40 HONGKONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL 7TH MAY, 1914.
PRESENT:―
HIS EXCELLENCY THE GOVERNOR, SIR FRANCIS HENRY MAY, K.C.M.G.
HIS EXCELLENCY MAJOR-GENERAL F. H. KELLY, C.B. (General Officer Commanding Troops).
HON. MR. CLAUD SEVERN (Colonial Secretary).
HON. MR. J. H. KEMP (Attorney-General).
HON. MR. E. D. C. WOLFE (Colonial Treasurer).
HON. MR. A. F. CHURCHILL (Director of Public Works).
HON. MR. C. MCI. MESSER (Captain Superintendent of Police).
HON. MR. WEI YUK, C.M.G.
HON. MR. H. E. POLLOCK, K.C.
HON. MR. E. A. HEWETT, C.M.G.
HON. MR. E. SHELLIM.
HON. MR. LAU CHU PAK.
MR. M. J. BREEN (Clerk of Councils). Minutes
The minutes of the last meeting were confirmed.
Financial Minutes
THE COLONIAL SECRETARY, by command of H.E. the Governor, laid on the table Financial Minutes Nos. 13 to 16, and moved that they be referred to the Finance Committee.
THE COLONIAL TREASURER seconded, and the motion was agreed to.
Financial
THE COLONIAL SECRETARY, by command of H.E. the Governor, laid on the table the report of the Finance Committee (No. 4), and moved its adoption.
THE COLONIAL TREASURER seconded, and the motion was agreed to.
HIS EXCELLENCY―In the report of the Finance Committee which has just been adopted, item No. 12 is connected with the building of the New Law Courts. That sum, I am sorry to say, was not adequate. Still, the remuneration of the architects could not be ascertained until the accounts were finally closed. The usual custom is that they are paid by a commission of 3 12 per cent., which amounted to somewhere about $1,000. I thought it just as well to mention that.
Papers
THE COLONIAL SECRETARY, by command of H.E. the Governor, laid on the table the following papers:―Report of the Captain Superintendent of Police for the year 1913; report of the Registrar of the Supreme Court for the year 1913; report of the Police Magistrates Courts for the year 1913; report of the British Section of the Kowloon-Canton Railway for the year 1913.
Nursing Staff at Government
Civil Hospital
HON. MR. H. E. POLLOCK, in accordance with previous notice, asked:―
1.― When was the decision arrived at to increase the staff of the Medical Department by two Probationers instead of by two Sisters; between what dates were the Probationers advertised for, and in what newspapers?
2.― Has it been found by the Government, as the result of experience, that it is an easy matter to engage Probationers possessing satisfactory qualifications? Do not such Probationers, as a rule, require, during the first year of their engagement, to be carefully supervised by the Sisters?
HONGKONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL 41
3.― In the year 1913 how many Military women and children were cared for in the Government Hospitals, and what fees did the Government receive in respect of such cases? Has there been any, and, if so, what increase in the Government Nursing Staff, and when, since the Government took over the care of such cases from the Military Authorities?
4.― How many Sisters are there now on the Nursing Staff at the Government Civil Hospitals? Are two of such Sisters liable to be sent down to the Kennedy Town Hospital to nurse small-pox and other infectious diseases, and are two more of such Sisters attending for the greater part of their time to the nursing of private cases in different parts of the Colony?
5.― How many Probationers are there now on the Government Nursing Staff, and how many were there on the 23rd
Hospitals in 1913, and $8,881.88 was received in fees on their account. These fees leave no profit to the Government. There has been no increase in the Nursing Staff since the taking over of the Military cases. The admission of women and children of the Garrison has not materially increased the work of the Sisters, as the following figures will show:―
Daily Average of Patients
Under Treatment
Civil Hospital.
1908 ......................... 88.6
1909 ......................... 90.2
1910 ......................... 92.0
1911 ......................... 91.2
1912 ......................... 94.8
1913 ......................... 85.6
Maternity Hospital.
1908 ......................... 2.61
1909 ......................... 3.8
1910 ......................... 3.7
October, 1913, and the 23rd April, 1914, respectively?
6.― When will the vacancies, which were caused by the marriages of two Sisters in April, 1914, be filled up? How long before such marriages did the Government know that they would take place, and has the Government taken
1911 ......................... 4.07 1912 ......................... 4.57 1913 ......................... 7.2 Victoria Hospital.
1911 ......................... 14.24 1912 ......................... 10.35 1913 ......................... 14.04
Excluding infants
any and what steps to fill up such vacancies and when?
7.― What is the maximum number of beds which a Sister on night duty has attended to since the 1st May, 1913?
THE COLONIAL SECRETARY returned the following answers:―
Question 1:―On the 19th August, 1913. Two Probationers were advertised for in the Hongkong Daily Press, and in the Hongkong Telegraph, in each case from 11th July, 1913, to 17th July, 1913. In the same papers three Probationers were advertised for from the 22nd to 28th November, 1913. Five Probationers were advertised for in the South China Morning Post from the 6th to 12th March, 1914.
