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HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL

(Messrs. Joseph Y. S. CHAN, John M. K. WU, FUNG Kwong-cheung and MOK Ying-fan arrived at 2.33 p.m., 2.34 p.m., 2.35 p.m. and 2.36 p.m. respectively.)

MR. TONG KAM-BIU (in Cantonese):- Mr. Chairman, Mr. Hilton CHEONG-LEEN said that the number of illegal hawkers in the Apliu Street had reduced considerably. However, I do agree with what Mr. FUNG had said that in recent years we had failed to contain and control the illegal hawkers and in fact the situation had deteriorated. What is actually the problem? I hope that the relevant Select Committee can clarify the situation. There is another point I wish to make. In Apliu Street area, actually what they are selling is a lot of junk which are selected from nearby RCPs. They are not merchandise bought from factories. If people litter, it is an offence, and if they go to RCPs and try to salvage the items for sale, is that an offence as well? If we make it an offence, we might help to improve the situation. There is also a related problem. More and more illegal hawkers in the nearby Apliu Street area, like the Lai Chi Kok Road and Cheung Sha Wan Road are trading there, particularly on holidays and public holidays. Could the Select Committee review the situation and could the Department really try to tackle the question because if we try to control the situation there perhaps the hawking situation in Apliu Street could be improved to a certain extent?

MR. HILTON CHEONG-LEEN (in English):- Mr. Chairman, I'm happy to convey Mr. TONG Kam-biu's comments and the point he has just made to the Department. If not at the next meeting of the Markets and Street Traders Select Committee, then at the later meeting following, we will have a verbal report from the Department on the points which he has made. And what I have said in my reply to Mr. K. K. FUNG on the types of item which are sold there is something we cannot do anything about, because although it seems to Mr. TONG Kam-biu that it is junk, the fact is that since people are coming from all over Hong Kong to buy would mean that these items do have some saleable value. As I mentioned in the reply, Mr. Chairman, this has been a traditional market place for selling this type of merchandise. In any case, the Department does have this problem very much in mind and I am sure that any further input from Mr. TONG Kam-biu to improve the situation will always be welcome.

MR. MA LEE-WO (in Cantonese):- Mr. Chairman, from Mr. Hilton CHEONG-LEEN's reply, I fail to see a concrete and effective solution to the problem. There are a number of questions I would like to raise. Does that mean that in the next five years, the Department will not be able to come up with a concrete solution to the problem? My second point is: in the past two years, we have had a number of prosecutions, an average of 7 per month. Is this adequate from the Department's point of view and can enforcement action be stepped up? Thirdly: in the reply it is said that during lunch hour and also in the late afternoon GDTs are stationed there. Is this done everyday or is this done regularly? My last point is: there is a working group in Sham Shui Po, what exactly are its terms of reference and its function? Perhaps it is nothing but an administrative organization and can't really offer an effective solution to the problem. So, perhaps the Urban Council or the Select Committee can come up with some really concrete proposals to solve the

HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL

problem because with the changes of our society, fewer and fewer people are willing to accept the situation.

(Mr. Frederick K. K. FUNG arrived at 2.43 p.m.)

MR. HILTON CHEONG-LEEN (in English):- As far as the working group is concerned, Mr. Chairman, it is about to be formed. I cannot help Mr. MA Lee-wo on what the terms of reference are and how this working group will go about it. I can find out what they plan to do, and I am sure that as soon as we get more information, a report will be made to the Markets and Street Traders Committee of which Mr. Ma is a member. But I do believe that the setting up of this working group should be a step forward and it should have positive and more coordinated and effective results. The question as to whether the situation has improved or not, I think is a matter of perception. Judging from the report given by the Department as to the size of reduction of the number of unlicensed hawkers, I think that speaks for itself. The situation has improved. As to whether or not we had better wait for another five years' for results, I can only tell him that this is an on-going situation like many other hawkers blackspot areas all over Hong Kong that needs continued effort on the part of the Council with the Department as it executive arm. I would like to assure Mr. Ma that with all the resources at its disposal, the Urban Services Department will do its best to keep the situation under control. In fact, at the last Standing Committee of the Whole Council meeting the subject was raised and the Director of Urban Services said that every effort would be made to use the resources of the Department including the GDTs to keep the hawker situation under control in all the districts, including the Sham Shui Po District.

