February 26, 1898.)
Government Offices put forward by the Hon. Director of Public Works. At that meeting, after some amount of discussion, moved, and the Hon. Mr. Belilios seconded, that the scheme of the Hou. Director of Public Works be up. proved by the Committee and its adoption be re- commended to H.E. the Governor. It was not, sir, till after that resolution had been put and carried that anything was said by the lion, member on my left (Mr. Whitehead) about a protest.- (Hear, hear). When, sir, the hon. member wished to protest against the Hou. Mr. Belilios being allowed to vote upon this motion I turned to him and asked him his grounds. The grounds, he stated, were that the Hon. Mr. Belilios was directly pecuniarily interested in the scheme and by parliamentary practice was not entitled to vote. I could not accept the ipse dixit of the hon. member and I appealed to him to give me his authority and I also asked if he would assent to an adjournment in order that we might have his authority and discuss the protest before the protest was accepted by the chairman. Sir, the hon. member had no feeling of self suspicion that perhaps he might be in the wrong nor did the twilight of doubt fall upon his mind. To use a common expres sion, he
was absolutely cocksure he was right. Now, I am not such 211 old parlia- mentary hand as the hon. member and I felt that though he might be right I was entitled to know his authority and on what he based flat protest. Thereupon I proposed and the Hon. Mr. Belilios seconded, that the hon. member's protest should not be entered on the records of the meeting. Now, sir, what was my reason? My reason was plain enough. I had no objection to any protest qua protest, but I had certainly a great objection to any protest which had not been thoroughly discussed. I was not object ing to any protest, but to a protest without the grounds being stated. It was therefore clearly not with a view to stifle discussion, but rather to open up discussion, that moved that the protest be not recorded. That, sir, I think sufficiently disposes of the hon. member's private letter to the senior unofficial member in which ho says it looked like an attempt to stifle discussion ou an important question of principle. Now, sir, I have taken you in that meeting up to a certain point, and if I had had the opportunity at that meeting of seeing the protest of the hon. member I should at once have fixed upon a weak spot in it-and there is a weak spot in it. I wish this Council and the public to know that this protest which appears upon the record was not a protest handed in at that meeting, but handed in after- wards to the Hon. Mr: Ormsby and which 1 re- ceived a copy of next day, and which I was unable to reply to because it had been sent on to H.E. the Governor. Subsequently I had an oppor tunity of thinking over the matter. Had the hon. member given me an opportunity of examining his protest I should have argued in the first place that the subject having been referred to the Public Works Committee for their opinion it would have been quite sufficient for the Chairman to have simply reported t H.E. the Governor what views were held with- out any formal motion having been made. If no motion had been made there would have been no need to vote, and if no vote was necess- ary there was no room for a protest against roting. In the next place I should lure argued that May's Parliamentary Practice, in which rules are laid down that have been adopted to regulate to, some extent the procedure in yoting whether in Council or Committee, could not apply to a meeting which was called simply to express an opinion to H.E. the Governor ou a subject referred to them by him. My argu ment is that in order that
May's Practice should apply it would be necessary that the Committee should be entertaining a subject re- ferred to it by the Council itself. (Hear, hear.) And, further, had it been ruled that voting should take place and that my argument that "May's Practice. did not apply was not applicable, I should further have argued that as a fact the protest of the bon, member had Lo basis whatever in that authority. Now, sir, that protest in its elaborated form reads as follows:--
Mr. Whitehead desired that his protest should be recorded against the Hon. . R. Belilios, C.M.G., being permitted to secoud and vote, the hon. member being directly and pecuniarily in- terested in the question under consideration,
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CHINA OVERLAND TRADE REPORT.
149
HIS EXCELLENCY-Does any other member. wish to address the Council ?
Hon. T. H. WHITEHEAD-Sir, I will not detain the Council very long. The Publio Works Committee is a Committee of this Council, and I am still of opinion that no member of that committee should vote on a question in which he terested, notwithstanding the further extract.
pecuniarily in.
we have just heard read from " May's Parlia mentary Practice." With regard to the protest, I stated that it should be sent in that night or next morning. We did not finish until late. I was not asked by any member to submit that protest to any one. I was asked by the Hon. Treasurer not to send it in if I could not quote chapter and verse and the authorities on which I gave notice of that protest. It did seem to me a very unwarrantable action to move that my protest be not recorded, and notwithstand- ing the explanation I have heard from the Hon. Treasurer I still maintain I bad reason for the protest. The reasons for my proposing the present motion are embodied in the correspondence I have read.