Question 2:―(a) Until recent years a fairly good supply of Probationers was forthcoming. (b) Yes.
Question 3: ― 208 Military women and children were cared for in the Government
Question 4: ― This question evidences considerable misapprehension. The Staff of Sisters at the Government Civil Hospital borne on the Estimates is 9. At Kennedy Town Hospital it is 2. At Victoria Hospital it is 2. There are in addition in residence at the Government Hospital 2 Private Nursing Sisters. When the Sisters for Kennedy Town Hospital are not required then they do duty at the Government Civil Hospital. When the Private Nursing Sisters are not out nursing they are available for duty at the Government Civil Hospital. At the present time there are 8 Sisters of the Government Civil Hospital Staff on duty at the Government Civil Hospital and also 2 Private Nursing Sisters who do not happen to be out nursing. There are three Sisters on duty at the Victoria Hospital. There are none at Kennedy Town Hospital. The Private Nursing Sisters are engaged at private nursing for about 9 months in the year each. One of them is thus available for 6 months in the year at the Government Civil Hospital. The Kennedy Town Hospital Sisters are for the greater part of the year employed at the Government Civil Hospital.
42 HONGKONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL
Question 5:―(a.) Two. (b.) Four. (c.) Two.
Question 6:―One vacancy was filled by the arrival of a Sister on the 30th April, 1914. The second vacancy has been filled and the Sister is expected to arrive at the end of June.
Question 7:―It is not possible to ascertain from the statistics kept the largest number of occupied beds which a Sister on night duty has attended to since the 1st of May, 1913. The daily average number of patients in the Civil Hospital in 1913 was 85.6, excluding maternity cases, while two Sisters were on night duty during that period, except during the month of August, when two fairly senior Probationer Nurses each did a fortnight of night duty instead of a Sister. Two Sisters for night duty has been the recognised number for the last 10 years.
HON. MR. H. E. POLLOCK then, in accordance with notice previously given, moved the following resolution:―
That the Governor-in-Council be requested to nominate (under the Commissioners Powers Ordinance, 1886), five Unofficial Justices of the Peace as Commissioners for the purpose of instituting, making and conducting an enquiry as to the sufficiency in numbers, efficiency, and organisation of the Nursing Staff at the Government Hospitals and as to their terms of service, pay and allowances.
HON. MR. POLLOCK, in moving the resolution, said―Your Excellency, I beg leave to move the motion of which I have given notice, and as hon. members have it in printed form before them I trust that it may be taken as read. Sir, this motion is a continuation, so to speak, of a request which was made by my hon. friend representing the Chamber of Commerce, when he was speaking on behalf of himself and the other unofficial members of the Council in his speech relating to the Estimates, on October 23rd, 1913, and I think, Sir, that it may be confidently stated that if my hon. friend had then been given the information which was supplied at the last meeting of this Council by the Colonial Secretary, that the request which my hon. friend put forward on the 23rd of October last, for the appointment of a committee of five unofficial Justices of the Peace to inquire into the nursing staff
question at the Government Civil Hospital, would there and then have been pressed home. The fourth question which I put at the last meeting of the Council and the answer which was given to it by the Colonial Secretary are both of them so important that I will crave the indulgence of this Council to read them now. My fourth question was:―
"Was any written representation sent in by the Nurses on the Staff of the Government Civil Hospital to the Principal Civil Medical Officer last summer upon the subject of the insufficiency in numbers of the Nursing Staff at that Hospital? Will the Government lay such written representation upon the table of this Council? Has any answer been sent to such written representation? If so, will the Government lay such answer upon the table of this Council? What steps, if any, have been taken, and when, to remedy such insufficiency?"
To that question the Colonial Secretary replied as follows:―
"No such written representation was made to the Principal Civil Medical Officer by the Sisters (they are not called Nurses); but under date of the 2nd of July last the Superintendent of the Government Civil Hospital addressed a letter to the Principal Civil Medical Officer setting forth on behalf of the Sisters reasons why they considered their number should be increased by two. The Superintendent recommended the increase, as did the Principal Civil Medical Officer. The Governor, after investigation, recognised that an increase in staff was necessary, but decided that it should take the form of two additional probationers. This decision was communicated to the Head of the Department, and provision was made accordingly in the Estimates for the current year. In February of this year the Governor enquired whether the extra probationers had been engaged, and he was informed that it had not been found possible to engage them. In these circumstances the question of the reorganization of the staff of sisters and probationers was again taken up and is being considered at the present time. It is not considered that any useful purpose would be served by laying papers on this subject on the table."
HONGKONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL 43
Now that answer discloses a very strange state of affairs, for it shows that at the beginning of July last, long before our very long and trying summer had come to an end, the strain and stress of work amongst the sisters of the Government Civil Hospital was such that they took a strong and very unusual step in petitioning for an increase to be made in their numbers, giving definite reasons for asking for that increase, but reasons which the Government has thought fit to withhold from the cognisance of this Council and from the cognisance of the outside public. That request of the sisters did not stand alone, for it was backed up and supported by the recommendation of the two leading Government Medical Officers, namely, the Superintendent of the Government Civil Hospital and the Principal Civil Medical Officer. And one would have imagined that only one answer could possibly have been given to the request of the sisters, backed up as it was by the recommendations of the two leading Government officers―a telegram promptly sent home to the Colonial Nursing Institute for the dispatch of two sisters from England. We are now told, however, that nothing of that sort was done, and that your Excellency decided to disregard that request of the sisters and the recommendations of the medical officers of the Government and, instead to engage two probationers in the place of two trained and qualified nurses from home. I sent in a question, Sir, to be answered at this meeting, asking for what reason that decision was arrived at, and although that question has been ruled out, I am still not without hope that some explanation of that decision will be forthcoming this afternoon, and that it may be given for the benefit of the members of this Council and the outside public. It is, of course, cheaper to obtain probationers than trained nurses, but in this matter efficiency ought surely to have been preferred to economy, and surely the promptest action ought to have been taken to remedy the evil instead of the periodical and wholly fruitless advertisements for probationers which are set out in the answers given to me to-day to my first question. The net result of what has been done, Sir, is that ten months of time has been absolutely and entirely wasted, and we find ourselves now, at the beginning of another hot season, with its liability to recurrent epidemics, no further forward than we were at the beginning of July last, when this request was made by the sisters and backed up by the leading Government Medical Officers. It seems to be admitted, Sir,
although one has not had a long time to study it, in answer to my question 2 that probationers do require a considerable amount of supervision during their first year of employment as probationers, and therefore, Sir, I wholly fail to see how, under these circumstances, two probationers could have been considered, fairly and properly, an efficient substitute for two trained nurses out from home. With regard to the two sisters having recently married, we are informed in the answers given to my questions just now, that the place of one of them only has been filled up, and so far as I can see the Government has avoided answering part of my sixth question on that subject altogether. Part of my sixth question was, "How long before such marriages did the Government know that they would take place?" and not the smallest attempt has been made on the part of the Government to answer that question, and it is not unfair to assume that no attempt has been made because no attempt can reasonably be made to show why they did not take the prompt steps which they ought to have done to fill both these vacancies as soon as they knew that they were likely to occur. I should very much like to know, Sir―we are told that the second vacancy will be filled by a sister who is expected at the end of June―when it was known that the second sister was going to be married, and what steps were taken to fill up the vacancy; whether steps were taken by letter or telegram to fill her place There is an attempt made, Sir, in answering my fourth question to suggest that it is put under considerable misapprehension. I listened very carefully at the time of the answer to that question, and I fail to realise on what strength that statement is made. It seems to me that a good deal of the answer to that question is wholly and entirely outside the scope of that fourth question. As regards the number of probationers in the Government Civil Hospital, apparently it is very short. Apparently there are two probationers in the Government Civil Hospital out of a total of seven contemplated in the Estimates for 1914 on the 23rd of October
44 HONGKONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL
last. I am wrong. There were four on the 23rd of October last and there were two on the 23rd of April, 1914. In other words, Sir, apparently during the last six months, instead of having seven probationers, our number of probationers has dwindled down from four to two. With reference to the answer to my seventh question, I should have thought it would have been possible to answer it in some reasonably intelligent fashion and not in the way in which it is answered. If the maximum number of beds could not have been given, I should have thought at all events that some approximate figure could have been given. I am inundated with a whole number of figures in connection with the military women and children, but I must confess, Sir, that notwithstanding the fact of my being swamped with these figures at a moment's notice, being a mere ordinary man, I fail to see how an extra 208 women and children could fail to give some extra work to the nursing staff. The answer given to-day is practically to the effect that such a trifling matter as that cannot possibly make any difference at all. I can only say that I fail to appreciate the force of that argument. There is another point, Sir, which I think ought to be mentioned in connection with the work of the Government Civil Hospital, and that is the fact that of late years plague cases which used to be dealt with at the Kennedy Town Hospital are being treated at the Government Civil Hospital. And these cases, Sir, with the liability of the unfortunate patients who suffer from plague to become delirious, are calculated obviously to cause a special anxiety, and to impose a special strain upon the nursing sisters. There is also the fact, Sir, suggested in the speech made by my hon. friend representing the Chamber of Commerce on the 23rd of October last, that sisters were engaged in maternity cases at the same time as they were engaged on other cases. That is surely a matter which urgently calls for remedy, especially as the maternity hospital is situate at some considerable distance from the Government Civil Hospital itself. Sir, I very much deprecate the way in which my questions have been answered in this matter. I think it is very much to be regretted that in this as in many other cases the Government of this Colony has treated the unofficial members in an adverse and hostile spirit instead of taking the unofficial members into their counsel and co-operation. Sir, in making this motion and in
pressing it, the unofficial members are pursuing what they consider to be the cause of justice and right The overworking of our employees is at all times to be deprecated, and more especially is it so when applied to women who are conscientiously engaged in a trying climate in combatting disease and in nursing the sick. To these women the public of the Colony owes a deep debt of gratitude, and it is in the hope of discharging part of that debt, by the lightening of their labours, and by improving the conditions under which they serve, that this present motion is now being made.
