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LORD TREFGARNE] Challenger tank. I hope that the Government will be heavily influenced by those considerations when they take their decision.
The Government have recently said that they intend to take a decision on this matter in the very near future. I hope that when my noble friend Lord Arran replies to the debate he will be able to confirm that. I hope that the announcement when it comes before the end of this month, as has been promised, will not merely ask for more time.
I have gone into the matter in some detail because I believe that it is symptomatic of the difficulties that are facing the defence manufacturing industry at the present time. Of course great changes are taking place. Of course they are having a profound effect upon the Ministry of Defence. However, they are also having a profound effect on British industry, and I hope that the Government will take those points firmly into consideration.
4.45 p.m.
Lord Shackleton: My Lords, the noble Lord has much experience in the defence field, both as a Minister and as a former pilot. I hope that the Government will pay attention to the questions he asked.
Originally I intended to make only a few remarks about the air force. I am grateful to the noble Lord the Lord Privy Seal for the account that he gave concerning the number of aircraft which are to be cancelled. I should like to say farewell to one particular aircraft which is shortly to disappear-the Shackleton. It is nearly as old as I am. I remember quarrelling with the noble Lord, Lord Harvey of Prestbury, and saying that it ought to be called the Lincoln. I was accused of damaging the morale of the workforce by not calling it the Shackleton. However, I am grateful that it was called the Shackleton.
Although the aircraft did not see service in warlike operations it is in its way a miracle. It has gone on for ever. It has the same Griffin engines. Three old Shackletons are now sitting at RAF Waddington— nothing to do with the Lord Privy Seal. I am told that they are to be auctioned at Sotheby's. I hope that some will be bought and retained in this country.
It has been a very successful aircraft. Those of us who know it and who have flown it pay tribute to its sturdiness and to the Griffin engines, which go on for ever. It ended its life performing a useful role as an airborne early warning aircraft when the radar for the Nimrod aircraft failed. I stress that it was the radar which failed. There was nothing wrong with the Nimrod aircraft, which remains very successful.
I am told that Shackleton aircraft will fly over London during the Trooping the Colour birthday parade. Therefore, those who have not seen her will have an opportunity to do so. She is not a very striking looking aircraft. She looks old fashioned, like so many of us. There is more that we should like to know concerning aircraft, such as the future of the European fighter.
I have another farewell, to HMS "Endurance”, if the Ministry of Defence has its way. We learn today
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-some of us were told at the weekend-that the crew of HMS "Endurance" will be informed when they return from leave on Monday that the ship is eing phased out and that no replacement is being built. We had some discussion on the subject during a Question in this House. We were assured then, without much firmness of purpose-nonetheless, it served to get the Government out of an awkward position-that there was no question at the moment of a change in the programme which allowed for a replacement for HMS "Endurance". When we queried to what extent the Foreign Office had been consulted we were told that it had been consulted. The Foreign Office had not been consulted. The first official news the Foreign Office had was today.
I find that amazing. It reflects what happened in 1981-82 when HMS "Endurance" was cancelled without either the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, or Mr. Ridley knowing about it. Indeed, at that time the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, gave orders that it should not be cancelled. Now we hear that the ship will be cancelled without a replacement.
This is not purely sentiment-although Mrs. Thatcher said that "Endurance" or a replacement would go on for a very considerable period. That is on the record. The role of "Endurance” is very important to the British interests in the Antarctic. It is not necessary for the protection of the Falklands, although it has a symbolic purpose. It has a role possibly in the long term on the fishery side; but that is taken care of largely by the Falklands. It is important in hydrography and work in support of the British Antarctic Survey, already under discussion for the next season.
The British Antarctic Surveys is able, through the helicopters of HMS "Endurance", to put scientists into areas to which they would otherwise not go. The hydrography side is of the greatest importance. The danger to the environment of the Antarctic does not come from mining-I suspect that there will be no mining in the Antarctic during the lifetime of any of the Members of this Housė, but from ships that go down there and the absence of good hydrography.
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"Endurance" helps in that respect, and in doing so is following a naval tradition. Antarctic exploration has depended on the Royal Navy. The noble Lord the Lord Privy Seal referred to the outer non-NATO areas. This is a non-NATO activity. Many of us hoped that when the threat in the North Atlantic disappeared there would be further facilities for that naval tradition. Indeed, Operation Tabarin, which was the original source of information for, and the origin of, the British Antarctic Survey, was a naval operation. The navy has always played a part in the work, dating back to the time when Cook first crossed the Antarctic Circle and to Admiral Ross with "Erebus" and "Terror”. Captain Scott himself was on a naval expedition. It is absurd to think that it is improper for the navy to give support to such scientific activity.
I know that now everyone has to be charged for use. That is the modern fashion. But the Royal Navy has played a very important role. I hope that a successor-I stress that it must be a successor because the "Endurance” cannot go on for ever-will be