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THE HOME AFFAIRS SUB-COMMITTEE ON RACE RELATIONS AND IMMigration 141
4 February 1985]
[Mr Hunt Conid.]
MR R LUCE, MP, MR A C Galsworthy, DR D C WILSON and MR D CARTER
day their attitude is that they regard us as the Government and the country that car- ries the responsiblity for those 11,900 refu- gees in Hong Kong, and they want to be convinced that we are doing our utmost to help, despite the fact that we have indeed been generous and have taken nearly 20,000 refugees. It is in that climate that we are better able to have a prospect of a positive response from other resettlement countries.
222. If we were, in a sense, merely to say, "We accept responsiblity for the family reunion cases and will, over a period of two or three years, undertake to resettle them in the United Kingdom”, do you think they would consider that as, in your words, "doing our utmost”?
(Mr Luce.) It is always very difficult to make a judgement on this, but I think I could say this: that I believe that a very clear indication that we are prepared to carry out a resettlement programme, link- ing it perhaps to special family reunion cases, and that we have very positive proposals and ideas in this connection, could well produce a response. I should, in fairness, mention that in 1984 no less than 3,800 refugees from Hong Kong were reset- tled, of which over 1,000 were in the United States. But I do believe that, in answer to your question, we might get a bigger response if we were able to have something positive to say in this connection.
Mr Hanley
223. Mr Luce, the policy of the closed camps was introduced, as you have said, to provide a humane deterrent. Is it your belief that it really has been a deterrent and is still a deterrent? We know that the number of refugees arriving by boat in Hong Kong has fallen dramatically, but not only in Hong Kong, throughout the area of South-East Asia where traditionally Vietnamese have fled, and also because of the development of the concept of orderly departure by the Vietnamese Government. Therefore, first of all, do you think that it was a deterrent, and do you think that it still is?
(Mr Luce.) Firstly, Mr Hanley, to go back to the initial purpose in the summer of 1982, it was, as you say, to exercise the policy of humane deterrent. When one looks back over a long period, Hong Kong had already taken no less than 100,000 refugees through these camps, many of whom have now been resettled. That in itself, to my mind, is a remarkable achievement on the part of Hong Kong, when you think of the prob- lems that they have to grapple with, which
[Continued
are of a very considerable nature and a very dense population. So I think that an enor- mous tribute is owed to Hong Kong for this. Therefore, it was our objective to try to introduce a policy which would deter other Vietnamese from coming to Hong Kong. All I can do is to suggest that we look at the indicators, and those are the figures. Per- haps I may put it to you this way. In 1981 (which is before the start of the policy) Hong Kong arrivals increased by 25 per cent over the 1980 levels, whereas those for the region as a whole increased by only five per cent; in 1982 Hong Kong arrivals went down by only seven per cent, compared with a regional decline of 41 per cent; in 1983, however (by which time the closed centre policy was well established and widely known about in Vietnam), Hong Kong arrivals were 53 per cent less than for those in 1982, compared with a regional decline of 36 per cent; in 1984 the Hong Kong decrease was 39 per cent, and that for the region was only 11 per cent. All I can show you are the indicators of the figures. It is not working perfectly, but I believe it has had some effect.
224. There obviously is a tremendous problem with any refugee flood, in trying to decide as UNHCR have to decide so often--whether a person is what we would call a refugee or an economic migrant. One of the terrible troubles of recent history is that the two have become almost fused in the minds of too many people. Paradoxi- cally, of course, the Vietnamese, once they become an economic migrant and leave the country without permission, become, I sup- pose, a refugee, in as much as they cannot go back without fear of punishment. That is something which perhaps Hong Kong has suffered from particularly. Now that there is an orderly departure programme in Vietnam, should we not perhaps even still be considering sending back people to Vietnam, or is that out of the question in the minds of HM Government?
(Mr Luce.) Mr Hanley, first of all, I think you are raising a very important but never- theless exceedingly difficult problem. As a factual point, I should stress (because per- haps I should do) that those 11,900 refugees in Hong Kong are treated as refugees, as you know, by the Government of Hong Kong. The question of the origins of these refugees and the reasons why they have come out of those countries is, of course, a very deep and a very difficult one. It is perfectly possible to argue that those from