HON. MR. HEWETT―Your Excellency, I have very much pleasure in seconding the motion brought forward by my hon. and learned friend opposite. The motion, as we are all aware, is practically following up a request made by me at the request of my unofficial colleagues six months ago or more, in reply to the budget speech last autumn. Perhaps it would be as well to emphasise the point, because I doubt if it is really thoroughly understood that in bringing forward this motion, in speaking as the unofficial members have spoken on the question of the nurses of this Colony, we are not only speaking on behalf of ourselves, but we have a very large following in the Colony to support us, and to justify the motion now brought forward. I am quite satisfied in my own mind that we are thoroughly justified in pressing this home, and I can only regret that the Government up to the present moment have not taken, not only the unofficial members, but the whole of the ratepayers of the Colony into their confidence. I think this should be done. I think the Government has been remiss in this matter. Knowing as they should that there was this feeling, they should have told us exactly what their reasons were for taking the steps they have. Had they done so, the moving of this motion would have been unnecessary. It is comparatively recently that we have had this demand for trained lady nurses from home. It was practically an innovation up to the last quarter of a century, but we must deal with things as they are, and not as they were. It may possibly be urged that this is a small Colony: it is not very wealthy,
HONGKONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL 45
I admit, and it may probably be said that we have a very satisfactory number of nurses, and cannot afford any more. That is a debateable point. I think we can and we ought to. That is not the question. As to the number of nurses, we have to deal with a population of so many hundreds of thousands of people. The point is that we require trained nurses from Home, not local probationers who, as we know, are practically of little use for certainly many months after they first take office. We are prepared to pay anything in reason for this necessity―not luxury, absolute necessity; exactly in the same way as wireless, which was unknown a few years ago, is now an absolute necessity to modern shipping. If it can be proved to the satisfaction of the Colony that we cannot afford more nurses, that we have got to rest content with the small staff we have, then I can only say that the whole reorganisation of the work of that staff should be considered. We believe we are amply justified in stating that these good ladies are greatly overworked. We know the number of patients who are treated in the hospitals, and we know the number of nurses, and we quite realise that they cannot possibly satisfactorily grapple with the amount of work they are supposed to do. Now, I am not speaking without special knowledge. It has been my fate to have had very considerable experience of nurses and nursing homes. I spent many months at two very well-known nursing homes in London, where women were constantly relieved, undertaking comparatively few cases, and some of them only single cases. They were working night and day under my personal observation, and I know that, even, under the most favourable conditions, the work was so arduous that they constantly required recreation. The nurses here have other things to contend with. They have a tropical climate, suffer troubles, illnesses and petty annoyances in the way of prickly heat and so forth, which they would escape at Home. This is all added to the fact that they are dealing with a great number of cases at the same time; I believe I am right in saying, far too many cases, and the holidays are, comparatively speaking, few and far between. I maintain that the Government have no right to work their employees to such an extent, certainly not ladies, delicate women engaged in an arduous profession and in a hostile climate. It is wrong, absolutely wrong, and if you cannot see your way to increase the staff, then you must reduce their labours. It is making a farce of the thing to ask women to undertake more work than they can possibly carry out, and then turn round and say, "This is our nursing staff, as good as any
other Colony of the same size has, and you must be satisfied." That is not the way to look at it. I think the Government should take the whole community fully into their confidence. Let us discuss this question, not in a hostile spirit, but working for the best results to the Colony, and I am quite sure, Sir, that any reasonable proposition your Excellency puts before us we shall be glad to accept. We do consider, in the first place, that the staff should be increased, and, if that is not possible, that the work of the nurses should be decreased.
