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The Secretary for Health and Welfare on behalf of the Government ruled in 1985 that the Municipal Services Branch was the policy branch for floating refuse. Mr. G. BARNES, the then Secretary for Municipal Services stated in 1985 that since the solution was dogged with problems of territorial jurisdiction and financial relationships, he had decided that he would not for the time being ask the Council to consider taking on responsibility for marine refuse collection.
In view of the fact that there is no change in the situation since 1985, the Department considers that there would be no advantage to the public for Council to take over responsibility for marine refuse collection, and therefore recommends that the status quo continues.
MR. HILTON CHEONG-LEEN (in English):—Mr. Chairman, as we are all aware that the Urban Services Department, the executive arm of the Council, has the responsibility to prevent refuse on land being washed down into the harbour and it exercises its responsibilities through various means as enumerated by Dr. LEUNG. Now I gathered from the 1984 Environmental Pollution Agency Report and also confirmed by a Report prepared by Mr. Dennis Hodgson on floating refuse in Victoria Harbour. The main point of refuse in harbour is that it is an impossible problem to solve without tackling the problem of generation of rubbish on land at the same time. Could I ask Dr. LEUNG to what extent is the Government putting a full resource behind the Urban Council in its attempt to reduce the generation of refuse and subsequently that refuse finding its way into the Victoria Harbour?
MR. RONALD D. B. LEUNG (in Cantonese):—Mr. Chairman, as I have mentioned there are six major measures undertaken by the Urban Council and the Urban Services Department to prevent refuse on land being washed down into the harbour. However, Members are aware that not all marine refuse is land generated. The USD has done its very best to prevent land refuse from being washed down into the harbour and has achieved its goal in handling this problem to a great extent. There is no way USD could collect the refuse being disposed of by vessels into the sea and those floating on the sea.
MR. HILTON CHEONG-LEEN (in English):—Mr. Chairman, the Urban Council is fully fulfilling its responsibility with all the resources at the disposal but the main problem is from the generation of rubbish which comes from ships within the harbour. Am I correct in that interpretation?
DR. RONALD D. B. LEUNG (in Cantonese): Mr. Chairman, I am aware and of the opinion that the floating refuse problem could be dealt with more effectively. However, given the present terms of reference and Statement of Aims of the Urban Council, we cannot deal with marine refuse. As I have just mentioned, because of limited resources, such as lack of adequate facilities, watchpoints, radio control and marine expertise etc., it would put us at a great disadvantage if we undertake the work of marine refuse collection. Unless other better arrangements could be worked out between other departments, there is no other way to solve it for the time being.
MR. WALTER M. SULKE (in English):—Mr. Chairman, I think the good lord is angry at those answers as well by the sound of it (The speaker was referring to thunder then being heard). I am very very sorry at my friend's very negative attitude. I sat on a working party for two years, on which I was the only civilian and we came to the conclusion that not only 80% of the stuff in the harbour came from the land, but it was not just the Urban Services Department and the Drainage Department but the whole combination of Government Departments who must cooperate. We also came to the conclusion that the Marine Department cannot really be expected to clean the harbour because they are sea captains and sea surveyors. The expertise in cleaning lies in the USD. And I think it is one thing for the Department to throw their hands up and say 'No, we won't do this.' It is quite another for this Council to say 'OK', because you say we won't do it, we won't do it either. I am coming to the question: That shouldn't this Council say 'no' to the Department and say when we first started we also didn't have any refuse collection vehicles. We could have just said that we can't clean the street because we haven't got the refuse collection vehicles. We have got to buy the stuff, we have got to go there and really do it. Shouldn't we do it?
DR. RONALD D. B. LEUNG (in Cantonese):—Mr. Chairman, I am aware that within the Council, there are a number of Councillors, like Mr. Ronnie WONG, Mr. SULKE and now Mr. CHEONG-LEEN who are in favour of taking some positive actions to improve the situation. As to whether we should apply more pressure to the USD to change the existing policy which was reviewed in 1985 or not, I am in favour of having another review of the policy now. I hope that the Department will come up with some new suggestions and have discussions with other Government Departments in order to work out other means of improving the situation. For example, the EPCOM has established the Drainage Department. I hope other departments can come up with some similar break-through measures.
MR. JOSEPH Y. S. CHAN (in Cantonese):—Mr. Chairman, I personally also think that the Marine Department is not the expert in cleansing of marine refuse. As they are not the expert in handling the problem, it becomes more and more serious. The situation in the harbour deteriorates. I think the expertise of cleansing of refuse including marine refuse lies in the USD. In 1983 and 1985, we discussed the matter. I believe there is now some change in the situation since then. I think it is time for a review of the problem. For instance, it has been mentioned in the reply that our jurisdiction can not extend to Tsuen Wan, Kwai Chung or any NT areas. However, the Regional Council is now established, who can be responsible for marine refuse collection in the Regional Council area. There is also a Joint UC/RC Keep Hong Kong Clean Steering Committee and I believe we can work together to keep our harbour clean as well. I wonder if the Council could in
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Page 170 of 182
HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL
331
330
HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL
The Secretary for Health and Welfare on behalf of the Government ruled in 1985 that the Municipal Services Branch was the policy branch for floating refuse. Mr. G. BARNES, the then Secretary for Municipal Services stated in 1985 that since the solution was dogged with problems of territorial jurisdiction and financial relationships, he had decided that he would not for the time being ask the Council to consider taking on responsibility for marine refuse collection.