MR. FREDERICK K. K. FUNG (in Cantonese):- Mr. Chairman, I have two supplementary questions. Firstly, there are a number of figures in paragraph 3. Actually, we have been given a lot of statistics in the past as well, but the situation however seems to be deteriorating. So statistics are not really significant and meaningful. Last month, I and some District Board members went around the district and saw arrests made to illegal hawkers. There were many illegal hawkers all along the street and only three hawkers were arrested that naturally had become part of the statistics given here. Unless somethings are effectively done, statistics are meaningless and the arrests will become part of life to the hawkers and they cannot serve as deterrent effect. It seems that no concrete reply has been given to my question. The question is: have you reviewed to come up with an effective solution to solve the problem? In the last paragraph, you mentioned that the matter is being dealt with by a working party. Actually, one and half year ago and three years ago, similar answers were given. In other words, we try to delegate the responsibility to other groups to handle the problem, but we do not seem to be able to come up with any result. I wound like to press for any concrete actions which are being taken or to be taken in order to solve the problem. I think the present reply does not provide any concrete action to me to solve the problem.

MR. HILTON CHEONG-LEEN (in English):- Mr. Chairman, I have given quite a long reply to Mr. K. K. FUNG and I have given statistics. I think those statistics

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Page 85 of 95 Page 85 of 249 248 HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL (Messrs. Joseph Y. S. CHAN, John M. K. WU, FUNG Kwong-cheung and MOK Ying-fan arrived at 2.33 p.m., 2.34 p.m., 2.35 p.m. and 2.36 p.m. respectively.) MR. TONG KAM-BIU (in Cantonese):- Mr. Chairman, Mr. Hilton CHEONG-LEEN said that the number of illegal hawkers in the Apliu Street had reduced considerably. However, I do agree with what Mr. FUNG had said that in recent years we had failed to contain and control the illegal hawkers and in fact the situation had deteriorated. What is actually the problem? I hope that the relevant Select Committee can clarify the situation. There is another point I wish to make. In Apliu Street area, actually what they are selling is a lot of junk which are selected from nearby RCPs. They are not merchandise bought from factories. If people litter, it is an offence, and if they go to RCPs and try to salvage the items for sale, is that an offence as well? If we make it an offence, we might help to improve the situation. There is also a related problem. More and more illegal hawkers in the nearby Apliu Street area, like the Lai Chi Kok Road and Cheung Sha Wan Road are trading there, particularly on holidays and public holidays. Could the Select Committee review the situation and could the Department really try to tackle the question because if we try to control the situation there perhaps the hawking situation in Apliu Street could be improved to a certain extent? MR. HILTON CHEONG-LEEN (in English):- Mr. Chairman, I'm happy to convey Mr. TONG Kam-biu's comments and the point he has just made to the Department. If not at the next meeting of the Markets and Street Traders Select Committee, then at the later meeting following, we will have a verbal report from the Department on the points which he has made. And what I have said in my reply to Mr. K. K. FUNG on the types of item which are sold there is something we cannot do anything about, because although it seems to Mr. TONG Kam-biu that it is junk, the fact is that since people are coming from all over Hong Kong to buy would mean that these items do have some saleable value. As I mentioned in the reply, Mr. Chairman, this has been a traditional market place for selling this type of merchandise. In any case, the Department does have this problem very much in mind and I am sure that any further input from Mr. TONG Kam-biu to improve the situation will always be welcome. MR. MA LEE-WO (in Cantonese):- Mr. Chairman, from Mr. Hilton CHEONG-LEEN's reply, I fail to see a concrete and effective solution to the problem. There are a number of questions I would like to raise. Does that mean that in the next five years, the Department will not be able to come up with a concrete solution to the problem? My second point is: in the past two years, we have had a number of prosecutions, an average of 7 per month. Is this adequate from the Department's point of view and can enforcement action be stepped up? Thirdly: in the reply it is said that during lunch hour and also in the late afternoon GDTs are stationed there. Is this done everyday or is this done regularly? My last point is: there is a working group in Sham Shui Po, what exactly are its terms of reference and its function? Perhaps it is nothing but an administrative organization and can't really offer an effective solution to the problem. So, perhaps the Urban Council or the Select Committee can come up with some really concrete proposals to solve the HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL problem because with the changes of our society, fewer and fewer people are willing to accept the situation. (Mr. Frederick K. K. FUNG arrived at 2.43 p.m.) MR. HILTON CHEONG-LEEN (in English):- As far as the working group is concerned, Mr. Chairman, it is about to be formed. I cannot help Mr. MA Lee-wo on what the terms of reference are and how this working group will go about it. I can find out what they plan to do, and I am sure that as soon as we get more information, a report will be made to the Markets and Street Traders Committee of which Mr. Ma is a member. But I do believe that the setting up of this working group should be a step forward and it should have positive and more coordinated and effective results. The question as to whether the situation has improved or not, I think is a matter of perception. Judging from the report given by the Department as to the size of reduction of the number of unlicensed hawkers, I think that speaks for itself. The situation has improved. As to whether or not we had better wait for another five years' for results, I can only tell him that this is an on-going situation like many other hawkers blackspot areas all over Hong Kong that needs continued effort on the part of the Council with the Department as it executive arm. I would like to assure Mr. Ma that with all the resources at its disposal, the Urban Services Department will do its best to keep the situation under control. In fact, at the last Standing Committee of the Whole Council meeting the subject was raised and the Director of Urban Services said that every effort would be made to use the resources of the Department including the GDTs to keep the hawker situation under control in all the districts, including the Sham Shui Po District. MR. FREDERICK K. K. FUNG (in Cantonese):- Mr. Chairman, I have two supplementary questions. Firstly, there are a number of figures in paragraph 3. Actually, we have been given a lot of statistics in the past as well, but the situation however seems to be deteriorating. So statistics are not really significant and meaningful. Last month, I and some District Board members went around the district and saw arrests made to illegal hawkers. There were many illegal hawkers all along the street and only three hawkers were arrested that naturally had become part of the statistics given here. Unless somethings are effectively done, statistics are meaningless and the arrests will become part of life to the hawkers and they cannot serve as deterrent effect. It seems that no concrete reply has been given to my question. The question is: have you reviewed to come up with an effective solution to solve the problem? In the last paragraph, you mentioned that the matter is being dealt with by a working party. Actually, one and half year ago and three years ago, similar answers were given. In other words, we try to delegate the responsibility to other groups to handle the problem, but we do not seem to be able to come up with any result. I wound like to press for any concrete actions which are being taken or to be taken in order to solve the problem. I think the present reply does not provide any concrete action to me to solve the problem. MR. HILTON CHEONG-LEEN (in English):- Mr. Chairman, I have given quite a long reply to Mr. K. K. FUNG and I have given statistics. I think those statistics Page 85 of 95 Page 85 Page 86 Page 86 of 95
