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number of years on a phased basis. It is unrealistic to think it could be otherwise. The cost of improvement is also going to be high.
I don't, therefore, think that there has been unwarranted delay. To establish sound and rational foundations for hawker administration in general deserves very careful consideration. Although I appreciate the frustration of Members and frustration I too experience, I believe we are indeed moving forward and that this process cannot practically be speeded up.
MR. WALTER M. SULKE (in English):—Mr. Chairman, I would like to thank VCUC for the very comprehensive answer. But I am a little puzzled by the phrase 'no unwarranted delay'. The Government's Working Group she refers to, is now sitting for more than 9 months which is long enough to produce a baby, it seems long enough to produce a paper. Now, since the GDT problem is basic to the recommendation from our Working Group, do you think that the Government really understands the urgency and necessity for the very prompt action in this matter?
DR. THE HON. ELSIE TU (in English): Mr. Chairman, Mr. SULKE is asking me for opinion on what the Government thinks and what the Government is doing. Well, if I am now allowed to give my opinion, I think that they are not fully aware of the serious situation but we are trying to make them understand it.
MR. HILTON CHEONG-LEEN (in English):—Mr. Chairman, two supplementaries. Firstly, has the number of hawkers licensed and unlicensed been increasing or decreasing over the past few years? The second supplementary, could VCUC on our behalf convey to the Government we are very much concerned at the pace to which the Government Working Group is proceeding and we very much like the Government expedite the whole process of coming up with the final solution as quickly as possible in conjunction with the Urban Council's effort.
DR. THE HON. ELSIE TU (in English):—Concerning the reduction or otherwise of hawkers, I can't give exact figures but there has been a reduction in licensed hawkers and there has been a considerable reduction in unlicensed hawkers after opening new markets. Many of them have been cleared off the streets. I would say that the reduction of unlicensed hawkers may be in the region of 2000. But I may get more exact figures if you wish them. You are asking us to press the Government. While I have continuously been sending messages through the CUC to the Chief Secretary, I have been writing to the Municipal Services Branch and I have been talking to the Assistant Director (Hawkers) continuously and it must be understood there are problems and I might just mention some of these problems, perhaps it will satisfy members that there are problems. For example, they have to consider the whole system of staff grades and also special allowances for some of the duties which they have to undertake; they have to consider the whole system of the organization of the GDT and what training they must get; they have to consider the role of the Police in the structure; they have to consider even the possibility of new uniforms;
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and the leadership: who is going to lead the GDT; they have to consider the land and I am not satisfied that land is being given sufficient consideration in this respect. There have been inter-departmental meetings and we have been asked for additional information by the Government and information has been passing back and forward. So I can assure you that I have not been idle on it, neither has my committee been idle on it.
MR. HILTON CHEONG-LEEN (in English):—Mr. Chairman, is it generally recognized that when Government considered problems especially the various problems as mentioned by VCUC, the Government can take years to consider such problems?
CHAIRMAN (in English):—This supplementary is irrelevant, but you can answer it if you can.
DR. THE HON. ELSIE TU (in English):—Mr. Chairman, I can't speak for all Government's proposals and whatever they are thinking about, but I can only say that they have not in the past considered hawking as an important matter as it really is, and I would like the Government to understand that more people depend on hawking than depend on some of our transport services and therefore we must press for quick action; and I hope that the Members of this Council can help me to do so.
DR. PHILIP C. K. KWOK (in English):—I have just one short question. Can we use this current labour shortage problem to get rid of this hawkers problem once and for all?
DR. THE HON. ELSIE TU (in English):—That is outside my purview Mr. Chairman, but I don't know whether we want to get rid of hawkers because as I said more people depend on hawkers for their daily necessities than on public transport. So it is not our intention to get rid of hawkers, but what we would like to encourage is for younger men to go into industry. But unless we can provide some training for them, I don't think we are going to encourage young men to enter into unskilled labour in factories because they are not willing to take the low salary. I think we can train them and it will be better but I really think that this is outside Urban Council's purview.
9. MR. FREDERICK K. K. FUNG asked the following question (in Cantonese):—The Urban Services Department had already planned to redevelop Sham Shui Po Market in early 1980. The redevelopment plan was introduced to Members of the Sham Shui Po District Board in August 1983. According to the paper, redevelopment works would commence in April 1984 and be completed in early 1987. However, in the Capital Works Programme for 1983, the commencement date for the UC Sham Shui Po Complex had been changed to July 1985. The commencement date was further changed to June 1986 in the Programme for 1984, to April 1987 in the Programme for 1985, to July 1987 in the Programme for 1985...
