OFFICIAL RECORD OF PROCEEDINGS
ミ猭Ы穦某筁祘タΑ魁
Thursday, 18 April 1996
せるら琍戳
The Council met at half-past Two o'clock
とだ穦某秨﹍
MEMBERS PRESENT
畊某
THE PRESIDENT
THE HONOURABLE ANDREW WONG WANG-FAT, O.B.E., J.P.
畊独Щ祇某O.B.E., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE ALLEN LEE PENG-FEI, C.B.E., J.P.
腜某C.B.E., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE SZETO WAH
畕地某
THE HONOURABLE EDWARD HO SING-TIN, O.B.E., J.P.
︙┯ぱ某O.B.E., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE RONALD JOSEPH ARCULLI, O.B.E., J.P.
甃ㄎ瞶某O.B.E., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE MRS MIRIAM LAU KIN-YEE, O.B.E., J.P.
糂胺祸某O.B.E., J.P.
DR THE HONOURABLE EDWARD LEONG CHE-HUNG, O.B.E., J.P.
辩醇翬某O.B.E., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE ALBERT CHAN WAI-YIP
朝岸穨某
THE HONOURABLE CHEUNG MAN-KWONG
眎ゅ某
THE HONOURABLE CHIM PUI-CHUNG
糕蚌┚某
THE HONOURABLE MICHAEL HO MUN-KA
︙庇古某
THE HONOURABLE EMILY LAU WAI-HING
糂紌某
THE HONOURABLE LEE WING-TAT
ッ笷某
THE HONOURABLE ERIC LI KA-CHEUNG, J.P.
產不某J.P.
THE HONOURABLE FRED LI WAH-MING
地某
THE HONOURABLE JAMES TO KUN-SUN
襖略ビ某
THE HONOURABLE HOWARD YOUNG, J.P.
法У地某J.P.
THE HONOURABLE ZACHARY WONG WAI-YIN
独岸藉某
THE HONOURABLE LEE CHEUK-YAN
某
THE HONOURABLE CHAN KAM-LAM
朝挪狶某
THE HONOURABLE CHAN WING-CHAN
朝篴篱某
THE HONOURABLE CHAN YUEN-HAN
朝胞糭某
THE HONOURABLE ANDREW CHENG KAR-FOO
綠產碔某
THE HONOURABLE PAUL CHENG MING-FUN
綠癡某
THE HONOURABLE CHENG YIU-TONG
綠模磁某
DR THE HONOURABLE ANTHONY CHEUNG BING-LEUNG
眎▆某
THE HONOURABLE CHEUNG HON-CHUNG
眎簙┚某
THE HONOURABLE DAVID CHU YU-LIN
Χギ棚某
THE HONOURABLE ALBERT HO CHUN-YAN
︙玊く某
THE HONOURABLE IP KWOK-HIM
腑瓣辆某
THE HONOURABLE LAU CHIN-SHEK
糂ホ某
THE HONOURABLE AMBROSE LAU HON-CHUEN, J.P.
糂簙煌某J.P.
DR THE HONOURABLE LAW CHEUNG-KWOK
霉不瓣某
THE HONOURABLE LAW CHI-KWONG
霉璓某
THE HONOURABLE LEE KAI-MING
币某
THE HONOURABLE LEUNG YIU-CHUNG
辩模┚某
THE HONOURABLE BRUCE LIU SING-LEE
郭Θ某
THE HONOURABLE MOK YING-FAN
馋莱某
THE HONOURABLE NGAN KAM-CHUEN
肅繟某
THE HONOURABLE SIN CHUNG-KAI
虫ヲ昂某
THE HONOURABLE TSANG KIN-SHING
纯胺Θ某
DR THE HONOURABLE JOHN TSE WING-LING
谅ッ闹某
THE HONOURABLE MRS ELIZABETH WONG CHIEN CHI-LIEN, C.B.E., I.S.O., J.P.
独窥ㄤ军某C.B.E., I.S.O., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE LAWRENCE YUM SIN-LING
ヴ到圭某
MEMBERS ABSENT
畊某
THE HONOURABLE MRS SELINA CHOW LIANG SHUK-YEE, O.B.E., J.P.
㏄辩睶┥某O.B.E., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE MARTIN LEE CHU-MING, Q.C., J.P.
琖皇某Q.C., J.P.
DR THE HONOURABLE DAVID LI KWOK-PO, O.B.E., LL.D. (CANTAB), J.P.
瓣腳某O.B.E., LL.D. (CANTAB), J.P.
THE HONOURABLE NGAI SHIU-KIT, O.B.E., J.P.
ぶ城某O.B.E., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE LAU WONG-FAT, O.B.E., J.P.
糂祇某O.B.E., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE FREDERICK FUNG KIN-KEE
毒浪膀某
DR THE HONOURABLE HUANG CHEN-YA, M.B.E.
独綺笽某M.B.E.
THE HONOURABLE HENRY TANG YING-YEN, J.P.
璣某J.P.
DR THE HONOURABLE SAMUEL WONG PING-WAI, M.B.E., F.Eng., J.P.
独篿某M.B.E., F.Eng., J.P.
DR THE HONOURABLE PHILIP WONG YU-HONG
独﹜グ某
DR THE HONOURABLE YEUNG SUM
法此某
THE HONOURABLE CHRISTINE LOH KUNG-WAI
嘲糠某
THE HONOURABLE JAMES TIEN PEI-CHUN, O.B.E., J.P.
バ玊某O.B.E., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE CHOY KAN-PUI, J.P.
讲蚌某J.P.
THE HONOURABLE LO SUK-CHING
霉睲某
THE HONOURABLE MARGARET NG
艷祸某
PUBLIC OFFICERS ATTENDING
畊そ戮
THE HONOURABLE MRS ANSON CHAN, C.B.E., J.P.