HIS EXCELLENCY―Gentlemen, I am sorry I cannot accept this motion for a very simple reason. The number of recommendations to increase the staff which are forwarded every month in the year to the Governor by each department are very numerous, and if I were to appoint a committee to inquire into each one of these with which I did not agree, well, the busy time of unofficial members of this Council, and of civilians outside Government departments who apparently desire to sit on such committees, would be occupied to an extraordinary extent. Now, it is the rule of the Government service that if the head of a department wants an increase of staff he sends forward a recommendation, backed by solid facts, in time for provision to be made in the estimates of the succeeding year after there has been time to get the sanction of the Secretary of State to the increase in the personnel. This recommendation was made in the middle of last summer, beyond the time which I have stated. When you come to examine the facts set out in the answers to the questions of the hon. member you are faced with the conclusion that there has been no great increase of cases treated in the hospitals; no extensions to the hospitals of any material size; nothing to indicate why, suddenly, in the middle of the year 1913, it is considered necessary to increase the staff of the hospitals. There have been many able heads of the Medical Department. Dr. Atkinson himself was the man who introduced the Nursing Staff from Home. For several years before he left the Colony the staff stood as it is now. He never made any recommendations for an increase. Therefore, when I received the recommenda-
46 HONGKONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL
tion, backed as it was by officers of the department―but that is nothing extraordinary, for some heads of departments are only too ready to recommend increases in their staff―it was not surprising that I should consider it necessary that some justification should be given me for such an increase. I considered that an increase in the probationers' staff would be sufficient. I made that decision on the 11th August, and left the Colony on leave on the following day. Probably, if I had remained here, and it had been represented to me that it was difficult to get probationers, then I might have made some other disposition. As it was, remarks made by the hon. member who represents the Chamber of Commerce when the Estimates were under consideration were brought to my notice when I returned. I inquired whether probationers had been obtained, and as they had not, then I proceeded to thoroughly investigate the conditions of the staff. Well, the conclusion I arrived at was that while the staff was absolutely adequate for the work it has to do, there was no provision for absences during leave. That is in accordance with the policy of this Government; no department is supplied with extra members for filling vacancies caused through leave. I also found a matter which had not been, but required to be, dealt with, and to which I had myself drawn attention before I went on leave; that was the treatment of maternity cases by nurses from general wards. That is a point which ought to be remedied. Taking these two points into consideration, I came to the conclusion since the last meeting of the Council that I would recommend to the Secretary of State an increase of three sisters as a temporary measure pending further investigation as to the disposition of the staff. One of these nurses has been engaged, and we are looking for two more. I trust that that information will be satisfactory to hon. members, and it seems to render quite unnecessary the elaborate committee which they wish to have appointed.
HON. MR. POLLOCK ― Does your Excellency mean three sisters in addition to the one coming out at the end of June to supply the vacancy of one of the sisters who got married?
HIS EXCELLENCY―Yes, and I think it would be useful if I just say a word about the work of these sisters. I have the greatest
sympathy for them. I have suffered a great deal myself; I passed perhaps eight years of my life in bed when a boy, being nursed, so I know what good nursing means. Now, these sisters here do eight hours' duty out of the twenty-four; that is to say, they have sixteen hours of leisure. At the London Hospital the nurse on day duty goes on at 7 in the morning and remains on duty till 9.30 p.m., with an interval of three hours off duty out of that time, and the nurse on night duty is on for twelve hours at a spell. In addition, the nursing staff at the London Hospital do the whole of what I may call the menial services; they have no other help or assistance of any kind, they have to wash patients, make the beds, deal with slops, bed pans, etc., carry food and medicines; in fact everything is done by the nursing staff with the exception of scrubbing floors, cleaning stoves, making fires and washing crockery. Now, the sisters here are assisted by no less than 22 ward boys in the Government Civil Hospital and two amahs, and in the Maternity Hospital by five amahs. The whole of the drudgery work is done by this part of the staff, and in addition there is a staff of coolies to do the housemaid work, so the plea of overwork won't hold water. There is another point I would like to mention, and that is, that as far as I can make out there is not any hospital in any Crown Colony of the size of the Civil Hospital that has the same amount of European nursing staff. I have been in the Colony of Fiji, which has a very large medical department, and certainly we had nothing like the white staff there. The same obtains in Ceylon, and in Singapore and the Straits Settlements. The Empire of India would be ruined if they tried to run their hospitals the way we run ours. Therefore I have been forced to the conclusion that some reorganisation is necessary. I am going to make, with the approval of the Secretary of State, an increase in the staff for the specific purposes mentioned, but I would inform hon. members that in my opinion we must place a limit to the number of sisters doing the ordinary work of the hospital. It is not at all necessary that the Childar pirates should have the tender care of white nurses; something less expensive ought to be good enough for them. The hon. member who proposed the resolution took some exception to the answers to these questions. Really I cannot understand why. I took a good deal of trouble
HONGKONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL 47
over them myself, and I thought really I had given him all the information he asked for. He referred to question 6. We told him we had got one nurse already on the spot, and another coming―Miss Bone―but I am sorry to say she is delayed through having to pass an extra examination. The successor to Miss Gourley was asked for on the 21st January, and the successor to Miss Wilkes, now the wife of our much esteemed chief clerk, was applied for on the 13th February, and I don't think we could have done it much sooner. Regarding question 4, I must say as I read it there is a great misapprehension. The hon. member was talking about sisters being liable to be sent to Kennedy Town Hospital, and of others being liable to be sent out private nursing. No such thing. The sisters sent out private nursing are quite separate. I was extremely sorry to hear the peroration of the hon. member in which he accused the Government of treating the questions of unofficial members in an adverse and hostile spirit. It would pain me very much if I felt that there was any justification for it, but I know my hon. friend on the left (the Colonial Secretary) is the personification of politeness, if I may say so, and he is always ready to give any information he can: and as for myself, I think I have always shown myself ready to help unofficial members all I possibly could, but I hate to waste my own time and the time of others, and I think if you leave this matter in the hands of the P.C.M.O., who has had experience at home and in East Africa, the hon. member on my left, who has had experience in the Federated Malay States and the Straits Settlemen's where there are very large hospitals, and my humble self, who have had experience in the Colony of Fiji, where they have a medical department which can show Hongkong some points, hon. members may rest assured the matter will be properly, sympathetically and adequately dealt with, with due regard to economy.
