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[Lord Elton.] That is a matter which I would happily leave to lawyers. It is a matter of which I was not aware until the noble Lord raised it. My view is that I would need to know a very great deal more than the noble Lord has vouchsafed to us, before I knew what I was talking about. It seems to me that, with legal responsibility, there may go other considerations. I do not wish to draw illustrations out of my imagination. I agree that, on the face of it, it is a surprising provision, but it is possible that responsibility brings with it privilege. I simply do not know. I shall be fascinated to hear what the noble Lord, Lord Gorowny-Roberts has to say in comment on the letter of Councillor Elsie Elliott who, I know, is profoundly interested in housing. It is impossible to look at this problem out there without being aware of the fact.
In conclusion, I would just say this. What I have said is simply a gloss on the discussion. The intention is to make it clear that, having looked fairly closely at what is going on in Hong Kong, in person, on the ground, twice in the last three or four years, I am convinced that a great deal of good is going on there, and that with the extraordinary, indeed the unique, stresses under which that Crown Colony exists, with the enormous neighbour with a titular right to resume ownership before the end of the century, with very considerable numbers of immi- grants coming in from that neighbour, and others, I might say-after all, it is not only the 100,000 whom they have to house; I think that at the latest count there were 9,000 refugees from Vietnam who have been added to the list-one might expect riots, one might expect destitution, one might expect deprivation and one might expect epidemics. When we consider that the question at the moment is whether 76 people were wrongly required to appear before a magistrate and to be bound over, that puts the question in perspective. As to the other question of the responsibility of juveniles, I feel that one of my noble and learned friends on this Bench would be better equipped to comment on that than I am.
7.50 p.m.
Lord HALE: My Lords, the process of dying slowly interests and in many ways fascinates me. One problem more than
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any other, perhaps, which has been worrying me is that once in my somewhat impertinent youth I asked a very dis- tinguished Labour Minister of the highest repute whether or not, when he spoke about lessons of experience, he was speaking about the hardening of the art- eries. That is perfectly true today. Having listened to a talk at about three o'clock in the morning on the new tech- nology of the silicon chip and the marvels. and miracles as well as the problems that are to come, and having had the privilege of listening to most of the very brilliant debate which took place this afternoon, I wondered whether there was a certain lack of perspective. I am quite sure that I was wrong.
I have listened to my very old, respected and valued friend putting his case with studied moderation. Indeed, the noble Lord, Lord Boyd-Carpenter, is an old and beloved friend, but the interjection,
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I know the Governor and we can rely upon him" is to be deplored. First, it is not very kind to the Governor, who is known all over Asia and who has had tributes paid to him in almost every debate which has been held on Hong Kong. He has received the highest honours from Her Majesty. When I listen to my noble friend Lord Goronwy-Roberts speaking about the Governor, it is obvious that he holds a special place in the heart of my noble friend. That is a great distinction on its own. I shall not pursue the matter, but I do feel that one must trust the Governor. It is the precise antithesis and the precise problem of democratic politics. If one must trust the Governor, there is no room for debate and argument. Tonight, nobody has said a word against the Governor.
We had a debate on Hong Kong 1976, and many of the same points were made then. Tributes were paid to the Governor. I said then that Hong Kong had never had a better Governor. Nobody raised any criticisms because the Governor was facing problems of quite exceptional difficulty. He has obviously been facing such problems quite recently. What is one to do if refugees come, by purchase, over the seas from the devastated territories of Vietnam, which have borne more bom- bardment and more destruction and which have had more poison poured upon them than any other country? If those refugees
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