CHIEF SECRETARY
︽現Ы某ガ現朝よネC.B.E., J.P.
MR GORDON SIU KWING-CHUE, J.P.
FINANCIAL SECRETARY
癩現拷琖ネJ.P.
MR IAN WINGFIELD, J.P.
ATTORNEY GENERAL
現放猭紈ネJ.P.
CLERK IN ATTENDANCE
畊
MR RICKY FUNG CHOI-CHEUNG, SECRETARY GENERAL
毒更不ネ
PURSUANT TO STANDING ORDER 4AA, HIS EXCELLENCY THE GOVERNOR, THE RIGHT HONOURABLE CHRISTOPHER FRANCIS PATTEN, ATTENDED TO ADDRESS THE COUNCIL AND TO RECEIVE QUESTIONS.
羆服碸﹚眃ネㄌ沮穦某盽砏材4AA兵砏﹚畊穦某セЫ璓勉钡借高
PRESDIENT: Members please remain standing for the Governor.
CLERK: His Excellency the Governor.
PRESIDENT: The Governor will address the Council on his visit to London.
GOVERNOR: Mr President, I visited London from 10 to 12 April and Belfast from 12 to 13 April.
I had useful discussions with the Prime Minister and the Deputy Prime Minister, and two meetings with the Governor of the Bank of England, during which we discussed the strength of the Hong Kong economy and the guarantees of Hong Kong's autonomy in fiscal, economic and trading matters after 1997. I had meetings with Foreign Office officials and also gave three major speeches.
In my meeting with the Prime Minister, we followed up the subjects that were raised during his important visit to Hong Kong last month.
We discussed the actions that had been taken since then on visa-free access, right of abode and passports for war widows. We will be pressing for as many countries as possible to provide liberal visa regimes for Hong Kong Special Administrative Region (SAR) passport holders and we hope that we will be able to see countries declaring their hands in the coming months. Obviously the progress we make on this issue depends in part on China's position on right of abode. We have noted the comments made by Director LU during his visit to Hong Kong. These underline the need for Chinese officials to join us in expert talks as soon as possible, so we can all be clear about what the detailed arrangements will be.
On passports for war widows, I very much hope that we will be able to see a bill coming forward before the end of this Parliamentary Session. This will help to put people's minds at ease and be a solid indication of Britain's commitment to resolve that issue.
I also discussed with the Prime Minister my forthcoming visit to the United States to discuss the renewal of Most Favoured Nation (MFN) status for China, and we are obviously working closely with the British Government on that issue.
The Prime Minister had been concerned to hear about the decision to establish a provisional legislature, announced by Chinese officials after the recent meeting of the Preparatory Committee in Beijing. He noted that this decision, coupled with a number of remarks about the Civil Service, had alarmed civil servants and the community as a whole. We both hope that we will hear more in the way of reassurance from Chinese officials in the coming weeks and months.
We also discussed the position of Vietnamese migrants in Hong Kong. During his meeting in Bangkok with other Asian and European leaders, the Prime Minister had a good meeting with the Prime Minister of Vietnam. As a result of that meeting, an official from the Foreign Office went to Vietnam to discuss how we could speed up the repatriation of Vietnamese migrants. That visit was followed by one by Mr Jeremy HANLEY which has produced good results. I hope that we will now see an acceleration in the rate of return of Vietnamese migrants.
We discussed a number of other matters as well, including Hong Kong's economy and Britain's continuing relationship with and commitment to Hong Kong after next summer.
I also visited Northern Ireland, where I stressed the attractions of Hong Kong to Northern Ireland investors and vice versa.
In all, it is a productive visit. I am now happy to take Honourable Members' questions.
PRESIDENT: Members may now put questions on this topic as well as on the other five topics which have been notified to Members. A Member who has asked a question may for the purpose of seeking elucidation only ask a short follow-up question. A show of hands please. Dr LEONG Che-hung.
DR LEONG CHE-HUNG: Thank you, Mr President. Mr President, I would like to take this opportunity, with your permission, of course, to thank the Governor on behalf of the House, and I am sure you yourself will join Members too, Mr President, for his effort in securing a speedy and fair appeal for the two Hong Kong residents, Mr AU Wing-cheung and Mr WONG Chun-ming, who were detained in the Philippines. We all know that they have now been released and have returned to their very relieved families.
May I, Mr President, with your permission, also ask the Governor to convey our gratitude to the Prime Minister and Foreign Secretary and all those in the British Government who have helped in this particular direction.
Mr President, many of us in this Council have done much, also, to help to bring this result about and I am sure we are all very happy to see this satisfactory outcome including, even, the return of some $8,000 to both Mr AU and Mr WONG, and that the rule of law has been maintained.
If you will give me the permission, Mr President, I would also like to ask the Governor a question, if you do not rule me out of order. Should this or similar events occur, after the change of sovereignty, to Hong Kong people travelling with a British National (Overseas)(BN(O)) or British Overseas Citizen(BOC) passport, what would the British Government's action be, if any, and how could we see the whole process being initiated?
GOVERNOR: I am grateful to the honourable gentleman for that expression of gratitude. I know that all our discussions together take place in that warm feeling of exchanges of gratitude from both sides, and I am sure this session will continue in that spirit.
I think it is fair to say that what we saw in the case of Mr AU and Mr WONG was very good teamwork between this Council and it would be invidious to single out individual Members but I know that there were many who took a very close personal interest in the case and went to considerable trouble to help Mr AU and Mr WONG the Hong Kong Government and I was pleased that I was able to raise the issue directly when I visited the Philippines, with President Ramos, last December and the British Government as well. It was raised by a number of ministers and officials on a variety of visits to the Philippines and meetings with Philippines ministers.
