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April 13, 1908.]
CHINA OVERLAND TRADE REPORT
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239
We
the Board should have the power to appoint throw the whole of these liabilities on the land- and dismiss officers. Our recommendation was
of this subject is that we have no definition lords of the Colony. Bat if the Government of that we considered the present system of dealing think they are not going to lose anything then consequently we do not know what forms the words Sanitary Department, and with this class of Government officers was far it is very mistaken policy indeed, boause they from satisfactory. We think all inspectors and will lose indirectly if not directly through the finition in the Ordinance when it was first
a Sanitary Department. There is no de officers of minor grade should be engaged on a fall in the market price of property in Hongkong created, No 23 of 1903 because they struck monthly agreement when it would be perfect'y But the same reason would not apply to sub- out throughout the Ordinance "Officers of the easy for His Excellency to get rid of any section 2. The Commissioners drew atten- Board" and called them "Officers of the Sanitary undesirable s rvant, or if it is desirable to:tion to the ambiguons wording of this section Department," it seems to me that before we engage them on similar terms as members of but neither the Medical Officer of Health can settle the constitution of the Board the police force. You will se, Sir, we never Dor the Director of Public Works when ought to have a definition of the Sanitary Depart. suggested appointing to His Excellency. I will oross examined by the Commissioners were able ment and the duties clearly defined of the admin. content myself with what I have just said so to explain what this section meant. Either the istrative head of that department. Broadly far as the Governor's speech is concerned M. O. H. or the Director of Public Works will speaking the Governor thinks that he is the until we come to the details in the other have to adjudicate as to the meaning of this sub-head of a department of men and the whole of portions. Having thought it necessary to section. have one word to say in conclusion, them are constituted to carry out the orders of vindicate ourselves, and justify our actions I and I feel rather diffi lent about saying it after the Board. If that is so and the Board is beg to repeat most emphatically that it the President's remark, but as the State is with no want of respect to His Excellency for
supreme I am perfectly satisfied, but there is a ment to which I refer Was made by great doubt about it. Ithink a test case would · whom we have all the greatest regard and who His Excellency in public, the only opport. be this:-Is every communication received and I am quite sure is wishing to do the best pos- unity of answering it is in public. His sent by the Administrative Head of the Sani- sible for the whole of the Colony and the whole Excellency gave as his reason for not carry tary Department to be available to this Board of the community.
ing out some of the recommendations that the or is he to be allowed to conduct and carry on commission Was not representative. In the a correspondence with the Government and the sense that no high officer of any service was on information contained in that correspondence the commission or the head of any " Princely not to be available to us? Is he virtually to be House the commission was not representative one of our servants? but I think in view of the hard work of the com. missioners the remark was somewhat uncalled for. In the sense that the commission consisted of two Chinese appointed by His Excellency to represent the whole Chinese community, one Englishmen appointed by His Excellency to re- present the foreign community, and two mem- bera ele. ted by the ratepayers of Hongkong, the statement was not even founded on fact. His Excellency has been uniformly kind and courteous since he came to Hongkong and it makes it a little more difficult to reconcile one's self to the solitary instance to the contrary.
The PRESIDENT-Having heard what Mt. Hooper stated with reference to this report of the architecte, is it the wish of the members that we discuss the bill this after. noon or shall we postpone the discussion'? Mr. HOOPER-That report deals only with the technical part. The architects have not attempted to interfere with certain principles. There are two or three principles in the bill which we could go on with. One is the con stitution of the Board. The bill proposes the severing from the jurisdiction of the Board certain powers and handing them over to the building authority. This point I think might
be taken and we also want a discussion as to the proposed Sanitary Department.
