1073
Mr. Dalyell]
Dependent Territories
15 APRIL 1983
Argentina, the Heroina and the Sarandi. They have David Brown gearboxes, Hawker Siddeley electronic propulsion controls and Rolls-Royce engines.
Following the issue that was raised yesterday in the House by my hon. Friend the Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner) with the Prime Minister and by me with the Leader of the House, a statement must be forthcoming from the Government about whether there are talks on the supply of British spares. It is intolerable that our people on the Falklands should be put in danger. I say that in no party spirit. The hon. Member for Essex, South-East (Sir B. Braine) and I have agreed on few occasions in the past 15 months, but we might agree that there must be a serious statement. The Prime Minister's explanation of what might happen to the Argentine economy, which might be true, is not sufficient, because of the urgent problem of export of arms.
The Tory party's attitude is becoming very uncomfort- able. Many of them have a resigned feeling that while the Prime Minister stays they must accept that we are in the Falklands. The right hon. Lady has ardent supporters, such as the hon. Member for Orpington. However, as soon as we start building the airport we are on a motorway from which there is no easy exit. That is why decisions should not be taken before the House has had the opportunity to discuss the reports of the Select Committee on Foreign Affairs and the Select Committee on Defence. That should be done before we start on a course that will be ever more difficult to leave. I believe that leave it we must.
I am provoked by the hon. Member for Orpington, who initiated the debate on Gibraltar, because who can doubt that the Spanish objections to Invincible are yet another of the invisible costs of the Falklands war? We must face the fact that units associated with the task force are not welcome in the Hispanic world. There have been protests in the Cortes. The Spanish Government have expressed profound displeasure and anxiety over what they call an inopportune visit to Gibraltar. They did not speak like that before the Falklands. The Spanish foreign office talks about taking the necessary diplomatic and political measures to ensure Spain's interests in its national waters. The House and the country would be unwise to imagine that all that is Spanish bravado. What do we do if Spain applies considerable pressure and Spanish ships start patrolling the straits? Is it proposed, as the hon. Member for Orpington I think believes, that in certain circumstances we would dispatch a battle fleet against the Government of Felipe Gonzalez? Is that the great plan?
Mr. Moate: Is the hon. Gentleman proposing to abandon the Gibraltarians in the same way as he would clearly have abandoned the Falkland Islanders and any other nation or groups of people who see themselves as dependent upon this country?
Mr. Dalyell: The hon. Gentleman deserves a candid answer. There would have to be discussions with the Spanish Government. I believe that we could have had fruitful discussions with the Argentine junta and that the Falkland Islands could have had the privilege of joining the Anglo-Argentine community and not the disappeared ones. I would discuss handing over sovereignty, but I should try to obtain the best deal that I could for the people.
552
Dependent Territories
1074
When I was an indirectly elected Member of the European assembly, I was friendly with Felipe Gonzalez, who used to come to meetings of the Socialist group, and with many of his senior Ministers. We had better start talking to them seriously, sincerely and soon. There were 17 years of dialogue with Argentina over the Falklands which were patently insincere. Bad relations with the first democratic Government in Spain since Franco are not in Great Britain's national interest nor in the interests of the people of Gibraltar, whatever some hon. Members say. The sooner we start discussing the problem with the Socialist Government in Spain- - whom I profoundly welcome-the better.
10.43 am
Dr. Alan Glyn (Windsor and Maidenhead): I know that the hon. Member for West Lothian (Mr. Dalyell) will forgive me if I do not follow him. Most of his questions were directed at the Minister, and I am certain that the Minister will answer him in due course.
I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Orpington (Mr. Stanbrook) on initiating this debate. As he rightly said, it is probably the first debate that we have had which includes all the dependencies. So far, we have had to discuss them in isolation, but the wording of his motion enables us to have a wide-ranging debate. He is probably "one of the best qualified people to speak on this debate as an ex-member of the Colonial Service and a member of the Bar.
I wish to deal with Hong Kong. I see that my hon. Friend the Member for Howden (Sir P. Bryan) has just entered the Chamber. He is an expert on this matter and I know that should I make any mistakes he will correct me if he catches your eye later, Mr. Deputy Speaker. It is clear that we could not possibly hive off the colony from the New Territories because they contain not just a great deal of industry but also the water supply.
There will have to be a sensible solution when the lease runs out. I remind the House that it is a great advantage to China at the moment to have the use of what is virtually an international banking system. Hong Kong is the Switzerland of that part of the world. Currency goes through the colony and China can make many payments in that way. It is in the interests also of many other countries that we should arrive at a sensible solution. I know that the visit of my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister to mainland China will have an effect on the negotiations which must precede the termination of the treaty. It is not possible to reach a solution similar to that arrived at with the Portuguese over Macao because that territory is so much smaller than Hong Kong, and its circumstances are so different.
My hon. Friend the Member for Orpington referred to Belize. I remember saying to the Prime Minister and the chief justice that that territory was indefensible against a Guatemalan invasion. Guatemala has internal problems and any state with internal problems always looks for aggrandisement. I pointed out to the Prime Minister, Mr. Price, that he should think seriously before seeking independence as to whether he is capable of defending his country against aggression from a neighbour. It would possibly be to his advantage if the presence of British troops was included in any solution. I take responsibility for encouraging the Prime Minister and the chief justice to pursue that course.