There are two points I would just like to add on that particular case. The first is that having met Mr AU and Mr WONG myself, I am sure that like many Honourable Members I have been struck by their extraordinary fortitude in bearing the difficult conditions of the last few years with such strength of character. I was very impressed by my meeting with them and with their families. They can, of course, be absolutely certain that they will get all the help that is required as far as welfare benefits and other matters are concerned, as they re-establish themselves and prepare to re-launch themselves on what I hope will be successful business and professional careers.
Secondly, I think a reason why we are all pleased that this has at last been cleared up is that we do have a very good relationship with the Philippines. There is a large Filipina community here in Hong Kong which is making such a substantial contribution to our own well-being and welfare, and this issue, I think, was one of the very few difficulties in an otherwise excellent relationship and I would like to express my gratitude to President RAMOS for his part in clearing it up.
The position as far as after 1997 is concerned is, I hope, clear and was, I think, made clear by both the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary during their visits. Those who travel on a British passport will have all the consular protection after 1997 that they could expect today. I hope that they will also be able to count on co-operation between the future sovereign power and the United Kingdom which provides them with the consular protection. I hope that that is the case and I am sure that Chinese officials would want to stress that it would be the case if they were sitting here in my position which perhaps one day they may.
PRESIDENT: Mr Albert CHAN.
朝岸穨某拜羆服ネ璣瓣纯竒そ渤の碈ざ矗翠ぃ現ǎの叫腀莱赣莉眔玴ぃ筁緗キネ翠戳丁翠ぃぶ叫腀珹ミ猭Ы某叫腀砆妮摥繴嫁ゴ临狿-
暗ㄇ-
セ⊿Τ暗筁ㄆ薄妮セ⊿Τ玴硂ㄇ叫腀羆服ネ叫硂眎酚妮陪摥叫腀繴硂贺彩忌︽琌荡癸⊿Τ惠璶┕κぱず临穦Τ叫腀︽笆叫拜羆服ネ︙絋玂妮穦痷痷タタ笵篈玴硂ㄇ叫腀τぃ琌ㄏノ彩忌も琿癸硂ㄇも礚臟叫腀
GOVERNOR: Perhaps the Council will allow me to set out my views on this subject at some length.
We have in Hong Kong a free and open society where people have the right to express their views, where they have the right to assemble and to demonstrate if necessary. We have a first class Police Force which, I think, manage to hold the balance between the rights of those who wish to protest and the rights of the rest of the community in an extraordinary firm but fair way.
I want to place on record now my gratitude to the police for the way they have handled events in the last few days and for the way they have handled events over the last years.
Hong Kong is an extremely tranquil community. We have not seen many events like those of the last few days in my four years in Hong Kong. And when there are demonstrations or protests, they are handled with extremely good humour and good sense by our police very often, young men and women who recently joined the Force. Let me give an example. It is within all our knowledge that the headquarters of the New China News Agency (NCNA) is sometimes a focus for political argument and discussion. In 1994 and 1995, there were in all 139 meetings in the vicinity of the front entrance of the NCNA. There were nine marches to the NCNA. In all that time, with all those demonstrations, there was only one arrest. I think that is a tribute to the police and I have to say I think it is a tribute to the way in which, by and large, people put forth their views in Hong Kong, even when they feel strongly about them and even when they feel that they have to put those views in a demonstration or in a march.
We come to the events of last weekend and I want to say one thing which is pretty obvious straightaway. I think the euphemism is the "united front press" have claimed that the Governor of Hong Kong, that I was responsible for the demonstrations and the arguments and those sad pictures that flashed around the world of people burning tyres and people marching. It is just another of the fabrications that we get from Wen Wei Po and others. I suspect that if they ever started being nice about me, I would have reason to think I was doing my job badly. It is only a matter of time, I can assure the Honourable Member, that the NCNA or those "united front newspapers" will accuse me of being responsible for the demonstrations in 1989. It is, of course, complete and utter nonsense. I do not want in any way to ever excuse breaches of the law or rowdy behaviour, because, in my view, arguments should always be carried on within the law and should always be carried on in as civilized a way as possible. But I do not think that those who refuse to listen should be very surprised if other people raise their voices, and that is what I am afraid we have seen in the last few days. I repeat, this is a very tranquil community. It is a community the politics of which are extraordinarily moderate and it takes quite a lot to push people in Hong Kong into behaving in an immoderate way. It takes quite a lot to push them into raising their voices.
Let me offer one piece of advice and I take it from Ta Kung Pao, the edition of 12 March, which reported extensively a speech by a Member of the Politburo, Mr LI Ruihuan, who noted how important it was to allow people to have their say in relation to Hong Kong. That is what he was talking about quite explicitly and he quoted Chairman MAO. Now I do not want to comment on the context in which the Chairman's remarks were made. It is not my part to play the role of historian now, but what he said was this: "the heavens will not fall even if we allow people to speak their minds otherwise the heavens will surely fall sooner or later."; in other words, if you do not allow people to speak their minds. An open and plural society should respect people's rights to speak their own minds, but of course it must insist that they do that within the law. That is what our police ensure happens. They have all my sympathy for the pressure that they have been placed under in recent days.
