1983 — Page 159

Urban Council Proceedings 市政局議事錄 All AI Reviewed

Page 159 of 194

282

HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL

In addition to surveying the problem itself, I believe we must not neglect the other side of the coin, that says we have to deal with the problem, and that of course is firmly in hands of the Markets and Street Traders Select Committee. Do we need hawkers in Hong Kong? What would we do without them? This, at the moment, is a hypothetical question. I believe if you look at other advanced cities and countries in the world, although they also have members of the population whose abdomen is likely to expand, like Mr. CHAN's, they probably do not have to go to Temple Street to find a belt. Therefore, I think we should not tie the hands of the Markets and Street Traders Select Committee at this stage by saying that we must do this survey before they have a look at the problems themselves. Under these circumstances, Mr. Chairman, whilst I fully agree with the spirit of Mr. SULKE's motion and in particular to what Mr. PAO said that we ought to look at the hawker problem not from a total emotional point of view, I would rather support the second motion on the agenda. Although we have not started debating the second motion, I would not speak further on that one, and vote for the second motion when it comes to vote.

MR. KWAN (in Cantonese): Mr. Chairman, I support Mr. SULKE's motion in spirit. In his speech, there are several points I would like to reiterate. One of these relates to a motion to conduct a systematic enquiry and the second part is on the economic and social factors behind hawkers and another part has attracted a great amount of Members' attention, i.e. every year, we spend over $70 million on hawker related activities especially on illegal hawkers. In Mr. SULKE's motion, there are several items. In paragraph 3, he stated a number of problems and one of these is that the Urban Council does not know the number of hawkers and we do not know why hawkers become hawkers. Under what framework do they operate? I think before he wrote the motion, Mr. SULKE should look clearly at the number of hawkers as stated in page 7 of this monthly publication. Mr. Chairman, perhaps you will allow me to turn to page 7. Sorry it should be page 11, sorry, page 17 on the statistics, it is clearly stated that the number of hawkers in Hong Kong and Kowloon is 27,646, and in the same information pamphlet, it clearly stated the number of hawkers prosecuted and how many people gave up their licences. In paragraph 3, Mr. SULKE said that the Urban Council has no idea as to the number of hawkers and at the end of paragraph 4, he said that we do not know all the facts. I think Mr. SULKE may not have disclosed all information to Members. Let me quote another example, because hawkers are not such a serious problem when compared to crime, of course, we want to know where hawkers hawk, where they place their paraphernalia and how much money they make, but if we are to conduct a survey on the number of burglars or thieves in Hong Kong, even a most systematic survey will not give you accurate result. Let me give you another example. How many people in Hong Kong are litterbugs? How many people dump refuse legally and illegally? We could only infer from the monthly statistics as to the actual number. I think these problems cannot be dealt with

HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL

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283

by a systematic survey to get all the answers especially when they relate to economic and social situations, and as to whether we should support the motion to study hawkers, I think in the Urban Council, we have the Markets and Street Traders Select Committee which should be able to look into this problem and the Committee annually studies its policy. Therefore, I think that our Markets and Street Traders Select Committee should look into this further because the hawker problem is changing all the time. Just as our society is changing all the time. We can see that there are lots of hawkers during Chinese New Year on busy streets. But today when the Chinese New Year is over, we see that the number of hawkers drops very drastically. So should we spend so much money to invite some outside organization to study the hawker problem? I think we should not do it. And I would suggest that Members should support the next motion, that is that our Markets and Street Traders Select Committee should further study this problem. Thank you.

MRS. CHOW (in English): Mr. Chairman, may I have your clarification as to whether it would be in order for us to speak on the second motion before it's actually moved. If so, then I would like to say something. But if not, I would wait after the motion has moved.

CHAIRMAN (in English): I think you can speak on this motion.

MRS. CHOW (in English): I'd like to speak on both.

CHAIRMAN (in English): You can speak twice, but on two separate motions.

MRS. CHOW (in English): Basically, I don't know why we are being asked to choose one of the two because the way I look at it, I don't really think that they are mutually exclusive. The first one is that we agree with Mr. SULKE's suggestion that the Council takes a scientific look at the very important problem that we have to deal with. The second one relates to the work of the Markets and Street Traders Select Committee and suggestions are made to set up a special working party. I feel that both are needed if we, as the Council, are to award the priority that we should give to this very important problem.