Baseline (Original)
Page 85 of 95 Page 85 of 249 248 HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL (Messrs. Joseph Y. S. CHAN, John M. K. WU, FUNG Kwong-cheung and MOK Ying-fan arrived at 2.33 p.m., 2.34 p.m., 2.35 p.m. and 2.36 p.m. respectively.) MR. TONG KAM-BIU (in Cantonese):-Mr. Chairman, Mr. Hilton CHEONG-LEEN said that the number of illegal hawkers in the Apliu Street had reduced considerably. However, I do agree with what Mr. FUNG had said that in recent years we had failed to contain and control the illegal hawkers and in fact the situation had deteriorated. What is actually the problem? I hope that the relevant Select Committee can clarify the situation. There is another point I wish to make. In Apliu Street area, actually what they are selling is a lot of junk which are selected from nearby RCPs. They are not merchandise bought from factories. If people litter, it is an offence, and if they go to RCPs and try to salvage the items for sale, is that an offence as well? If we make it an offence, we might help to improve the situation. There is also a related problem. More and more illegal hawkers in the nearby Apliu Street area, like the Lai Chi Kok Road and Cheung Sha Wan Road are trading there, particularly on holidays and public holidays. Could the Select Committee review the situation and could the Department really try to tackle the question because if we try to control the situation there perhaps the hawking situation in Apliu Street could be improved to a certain extent? MR. HILTON CHEONG-LEEN (in English):-Mr. Chairman, I'm happy to convey Mr. TONG Kam-biu's comments and the point he has just made to the Depart- ment. If not at the next meeting of the Markets and Street Traders Select Committee, then at the later meeting following, we will have a verbal report from the Department on the points which he has made. And what I have said in my reply to Mr. K. K. FUNG on the types of item which are sold there is something we cannot do anything about, because although it seems to Mr. TONG Kam-biu that it is junk, the fact is that since people are coming from all over Hong Kong to buy would mean that these items do have some saleable value. As I mentioned in the reply, Mr. Chairman, this has been a traditional market place for selling this type of merchandise. In any case, the Department does have this problem very much in mind and I am sure that any further input from Mr. TONG Kam-biu to improve the situation will always be welcome. MR. MA LEE-wo (in Cantonese):-Mr. Chairman, from Mr. Hilton CHEONG- LEEN'S reply, I fail to see a concrete and effective solution to the problem. There are a number of questions I would like to raise. Does that mean that in the next five years, the Department will not be able to come up with a concrete solution to the problem? My second point is: in the past two years, we have had a number of prosecutions, an average of 7 per month. Is this adequate from the Department's point of view and can enforcement action be stepped up? Thirdly: in the reply it is said that during lunch hour and also in the late afternoon GDTs are stationed there. Is this done everyday or is this done regularly? My last point is: there is a working group in Sham Shui Po, what exactly are its terms of reference and its function? Perhaps it is nothing but an administrative organization and can't really offer an effective solution to the problem. So, perhaps the Urban Council or the Select Committee can come up with some really concrete proposals to solve the HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL problem because with the changes of our society, fewer and fewer people are willing to accept the situation. (Mr. Frederick K. K. FUNG arrived at 2.43 p.m.) MR. HILTON CHEONG-LEEN (in English):-As far as the working group is concerned, Mr. Chairman, it is about to be formed. I cannot help Mr. MA Lee-wo on what the terms of reference are and how this working group will go about it. I can find out what they plan to do, and I am sure that as soon as we get more information, a report will be made to the Markets and Street Traders Committee of which Mr. Ma is a member. But I do believe that the setting up of this working group should be a step forward and it should have positive and more coordinated and effective results. The question as to whether the situation has improved or not, I think is a matter of perception. Judging from the report given by the Department as to the size of reduction of the number of unlicensed hawkers, I think that speaks for itself. The situation has improved. As to whether or not we had better wait for another five years' for results, I can only tell him that this is an on-going situation like many other hawkers blackspot areas all over Hong Kong that needs continued effort on the part of the Council with the Department as it executive arm. I would like to assure Mr. Ma that with all the resources at its disposal, the Urban Services Department will do its best to keep the situation under control. In fact, at the last Standing Committee of the Whole Council meeting the subject was raised and the Director of Urban Services said that every effort would be made to use the resources of the Department including the GDTs to keep the hawker situation under control in all the districts, including the Sham Shui Po District. MR. FREDERICK K. K. FUNG (in Cantonese):-Mr. Chairman, I have two supplementary questions. Firstly, there are a number of figures in paragraph 3. Actually, we have been given a lot of statistics in the past as well, but the situation however seems to be deteriorating. So statistics are not really significant and meaningful. Last month, I and some District Board members went around the district and saw arrests made to illegal hawkers. There were many illegal hawkers all along the street and only three hawkers were arrested that naturally had become part of the statistics given here. Unless somethings are effectively done, statistics are meaningless and the arrests will become part of life to the hawkers and they cannot serve as deterrent effect. It seems that no concrete reply has been given to my question. The question is: have you reviewed to come up with an effective solution to solve the problem? In the last paragraph, you mentioned that the matter is being dealt with by a working party. Actually, one and half year ago and three years ago, similar answers were given. In other words, we try to delegate the responsibility to other groups to handle the problem, but we do not seem to be able to come up with any result. I wound like to press for any concrete actions which are being taken or to be taken in order to solve the problem. I think the present reply does not provide any concrete action to me to solve the problem. MR. HILTON CHEONG-LEEN (in English):-Mr. Chairman, I have given quite a long reply to Mr. K. K. FUNG and I have given statistics. I think those statistics Page 85 of 95 Page 85Page 86 Page 86 of 95
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HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL

(Messrs. Joseph Y. S. CHAN, John M. K. WU, FUNG Kwong-cheung and MOK Ying-fan arrived at 2.33 p.m., 2.34 p.m., 2.35 p.m. and 2.36 p.m. respectively.)

MR. TONG KAM-BIU (in Cantonese):-Mr. Chairman, Mr. Hilton CHEONG-LEEN said that the number of illegal hawkers in the Apliu Street had reduced considerably. However, I do agree with what Mr. FUNG had said that in recent years we had failed to contain and control the illegal hawkers and in fact the situation had deteriorated. What is actually the problem? I hope that the relevant Select Committee can clarify the situation. There is another point I wish to make. In Apliu Street area, actually what they are selling is a lot of junk which are selected from nearby RCPs. They are not merchandise bought from factories. If people litter, it is an offence, and if they go to RCPs and try to salvage the items for sale, is that an offence as well? If we make it an offence, we might help to improve the situation. There is also a related problem. More and more illegal hawkers in the nearby Apliu Street area, like the Lai Chi Kok Road and Cheung Sha Wan Road are trading there, particularly on holidays and public holidays. Could the Select Committee review the situation and could the Department really try to tackle the question because if we try to control the situation there perhaps the hawking situation in Apliu Street could be improved to a certain extent?