朝岸穨某拜畊ネ讽礛и-
瞶秆荡场だ牡叭常琌糹︽-
戮砫の场だ牡叭常暗眔禫˙碞禫ぃ逼埃ㄇ牡叭癸拜肈の锣跑τ甡┤︑︗ぃ玂┮硂琿戳丁穦疭辅玂臔いよ﹛穦瞷┮弧初眖硂酚陪ō蔼筄せ玂癸窯翠ㄏノ猌硂琌ぃゲ璶叫拜羆服ネ︙癡ボ妮矪瞶硂ㄇ叫腀︽笆穦┮弧玴叫腀τぃ穦垒ノ猌
GOVERNOR: I do not want the Honourable Member, or anybody else, to think that I do not have strong views about the importance of policing demonstrations in a firm but fair way. But I have to say that I do not think the Commissioner of the Royal Hong Kong Police Force or his senior or junior officers need instructions from me about how to handle these matters. I think they handled them conspicuously well. I think they handled them with good sense. I think they handled them with good humour and I think they have managed to handle them, most of the time, with dignity.
I repeat what I have said before. I have been the Governor of Hong Kong for four years. We have had remarkable social harmony during that period, despite the fact that we have had arguments on very important issues. I can look around this Chamber and see Honourable Members who have been vigorously on the other side of the debate. But we have had social harmony and we have had social harmony because we have had an open dialogue. If you try to exclude people, particularly those who can point to the fact that they represent the majority of opinion in Hong Kong, from the debate and the discussion about their own future, then you are going, and I borrow again from Mr LI Ruihuan, to risk social disharmony. You are going to risk a perpetuation of instances in which public officials feel obliged to leave meetings by the back door. I have never in four years left anywhere in Hong Kong by the back door and I never will.
The people in Hong Kong are extremely law abiding. The people in Hong Kong are decent and fair-minded. The people of Hong Kong want to make a success of 1997. The people of Hong Kong would like to hear from Director LU and his senior colleagues.
Just let me make this additional point. I am delighted that this evening Director LU will be seeing the Chief Secretary. I hope that he sees the Chief Secretary on many future occasions. I hope that he sees other Secretaries and members of the Administration. I would like to see him going to our hospitals with the Secretary for Health and Welfare. I would like to see him going to our schools with the Secretary for Education and Manpower. I would like to see him going to our public housing estates with the Secretary for Housing. If Chinese officials would do that, even though they will sometimes have to receive a petition or listen to people saying things that they do not much care for, they will find that the people of Hong Kong are extremely kind-hearted, warm-hearted and wish to ensure that Hong Kong remains as successful after 1997 as it is today. There is nothing in Hong Kong that anybody should be anxious about or frightened about.
PRESIDENT: Mr David CHU.
MR DAVID CHU: Mr Governor, I have a question regarding the provisional legislature. I hope you do not answer the question by giving me a Chairman MAO quotation.
Regardless of our personal preferences, do you agree that at this point in time, the establishment of the provisional legislature is a certainty? And if you agree, then would this Government recognize and co-operate with the provisional legislature so that its work can be better integrated with that of the Government and this Council, thereby helps with a smooth transition?
GOVERNOR: I promise not to give the Honourable Member a quotation from Chairman MAO. But what he says about a smooth transition reminds me very much of the story of the man who punched somebody else on the jaw and then blamed the other fellow for hurting his hand with his chin, because the threat to a smooth transition comes from those who say they will dismantle this Legislative Council, elected by the largest number of people who have ever voted in Hong Kong's history, elected fairly and freely, entirely in line with the Joint Declaration and the Basic Law.
Whether or not this Legislative Council is dismantled, I repeat what the British Foreign Secretary has said, that the proposal to dismantle it is reprehensible and unjustifiable. There is no justification under the Joint Declaration and the Basic Law for dismantling it. We have had a tissue of fabrications suggesting that somehow the arrangements for electing this Legislative Council were not in line with the sacred texts. Nobody, as the honourable gentleman will know perfectly well, has ever been able to demonstrate that.
The only thing which is true is that the Chinese officials did not like the arrangements for electing this Legislative Council. And let me dwell for a moment on that point. We all know, Legislative Council Members with experience on the Executive Council know, Legislative Council Members who were here in 1992 and 1993 know perfectly well, that the reason that discussions on electoral arrangements broke down was that our side Hong Kong Government, the British Government refused to accept arrangements, refused to connive at arrangements, which would have specifically excluded some Members of this Council from a future Legislative Council solely because of their views, and which would have attempted to dilute the number of pro-democracy politicians in the Legislative Council in future by the sort of arrangements that were made.
Now, we refused to go along with that. What Chinese officials are now doing is asking the Preparatory Committee to endorse precisely those sort of arrangements. And I do not think the 13 Members of this Legislative Council, who it appears are prepared to go along with that, should be surprised if other Members of this Legislative Council and other members of the community, and the international community, find that offensive. I do not know how Honourable Members can justify that.
The honourable gentleman asks about our attitude to the provisional legislature, if there is one. There is only one Legislative Council constitutionally in Hong Kong before 30 June 1997. There can only be one Legislative Council in Hong Kong. If there is a provisional legislature, it may have some constitutional or legal position in China. But before 30 June 1997, it has no constitutional or legal position here in Hong Kong. It cannot make laws, though I concede this Chinese body could make recommendations.
The Joint Declaration is entirely clear on the point. I draw the Honourable Member's attention to Article 30 of the Joint Declaration which underlines who is responsible for the administration of Hong Kong until 30 June 1997 and which makes it clear that the Government of China should co-operate with us in our responsibilities for administering the territory.
So that is my position: there is one Legislative Council in Hong Kong while I am Governor and that is the Legislative Council here. And anybody who dismantles that, anybody who seeks to set up another Legislative Council, will have to justify that and will have to tell people why it is morally, politically and legally acceptable.
MR ALLEN LEE: Mr President, a point of order.
PRESIDENT: Mr Allen LEE.
