152
4 February 1985]
[Chairman Contd.]
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE
MR R LUCE, MP, MR A C Galsworthy, DR D C WILSON and DR D CARTER
Australian troops. Therefore, both the United States and Australia have a very great responsibility to help resolve the aftermath of that conflict. We, on our part, have endeavoured to discover from the Australian High Commission and from the United States Embassy here in London whether those two countries would be persuaded to take more of the refugees from Hong Kong, if the United Kingdom were to make a modest gesture. It does seem to me that our contribution of taking 20,000 refugees is already exceptionally generous. We have received, like you, the intimation, from both those countries, which leads us to have some doubt as to whether in fact a modest gesture would suffice. What can you do, as a Government, through the negotia- tion in foreign affairs in the United Nations and directly with these countries, to per- suade them to take more (because they do bear a very, very great part of the responsi- bility for these refugees)?
(Mr Luce.) Mr Wheeler, first of all, you will be very familiar no doubt with the figures of the numbers that they have taken of Indo-Chinese refugees-Vietnamese refugees in the last eight to nine years. The United States, I think, is in the lead, then France, I believe, then you have the figures for Australia and other countries. If you want me to give them, I will ask one of my officials to do that. I am here to defend the British Government. I am grateful to you for saying that you believe that we have been generous in our policies, in taking 20,000 or just under 20,000. I believe that to be the case. However, the plain fact re- mains, whether we like or not, that these 11,900 refugees in Hong Kong are regarded by the outside world, and accepted by us now, as being our responsibility. The Hong Kong Government carries the main respon- sibility. The British Government is respon- sible for Hong Kong. Certainly we are looking to the United States and other countries to do whatever they can. Cer- tainly I must acknowledge that last year they took over 1,000 from Hong Kong itself. I think that that should be acknowledged. I do believe, nevertheless, that they expect something further from us. I agree it is a question of judgment as to how do we define "modest"? I do not know that they expect us to do anything very substantial; I think they simply want evidence that we have got some kind of a policy of our own. Then I believe there is a better chance at least that they will be able to respond or give a bigger response.
[Continued
236. Nevertheless, we find in this Com- mittee and I think that Parliament itself might find it to be so that it is quite abhorrent that people should be interned in prison-like conditions, however humane they may be, in our Crown Colony in Hong Kong. There has to be a solution to that. There has to be a solution by 1997, though it is presumably unthinkable that children should be born into prison-like conditions and be allowed to grow up, both as children and as teenagers, then become adults, under those circumstances. So it does seem to us that there has to a quite formidable effort, on the part of the Foreign Office, to negotiate a solution with other countries. Do you see this issue as something of a priority within the Foreign Office to find a solution?
(Mr Luce.) The answer must be that yes, it must be a priority in terms of our responsibilities. I would agree with you that our objective must be to find a durable solution. The discussion this afternoon has highlighted the very real dilemma and very real difficulties that we face in finding a durable solution. However, that must be our responsibility, and that must be our objective. I have to say that I think the Committee may well help us a great deal on the assessment of this, but it is our responsi- bility to take the lead, as the Department in the Government responsible for Hong Kong, and to try to find a solution to it. It will not necessarily come quickly, but I think the problem that you have high- lighted-about young children spending a very long period in these camps-is a very real one, and we want to overcome it. It is, of course, part of the wider scene and is part of a regional and a world problem. Indeed, if Vietnam were to create conditions as well which would encourage people to go back, then that in itself, I have to say (and I think it should be said now), would be at least part of the longer-term solution to this problem.
Mr Hanley
237. Can I ask you, Mr Luce, a broader question? When this Committee started its investigation into refugee status, we studied three international organisations relevant to the topic. Those were the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees, the Inter- national Red Cross and also the Intergo- vernmental Committee for Migration. Can you say what HM Government's position is with regard to these three bodies; also whether you believe that the adoption of