Mr.HUMPHREYS-It seems to meat this staga important that we should consider what is omitted from the bill as much as what is in it It is important because it will be the only come munication to the members of the Legislativ. Council of our views. Of course the report by the architects will give the members all the technical knowledge they may wish to have in regard to the bill as proposed by the Govern- ment and any remarks I may have to make will be confined to what is omitted from the bill. I shall simply say in passing that with the proposed constitution of the Board and transfer of certain duties to the Director of Public Works I am in agreement except in so far as a vote to the Medical Officer of Health is ccncerned. Only one point occurs to me, that the powers of the Director of Public Works are somewhat autocratic. For instance, the Building Authority can dictate to an owner the number of rooms he should have in a house, I say that the appeal from the Building Authority should be to the Sani- tary Board and not to the Governor in Council, because that appeal is like an appeal from Cæsar to Cæsar, and amounts to no appeal at all. I will go on with what is omitted from the bill. The Government have ignored the recommendations of the Com- missioners in regard to seotion 175 00 the ground that the Commissioners exceed. ed their powers, tut in connection with many other similar clauses where the Com. missioners gave more or less similar advice the Government have debated their views and in some cases accepted their recom- *mendations. The result of ignoring section 175 is that we shall be, as we have been, in possession of laws acting retrospectively which force on owners the costly reconstructions amcunting to twenty per cent of the capital value of the property without one single penny of compensation. The Director of Public Works in course of cross-examination before the Commission admitted that in cases where the property was mortgaged to four-fifths of its value it was equivalent to Government confisca tion. That is to say the whole margin of twenty per cent. was lost. If the owners received any extra rental for the enormous outlay there would be no very great hardship, but far from this being the case they received less rental than before because they had less accommodation to give. The ques- tion naturally arises: Why did the Govern- ment ignore all reference to sub section 1, section 175 ? The answer can only be--because | it involved the Government in enormoùs liabilities and the Government preferred to
no
The VICE PRESIDENT-Just one or two re- marks made by Mr. Humphreys to which I would like to make reply. In the first place he said this new bill conferred very great powers on the Building Authority in so far as it even permitted him to dictate the number of rooms allowed in a house Well, Sir, the foundation for that clause in the new bill is the report by the committee which copsidered the onbicle question and in that report paragraph seven states the Building Authority should have power by law to require that in case should a certain number of subdivisions be exceeded on a floor. That committee con- sisted of the Colonial Secretary. myself, the Medical Officer of Health and five naofficial members, 60 that the officials C&58 were in 8 distinot minority. With regard to the appeal to the Governor in Council I cannot quite understand what the objection to it is. I presume it is because I have a seat on the Executive Council, but I have also a seat on this Board. If my powers of persuasion are so great in the case of the Executive Council it may be assumed that they would be equally great when I come before this Board (laughter, but perhaps the members of the Board are more stabborn (laughter),
in that
Mr. HOOPER-You have only to convince one man in the Executive Council. It is not taken by a majority.
The VICE-PRESID NT-Ob, yes as a rule. Section 175 bas ben amepded already by the pas sing of Ordinance 107 of 1907, which made a very important modification in the powers containe in that section. With regard to the case which he specifically referred to, where he stated I admitted it amounted to onfiscation, my state- ment was that on the facts as stated by Mr. Humphreys that would amount to confisca tion, but of course whether these facts were as stated was not within my knowledge,
The PRESIDENT-If no other member has any general remarks to make on the bill I would move the suspension of the standing orders to allow the Board to go into Committee.
Mr. H OPER-I do not think we ought to go into Committee in this. There are questions of principles to discuss,
;
The PRESIDE T-It simply allows freer dis- cussion and less formality.
The Board then went into committee to consider the principles alluded to by Mr. Hooper, -the first being the constitution of the Board, as dealt with in section 4 of the Amending Ordinance,
Mr. HOOPER, after reading the section said: The difficulty which arises in the consideration
The PRESIDENT-I think not,
CAPTAIN LYONS—I should say not. He is fo be the head of the department with the Head of the Sanitary Department board to advise him.
Mr. HOOPER-Then I am against the re- ment be requested to do away with the Sanitary 6ommendation and would move that the Govern.
Department and make us as supreme as we were. prior to Ordinance 23 of 1903. The Governor apparently takes a little different view from the Captain Superintendent of Police if I read his speech aright He says he shall consult the Sanitary Board on any suggested changes in the sanitary byelaws; that he shall inform the board of any change in the organisation of the staff; that he shall inform them regarding any recommendations regarding leave or dis- mis al; and that he shall lay before them any complaint of the public regarding the staff.
Captain LYONS-Quite so!
一番
Mr. HOOPER-And therefore you think he should be permited to correspond with the Government about matters, and the information not to be available to the Board ?
Captain LYONS-No, I say it should be available to the Board but he should run his department subject to the advice of the Sanitary
Board.
Mr. HOOPER-And not instructions? You (say advice! If it is instructions I agree with
you.
Captain LYONG-You can say instructions. Mr. HOOPER-Then I agree with you. Mr. LAU CHU PAK-Then in that case the Board is supreme.
! Captain LYONS-If he disagreed from the Board he would submit his views to the Government, who would divide.
I do not see how a person who comes here once a fortnight could manage the department,
1
Mr. HOOPER-No, that is why we want a glorified secretary-a man of calibre, rank and distinction such as we have with us to-day
Mr. MESSER-You are very complimentary. Mr HOOPER That was our recommendation most distinctly. It was not proposed the Board should coms in the interval; and interfere. It comes back to what are to be the powers of the admini.trative head.
¥
CAPTAIN LYONS--They would be dra n up by the Government and submitted to the Board.
Mr. HOOPER-Is he to be under the instruc- tions of the Board? That is what it amounts to, Mr. SLADE-I gather he would be under the instractions of the board subject to the supreme instructions of the Government,
Mr. HOOPER-You mean the Government have the power to over-ride our instructions ?
Mr. SLADE-Yes.
The PRESIDENT-If be were under the control of the Board he would no longer be a Government offiser. It would be a Municipal Council.
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Mr. HOOPER--The old red her ing
Mr. IRVING-What would be the position of¬ an officer who fulfilled the orders of the Sanitary Board against the Government's wishes?
Mr. HOOPER-He could appeal to the Government,
No comments yet.
Private notes are available after approval.