MR ALLEN LEE: The Governor said that under his Governorship there is one Legislative Council. Yes, it is true. Yet the provisional legislature is the provisional legislature after 1 July 1997 and that is when the Governor will have left Hong Kong. Let us not confuse the issue that the provisional legislature is here before 1 July 1997. It may be elected before 1997, but it is to make laws after 1997.
GOVERNOR: Well ......
PRESIDENT: Mr Governor, please hold on a minute. Mr LEE, you have not raised a point of order. I am not here to rule on law. I am here to rule on order only. But you have slipped in a question.
GOVERNOR: I assume that that was a point of information. What we have just heard from a member of the Preparatory Committee is that no provisional legislature would operate before 30 June 1997. That is what the honourable gentleman has said. It is a confirmation, of course, of the position under the Royal Instructions, the Letters Patent and the Joint Declaration, and I am delighted to hear it.
MR ALLEN LEE: Mr President, can I make one statement?
PRESIDENT: Mr LEE, I am sorry.
MR ALLEN LEE: I just want to clarify this point, a very important point which the Governor said.
PRESIDENT: But I cannot let you ask the question because it is Mr David CHU's turn, not your turn. You raised a point of order and I ruled that was not a point of order but I allowed your question to slip through. So I should not allow you to ask a supplementary.
Mr CHU, do you have a short follow-up?
MR DAVID CHU: Yes. If the provisional legislature is constituted some time before 1 July 1997, which I believe is a reasonable assumption, would this Government, as I stated in the original question, recognize and co-operate with this body, Mr Governor?
GOVERNOR: The honourable gentleman is talking about a body which may have some legal status in China but has no legal or constitutional position in Hong Kong. That is undeniably the case. So if the honourable gentleman is talking about winding up this body and if he is talking about putting something in its place, he had better explain why that is legally justified and why it is morally justified. Let me say this, there is no reference to a provisional legislature in the Joint Declaration. There is no reference to a provisional legislature in the Basic Law. There is no reference to a provisional legislature in the National People's Congree (NPC) decisions of 1990 and 1994. At present, as I understand it, the arguments about a provisional legislature rest on the assumption that the NPC decisions give the Preparatory Committee carte blanche. I think that is a slightly worrying argument and a slightly dubious argument, but it is not for me to say what is or is not legally justified so far as the provisional legislature is concerned a point made very well the other day by Mr Denis CHANG. All I am saying is that there is only one Legislative Council here in Hong Kong before 30 June 1997. Only one. And that is the Legislative Council the Executive Council is going to work with and that is the Legislative Council which the Government is openly accountable to.
PRESIDENT: Mr James TO.
襖略ビ某拜畊ネミ猭Ы穦砆"╊反"既ごゼ笵瞷竒Τ盢︽現Ыㄇ璶舅玥╊反︽現Ы某赋地膚〆穦щ布觅ΘΘミ羬ミ猭穦τ︽現Ы某窥狦伦玥そ秨ボΘミ羬ミ猭穦Τ猭瞶ㄌ沮硂ㄢ某ē︽陪笻璉翠┎瞷癸羬ミ猭穦ミ初の玥叫拜羆服ネ硂ㄢ︗某Τ笻は︽現Ы栋砰璽砫硂琌羆服ネ┮绊璶玥︓ㄓ逼┶ㄇㄣΤチ種膀娄某秈︽現Ы叫拜羆服ネ琌糴硂玥τ糴祘琌竒ㄏ硂龟㎡琌ぃ︽現Ы某Ыず龟︽"Ыㄢ"琌-
ㄤいΤ琌ら疭︽現跋荐皑┮羆服ネ┤㎡︽現Ы某琌莱赣蝴臔翠痲玡矗硂ㄢ︗某ē︽琌籔硂玥Τ┮牟
GOVERNOR: Let me, in these confidential surroundings, (Laughter) be very honest with the honourable gentleman. I was a member of two British Cabinets. I have a good deal of personal experience of the application of the principle of collective responsibility. Therefore the honourable gentleman has never and will never hear large numbers of lectures from me on the subject. I know that it is a principle which has to be applied with a degree of propriety by those who are collectively responsible and good sense by whoever is primus inter pares, and that has always been the position and will remain the position.
Yes, we do have a position of collective responsibility in the Executive Council and it is exercised with, I think, the tolerance and generosity of spirit which are necessary in order to have as broadly based an Executive Council as possible which I believe to be in the best interests of Hong Kong. Honourable Members will know that I deliberately chose an Executive Council which represented all shades of opinion here in Hong Kong. I hope that some of its Members even represent the broad aspirations of the Honourable Member. Well, there are going to be one or two Members of the Executive Council, if I may say so, who will be broken-hearted by the feeling that they do not represent the Honourable Member there. It is a broadly based Executive Council and I intend to ensure that it stays that way. I could hardly crack the whip and behave like the Spanish inquisition over the Executive Council when I have said and feel very strongly that others should be a little more open-minded and generous of spirit in the way that they deal with disagreement and argument.
Having said that, the position of the Executive Council and the Government is absolutely clear and it is the position which I set out earlier and it is the position which others like the Chief Secretary and the Financial Secretary and senior officials have set out on other occasions. There is only one Legislative Council. It is the one which sits here and was elected here last autumn. And the Executive Council and the Government will work with it until 30 June 1997.
襖略ビ某拜羆服ネ穦踞み禫τ硂兜玥ご膥尿糴杠︓琘祘穦瞷︽現Ы某栋砰玵跑戳笻はㄇミ初叫拜羆服ネ瞷硂祘琌竒盢玥糴︓繧娩絫㎡
GOVERNOR: No, I do not think I have relaxed the principle to the extent of being risky. I think I have applied it in my customarily sensible and civilized way. I believe in open discussion and debate. I think I have helped, with some Members of this Council, to extend that important aspect of a free society here a little bit in Hong Kong and I certainly do not intend cracking the whip unnecessarily either with my colleagues in the Administration or with those whose advice I take in the Executive Council.