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number of years on a phased basis. It is unrealistic to think it could be
otherwise. The cost of improvement is also going to be high.
I don't, therefore, think that there has been unwarranted delay. To establish sound and rational foundations for hawker administration in general deserves very careful consideration. Although I appreciate the frustration of Members and frustration I too experience, I believe we are indeed moving forward and that this process cannot practically be speeded up.
MR. WALTER M. SULKE (in English):-Mr. Chairman, I would like to thank VCUC for the very comprehensive answer. But I am a little puzzled by the phrase 'no unwarranted delay'. The Government's Working Group she refers to, is now sitting for more than 9 months which is long enough to produce a baby, it seems long enough to produce a paper. Now, since the GDT problem is basic to the recommendation from our Working Group, do you think that the Government really understands the urgency and necessity for the very prompt action in this matter?
DR. THE HON. ELSIE TU (in English): Mr. Chairman, Mr. SULKE is asking me for opinion on what the Government thinks and what the Government is doing. Well, if I am now allowed to give my opinion, I think that they are not fully aware of the serious situation but we are trying to make them understand it.
MR. HILTON CHEONG-LEEN (in English):-Mr. Chairman, two supplementaries. Firstly, has the number of hawkers licensed and unlicensed been increasing or decreasing over the past few years? The second supplementary, could VCUČ on our behalf conveys to the Government we are very much concerned at the pace to which the Government Working Group is proceeding and we very much like the Government expedite the whole process of coming up the final solution as quickly as possible in conjunction with the Urban Council's effort.
DR. THE HON. ELSIE TU (in English):-Concerning the reduction or otherwise of hawkers, I can't give exact figures but there has been a reduction in licensed hawkers and there has been a considerable reduction in unlicensed hawkers after opening new markets. Many of them have been cleared off the streets. I would say that the reduction of unlicensed hawkers may be in the region of 2000. But I may get more exact figures if you wish them. You are asking us to press the Government. While I have continuously been sending messages through the CUC to the Chief Secretary, I have been writing to the Municipal Services Branch and I have been talking to the Assistant Director (Hawkers) continuously and it must be understood there are problems and I might just mention some of these problems, perhaps it will satisfy members that there are problems. For example, they have to consider the whole system of staff grades and also special allowances for some of the duties which they have to under- take; they have to consider the whole system of the organization of the GDT and what training they must get; they have to consider the role of the Police in the structure; they have to consider even the possibility of new uniforms;
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and the leadership: who is going to lead the GDT; they have to consider the and and I am not satisfied that land is being given sufficient consideration in this respect. There have been inter-departmental meetings and we have been asked for additional information by the Government and information has been passing back and forward. So I can assure you that I have not been idle on it, neither has my committee been idle on it.
MR. HILTON CHEONG-LEEN (in English):-Mr. Chairman, is it generally recognized that when Government considered problems especially the various problems as mentioned by VCUC, the Government can take years to consider
such problems?
CHAIRMAN (in English):-This supplementary is irrelevant, but you can answer
it if you can.
DR. THE HON. ELSIE TU (in English):-Mr. Chairman, I can't speak for all Government's proposals and whatever they are thinking about, but I can only say that they have not in the past considered hawking as an important matter as it really is, and I would like the Government to understand that more people depend on hawking than depend on some of our transport services and therefore we must press for quick action; and I hope that the Members of this Council can help me to do so.
DR. PHILIP C. K. Kwok (in English):—I have just one short question. Can we use this current labour shortage problem to get rid of this hawkers problem once and for all?
DR. THE HON. ELSIE TU (in English):-That is outside my purview Mr. Chairman, but I don't know whether we want to get rid of hawkers because as I said more people depend on hawkers for their daily necessities than on public transport. So it is not our intention to get rid of hawkers, but what we would like to encourage is for younger men to go into industry. But unless we can provide some training for them, I don't think we are going to encourage young men to enter into unskilled labour in factories because they are not willing to take the low salary. I think we can train them and it will be better but I really think that this is outside Urban Council's purview.
9. MR. FREDERICK K. K. FUNG asked the following question (in Can- tonese):―The Urban Services Department had already planned to redevelop Sham Shui Po Market in early 1980. The redevelopment plan was introduced to Members of the Sham Shui Po District Board in August 1983. According to the paper, redevelopment works would commence in April 1984 and be completed in early 1987. However, in the Capital Works Programme for 1983, the commence- ment date for the UC Sham Shui Po Complex had been changed to July 1985. The commencement date was further changed to June 1986 in the Programme for 1984, to April 1987 in the Programme for 1985, to July 1987 in the Programme
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