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that Department has a Council instead of Central Government as its master. I

have been unable to calculate this cost.

Secondly: There is a hidden cost of time and effort by the Urban Services Department itself in having its staff prepare papers for decision by Councillors and to attend meetings. Last financial year, there were a total of 4 474 papers prepared for Councillors to discuss in about 350 meetings ranging from 15 minutes to 3 hours each. All these meetings were attended by government officers of quite senior level, not necessarily confined to U.S.D. Some of them are attended by 5 or more officers drawing salaries at $15,000 per month upwards. Working on broad and very conservative assumptions such as taking 1 officer 5 hours to write a paper, 3 officers 1.5 hours to attend a meeting, equal time to read papers to prepare before a meeting and travelling time etc. I would be surprised if the cost of government officers' executive time was less then $3 million per annum.

Thirdly: we are all used to the concept of opportunity cost in business, and are aware of the advantages of economy of scale. About one quarter of the Urban Council's money is spent on cleaning. One of the practical concerns of not bringing things under one umbrella is the potential loss in economies of scale of having on reserve fleet of refuse vehicles instead of two, when modern refuse trucks cost over half a million dollars each. It is also for debate whether we get a better price by combining the purchasing power for the whole of Hong Kong in buying such expensive equipment.

Another area is in entertainment and culture. The Urban Council will very soon commission its multi million dollar computerized ticketing system which is already under test. When that is done, you can buy tickets for the Hong Kong Coliseum, future Tsim Sha Tsui Cultural Complex, City Hall, Queen Elizabeth Stadium and Space Museum at any outlet where we put a computer terminal. It would not make sense for the New Territories to spend millions doing the same thing, and both come up with a system that can only sell within its jurisdiction. To travel from Tsuen Wan to Central takes as little as 30 minutes, so think of the beauty of a system that allows you to buy a confirmed ticket from City Hall less than an hour before the show at Tsuen Wan Town Hall and vice versa.

The same applies to future computerization of library services which has already been actively pursued for years by the Urban Council.

At the same time, think of the duplication if two councils spent money on inviting overseas orchestras to Hong Kong only to perform in their own region. In addition, there are certain performing companies of the Urban Council such as the Hong Kong Chinese Orchestra, Hong Kong Repertory Theatre, Hong Kong Dance Company and Hong Kong Chorus that are really an asset that should belong to the whole of Hong Kong and not just urban people. The total expenditure by Urban Council at present for performing companies, both local and overseas and the Festival of Asian Arts is close to $30 million.

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Of course, the way to avoid duplication of resources when it comes to territory-wide facilities is to have some format of joint consultation or co- ordination between the two councils, but this is almost like using duplication to avoid duplication, in that the coordinator' would be another Umbrella Council, or a Secretariat, and more civil servants. I put these out to you as

areas to look at in order to identify the cost of a two council system.

But being good business-men, cost is not the only criteria, you must look at the benefits. Looking at it from another angle, the potential $40 million readily identified in items I and 2 and 3 for doubling up 2 councils above only works out at $40 a household, and can only build a few dozen refuse collection points or one market complex. You could also argue that $40 million is more than 10% of the rate income for the whole of the New Territories. Whether this is a large amount or small amount is really a matter of judgement, but I am sure none of you here would like to donate it. To be fair, I would mention the cost of a reconstituted larger territory-wide council would also be more than that $40 million if the number of councillors increased, but it would certainly not double. Maybe the benefit is worth it, but if the cost of duplication is really that small, then why do we need any Regional Councils and Urban Council at all and not go for, say, 5 District Councils covering East New Territories, West New Territories, East Kowloon, West Kowloon and Hong Kong Island?

I think the main thing is to look at costs, look at the benefits, make a decision on whether it is value for money, and then decide what to do. This should also include seeing whether there is any way to achieve the same benefits and objective without incurring the extra costs.

At the same time let's have a look at the functions a council should have whether territory-wide, Regional or District, with a view to eliminating the duplication we already have now especially in the field of Recreation and Culture between the Urban Council and Central Government. We should see whether there are any functions that can be delegated to District Boards, and whether there are any functions that the Central Government can further delegate to the Council.

To decide what is good or bad before even knowing what money we are talking about and hoping to find out later is putting the cart before the horse, and that can't be an intelligent decision. Remember that more than 99.99% of the people are coming up with this public money, only a handful of Councillors are spending it. Let's spend it well.

THE HONOURABLE MARIA W. C. TAM (in English): Mr. Chairman, I shall endeavour to be even shorter than Mr. Howard YOUNG.

The Chief Secretary Sir Philip HADDON-Cave had on the 15 February 1984 put forward the Government's proposals for Further Development of Local Administration and he welcomed public comments on them. Since then, members of this Council, District Board members of various District Boards