough in tackling this problem.
Besides, the estate management system is rather rigid. Take for an example, in the transition period when tenants are resettled to make way for redevelopment, the management fails to make proper arrangements to take care of the affected tenants during this particular period and the place turned into a mess. Another example is that no consideration has been given to the population growth and ageing problems in the housing estates when the Housing Department allocates units. The units of old housing estates are small in area. With the increase in the size of family and more grown up children, the living space is becoming more and more inadequate. However, the Housing Department does not take practical measures in its allocation of units to tackle this problem so that residents' plight could be eased. Besides, the electricity supply in the old housing estates usually lags behind the demand. I was told that one of the housing blocks in Sau Mau Ping Estate has power failure for two to three hours at midnight for one-third of the days in a month. The situation looks rather serious. Rigidity in estate management is also reflected in the way tenants apply for permission to do renovation works by themselves. The existing approved contractors system makes the application procedures for self-renovation works very complicated and arduous.
Problems with regard to estate management defy enumeration. I support the motion to urge that the Government conduct a review of these matters. I would also like to call on the people to be more positive in voicing specific problems in estate management and to suggest ways to improve the situation.
With these remarks, I support the motion.
DR HUANG CHEN-YA (in Cantonese): Mr President, more than half of the population of Hong Kong live in public housing estates. As such, the good or poor management of public housing estates is in fact closely bound up with the livelihood of the people. I shall focus my discussion on the privatization of
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 2 June 1993 3934
public housing management, as well as the situation of public housing management within my constituency.
Privatization means reduced government intervention and increased market mechanism. However, in a place like Hong Kong where basic social security is seriously inadequate, privatization no doubt will become an excuse for the Government to "pass the buck" and an equivalent for having "no avenues to air one's grievances". It is true that privatization of market operation may reduce operating costs for the Housing Department, but when only one operator is granted the right to operate, does the Housing Department ever consider the effects of doing so on the commercial tenants and the public? Take for example Wah Kwai Estate in the Southern District, the commercial tenants are only given operating licences but no tenancy agreements, and are therefore left without legal protection provided by the tenancy agreements. Recently, commercial tenants are given only two weeks' notice to renew their licences. There is virtually not sufficient time for them to bargain and to decide whether to leave or stay. They are therefore seized with worries and fears. Furthermore, the rate of increase of market stall rents and market stall management fees varies from 14% to 71%, which gives an average of 33.4%. In this connection, the reply given by the Housing Department indicates that there is no restriction on the rents and the rate of increase of such rents charged by the operator in the sub-letting of stalls. As it is said, what one gets comes, in the final analysis, from one's own self, both the stall operators and the public become the victims. One must understand that as public housing residents usually earn lower income and that shopping arcades inside housing estates all but monopolize the services that are being provided, a continuous rise in prices will only increase the expenses of public housing residents. The Housing Department should require that in sub-letting their stalls, market operators should do so in the form of tenancy agreements so as to safeguard the interests of commercial tenants. In addition, an upper limit should be imposed when increasing the rents in order to avoid stimulating inflation which will in turn lead to a fall in the people's quality of life. The purpose of privatization is no doubt to increase cost-effectiveness, but on the other hand, this will also mean that the livelihood of the general public is not protected.
Another problem brought about by privatization is the fading out of the role of the Housing Department, which becomes blurred and amorphous. When a dispute arises between the operator and the stall lessee, the Housing Department then says this is private business between the stall lessee and the operator and therefore no assistance is needed. In refusing to take up the role of the mediator and arbitrator, is the Housing Department not privatizing market operation completely overnight? This seems to be in serious breach of the principle of evolution in an orderly and gradual manner. More serious though, is such evolution in an orderly and gradual manner heading in the right direction? Is such pattern appropriate? Is such progress reasonable? The Government has never made any public consultation with regard to this problem, but the result is that the Government's commitment is obviously reduced, creating a situation of chaos and disorder in which no one is in charge.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 2 June 1993 3935
When we come to the general problems of public housing management, it is natural to talk about allocation of public housing, which is stated in Chapter One of the Public Housing Management Policy. Take for example the Ma Hang Village Squatters in the Southern District, squatters affected by the clearance programme are originally eligible for "rehousing". At first the Housing Department also promised them they would qualify for in situ rehousing, but later imposed an age limit on single-person and two-person families on grounds of resources. Nevertheless, in the face of strong opposition from the occupants, the Housing Department made a small compromise and is now considering the withdrawal of the age limit on members of two-person families eligible for "rehousing". However, it is extremely unreasonable that a single-person cannot be "rehoused" unless he or she is prepared to share the flat with another person. The Housing Department should not base its housing policy on a resource-led approach and suppress the demand for public housing, so that it is necessary for those people who originally qualify for "rehousing" to wait for over 10 years without yet having the chance of moving into a public housing unit. This is yet another irony in the 40th anniversary of public housing development.