MR. HILTON CHEONG-LEEN (in English):-Mr. Chairman, I'm happy to convey Mr. TONG Kam-biu's comments and the point he has just made to the Depart- ment. If not at the next meeting of the Markets and Street Traders Select Committee, then at the later meeting following, we will have a verbal report from the Department on the points which he has made. And what I have said in my reply to Mr. K. K. FUNG on the types of item which are sold there is something we cannot do anything about, because although it seems to Mr. TONG Kam-biu that it is junk, the fact is that since people are coming from all over Hong Kong to buy would mean that these items do have some saleable value. As I mentioned in the reply, Mr. Chairman, this has been a traditional market place for selling this type of merchandise. In any case, the Department does have this problem very much in mind and I am sure that any further input from Mr. TONG Kam-biu to improve the situation will always be welcome.

MR. MA LEE-wo (in Cantonese):-Mr. Chairman, from Mr. Hilton CHEONG- LEEN'S reply, I fail to see a concrete and effective solution to the problem. There are a number of questions I would like to raise. Does that mean that in the next five years, the Department will not be able to come up with a concrete solution to the problem? My second point is: in the past two years, we have had a number of prosecutions, an average of 7 per month. Is this adequate from the Department's point of view and can enforcement action be stepped up? Thirdly: in the reply it is said that during lunch hour and also in the late afternoon GDTs are stationed there. Is this done everyday or is this done regularly? My last point is: there is a working group in Sham Shui Po, what exactly are its terms of reference and its function? Perhaps it is nothing but an administrative organization and can't really offer an effective solution to the problem. So, perhaps the Urban Council or the Select Committee can come up with some really concrete proposals to solve the

HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL

problem because with the changes of our society, fewer and fewer people are willing to accept the situation.

(Mr. Frederick K. K. FUNG arrived at 2.43 p.m.)

MR. HILTON CHEONG-LEEN (in English):-As far as the working group is concerned, Mr. Chairman, it is about to be formed. I cannot help Mr. MA Lee-wo on what the terms of reference are and how this working group will go about it. I can find out what they plan to do, and I am sure that as soon as we get more information, a report will be made to the Markets and Street Traders Committee of which Mr. Ma is a member. But I do believe that the setting up of this working group should be a step forward and it should have positive and more coordinated and effective results. The question as to whether the situation has improved or not, I think is a matter of perception. Judging from the report given by the Department as to the size of reduction of the number of unlicensed hawkers, I think that speaks for itself. The situation has improved. As to whether or not we had better wait for another five years' for results, I can only tell him that this is an on-going situation like many other hawkers blackspot areas all over Hong Kong that needs continued effort on the part of the Council with the Department as it executive arm. I would like to assure Mr. Ma that with all the resources at its disposal, the Urban Services Department will do its best to keep the situation under control. In fact, at the last Standing Committee of the Whole Council meeting the subject was raised and the Director of Urban Services said that every effort would be made to use the resources of the Department including the GDTs to keep the hawker situation under control in all the districts, including the Sham Shui Po District.

MR. FREDERICK K. K. FUNG (in Cantonese):-Mr. Chairman, I have two supplementary questions. Firstly, there are a number of figures in paragraph 3. Actually, we have been given a lot of statistics in the past as well, but the situation however seems to be deteriorating. So statistics are not really significant and meaningful. Last month, I and some District Board members went around the district and saw arrests made to illegal hawkers. There were many illegal hawkers all along the street and only three hawkers were arrested that naturally had become part of the statistics given here. Unless somethings are effectively done, statistics are meaningless and the arrests will become part of life to the hawkers and they cannot serve as deterrent effect. It seems that no concrete reply has been given to my question. The question is: have you reviewed to come up with an effective solution to solve the problem? In the last paragraph, you mentioned that the matter is being dealt with by a working party. Actually, one and half year ago and three years ago, similar answers were given. In other words, we try to delegate the responsibility to other groups to handle the problem, but we do not seem to be able to come up with any result. I wound like to press for any concrete actions which are being taken or to be taken in order to solve the problem. I think the present reply does not provide any concrete action to me to solve the problem.

MR. HILTON CHEONG-LEEN (in English):-Mr. Chairman, I have given quite a long reply to Mr. K. K. FUNG and I have given statistics. I think those statistics

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