I think if the Honourable Member looks back he may find in history rather more examples of Executive Council Members speaking out for themselves in years past than there have been in the last four years. But what I have said about collective responsibility does not mean that the principle does not still apply. It has to be implemented in a sensitive and sensible way. That is how I will continue to do it and I hope that we have as broadly based an Executive Council as long as possible because I think, particularly at this difficult and challenging period for Hong Kong, it is helpful to have as broad a base of advice as I can possibly get.
PRESIDENT: And be fairly tolerant of the wets too?
GOVERNOR: And be tolerant of the ......?
PRESIDENT: Wets.
GOVERNOR: Wets, whips, tolerant of everybody.
PRESIDENT: Mr NGAN Kam-chuen.
肅繟某拜羆服ネ翠羆服癸舦瓣 い瓣 ゼㄓ疭跋羬ミ猭穦у蝶琌続讽㎡穦窽ゎ蔼﹛籔羬ミ猭穦㎡
GOVERNOR: The provisional legislature has nothing to do with me. If Chinese officials want to set one up as a Chinese institution, then it would be impertinent of me to involve myself in it. All I am saying to the honourable gentleman is that it has nothing to do with the Government of Hong Kong between now and 30 June 1997. If Chinese officials, or others, wish to make preparations for the position after 1997, then that is their matter. But the provisional legislature does not have a constitutional position in Hong Kong. If it has a legal position at all, that is for Chinese officials to justify. But I repeat, it has nothing to do with me.
肅繟某拜狦盢ㄓ钡ヴ㏑疭跋現┎ヴ﹛斗籔羬ミ猭穦穦璶―-
勉瞷翠現┎戮叭㎡
GOVERNOR: I do not understand what the honourable gentleman means about them working with the provisional legislature. What is the honourable gentleman suggesting that the provisional legislature will do? Is he suggesting that before 30 June 1997 it will pass laws? It cannot. What is he suggesting? What happens after 1 July 1997 is not my business, though I have an interest in it.
PRESIDENT: Mr SZETO Wah.
畕地某拜羆服ネ讽ミ猭Ы舅ㄆ叭〆穦籔現┎﹛癚阶セЫセ某ヴ戳現┎﹛癸и-
弧и-
ヴ戳ぃ﹚琌羆服ネΤ舦繦秆床セЫ叫拜羆服ネせるら玡穦赣ら┪赣らぇ玡秆床セЫ皌羬ミ猭穦Θミ㎡
GOVERNOR: Certainly not.
畕地某拜セЫㄇ某ぃ┋硊ョΤㄇ夯┮-
ヴ戳琌ぃì安現┎﹛羆服Τ舦秆床ミ猭Ыㄒ弧и-
ヴ戳ぃ琌硂琌单まノêㄇぃ┋硊┪夯ヴ戳ぃìㄓ靡и-
ヴ戳ぃ琌硂呸胯妓抡㎡
GOVERNOR: I do not think the logic I am about to offer the honourable gentleman is ridiculous and I hope he will not think it ridiculous either. Honourable Members are elected to this Council for four years and it is desirable that they should be able to serve their four years. But nobody has ever suggested they have a legal entitlement, as it were, a four-year contract. They do not.
One reason why they have not in the past and do not now has nothing to do with 1997 and it is the most important reason of all. For example, the Hong Kong Governor could, I suppose, under the Royal Instructions and the Letters Patent, dissolve the Legislative Council and call for new elections. In those circumstances, he would not feel obliged to pay everybody for the two years or three years or three-and-a-half years of service in the Legislative Council which they had been denied by an election.
In the United Kingdom, we have five-year Parliaments, but nobody has an entitlement to be paid as an MP for five years. It is exactly the same principle and, I repeat, basically has nothing to do with 1997.
PRESIDENT: Mr Howard YOUNG.
MR HOWARD YOUNG: Mr Governor, during your trip to London, you raised the question of travel documents and of course right of abode which is linked to it, and I agree it is an issue which is imminent. It appears that this issue, now, is being tackled through a very, perhaps should I say, unique way by the Chinese Government, of rather than doing things with the Basic Law, but tackling it by some other sort of legal mechanism with regard to the Chinese nationality law.
Now although, Mr Governor, you have called for discussions on these issues to be taken up with China, you have done so for some time and there is still no result. But I believe that the National People's Congress is very shortly going to debate this explanation or amendment or whatever to the nationality law which will become legally effective as Chinese Law.
If there is no route through diplomatic channels, will you consider perhaps another channel, say the Preparatory Committee members, some of whom sit on this Council, including myself, and I genuinely feel that I have been able to to use your quotation of Chairman MAO "to speak my mind" in the Preparatory Committee to see whether we can do something to ensure that this result in explaining the nationality law is satisfactory and will dovetail with Hong Kong law in this regard? The time is short and I believe the next opportunity will be the next Preparatory Committee meeting towards the end of May.
GOVERNOR: Not least because of his own experience in the functional constituency which he represents, the Honourable Member knows as well as anyone just how important this issue is to Hong Kong's self-confidence and to Hong Kong's continuing prosperity as an open society with the maximum freedom of travel.
Our position is quite simply this: in January, Mr RIFKIND had a successful meeting with Vice Premier QIAN Qichen during the course of which Vice Premier QIAN Qichen confirmed that anybody who had permanent residency in Hong Kong before 1997 would have it after 1997, though both of them of course recognized that the precise way in which this was to be achieved had to be worked out in relation to the Basic Law and so on.