HON. MR. POLLOCK―I ask for a division to be taken on this motion.
A vote was then taken, and resulted as follows:―
AYES: ― Hon. Mr. Wei Yuk, Hon. Mr. Hewett, Hon. Mr. Shellim, Hon. Mr. Pollock, Hon. Mr. Lau Chü Pak.
NOES:―The General Officer Commanding,
the Colonial Secretary, the Colonial Treasurer, the Director of Public Works, the Captain Superintendent of Police, the Attorney General.
The resolution was declared lost.
Obscene Publication Ordinance
THE ATTORNEY-GENERAL moved the first reading of a Bill entitled, "An Ordinance for more effectually preventing the Publication of Obscene Books, Pictures and other Articles."
THE COLONIAL SECRETARY seconded, and the Bill was read a first time.
The "Objects and Reasons" attached state that the object of this Bill is to introduce into the Colony the provisions of the Obscene Publications Act, England, 20 and 21 Vict. c. 83, which empowers Magistrates and Justices of the Peace to issue warrants to search for obscene books, pictures, and other articles, and, after giving parties who may be interested an opportunity of being heard, to order the destruction of any obscene articles so seized. Such a power does not exist in this Colony at present.
Protection of Women and Girls
Ordinance
THE ATTORNEY-GENERAL moved the second reading of a Bill entitled, "An Ordinance to amend the Protection of Women and Girls Ordinance, 1897." In doing so he said―This Bill, Sir, and two other Bills which appear on the agenda for to-day are rendered necessary by the International Convention on the question of the white slave traffic, which was entered into at Paris in the year 1910. The ratification of that convention by Great Britain was deposited in August, 1912, and this Colony has also declared its accession to the convention. That accession lays upon the Colony an obligation to amend its legislation dealing with the matter to bring it up to the standard set by the provisions of the convention, and this Bill amends the local law in four respects with that object in view. In the first place it raises from 18 years to 20 the age limit of girls subject to what may be called the offence of simple procuration, without any aggravating
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circumstances such as fraud or violence. The age in England is 21. Here it is 18, but in order to bring the law of the Colony into agreement with the convention, this Bill proposes to raise the age to 20 years. In the second place, an alteration is made in the law relating to the offence of living on the earnings of prostitution. At present that offence is proved, either by direct evidence that the male person is living on such earnings, or that he is living with a prostitute or is habitually in her company and has no visible means of subsistence. The present Bill, which is taken from the English Act of 1912, removes the necessity of proving the absence of visible means of subsistence, so that it will be sufficient to prove that the male person charged is habitually in the company of, or lives with, a prostitute. The Bill will also enable the offence to be proved in a third way, by proof that the male person has exercised control, direction or influence over the movements of a prostitute in such a manner as to show that he was aiding, abetting or compelling her prostitution with any other person or generally. It also provides that a female person shall be guilty of an offence if she exercises such influence over a prostitute as to show that she is aiding and abetting prostitution. The fourth respect is to introduce for the first time the penalty of flogging for the offence referred to in Section 17 of the Ordinance on a second conviction.
HON. MR. HEWETT ― Does a second offence mean a proved offence in a Court of law?
THE ATTORNEY-GENERAL―Yes, on a second offence and when there is a previous conviction.
THE COLONIAL SECRETARY seconded, and the Bill was read a second time.
Council then resolved itself into a committee of the whole Council to consider the Bill clause by clause.
On Clause 31,
THE ATTORNEY-GENERAL said ― I propose to repeal Section 31 of the principal Ordinance and substitute a new section as follow:―
31 (1).―Whenever any person is convicted
either summarily or before the Supreme Court of any offence against the provisions of Section 4 or Section 7 it shall be lawful for the Magistrate or Court to direct that in addition to the punishment hereinbefore prescribed the offender if a male be flogged.