Finally, a word on cleanliness and sanitation. Refuse collection points within housing estates in the Southern District are always piled up with refuse which, not being disposed in time, often results in a stink that reeks to high heaven. The public and private toilets of some of the housing estates frequently run out of flush water supply over the years, and very often residents have to use potable water for flushing. More often than not, the lifts are very dirty and are a source of complaints. To sum up, management problems concerning public housing are numerous. I alone received 571 complaints concerning public housing last year, which is far more than the complaint figures on housing problems received by the Office of Members of the Executive and Legislative Councils in 1990 and 1991, an indication of how serious such problems are in the various districts.
With these remarks, I support the motion.
DR CONRAD LAM (in Cantonese): Mr President, some people say that the Housing Authority is the world's largest landlord since it provides accommodation for some 3 million people. However, our public housing in general is long on quantity but short on quality; it has an impressive outlook but not an equally impressive substance. Public housing estates in Hong Kong, the old type in particular, are shoddily built and poorly managed. The contribution towards the improvement in people's quality of life is superficial. On the issue of public housing, the general public's expectations may be completely at odds with the targets of the Government's policy. People want to improve their living while the Government's major concern may be to appease the public, in the hope that they would support or at least acquiesce in the administration of the Government. As a matter of fact, in Hong Kong where the cost of accommodation is exorbitant, many would be only too happy to be provided with accommodation in return for their minimum acquiescence in the
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 2 June 1993 3936
Government. Public housing is facing growing problems, and due to time limit, I would focus briefly on the aspects of maintenance and decoration.
The quality of public housing of Hong Kong can be reflected by the many complaints lodged by its tenants. As the buildings are getting old, it is necessary to carry out large-scale maintenance works such as wall refurbishment and sewer replacement. Currently, the Housing Authority contracts out such large-scale maintenance works. When the contractors have secured some orders, they would often seek the assistance of sub contractors who, in turn, would find some sub-sub-contractors to do the actual maintenance works. Consequently, it takes a long time from the identifying of problems to the commencement of works. The Housing Authority must have been aware of such practice of contracting and sub-contracting as well as the inconvenience thus caused to public housing tenants. I therefore suggest that the Housing Authority speedily conduct a review on this contract system of public housing maintenance works.
The current practice of the Housing Authority to authorize some decoration contractors to carry out decoration works for newly-built public housing estates is also plagued with problems. The practice has also seriously limited the choice of public housing tenants. As a matter of fact, many complaints were lodged by tenants against the perfunctory performance of these authorized contractors. Despite the fact that mass production would reduce costs, these authorized contractors often charge higher than some smaller contractors not on the list of the authorized contractors. Given such deficiencies, how can the problem on public housing maintenance be easily solved? As a related issue, the Administration claims that the practice of authorizing decoration contractors is geared towards the prevention of triad infiltration. However, if we look at it from a different angle, we would find that the practice would produce very undesirable consequence in that it would indirectly lead to triad infiltration and indeed such cases did happen. Local triad elements would more easily control the decoration works of an entire housing estate since the authorized contractors system enables them to have a more specific and more direct target to approach. Under such circumstances, I suggest that the Administration should review this authorized contractors system as soon as possible.
The above points bring out a serious issue, namely, the rights and privileges of Hong Kong's public housing tenants. Such rights and privileges are not well defined, if there is any at all. In the United Kingdom, the Tenants Charter stipulates that tenants can apply to install or maintain any fixtures in their premises. The Government cannot reject such applications unless they have very sound justifications and rejections can also be appealed against in court. I therefore suggest that the Administration seriously consider the drawing up of a legal document similar to the Tenants Charter to ensure Hong Kong's public housing tenants the rights and privileges.