In view of the fact that there is no change in the situation since 1985, the Department considers that there would be no advantage to the public for Council to take over responsibility for marine refuse collection, and therefore recommends that the status quo continues.
MR. HILTON CHEONG-LEEN (in English):-Mr. Chairman, as we are all aware that the Urban Services Department, the executive arm of the Council, has the responsibility to prevent refuse on land being washed down into the harbour and it exercises its responsibilites through various means as enumerated by Dr. LEUNG. Now I gathered from the 1984 Environmental Pollution Agency Report and also confirmed by a Report prepared by Mr. Dennis Hodgson on floating refuse in Victoria Harbour. The main point of refuse in harbour is that it is an impossible problem to solve without tackling the problem of generation of rubbish on land at the same time. Could I ask Dr. LEUNG to what extent is the Government putting a full resource behind the Urban Council in its attempt to reduce the generation of refuse and subsequently that refuse finding its way into the Victoria Harbour?
MR. RONALD D. B. LEUNG (in Cantonese):-Mr. Chairman, as I have mentioned there are six major measures undertaken by the Urban Council and the Urban Services Department to prevent refuse on land being washed down into the harbour. However, Members are aware that not all marine refuse is land generated. The USD has done its very best to prevent land refuse from being washed down into the harbour and has achieved its goal in handling this problem to a great extent. There is no way USD could collect the refuse being disposed of by vessels into the sea and those floating on the sea.
MR. HILTON CHEONG-LEEN (in English):—Mr. Chairman, the Urban Council is fully fulfilling its responsibility with all the resources at the disposal but the main problem is from the generation of rubbish which comes from ships within the harbour. Am I correct in that interpretation?
DR. RONALD D. B. LEUNG (in Cantonese): Mr. Chairman, I am aware and of the opinion that the floating refuse problem could be dealt with more effectively. However, given the present terms of reference and Statement of Aims of the Urban Council, we cannot deal with marine refuse. As I have just mentioned, because of limited resources, such as lack of adequate facilities, watchpoints, radio control and marine expertise etc., it would put us at a great disadvantage if we undertake the work of marine refuse collection. Unless other
better arrangements could be worked out between other departments, there is no other way to solve it for the time being.
MR. WALTER M. SULKE (in English):—Mr. Chairman, I think the good lord is angry at those answers as well by the sound of it (The speaker was referring to thunder them being heard). I am very very sorry at my friend's very negative attitude. I sat on a working party for two years, on which I was the only civilian and we came to the conclusion that not only 80% of the stuff in the harbour came from the land, but it was not just the Urban Services Department and the Drainage Department but the whole combination of Government Departments who must cooperate. We also came to the conclusion that the Marine Department cannot really be expected to clean the harbour because they are sea captains and sea surveyors. The expertise in cleaning lies in the USD. And I think it is one thing for the Department to throw their hands up and say 'No, we won't do this.' It is quite another for this Council to say 'OK', because you say we won't do it, we won't do it either. I am coming to the question: That shouldn't this Council say 'no' to the Department and say when we first started we also didn't have any refuse collection vehicles. We could have just said that we can't clean the street because we haven't got the refuse collection vehicles. We have got to buy the stuff, we have to go there and really do it. Shouldn't we do it?
DR. RONALD D. B. LEUNG (in Cantonese):—Mr. Chairman, I am aware that within the Council, there are a number of Councillors, like Mr. Ronnie WONG, Mr. SULKE and now Mr. CHEONG-LEEN who are in favour of taking some positive actions to improve the situation. As to whether we should apply more pressure to the USD to change the existing policy which was reviewed in 1985 or not, I am in favour of having another review of the policy now. I hope that the Department will come up with some new suggestions and have discussions with other Government Departments in order to work out other means of improving the situation. For example, the EPCOM has established the Drainage Department. I hope other departments can come up with some similar break-through measures.
MR. JOSEPH Y. S. CHAN (in Cantonese):-Mr. Chairman, I personally also think that the Marine Department is not the expert in cleansing of marine refuse. As they are not the expert in handling the problem, it becomes more and more serious. The situation in the harbour deteriorates. I think the expertise of cleansing of refuse including marine refuse lies in the USD. In 1983 and 1985, we discussed the matter. I believe there is now some change in the situation since then. I think it is time for a review of the problem. For instance, it has been mentioned in the reply that our jurisdiction can not extend to Tsuen Wan, Kwai Chung or any NT areas. However, the Regional Council is now established, who can be responsible for marine refuse collection in the Regional Council area. There is also a Joint UC/RC Keep Hong Kong Clean Steering Committee and I believe we can work together to keep our harbour clean as well. I wonder if the Council could in
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