(2).―Whenever any person is convicted of any offence against the provisions of Sections 3, 5, 6, 8, 9, 10, 11, 16, 17, 19 or 20, if it is proved that the offender has been previously convicted either summarily or before the Supreme Court of an offence against provisions of the same or any other of the said sections it shall be lawful for the Magistrate or Court to direct that in addition to the punishment hereinbefore prescribed the offender if a male be flogged.
HON. MR. HEWETT―Does that mean now, Mr. Attorney, that these people can be flogged for a first offence?
THE ATTORNEY-GENERAL―Only in the case of offences against the two sections dealing with simple procuration and indecent assault. That condition is made to bring our law up to the standard of the English law.
HON. MR. HEWETT―I am not sure, even now, if I clearly understand the Bill. It is so difficult to prove a case against these men who are living on prostitution that I think flogging should be permissible in each case on a first offence. I don't quite understand whether the Attorney-General covers that point There is a stream of these creatures passing through the place who procure young girls and are living on their earnings, and they should be flogged.
THE ATTORNEY-GENERAL ― Flogging cannot be inflicted for a first offence of living on the earnings of prostitution.
HON. MR. HEWETT―I should like to see the law made so that the Magistrate could himself order flogging in every instance. Conditions here are so different. This class of pimp, a low class blackguard, goes through a place living on prostitutes' earnings. He is here perhaps a few days or weeks, then goes to American territory or French territory and returns. We ought to have much stricter rules to deal with these people, and if your Excellency sees your way to amend the section I shall be very glad.
HONGKONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL 49
HON. MR. POLLOCK―I wish to support the hon. member who has just spoken. I think we ought to make allowance for local conditions and amend the law accordingly.
HON. MR. HEWETT―I don't think this is a case where we should follow English law. Perhaps your Excellency would be willing to hold the Bill over to consider the question?
HIS EXCELLENCY―As a matter of fact we soon get rid of these men. We don't allow them to abide here.
HON. MR. HEWETT―You merely deport them and allow them to go somewhere else and carry on the same game, whereas they should get a good flogging.
HIS EXCELLENCY ― I don't think that would stop them. The Bill has received careful consideration at Home, and although I have no sympathy with those brutes, I think its powers are sufficient.
HON. MR. HEWETT―Such a man should be flogged when you have got him; he deserves it.
HIS EXCELLENCY ― This is simply a matter of bringing the Ordinance into line with the Home law. We have strong powers, and will use them. I don't think the present Superintendent of Police will allow them to find this a happy hunting ground. Are you satisfied to leave it?
HON. MR. HEWETT―If that is your view I am afraid I will have to, but I am sorry you take that view.
On Council resuming,
THE ATTORNEY-GENERAL reported that the Bill had passed through committee, and moved that it be read a third time.
THE COLONIAL SECRETARY seconded, and the Bill was read a third time and passed.
The Magistrates Ordinance
THE ATTORNEY-GENERAL moved the second reading of the Bill entitled, "An Ordinance to amend the Magistrates Ordinance, 1890." In doing so he said―This is also consequential upon the adherence of the
Colony to the Convention, and gives power to flog for a first offence under Section 4 of the Protection of Women and Girls Ordinance. This amends the Magistrates Ordinance to give a Magistrate power to inflict that punishment.
THE COLONIAL SECRETARY seconded, and the Bill was read a second time.
Council then went into committee to consider the Bill clause by clause.
On Council resuming,
THE ATTORNEY-GENERAL reported that the Bill had passed through committee, and moved that it be read a third time.
THE COLONIAL SECRETARY seconded, and the Bill was read a third time and passed.
The Flogging Ordinance
THE ATTORNEY-GENERAL moved the second reading of a Bill entitled, "An Ordinance to amend the Flogging Ordinance, 1903." In doing so he said―This Bill gives power to the Supreme Court to inflict the penalty of flogging upon a male person convicted of a procuration offence under Section 4 of the Protection of Women and Girls Ordinance.
THE COLONIAL SECRETARY seconded, and the Bill was read a second time.
Council then went into committee to consider the Bill clause by clause.
On Council resuming,
THE ATTORNEY-GENERAL reported that the Bill had passed through committee without amendment, and moved that it be read a third time.
THE COLONIAL SECRETARY seconded, and the Bill was read a third time and passed.
The Airships Ordinance
THE ATTORNEY-GENERAL moved the second reading of a Bill entitled, "An Ordinance to amend the Airships Ordinance, 1912." In doing so he said―This Bill is introduced under instructions from the
50 HONGKONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL
Secretary of State, and is intended to give power to compel airships which fly over the Colony to descend upon a signal being given, and it gives power to the Governor to prescribe places where such aircraft may land.
THE COLONIAL SECRETARY seconded, and the Bill was read a second time.
Council then went into committee to consider the Bill clause by clause.
On Council resuming,
THE ATTORNEY-GENERAL reported that the Bill had passed through committee without amendment, and moved that it be read a third time.
THE COLONIAL SECRETARY seconded, and the Bill was read a third time and passed.
The Public Lighting Ordinance
THE ATTORNEY-GENERAL moved the second reading of a Bill entitled, "An Ordinance to provide for the public lighting of the Colony and for the protection of the appliances used in connection therewith." In doing so he said―The object of this Bill, Sir, is to extend to the whole Colony the provisions with regard to lighting which at present by an Ordinance passed in 1856 apply only to the City of Victoria. It seems advisable that the protection afforded by that Ordinance to lighting appliances should be extended to street lamps and other lighting appliances throughout the Colony.
THE COLONIAL SECRETARY seconded, and the Bill was read a second time.
Council then went into committee to consider the Bill clause by clause.
On Council resuming,
THE ATTORNEY-GENERAL reported that the Bill had passed through committee without amendment, and moved that it be read a third time.
THE COLONIAL SECRETARY seconded, and the Bill was read a third time and passed.
The Stamp Ordinance
THE ATTORNEY-GENERAL moved the second reading of a Bill entitled, "An
Ordinance to amend the Stamp Ordinance, 1901." In doing so he said―The object of this Bill, Sir, is to make it obligatory on the person who gives a receipt to cancel the stamp before he delivers the receipt out of his hands. At present there is no such provision in our law, and the same stamp might be used over again.
THE COLONIAL SECRETARY seconded, and the Bill was read a second time.
Council then went into Committee to consider the Bill clause by clause.
On Council resuming,
THE ATTORNEY-GENERAL reported that the Bill had passed through committee without amendment, and moved that it be read a third time.
THE COLONIAL SECRETARY seconded, and the Bill was read a third time and passed.
The Dentistry Ordinance
THE ATTORNEY-GENERAL moved that Council go into Committee on the Bill entitled, "An Ordinance to provide for the registration of qualified Dental Surgeons and otherwise to regulate the practice of Dentistry."
THE COLONIAL SECRETARY seconded, and the motion was agreed to.
On Council resuming,
THE ATTORNEY-GENERAL reported that the Bill had passed through committee.
HIS EXCELLENCY ― It is proposed to leave this Bill over till next meeting. Council will adjourn till this day week.
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FINANCE COMMITTEE.
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A meeting of the Finance Committee was then held, the COLONIAL SECRETARY presiding. The following votes were passed:―
Scavengers' Quarters
The Governor recommended the Council to vote a sum of $670 in aid of the vote Public Works, Extraordinary, Hongkong, Buildings, Temporary Quarters for Scavengers.
HONGKONG LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL 51
THE CHAIRMAN ― The departmental Estimate for this work was $7,000, and the amount expended up to the end of last year was $4,124.69, and this year $1,000 is provided, but there was work done last year which was not paid for to the amount of $669.46, and in making the Estimate of expenditure for this year no provision was made for that work by an oversight. Therefore it is necessary to provide a sum of $670 now.
Miscellaneous
The Governor recommended the Council to vote a sum of $4,850 in aid of the vote Public Works, Recurrent, New Territories, Miscellaneous, Typhoon and Rainstorm Damages―Mainland and Islands in Northern District.
THE CHAIRMAN ― There were several works damaged by typhoon last year in the New Territory and Northern Islands. One was the four span bridge at Taipo, which was broken down and was not completed till April this year. The sum required for work done this year was $3,516.60. There were breaches made by typhoons in the Pingshan and Au Tau Roads, and the value of earth-work done in September, 1913. The total was $4,819.61, and the sum asked for is $4,850 to be on the safe side.
Compensation for Resumption
of Land
The Governor recommended the Council to vote a sum of $6,092.34 in aid of the vote Public Works, Extraordinary, Compensation for the resumption of land and houses at Tytam Tuk Village in connection with Tytam Tuk Water Scheme, Second Section.
THE CHAIRMAN ― This vote is for compensation to villagers. It has taken sometime to come to an agreement with them, but now that an agreement has been reached it is hoped that the village will be cleared away as soon as possible.
HON. MR. HEWETT―In addition to the compensation, are you giving them Crown land elsewhere?
THE DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS ― Yes, at Chaiwan.
HON. MR. HEWETT―Are they all going bodily to the same place?
THE DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS ― Yes.
Compensation for Cattle
Destroyed
The Governor recommended the Council to vote a sum of $832.43 in aid of the vote Miscellaneous Services, Compensation for Cattle destroyed.
THE CHAIRMAN―This vote is on account of an outbreak of rinderpest among the cattle of the French fathers at Pokfulam. Several cattle died, and it was found necessary to destroy certain healthy animals to prevent the spread of infection as they had been in contact with the others. Under the Ordinance, half the value of healthy animals has to be paid. It was really necessary to do this very quickly in order to avoid a bad epidemic. Half of the value of the sick cows was allowed, and the whole of the value of healthy ones.
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