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 2 June 1993 3937
Mr President, my 10 odd years' service in district board and area committee let me know that hygiene, management, law and order and so forth make up the majority of the complaints concerning public housing. The Housing Authority therefore has to take a serious view of these issues and must not keep on evading its responsibilities.
Mr President, with these remarks, I support Rev FUNG Chi-wood's motion.
MR LEE WING-TAT (in Cantonese): Mr President, since 1985, in the eight years in which I have served as an elected district board member, I have never attended a meeting of residents of public housing and Home Ownership Scheme estates in which there was no grievance in respect of estate management. Indeed, just last night, I attended a residents' meeting of about 50 people. After several rounds of discussion, I asked residents attending the meeting to give a mark for the standard of estate management. I asked them to mark out of 100. And just as I expected, none of the residents gave it a 50 mark or above. The marks given ranged from 0 to 30.
Admittedly, the above survey was not scientific by any means. However, I understand from my close contact with the residents that the attitudes are much the same in other estates. I can quite safely say that standards have fallen so sharply that the present state of affairs is absolutely deplorable insofar as the management of public housing is concerned. Just now, many colleagues have criticized many aspects of the poor management of public housing, including the extremely unsatisfactory state of sanitation, rampant illegal parking, tardy maintenance work, frequent disruption of flushing water supply, pet-keeping policy, and most importantly, the extremely bad attitude of the management staff, particularly staff members of non-professional grades and low-ranking officers. As a matter of fact, these are longstanding problems, many of them have been around for over 10 years now. Many district board members have said to me that even when we are talking about something as trivial as changing the light bulb in the public corridor, it is going to take about three weeks before a new bulb can be fixed, that is, following the complaint of a resident. If the complaint is lodged by a district board member, then probably this can be done in two weeks. If the complainant is a member of the Legislative Council, then face will be given and the whole thing may be completed expeditiously in a week's time. The above example is by no means an exaggeration. It is just a fact of life for residents in public housing.
Mr President, the Housing Department is the chief co-ordinator when it comes to the management of public housing estates. It is responsible for contracting people to do the cleansing, repair and maintenance works and to provide security services. The Housing Department as a co-ordinator with government background is basically different from other companies providing services on the free market. It is a government department and it functions with the characteristics of a monopoly. Three differences can be identified:
HONG KONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL — 2 June 1993 3938
(1) The standard of service provided has no consequence for the service provider. Put in another way, it has no bearing at all on the pay package and promotion prospects of the Housing Manager or any management officer;
(2) It is a complete monopoly situation in which the tenant is still obligated to turn to the Housing Department which is the chief service co-ordinator, however bad the standard of service is. There is no way the tenant can switch;
(3) The comments of the tenant as the end user and his/her evaluation of the management standard will have no bearing at all on the performance or the promotion prospects of the service provider. The result of this is, of course, that while residents have every right to lodge their complaints, the estate management office staff have every right to conduct their business as usual.
The present state of our public housing estate management has already developed in such a way that it is reminiscent of the state of affairs in our old socialist motherland. The motto which prevailed was, "You may exert yourself or choose not to work at all but whatever you do, you get paid the same $36". The reform of public housing estate management is urgent because it is long overdue. Reform may be carried out along the following lines:
(1) Management of the housing estates can be completely privatized. This will enable the tenants as end users to acquire, through the working of the free market mechanism, the service which will give them value for money;
(2) The present system should be reformed to enable tenants to enjoy the right of participation in the management of their own estates so that they will have a say in matters concerning the promotion, posting and dismissal of the highest ranking officer.
In view of our scepticism about the price implication of privatization of a social service, I would like to propose that we should start by reforming the existing system. The sort of reform which I favour would be more along the lines of subjecting the highest ranking officer in estate management, that is, the Housing Manager, to the supervision of tenants such that he/she will be a manager who can just as well be dismissed (for dereliction of duty). I have four proposals to make as follows:
(1) A tenants committee which is made up of delegates from mutual aid committees should be set up in each housing estate. The tenants committee should be a body charged with the responsibility of monitoring the estate office. It should be empowered to transfer or even dismiss a Housing Manager who is proven to be incompetent,