450
THE HONGKONG WEEKLY PRESS AND time nor does it empower the Governor-in-, value, then the time will come for the Govern, Council to make it an offence. All that it does
other
is to empower tho Governor-in-Council if necessity should arise in the future, to compel persons to spit circumspectly, that is to say in drains and spittoons so that the habit should not be a danger to the public health. During the discussion on the Public Health and
various Buildings Ordinance and on occasions I think I have given evidence to the Council that I most heartily desire the coopera- tion of the Chinese in all measures of sanitary reform in the colony. It has been the burden of every address I have made on this subject, and I think therefore this committee may trust me and may trust the Executive Council not to act in any way prejudicial to that idea. The discus- Bions which take place in this Council find their echoes outside and I would therefore | deprecate observations which tend in opposite directions. The principle I have supported is that we should seek the co-operation of the Chinese in all our measures of sanitary reform and there is nothing in my mind in the amend- ment before the Council which is opposed to that principle.
Hon. Dr. Ho KAI-Sir, I think since your Excellency has gone so far as to promise that for the next six months at least no step will be taken to make spitting a criminal offence, that it would perhaps be better still if your Ex- cellency would allow certain measures to be carried out and at the end of that time see what
effect they hal. Then we would be in a position to know if non-success attended our efforts for what to legislate. It has this advantage: First of all we would say to the public that we would like to have spitting on floors in certain places stopped, and if it is not stopped in a certain time we shall have to pass compulsory measures. I think suitable measures might be devised and carried out. Then we would be in a position to know how far we have succeeded or how far we have failed and what measures we should adopt to achieve success. For this reason, Sir, I more that this clause be struck out altogether for the time. It can
be made the subject of distinct legislation afterwards.
Hon. Mr. WEI YUK seconded. Hon. Mr. POLLOCK-Sir, I entirely support what has been said by the hon. senior unofficial member and I agree with the majority of the unofficial members of this Council that the time is not ripe for even granting power to the Governor-in-Council to make any regulations with regard to spitting. As your Excellency said the other day this matter has been discussed in the Sanitary Board for some time past. but up to the present moment SO far as I am: aware, no educational steps have been taken There has not, so far as I am aware, been any attempt either public or private to provide any receptacles for people to spit in. Therefore, Sir, I think I am quite correct in saying that educational measures have not begun at all and I think, Sir, that it is very necessary before power is taken to actually bring legislation in force, that first of all educational measures should be tried. I deprecate any legislation or any power to legislate in this matter being conferred on this Council at the present moment until it can be seen, as the hon. senior unofficial member has stated, what can bo done in the way of education. As I put it now receptacles should be provided for Chinese to spit in. That seems to me the obvious pre- Aminary measure before stating that spitting shall be an offence or making any regulation regarding it. Therefore, Sir, I hope your Excellency will yield to the wish expressed by all the unofficial members of this Council except the hon. member who represents the Chamber of Commerce and that you will allow this clause to be deleted altogether.
Hon Mr. SLADE-Sir, I quite agree with what has been said on this point and I think a great deal can be done in this matter privately, and without Government regulations at all. An instance was given to me only a few days ago by a gentleman here. He objected to the state of his stairs and put the matter before his Chinese staff. He had notices put up and with- in two or three days the nuisance was very
not nearly, if
entirely, done away with. If
do that I can one person
think it
ment to take the matter in hand.
[December 21, 1908
holding up the whip. I only ask your Excellency to give us a chance of getting their coopera- tion without legislative compulsion.
HIS EXCELLENCY-The principle has been already decided and I am not prepared to go back that principle. There is no amendment before the committee.
on
Hon. Dr. Họ KAI-There is an amendment. The COLONIAL TreasuRER-This is a bill to make various amendments in the law and this happens to be one of them. There is no prin- ciple involved in the Bill.
HIS EXCELLENCY-I will put the amendment . by the senior unofficial member that this clause be deleted.
The COLONial SecretaRY.-Sir, I think there is a misapprehension regarding the absence of educational measures. Such have been taken during several months past and it strikes me, Sir, that the question having been raised it is much better to deal with it as proposed and take power. There is no use in threatening a man with an unloaded gau. If you want to threaten him you have got to load the gun first. That is all
We say if you this Bill proposes to do.
don't give up a certain habit you will make it neces sary for us to legislate. It appears to be the opinion on the part of the Chinese and unofficial members that this section is directed against the Chinese. In my experience Chinese are by no means the principal offenders. I think the Hon. Captain Superintendent of Police will have to educate his Indian police constables or he will have them run in. They are, in my experience. quite as bad offenders as any man wearing a queue in this habit of spitting. I don't think, Sir, that private educational measures would be effective. In my opinion the places where the habit is most apparent are the public wharves of the colony. In the summer time many of us go Hon. Dr. Ho KAI proposed a new section to bathing from Queen's Statue Pier and that place take the place of the section under debate. It is absolutely a disgrace. It is covered with chew proposed to give power to the Governor-in- ed and spat out sugar cane and other deposits of Council to make regulations with regard to even a more objectionable nature. If trust the provision of spittoons in places where that the educational measures of the Registrar-spitting woull be prohibite t. General and the Captain Superintendent of Police may result in cleansing that wharf. I
to any objection 800
the clause
cannot
|
as it stands. As education goes on it will not If education does not go on enforced. then it will be admitte:l that in certain localities some action will be necessary.