the question being that the Government should opinion. We were not voting on
a Bill, purchase Beaconsfield,' a property owned by If I had had the least idea that I was in any the said Mr. Belilios, and Mr. Whitehead fur-way acting against any rules of parliamen- ther desired to refer, in support of this protest, tary practice I would not have voted at all. I to May's Parliamentary Practice,' 9th edition, simply voted because I am interested in public page 420, where the rule as to Members of Par-matters, and I did so independently of my liament is laid down in the plainest language. position as a member of the Public Works It reads In the Commous it is a distinct rule Committee. that no member who has a direct pecuniary in- terest in a question shall be allowed to vote upon it, but in order to operate as a disqualifi- cation this interest must be immediate and per- sonal and not merely of a general or remote character. On the 17th July, 1811, the rule was thus explained by Mr. Speaker Abbott: this interest must be a direct pecuniary interest and separately belonging to the persons whose votes were questioned and not in common with the rest of His Majesty's subjects or on a matter of State policy.' Almost im- mediately succeeding this extract, relied upon by the hon. member, I find these words: No instance is to be found in the journals in which the vote of a member has been disallowed upon questions of public policy." Now, sir, I take it the words "state policy" and "public policy" are for the pur- pose of what is written in this book synonymous. Now, sir, what does that mean? Undoubtedly a man directly pecuniarly interested in a motion may not vote upon it; but there are exceptions, and one of the exceptions is that he may vote provided it be a subject of state or public policy. It seems to me this clearly is a matter of state policy, and therefore comes within the exception which is con- tained in the extract upon which the hon. member based his protest and which is the very justification of Mr. Belilios having voted. Now, why do I say this is a matter of state or public policy? You have a scheme referred to the Com- mittee by the first public officer of the colony, to wit, H E. the Governor; the scheme emanates from a high public officer, the Director Public Works; it involves the expenditure of public money and it involves the erection of public offices. I cannot see how that can be brought into any other category than that of state or public policy. Is it a matter of private policy? There is no midway. I am sorry to have detained the Conncil so long and I much regret that I should have been brought to my legs by the attack of the hon. member. If he had only assented to the reasonable request to give the members an opportunity to consider the basis of his protest it would have been an- necessary.
The DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS--As chairman of that Committee I think a few words
from me would not be out of place. I thought at the time and I still think that protest was uncalled for and unnecessary, I reluctantly included it in the minutes, thinking the mover would be satisfied that it was recorded. Perhaps I would have acted better if I had not called for any voting on the question, and I can only pleaded my ignorance, not having had much to do with such matters before. I take it the
members of the Public Works Committee are selected on the ground of their ability to give good advice, and I do not think any one would impute unworthy motives to my hon. friend on my left (Mr. Belilios) when he voted in favour of that matter. I stated just now that the Hop. Mr. Belilios had no knowledge whatever that the purchase of Beaconsfield came into my scheme until the matter was referred to the Public Woks Committee for their opinion. I now beg to repeat that most emphatically. My hou friend on my left in recording his opinion committed this Conncil to no action whatever. There was nothing involved in the vote beyond an expression of opinion to H.E. the Governor.
Hon. E. R. BELILIOS-Sir, the reason I voted in the Fublic Works Committee when this ques- tion was brought before us was not only because it came before me in my capacity as a member of that committee, but as my hon. friend opposite the Colonial Treasure:) mentioned, it was a matter of public policy, and as I am interested in public matters I voted on this motion. I would have relieved my friends from discussing this matter bad I known at all that my action came within what has been quoted by the hon. member for the Chamber of Commerce. At that time I was under the impression that the matter was referred to us simply for our
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Hon. C. P. CHATER--Befo e the vote. is taken, being one of the members present at the meeting of the Committee I would like to say a- few words.
The COLONIAL SECRETARY—I think the hon. member is out of order. The mover of the resolution has replied.
HIS EXCELLENCY-Yes, I think you are out of order, because I asked if any other member wished to speak, and a considerable time elapsed, and ample opportunity was given.
Hon. C. P. CHATER-I was only going to say a few words, but it does not matter.
The vote was then taken and all the members voted against the motion with the exception of the proposer.
THE PRISON ORDINANCE AMENDMENT ORDINANCE.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL moved the first reading of a Bill entitled an. Ordinance to further amend the Prison Ordinance, 1885. The COLONIAL SECRETARY seconded. Bill read a first time, PREPARED OPIUM ORDINANCE AMENDMENT ORDINANCE.
the first reading of a Bill entitled an Ordinance The ATTORNEY-GENERAL-I beg to move
to amend the Prepared Opium (Divans) Ordin- ance, 1897. I shall ask hon. members to allow the standing orders to be suspended so that this Bill may be passed to-day. It is a Bill on which I ani sure there will be not the slightest contro- versy and as the New Opium Farm commences, be passed to-day. on the 1st March it is necessary that the Bill
A
The COLONIAL SECRETARY seconded.
ing orders being suspended, passed through its remaining stages
The Bill was read a first time, and the stand--
NATURALIZATION,
A Bill entitled an 'Ordinance for the Natural- ization of Leung P'ai Chi, alias Leung Chak Ch'ang, alias Leung Chung, was read a first time.
A Bill entitled an Ordinance for the Natural- ization of Wong Chuk-yau, alias Wong Mau, alias Wong Sun-in, was read a second time and passed through its remaining stages.
THE BRIBERY ORDINANCE,
A Bill entitled an Ordinance for the more effectual Punishment of Bribery and certain other Misdemeanours was read a second time and passed through its remaining stages.
THE JURY LIST. Jury List with closed doors.
The Council then proceeded to consider the
Major Sir John Carrington wishes it known to all ranks of both units of the Hongkong Volunteer Corps that the sum of $150 has been given by Hon. J. J. Bell-Irving, Mr. T. Jackson, and himself, for prizes for the 7-ponn- der R.M.L. and Machine Gun competitions this season.
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