1983 — Page 172

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# HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL

pressure for elected-both direct and indirect-representation on the Legislative Council become all the more relevant in the near future if and when the second council comes into being.

plans for the

I therefore look forward to hearing the different views of Councillors on this motion, the outcome of which could have a bearing on development of the whole political structure of Hong Kong, comprising the Legislative and Executive Councils, the regional structure and the district board system.

I so move.

MR. H. M. G. FORSGATE, VICE-CHAIRMAN, URBAN COUNCIL, seconded (in English):—In seconding your motion I think it is important to stress again that the intention of this motion is to give each Councillor an opportunity to express views which might persuade the Government to give more detailed examination to the need for a second council, before reaching a decision. Only the bare bones of this fundamental change in local administration were revealed in the Chief Secretary's statement on 15 February.

The Urban Services Department has a total staff of 26,400. Over 18,000 or some 70% operate in the urban territory assigned to this Council under the Memorandum of Administrative Arrangements. This Council became legally responsible in 1973 for the various activities prescribed in the M.A.A., and everyone seems to agree that we discharge this duty in an effective and responsible manner. It is a well-known fact that the U.C. type facilities in the New Territories have for many years lagged far behind those in the urban areas. But I assert they would have been even further astern, if it were not for the example of dynamic progress in the urban area being experienced at first hand by those U.S.D. officials, who on transfer to the N.T., stimulated progress there and an effort to try and catch up.

Various reasons have been advanced for the formation of an overall regional council composed of interested parties, both elected and appointed from all over the territory. These include economy of scale and efficiency, both of which are difficult to quantify without an in-depth analysis.

As, however, the upper echelon of Government since the Chief Secretary's announcement has shown an unremitting determination to advance the concept of a second council as the only solution, it seems that for political reasons or whatever, we are presented with a fait accompli and not a discussion paper. I may be wrong but that's what it looks like to most people.

In the circumstances, perhaps we should accept the political reality of that scenario, and look for common ground for joint endeavour, in order to ensure maximum utilization of existing and projected venues for cultural, recreational and other facilities. This Council has a vast reservoir of practical experience in the administration of the functions which presumably the second council will be made responsible. It would be a great pity if Government did not devise some means to utilize our talents directly, not filtered through Government servants who, by their varied training, look at problems in a different way to Councillors. 11 years of financial autonomy and direct responsibility has taught us a great deal and I advocate we show willing to share our experience.

I second the motion.

MR. B. A. BERNACCHI (in English): Mr. Chairman, although there is obviously going to be a change, at least in the system of local administration, we have only a comparatively short speech by the Chief Secretary, as still the only official pronouncement to go upon. All other comments, both by the Government servants and public, private bodies and individual persons are, we have been told, entirely unofficial at present. However, we as a Council, have been asked to make observations on the official proposals, as have a comparatively large number of other people.

The first thing that I would like to ask the Chief Secretary, and through him the Government, is, quo vadis (whither are you going)? There is a strong rumour going about, I do not know whether it is officially inspired or just an expression of hope in certain members of the community, that the Government is planning to hold District Board Elections in 1985, those to regional councils (whatever names they are eventually called) in 1986, and elections for the Legislature in 1987. Moreover, the recent expression which I have gained from public speeches of some members of the Executive Council, official and unofficial alike, is that elections to the Legislative Council, urged by the Reform Club I might say, for many years, are now under active consideration. In my view, it would certainly have enabled the Governor in negotiations in Peking as to the future of Hong Kong, if he had the opportunity of saying that the view of the people of Hong Kong through their elected representatives was so and so and so and so.

Now, in my view, without being given the full pattern of the proposed constitutional reform in Hong Kong, I am not in a position to reach any definite conclusion. If there is to be an elected or partly elected legislature, and especially if the opportunity is taking of increasing the number of members on the Legislative Council, then there may make quite a difference to my views as to the proposed local administration. However, one thing is certain, the Government must make up its mind on certain basic issues of policy. For instance, as long as the District Boards are to be kept purely advisory, there are functions beside the local executive body, be it one council or two councils, for the territory of Hong Kong, directing the policies of the Urban Council is satisfactory. Nevertheless, if the District Boards are to be given executive powers, and there is certainly a case for them to be given such powers, limited to items within their district, then the whole framework of the local administration must be established. The relationship between the regional council and the District Boards. Especially if there are not to be ugly disputes and even power...

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# HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL