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Hong Kong
[ LORDS]
[LORD AVEBURY.] Government of this country would give sympathetic consideration to the situation of the few people we are discussing in this amendment this afternoon. I think that that was obviously as far as she could go.
I was not really expecting that the Government would accept the amendment as it stood, but I was hoping and my hopes have been realised-that we would get some forthcoming response from the Government as a result of tabling the amendment. That was the object I had in mind, and that is the object which has been achieved. Although I must reserve the position until we hear what the Council of Hong Kong Indian Associations have to say when they have read Hansard, I believe that they will warmly welcome the assurances which the Government have given this afternoon. Therefore, I have pleasure in asking your Lordships' leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Lord Gridley moved Amendment No. 2:
Page 2. line 43, at end insert-
("; and
(c) as to the public service of Hong Kong and persons being members or former members thereof (including provision for the discharge of obligations to, or otherwise compensating, such persons and for the apportionment of liabilities arising therefrom).").
The noble Lord said: In moving Amendment No. 2, prior to giving the motives which lie behind my objectives I should like to say something about the words in my amendment which I wish to be included in the Bill. I have used the words "public service", and my amendment states clearly "persons being members or former members thereof". "Public service" covers not only members of Her Majesty's Overseas Civil Service in Hong Kong but other officers who fall within that category.
The present situation on these issues in Hong Kong, as to who qualifies, is not dissimilar to the situation which was found by Her Majesty's Government when they granted independence to Kenya. In that case, in Statutory Instrument 1963 No. 1969, 'the Kenya (Compensation and Retiring Benefits) Order in Council, the schedule had the following qualification to make. "Entitled officer" was there defined as "an officer in the public service". It also includes, under Section (c) a member who
"is a member of Her Majesty's Overseas Civil Service or Her Majesty's Overseas Judiciary, or a designated officer for the purposes of""
overseas service. I respectfully suggest, from what I have said, that when an Order in Council is made for Hong Kong covering compensation and retirement provisions it will probably follow, as and where appropriate, the provisions made formerly in relation to the Order in Council for Kenya.
4.15 p.m.
Having explained the use of the words "public service" in my amendment, I now wish to state my motives for moving it. In doing so there lies no criticism whatsoever on my part of Her Majesty's Government for what to date they have achieved in the Hong Kong agreement, and particularly in securing a joint declaration with the People's Republic
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of China. Nor do I not appreciate the courtesy and consideration shown me by my right honourable and noble friend the Minister of State in an acceptance at Second Reading of the points I made regarding the importance of stressing the safeguards for pensionable status and other obligations which lie at the door of Her Majesty's Government.
I must nevertheless emphasise that in no other case, so far as I know, where Her Majesty's Government have granted independence to her former territories have any Brithsh Government given 12 years' notice ahead of their intention so to do, and of course that is the case in Hong Kong. In that connection the situation does not appear to have been clearly stated as to the position of Her Majesty's overseas civil servants, or cognisance given of the fact that they have to wait for 12 years in a career service for action in respect of their pensionable emoluments and status.
I accept and appreciate what my noble friend the Minister said at Second Reading, at column 507 of Hansard of 19th February, in her reply with reference to my desires regarding the safeguarding of the rights of public servants. But when my right honourable friend said that in respect of other territories these issues have generally been negotiated at the last moment before independence and signed after independence, I must emphasise that this is an anomalous position which has never applied hitherto and is now applying in Hong Kong, and in these circumstances Hong Kong is in a very special situation.
If my amendment is accepted it does nothing to fetter the hands of Her Majesty's Government in this Bill as to the manner in which it is drafted. It does not impose any time limit as to when Her Majesty's Government should act or exercise their obligations. The amendment seeks to include in the Bill what is obvious: that certain existing obligations and liabilities regarding pensions lie at the door of Her Majesty's Government. It seems to me appropriate that the in the words "discharge of obligations" amendment which I have proposed.
In conclusion, I believe that this amendment would help Her Majesty's Government in retaining their public servants in Hong Kong-loyal servants of the Crown-in the most important work that lies before them in the 12 years ahead. There is valuable work to be done, and there are many difficulties which it will need the skill and devotion of experienced officers to overcome I beg to move.
Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos: I was not suprrised to read this amendment because the noble Lord, Lord Gridley has been a loyal advocate of this small group of public servants from the start. I was present at the debate on the agreement on 10th September when I recall that he spoke most strongly, and emphasised that there is a widespread anxiety among the expatriate staff in Hong Kong about the future of their pensions. I have also personally received represent- ations about them since then.
In the second Reading debate on 19th February the noble Lord made a further strong plea and asked for an assurance from the Government that Hong Kong expatriate officers would be treated on a par with other officers similarly recruited by the British Government.