Page 63 of 201
86
HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL
necessary to obtain legal assistance to advise, and in some cases, to defend our workers. I am not claiming that our men are always guiltless, but I am claiming that this is a real threat to the efficiency of our G.D. Teams.
10. Recently, after making a statement to the Kwun Tong District Board, which was reported in the press, I found many people approaching me to say that what I had written was the truth, but that everyone was afraid to say so openly. What I had emphasised was the connection between triads and some police. I can understand that some people are vulnerable and afraid to speak out. But having passed through the trauma of frame-up in 1966 for speaking up on corruption, especially in the police, I am prepared to face what comes when I say that I do not consider the police force at present capable of dealing with the triad problem.
11. I should like to make a few observations on the recommendations of this document by the Fight Crime Committee:
(1) The report gives a fair assessment of the triad threat, but completely omits to mention police involvement.
(2) I would be against putting young convicted offenders under police supervision as proposed: what they need is rehabilitation.
(3) I would object to prosecuting young persons for being, or claiming to be triad members, unless they had committed some crime: they should be prosecuted only for the crime. Charges of membership are often framed up to get statistics.
(4) I believe that a scheme for renouncing triad membership is necessary, but police should not be involved in this because no one would dare to approach the police for this purpose.
(5) I agree with heavier fines and longer terms of imprisonment for triads provided that it is for the big fish and not the small fry.
(6) I agree with the idea of a task force and grand jury system, provided they are independent of the police, and that actual prosecution is decided by a body other than the Legal Department.
12. In short, I agree that the triad problem should be tackled relentlessly wherever big fish are involved, but I do not believe that the police should handle the matter. This does not mean total lack of confidence in the police, but it does mean that they have proved in the past their unwillingness to admit to the size of the problem and to deal with it.
13. As triad activities and corruption work hand in hand, I would emphasize that the ICAC or some other body independent of the police and the Legal Department should have this jurisdiction, and that they should train their own personnel. A safeguard against abuse of power by the ICAC would be provided by the so-called grand jury system.
14. This critical situation requires drastic solutions, but we must ensure that there are checks and balances on abuse of power by any of the bodies concerned.
With these words, I second the motion.
CHAIRMAN (in English): The motion has been proposed and seconded and 13 of the Councillors, including myself, have put their names down to speak in the motion.
This motion I consider is most timely as the Urban Council, particularly in its dealings with hawkers, has a day-to-day concern with this matter. The word 'triad', I believe is somewhat outmoded as we are basically dealing with little more than people who are members of criminal gangs. They and their kind certainly are not restricted to Hong Kong but I do not think that the name 'triad' need cloud the issue. We are talking of organized thuggery.
There is little doubt that organized criminal gangs in any city pursue their nefarious activities, knowing well that their victims fear reprisals from fellow villains if they give evidence leading to their conviction. Even if this threat in many cases is illusory. I am equally sure that many victims and ordinary citizens would be quite happy to tell all they know about gang activities if they could do so with total confidentiality both in and out of court and be sure that they were not identified and thus safe from being victimized.
Whilst the discussion document makes it quite clear that it is very difficult to reach the 'Mr. Big's', the 'Mr. Big's' certainly do not survive without the small fry providing them with their ill-gotten gains. Remove the people at the bottom of the heap and I am sure that the heap will in the long run collapse bringing those at the top down as well.
On the other hand, it is certainly also quite clear that this confidentiality should not be such that it would allow for those who report gang activities to victimize others by making false accusations. It is just too easy to claim anyone is a member of a criminal gang.
I personally feel that protection of witnesses is one of the primary elements in prosecuting criminal gangs. However, I do realize that this is rather difficult to do and must confess that I have no ready solution how to do it without jeopardizing civil rights in general.
The other element in this exercise is the determination of all of us to stamp out this evil. From newspaper reports it does appear that even in Italy, with the notorious Mafia and other gangs, persistent action by brave and honest men and women and also with assistance of informers, the authorities there have at long last managed to crack these gangs which are better organized and more
Page 63 of 201
87
HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL
Page 63 of 201
86
HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL
necessary to obtain legal assistance to advise, and in some cases, to defend our workers. I am not claiming that our men are always guiltless, but I am
claiming that this is a real threat to the efficiency of our G.D. Teams.