Now, we very much hoped that that meeting could be followed by very rapid expert talks. It is not a question, or should not be a question, of high politics. It is a question of dealing with real administrative difficulties in a way which helps people in Hong Kong and helps other people the extended Hong Kong family in Canada, Australia and elsewhere. Unfortunately, those expert talks have not yet taken place though we have had leaks of what the Chinese position is and we have now had this interesting speech by Director LU last week.
I do not know any more about the situation than that, nor do my officials, though they have and this is not because we are carping, it is because our Immigration Department is eventually going to have to make this work literally, dozens of difficult questions which we are being asked. Look at the newspapers. Look at the difficult questions which the newspapers are asking about these arrangements. Consider the questions which our immigration staff are going to start having at immigration counters before very long.
The sooner we can start addressing with Chinese officials these very difficult questions, the better. And if the Honourable Member and other members of the Preparatory Committee are offering their help in elucidating these matters, then we would very much welcome that assistance and welcome any information that we can get from them.
Originally, you may recall, we did not think it was going to be possible to deal with the question of visa-free access for SAR passport holders to the United Kingdom until we had sorted out right of abode. I did not think we could wait any longer on SAR passport visa-free access and I am delighted that the British Government reached a sensible decision on that. But there are all sorts of other countries which are going to be very reluctant to move on visa regimes for SAR passport holders until that question of right of abode is absolutely clear.
So, however we achieve it, I think the sooner we can get our experts sitting down round a table with Chinese officials, the better, because nobody doubts that under the Joint Declaration and the Basic Law, it is going to be for our Immigration Department to try to make this policy work.
MR HOWARD YOUNG: Mr Governor, as a demonstration that the Executive Council is not the only body that has problems of skirting around the edges of collective responsibility, could you bear in mind that all that has been said about the amendment to nationality law is not all that secretive? There has been an official decision by the Preparatory Committee and on that basis, plus what Mr LU said which is also public, that there is a great deal of room within the next few months through whatever channel private or personal capacity for us to achieve a sensible solution to the right of abode.
GOVERNOR: Can I say something about that. I think it has been suggested during the last few days by one or two very senior Chinese officials that even though the Preparatory Committee has reached this view, discussions cannot begin with Hong Kong Government officials because the NPC has not made a decision. I really find that difficult to accept as a sensible position, but I assure the Honourable Member that it has been said.
We really have to clear up these matters very, very quickly. There are difficult problems, mainly problems of implementation. We think, and we have tried to sound positive, that the proposals are an advance on the previous position. I still happen to think that the best way forward would have been to allow people to make a simple declaration. But that is not acceptable to Chinese officials, so we must try to find some other way forward. But the way that they are proposing raises all sorts of questions and we had better get on with sorting them out because otherwise there are going to be some very worried people come 1997, and some very confused Immigration Department officials.
PRESIDENT: Mr CHIM Pui-chung.
糕蚌┚某拜羆服ネㄓ翠ヴ羆服︓さぃぃ谋竒钡┮弧產現ǎよぃ荷ㄤよи癸常琌讽猋洁渤羆服ネ瞷и稱矗兜Τ闽靡菏穦借高疉の俱......
PRESIDENT: Mr CHIM Pui-chung, this is not one of the six topics.
GOVERNOR: I will take it.
糕蚌┚某畊ネ羆服ネ種氮и癸古贱┮穦氮и借高渤
Τ闽現┎俱砰颗よ翠常讽猋洁カチ㎝щ戈﹍沧谋眔靡菏穦筁颗ぃì镑瘤礛癩現㎝癩竒ㄆ叭硓筁结ぉ舦Τ舦菏服靡菏穦靡菏穦簔跌-
種ǎ┮и辨羆服ネ镑龟悔︽笆程и踞ヴ畊そずΤ竤狥砆氨礟-
碻タ盽硚畖ビ叫確礟τ靡菏穦ず澈礛Τㄇ緿瑆膟......
襖略ビ某畊ネ琌羆服ネ種氮獽緍セЫ砏玥и-
肈ヘ琌竒Τ┮砏﹚
PRESIDENT: I do take that I should not allow that question but the Governor is pleased to answer it. I think the intervention is appropriate in another sense in that, are you, Mr. CHIM, personally pecuniarily involved and interested in the company that you were talking about?
糕蚌┚某荡癸ぃ琌畊ネи祔穦盢獺ンユ倒羆服ネ篊篊灿и璶―羆服ネ笲ノ舦癸靡菏穦颗叫拜羆服ネ颗琌︙笲ノ㎡
MR RONALD ARCULLI: Mr President, I would like you to rule on the fact as to whether or not a Member of this Council can properly put the Governor in that embarrassing position by putting a specific case to the Governor during Governor's Question Time?
PRESIDENT: I rule that the question itself is inappropriate. Mr CHEUNG Man-kwong.
眎ゅ某拜羆服ネи獶盽種ず叭〆穦畊辩醇翬某矗跋ッ不の独煌ㄆンい┮琌糹︽︗羆服┮莱荷砫ヴ跋ッ不の独煌ㄆンи-
稱癬畊喘ネ叫拜羆服ネ璣瓣瓃戮戳丁Τ籔皑ネ坝癚翠厨癘畊喘ㄊ綝窽ㄆの璣瓣㎝翠現┎︙蛤秈畊喘ㄆンτㄤ莉眔睦產眖さぱ肚碈厨笵眔畊喘ネ夯い琕痜τぃǎ锭產常谋眔獶盽螟筁璣瓣現┎㎝翠現┎穦タΑ璶―い瓣現┎у畊喘ネ笵┪胺眃瞶パ玂碞洛㎡
GOVERNOR: If I can, without breaching the rules of order, just apologize if I was in any way responsible for an earlier breach. I have on previous occasions, occasionally answered questions which were not actually on the list in front of us. It does not necessarily mean that I will always do it if people are flattering and kind to me, but that does actually help. (Laughter) Should I resume a political career in the future I will know where to turn for assistance.
