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to work and lifesaving qualifications of temporary lifeguards somewhat lower than those permanent lifeguards? If this is the case, will that affect the safety of swimmers at the beaches and swimming pools?

MR. SAMUEL P. W. WONG (in Cantonese):—Mr. Chairman, the qualification, experience and standard of permanent and temporary lifeguards are the same. Of course, permanent lifeguards are our staff and are paid by us whilst temporary lifeguards are employed during swimming season. Perhaps there may be some slight differences in terms of the scope of work but the responsibility in general is the same. During peak hours, we have adequate honorary lifeguards to service the swimmers as well.

MR. MAN SAI-CHEONG (in Cantonese):—Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask a supplementary question. Although the entry qualification of permanent and temporary lifeguard is the same, permanent lifeguards have received certain training even during non-peak times. As the requirement of safety in terms of providing safety precautions is becoming higher and higher, we should ensure that all lifeguards are of a higher calibre. In these circumstances, do we have any more specific standards so that we can be assured that the present arrangement is adequate?

MR. FAN KAM-PING (in Cantonese):—Mr. Chairman, please allow me to answer in the capacity of Vice-Chairman of the Recreation Select Committee. Is it in order?

CHAIRMAN (in English):—Probably it isn't, but go on anyway.

MR. FAN KAM-PING (in Cantonese):—Mr. Chairman, the entry qualification of the permanent and the temporary lifeguards is the same earlier as mentioned by our Select Committee Chairman. Moreover, temporary lifeguards have to undergo a skill test which is very stringent and demanding similar to those for permanent lifeguards. I have met a reporter of the press who told me that his younger brother who had undergone a skill test for temporary lifeguards felt extremely exhausted afterwards. Besides, after we have employed the temporary lifeguards, the department will give them a two or three days orientation regarding lifesaving skills. Their qualification is more or less the same as permanent lifeguards. As honorary lifeguards only play a supplementary role, they do not have to undergo any skill test.

MR. FREDERICK K. K. FUNG (in Cantonese):—Mr. Chairman, to my understanding, within these five years, the number of swimming pools managed by the Urban Council has increased but the number of permanent lifeguards has decreased. If I am wrong, I hope that I can be corrected. As far as I know the number of permanent lifeguards has dropped by more than 20% within the past five years. There is the tendency that the establishment of the permanent lifeguards be reduced. I would like to know the reason for reduction, the principle and the value judgement involved. Have we undergone a general review after these five years?

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CHAIRMAN (in English): K. K., the supplementary is outside the terms of original question, I am afraid. However, if I exercise my judgement, do you wish to answer?

MR. SAMUEL P. W. WONG (in Cantonese): Mr. Chairman, as I have said, the qualifications and experience of the permanent and temporary lifeguards are the same. Of course, permanent lifeguards are paid 12 months a year while temporary lifeguards are not. With the principle of not jeopardizing the safety of the swimmers, I think the scheme is worth introducing.

MR. FAN KAM-PING (in Cantonese):—Mr. Chairman, may be I can answer Mr. FUNG's question. Although we have more and more swimming pools, the number of lifeguards has not decreased as mentioned by Mr. FUNG. In 1983 we had 10 swimming pools, while in 1987, we had 13. In 1983 the number of permanent lifeguards stood at 160 while at present the number of permanent lifeguards stands at 142. As regards those temporary lifeguard who have the same entry qualification and have to undergo skill tests, in 1983 we employed 170. At present we have 293.

MR. JOSEPH Y. S. CHAN (in Cantonese):—Mr. Chairman, the Chairman and the Vice-Chairman of the Select Committee have stressed one point i.e. the qualification, quality and effectiveness of temporary and permanent lifeguards are the same. If there are no major differences, does it mean that in order to save money we can scrap all the permanent lifeguards and replace them with all temporary lifeguards. If that is the case, will the safety of swimmers be jeopardized?

MR. SAMUEL P. W. WONG (in Cantonese):—Mr. Chairman, I would like to stress one point that according to what Mr. CHAN has said if we use more money to employ more people then nobody will be drowned. First of all, I have to say that we definitely need permanent lifeguards who are our core staff in terms of management and training. For permanent lifeguards, there must be a definite number at the pools and beaches. As regards temporary and honorary lifeguards, we also need a considerable number. These two groups of staff are complementary to each other, which is a question of management. If Mr. CHAN is still interested, I can give him a written reply.

8. MR. JOSEPH Y. S. CHAN asked the following question (in Cantonese):—In view of the negative interest rates rules which took effect on 10 March 1988, has the Council been exempted from the rules by the Hong Kong Association of Banks? If not, how much will the Council lose and what possible methods may be taken to avoid such charges?

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