10. Recently, after making a statement to the Kwun Tong District Board. which was reported in the press, I found many people approaching
me to say that what I had written was the truth, but that everyone was afraid to say so openly. What I had emphasised was the connection between triads and some police. I can understand that some people are vulnerable and afraid to speak out. But having passed through the trauma of frameup in 1966 for speaking up on corruption, especially in the police, I am prepared to face what comes when I say that I do not consider the police force at present capable of dealing with the triad problem.
11. I should like to make a few observations on the recommendations of this document by the Fight Crime Committee:
(1) The report gives a fair assessment of the triad threat, but completely omits
to mention police involvement.
(2) I would be against putting young convicted offenders under police
supervision as proposed: what they need is rehabilitation.
(3) I would object to prosecuting young persons for being, or claiming to be triad members, unless they had committed some crime: they should be prosecuted only for the crime. Charges of membership are often framed up to get statistics.
(4) I believe that a scheme for renouncing triad membership is necessary, but police should not be involved in this because no one would dare to approach the police for this purpose.
(5) I agree with heavier fines and longer terms of imprisonment for triads
provided that it is for the big fish and not the small fry.
(6) I agree with the idea of a task force and grand jury system, provided they are independent of the police, and that actual prosecution is decided by a body other than the Legal Department.
12. In short, I agree that the triad problem should be tackled relentlessly wherever big fish are involved, but I do not believe that the police should handle the matter. This does not mean total lack of confidence in the police, but it does mean that they have proved in the past their unwillingness to admit to the size of the problem and to deal with it.
13. As triad activities and corruption work hand in hand, I would emphasize that the ICAC or some other body independent of the police and the Legal Department should have this jurisdiction, and that they should train their own
HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL
Page 63 of 201
87
personnel. A safeguard against abuse of power by the ICAC would be provided by the so-called grand jury system.
14. This critical situation requires drastic solutions, but we must ensure that there are checks and balances on abuse of power by any of the bodies
concerned.
With these words, I second the motion.
CHAIRMAN (in English):- The motion has been proposed and seconded and 13 of the Councillors, including myself, have put their names down to speak in the motion.
This motion I consider is most timely as the Urban Council, particularly in its dealings with hawkers, has a day-to-day concern with this matter. The word 'triad', I believe is somewhat outmoded as we are basically dealing with little more than people who are members of criminal gangs. They and their kind certainly are not restricted to Hong Kong but I do not think that the name 'triad' need cloud the issue. We are talking of organized thuggery.
There is little doubt that organized criminal gangs in any city pursue their nefarious activities, knowing well that their victims fear of reprisals from fellow villains if they give evidence leading to their conviction. Even if this threat in many cases is illusory. I am equally sure that many victims and ordinary citizens would be quite happy to tell all they know about gang activities if they could do so with total confidentiality both in and out of court and be sure that they were not identified and thus safe from being victimized.
Whilst the discussion document makes it quite clear that it is very difficult to reach the 'Mr. Big's', the 'Mr. Big's' certainly do not survive without the small fry providing them with their ill-gotten gains. Remove the people at the bottom of the heap and I am sure that the heap will in the long run collapse bringing those at the top down as well.
On the other hand, it is certainly also quite clear that this confidentiality should not be such that it would allow for those who report gang activities to victimize others by making false accusations. It is just too easy to claim anyone is a member of a criminal gang.
I personally feel that protection of witnesses is one of the primary elements in prosecuting criminal gangs. However, I do realize that this is rather difficult to do and must confess that I have no ready solution how to do it without jeopardizing civil rights in general.
The other element in this exercise is the determination of all of us to stamp out this evil. From newspaper reports it does appear that even in Italy, with the notorious Mafia and other gangs, persistent action by brave and honest men and women and also with assistance of informers, the authorities there have at long last managed to crack these gangs which are better organized and more
No comments yet.
Private notes are available after approval.