On the sad case that the Honourable Member has mentioned, I can assure the Honourable Mmber that I always discuss that particular and related issues when I return to London. It was not actually on the agenda of my meeting with the Prime Minister, but we did during the course of other discussions touch on it. The honourable gentleman will know the slightly more limited capacity for intervention where one is talking about somebody with resident's status rather than citizenship or a passport. But we have at meetings between senior British Ministers and senior Chinese officials raised the case continually and will continue to do so. I think that it is a case which concerns everyone in Hong Kong in the same way perhaps as the case of Mr AU and Mr WONG did. There is a difference in what one is able to do in the two different cases, but I appreciate that concerns will continue to be expressed, particularly if Mr XI Yang is not in good health.
眎ゅ某拜羆服ネさ边ガ現朝よネ盢穦籔翠緿快ヴ緗キネ穦ぃ笵羆服ネ琌眡ガ現穦畊矗畊喘拜肈辨畊喘镑莉眔睦狦羆服ネぃ笵杠穦ガ現锣笷и種ǎさ边穦緗キネ矗闽畊喘拜肈羆服ネ瓃戮戳丁Τ璶―璣瓣現┎硓筁ユ硚畖ㄒ缓疭ㄏ┕い瓣贝辨畊喘辨い瓣現┎ミ睦畊喘┪程ぶи┮弧笵┪胺眃瞶パу畊喘玂碞洛┪翠
GOVERNOR: I am sure that reports of what the honourable gentleman has said will reach the Chief Secretary before her engagement this evening. I am not sure whether Director LU is the ideal, and I am speaking in terms of administrative responsibility, recipient of the message. But I will ensure that the message arrives at the Chief Secretary's office.
I did not raise in London the suggestion of a special envoy, but I will continue to raise the argument that British Ministers should keep in touch with their counterparts on an issue which, I repeat, has caused widespread concern, not only in this community but elsewhere too. It is the sort of case which I dare say I will find myself answering questions on when I go in a couple of weeks' time to the United States to argue for the renewal of MFN status against a background of concern in the United States about matters such as the one the honourable gentleman has raised.
PRESIDENT: Last question, Mr CHENG Yiu-tong.
綠模磁某拜畊ネи竒盽钮羆服ネのㄤ妮弧ミ猭Ыセ某ヴ戳琌︓иΤセい地チ㎝瓣猭絪ず矗и-
ヴ戳︓せるら硂妓吏挂羆服ネ穦и-
セЫ痲ы┪穦猭セЫㄇ某荡50㎡
GOVERNOR: Well, I could probably make more physical use of a hunger strike than any of the lean, perfectly formed. (Laughter) It is rather a pity when one pays people a compliment and they cannot recognize themselves.
Let me deal with the honourable gentleman's question seriously. Nothing I have ever said seeks to argue that 30 June 1997 does not see the end of British sovereignty in Hong Kong. Equally, nothing that I have seen justifies the derailing of the so-called through train on 30 June, which has nothing to do with decisions taken by this Council or the Hong Kong Government except that those decisions which were in line with the Joint Declaration and the Basic Law were not liked by Chinese Officials.
I think that this Legislative Council should continue until 1999. I think that it would be in the community's advantage for it to do so. And I repeat that anybody who garrottes this Council in the middle of 1997 will have to justify that to opinion in Hong Kong and I dare say, since there will be quite a lot of interest in the issue, to international opinion too.
綠模磁某拜и辨羆服ネ籔翠緿快緗キヴ穦иΩ矗辨笲ノ緔まㄓ瞷ㄓ翠﹍沧⊿Τ籔穦さ边朝よネ穦籔㏄玭㎝緗キヴ边産穦朝よネ緔蠢弧羘稱籔緗キヴ穦┪璣瓣琍戳せ籔窥ㄤ礰ネ穦ㄓ肚笷硂獺狦籔緗キヴ穦穦ㄏ拜肈睲贰τセЫ痲眔玂毁
GOVERNOR: I am not sure that my charisma or lack of it has anything to do with whether or not Director LU will meet me. There is of course an obligation on us to meet, regularly, under the Memorandum of Understanding on the airport. It is not me who is preventing that happening.
The South China Morning Post did not like it when I said that I thought the civilized thing to do for people in Director LU's position and mine was to meet and talk, as happened elsewhere in the world. Well, let me put the point in another way. Everybody knows in this community that it would be in the interests of Hong Kong for us to meet and discuss matters. Everybody knows that there is hardly anything that would send a better signal to the community and the outside world. When I say hardly anything, there is one thing, and that is, if Chinese officials would bring themselves which they will have to do sooner or later to begin a dialogue with those who represent the majority of public opinion here in Hong Kong.
But in the absence of Director LU or other Chinese officials meeting me, I hope that they will have many and increasingly frequent fruitful meetings with the Chief Secretary and other senior members of my Administration. I hope that that will be the pattern for the future, even if this Patten will not be part of it.
But nothing that has been said, nothing that will be said no reflection of anyone's charisma is going to change the fundamentals of the position on the Legislative Council, on the Bill of Rights, on the application of the International Covenants in Hong Kong, and on the faithful and successful implementation of the Joint Declaration.
ADJOURNMENT AND NEXT SITTING
PRESIDENT: In accordance with Standing Orders, I now adjourn the Council until 2.30 pm on Wednesday, 24 April 1996.
Adjourned accordingly at twenty-four minutes to Four o'clock.
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL - 18 April 1996
24
ミ猭Ы せるら
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL - 18 April 1996
25
ミ猭Ы せるら