1983 — Page 162

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community? I am very happy to support Mr. SULKE's motion. I think if we can people can make their livelihood without paying taxes, is it fair to the rest of the have a third party to look at this problem, to propose reasonable solutions, then it would be a great help. Frankly speaking, I have no confidence. I can see markets being built and hawkers although rent stores in the market, they still return to the street to hawk. So I support Mr. SULKE'S motion. Let an

independent third party assist us.

(Mr. Edmund CHOW arrived again at this point-5.27 p.m.)

MR. SULKE (in English):-These points of orders, Mr. Chairman, I cannot see anything in this Standing Order that do not permit me to amend my own

motion.

CHAIRMAN (in English):-Since you have already exercised your right of reply. the ruling is that we vote on the motion. I am sorry. If you have anything wished to be debated on, you can put it up to the S.C.W.C.

MR. YOUNG (in English):—Mr. Chairman, a point of clarification. Since I left the room, can you advise what exactly we are voting on now? Is it as it stands?

CHAIRMAN (in English):----Yes.

The question was put.

The motion was lost with 8 votes for, 15 against and 2 abstentions.

2. MR. SHUM Choi-sang, Chairman of THE MARKETS AND STREET TRADERS Select CommitTEE, moved the following motion:-

"THAT this Council requests the Markets and Street Traders Select Committee to consider setting up a special Working Party to review hawker and related policies together with the department.'

He said (in English): Mr. Chairman, I rise to move the motion standing in my

name:-

'THAT this Council requests the Markets and Street Traders Select Committee to consider setting up a special Working Party to review hawker and related policies together with the department.'

Mr. SULKE raises a number of very valid points which underline the complexity of the so-called hawker problem.

I do not disagree with him that a survey of the kind proposed by him will probably give us some insight as to why some hawkers become hawkers, how

HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL

much money some of them claim to make etc. However, I fear that the proposed

will be unable to shed much light on the question which really concerns the Council, that is, how, when and where to control hawkers.

survey

The so-called hawker 'problem' is a dynamic situation heavily subject to the influence of the social and economic fortunes of the territory. A survey would provide a still-frame record pertaining to a particular point in time, but I doubt if it would be more revealing than the generally held views that hawkers do a very necessary social and economic need; that people become hawkers because they want to be their own boss; that it is easy for them to do so as it involves virtually no skill and limited capital; that hawkers will be with us and can't be made to disappear; that people still like them; and I can go on and on

provide

but I think I have made the point.

And the belief that we could rely on or even needed a generalized survey of this kind would be dangerous in other respects, as it would take the focus from the hawker operating on a particular street in a particular locality to some average typical hawker derived from the survey's conclusions. For if we have learned anything over the tens of years we have been agonizing over hawker policy, it must be that the situations which we are dealing with are essentially local environmental management situations and must be dealt with in practice as far as possible in the interests of the localities affected. And surely, this must give us a strong pointer to the direction we must take. We now have in the District Boards for the first time local representative bodies to whom we can turn for guidance, and although the Council can in no way abdicate its overriding responsibilities for Public Health or even general hawker and market policies, the disposition of hawkers in each district between one street and another must become increasingly a matter for local decision.

I understand that the department is already considering how stronger links with the District Boards could be forged and other important improvements to policy and would welcome participation by Councillors in its working discussion. The motion which I commend to you seeks your agreement that the Markets and Street Traders Select Committee should consider setting up this point working group, which would initially report to it and through it in due course to the Standing Committee.

Sir, I beg to move.

MR. C. K. CHAN (in English):—Mr. Chairman, I have much pleasure to second this motion, and I have only one sentence to say, i.e., I congratulate Mr. SULKE and Mr. PAO Ping-wing for introducing this subject to this Council and we have a very lifely debate. We are moving this motion and seconding it in the spirit that they have proposed and I hope that we all support this motion and if the work is not done well as expected, we can have another debate in 6 months' time. (laughter) Thank you.