Hon. Dr. Ho KAI-What is the difference between legislating after six months and creating the power now and not exercising it for six months?
The COLONIAL SECRETARY-The Ordinance is here and we have a convenient place to put it in. As I said we are much more likely to succeed than if people don't know.
Hon. Dr. Ho KAI-But they do know. If education does not improve matters. legislative measures can be passed. I do not know that it is peculiar to the Chinese but. like other people, they like to be led rather than to be driven. If you pass the clause now you palpably apply the whip. Why not have the clause left out and at the end of six months after other measures have been tried, then legislate when If they are they are proved unsuccessful.
will not have to burden our
successful
WE
Statutes with any clause empowering legislation on the subject.
HIS EXCELLENCY-We are not obliged to introduce any legislation until the end of six months. You wish us to pledge ourselves to intro. duce legislation at the end of six months. We say legislation may at any time be introduced, but I have given a pledge that for six months it shall not be introduced."
Hon. Mr. GRESSON-Is not that in the nature of a threat, Sir? The very thing we want to avoid. The Chinese do not understand these things very clearly and will say the Government are doing their best to molest us in every pos. sible way. They are going to introduce a bill to put us into prison for spitting. We don't wish the Chinese in Hongkong to think that we are going to threaten them.
Hon. Mr. POLLOCK-I understood your Excellency to say just now that members of the Executive Council were not unanimous on this point. I would point out to your Excellency that a very large majority of the unofficials are against the introduction of this measure at the
present moment.
The COLONIAL SECRETARY-Sir, the parties that the hon. member represents are at cross purposes. One half want the clause struck out altogether, while the Chinese members say give us six months grace, and, if the habit is not stopped, then legislate.
I
Hon. Dr. Ho KAI-I did not say that. said if it is not stopped then it will be time for you to pass a law.
HIS EXCELLENCY-I have already said that before any regulations are issued steps will be
taken.
Hon. Dr. Ho KAI-Then do away with the can be done in all offices and public measure and the Chinese will see that the buildings. If it is found that it is of no Government want their co-operation without
The amendment was put, the voting being as follows: Ayes-Hon. Mr. Slade, Hon. Mr. Gresson, Hon. Mr. Pollock, Hon. Mr. Wei Yuk, and Hon. Dr. Ho Kai.. Novs-Hon. Mr. Hewett, Captain Superintendent of Police, the Registrar General, the Director of Public Works, the Colonial Treasurer, the Attorney General, the Colonial Secretary and the General Officer Commanding.
HIS EXCELLENCY-The noes have it by eight votes to fire.
*
Hon. Mr. HEWETT asked if it was expected that a man should provide spittoons for use in his own office.
The COLONIAL SECRETARY replied that there was no precedent for such a provision.
Hon. Mr. GRESSON remarked that the carry- ing out of this law was going to cause more trouble than all the spitting of which we com plained.
Hon. Dr. Ho KAI said he found nothing on the statute book of England with regard to spitting. The COLONIAL SECRETARY-England is so well educated that it is not necessary.
Hon. Mr. POLLOCK suggested that the last clause of the amendment should be amended by adding a clause to the effect that the provisions should be submitted to the Legislative Council for approval, and that they should be printed in English and Chinese in the Gazette.
The COLONIAL TREASURER pointed out
it would be absurd to have the decisions of the Executive Council referred back again to the Legislative Council.
Hon. Mr. POLLOCK asked if it was proposed to make the Executive Council a star chamber so that its actions should not be the subject of criticism in the Legislative Council.
HIS EXCELLENCY added that anything the Governor-in-Council did was done in virtue of the powers given by the Legislative Council.
Hon. Mr. POLLOCK said there was no reason why the ultimate expression of all wisdom should lie in the Executive Council.
HIS EXCELLENCY-Very limited powers are given by the Legislative Council to the Governor-in-Council. In making regulations, the minimum penalty is to be $35.
Hon. Mr. POLLOCK-I am not referring to the penalty. It is a question of assuming rights in a manner which has aroused a great deal of controversy.
The COLONIAL SECRETARY-Can yọn quote any precedent?-
Hon. Mr. POLLOCK-It does not require any procedent.
The first part of Hon. Dr. Ho Kal's amendment, relating to the prohibition of spitting in certain places, was accepted by the Government. The second part, with regard to the provision of spittoons in offices and other public places for the convenience of visitors, was voted upon. Only the Hon. Mr. Wei Yak and Hon. Dr. Ho Kai supported it, all the other members voting against it. The third part with ̧ regard to the Interpretation Ordinance was withdrawn.
The Hon. Mr. POLLOCK's amendment, making it necessary that the regulation allould receive the approval of the Legislative Council, was next considered.
HIS EXCELLENCY—I am afraid the Govern. ment cannot accept that amendment. If power is given to the Governor-in-Conucil to make these regulations it will be creating a wrong impression te refer it again to the Legislative Council.
No comments yet.
Private notes are available after approval.