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[12 JUNE 1991]
The Earl of Arran: My Lords, I have to repeat to the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, that to the best of my knowledge that is not the case.
Lord Trefgarne: My Lords, is my noble friend aware that in, I think, January 1982 I stood at the Dispatch Box and fended off questions from the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, in exactly the same way as my noble friend is doing tonight? In the end, I had to come clean. I hope that my noble friend is not put in that position.
The Earl of Arran: My Lords, obviously I am grateful to my noble friend for those remarks. As I said before, to the best of my knowledge what the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, tried to make out this evening is not the case.
Lord Williams of Elvel: My Lords, I am sorry to intervene. My noble friend Lord Shackleton raised this matter very early this afternoon, at about four o'clock. It is now a quarter past ten in the evening. The noble Earl has had plenty of time to obtain the answer. We should like to know whether what my noble friend says is true or false.
The Earl of Arran: My Lords, I have to repeat what I have just said. To the best of my knowledge, the case that the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, tried to make out is not true. Perhaps I may please continue.
Lord Shackleton: My Lords, the noble Earl is not giving a clear answer. I know that the Leader of the House has been studying the Companion. I am before the House and I am entitled to press the question. Has the noble Earl answered the question which my noble friend asked that the Foreign Office was not formally consulted until today, despite promises? Will he give an answer? If he says he will not give one, that is all right, but he had better come clean.
The Earl of Arran: My Lords, the Foreign Office has been fully consulted, together with other government departments. The noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, now asks a new question. The crew of HMS "Endurance” have gone on leave, as planned. A normal posting action to and from HMS "Endurance" is in hand. I do not believe that I can answer any more questions on that. I hope that I have made the case of the Government perfectly clear.
Lord Shackleton: My Lords, I am sorry but I am before the House at the moment. The noble Lord the Leader of the House can always rule that a noble Lord be no longer heard, although that is a debatable Motion. It is absurd that the question is being dodged. If the noble Earl said that he simply does not know but will find out and inform the House, that would be reasonable. However, we have been told certain things on good authority. Not only have I been told, but also the noble Lord who raised the question, and the noble Lord, Lord Cochrane, who mentioned it. The House is entitled to an answer. If the Government will state that they refuse to give the information, at least we shall know where we stand.
Lord Cochrane of Cults: My Lords, my name has been mentioned in connection with this matter. I shall
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be deeply embarrassed, having made a categorical statement in that respect in my speech, if I discover that what the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, said is true.
Viscount Davidson: My Lords, I must inform my noble friend Lord Cochrane that he is getting very much out of order.
Lord Shackleton: My Lords, the noble Lord is not out of order. He can move that a noble Lord be no longer heard. It is no good the noble Viscount, Lord Davidson, pointing at the Clerk. We need to hear the noble Lord the Leader of the House speak on this
matter.
Lord Waddington: My Lords, I hope I may assist the House. My understanding of the matter was that the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, had put a question to my noble friend Lord Arran. Before my noble friend replied to that question another question was put by the noble Lord, Lord Cochrane. I should have thought that the right course to adopt to stay in order is to listen to my noble friend while he replies to the question put by the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton...
The Earl of Arran: My Lords, we may have moved on from this point, but I must repeat to the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, that I am not aware of any case he is trying to make out with reference to HMS "Endurance".
Lord Richard: My Lords, I am sorry to intervene but does the noble Earl not realise that he is saying he is ignorant of the position? He may not be aware of the position but he should have found out what it is by now. That is what my noble friend wants to know. He is not concerned whether the noble Earl is knowledgeable or ignorant about the position. However, for the noble Earl to say that he is not aware of anything frankly does not get us anywhere at all.
The Earl of Arran: My Lords, I have had time to ascertain more information. I have found the position to be as I have just stated it at the Dispatch Box.
Lord Shackleton: My Lords, what the noble Earl thinks is the truth is not the truth in practice. The noble Earl has heard the noble Lord, Lord Chalfont, refer to this matter. Will the noble Earl undertake to find out the truth of the matter and inform the House of it tomorrow? Perhaps the noble Lord the Leader of the House can help in this matter.
The Earl of Arran: My Lords, I shall try to help the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton. If I discover that there is something of which I am not aware, I shall gladly inform the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, what it is.
Noble Lords: And the House.
The Earl of Arran: My Lords, I shall also inform the House of anything I find out. I hope I may continue with my brief and perhaps return to this matter at a later stage. I apologise to the House that after that somewhat lengthy intervention it may take a few more minutes to finish the points to which I wish to refer. My noble friend Lord Glenarthur asked about civil servants. In announcing Options for
609 LD42/57 Job 8-12