MR. LAU (in Cantonese): Mr. Chairman, I fully support the motion raised by Mr. SULKE. In other words, Urban Councillors should know more about hawker problems. Because of the financial restraint we are now facing, I think it is not worthwhile spending that much money in getting an outsider to do the survey. I think perhaps the only way to know more about hawkers is to take part in more meetings, to have more meetings and to join in the work of the Markets and Street Traders Select Committee. So, on these grounds, I would like to propose that the motion raised by Mr. SULKE be handled for consideration by the Markets and Street Traders Select Committee and even in future, if we are going to get outsider to do the job, perhaps money would be

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Page 159 of 194 282 HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL In addition to surveying the problem itself, I believe we must not neglect the other side of the coin, that says we have to deal with the problem, and that of course is firmly in hands of the Markets and Street Traders Select Committee. Do we need hawkers in Hong Kong? What would we do without them? This, at the moment, is a hypothetical question. I believe if you look at other advanced cities and countries in the world, although they also have members of the population whose abdomen is likely to expand, like Mr. CHAN's, they probably do not have to go to Temple Street to find a belt. Therefore, I think we should not tie the hands of the Markets and Street Traders Select Committee at this stage by saying that we must do this survey before they have a look at the problems themselves. Under these circumstances, Mr. Chairman, whilst I fully agree with the spirit of Mr. SULKE's motion and in particular to what Mr. PAO said that we ought to look at the hawker problem not from a total emotional point of view, I would rather support the second motion on the agenda. Although we have not started debating the second motion, I would not speak further on that one, and vote for the second motion when it comes to vote. MR. KWAN (in Cantonese): Mr. Chairman, I support Mr. SULKE's motion in spirit. In his speech, there are several points I would like to reiterate. One of these relates to a motion to conduct a systematic enquiry and the second part is on the economic and social factors behind hawkers and another part has attracted a great amount of Members' attention, i.e. every year, we spend over $70 million on hawker related activities especially on illegal hawkers. In Mr. SULKE's motion, there are several items. In paragraph 3, he stated a number of problems and one of these is that the Urban Council does not know the number of hawkers and we do not know why hawkers become hawkers. Under what framework do they operate? I think before he wrote the motion, Mr. SULKE should look clearly at the number of hawkers as stated in page 7 of this monthly publication. Mr. Chairman, perhaps you will allow me to turn to page 7. Sorry it should be page 11, sorry, page 17 on the statistics, it is clearly stated that the number of hawkers in Hong Kong and Kowloon is 27,646, and in the same information pamphlet, it clearly stated the number of hawkers prosecuted and how many people gave up their licences. In paragraph 3, Mr. SULKE said that the Urban Council has no idea as to the number of hawkers and at the end of paragraph 4, he said that we do not know all the facts. I think Mr. SULKE may not have disclosed all information to Members. Let me quote another example, because hawkers are not such a serious problem when compared to crime, of course, we want to know where hawkers hawk, where they place their paraphernalia and how much money they make, but if we are to conduct a survey on the number of burglars or thieves in Hong Kong, even a most systematic survey will not give you accurate result. Let me give you another example. How many people in Hong Kong are litterbugs? How many people dump refuse legally and illegally? We could only infer from the monthly statistics as to the actual number. I think these problems cannot be dealt with HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL Page 159 of 194 283 by a systematic survey to get all the answers especially when they relate to economic and social situations, and as to whether we should support the motion to study hawkers, I think in the Urban Council, we have the Markets and Street Traders Select Committee which should be able to look into this problem and the Committee annually studies its policy. Therefore, I think that our Markets and Street Traders Select Committee should look into this further because the hawker problem is changing all the time. Just as our society is changing all the time. We can see that there are lots of hawkers during Chinese New Year on busy streets. But today when the Chinese New Year is over, we see that the number of hawkers drops very drastically. So should we spend so much money to invite some outside organization to study the hawker problem? I think we should not do it. And I would suggest that Members should support the next motion, that is that our Markets and Street Traders Select Committee should further study this problem. Thank you. MRS. CHOW (in English): Mr. Chairman, may I have your clarification as to whether it would be in order for us to speak on the second motion before it's actually moved. If so, then I would like to say something. But if not, I would wait after the motion has moved. CHAIRMAN (in English): I think you can speak on this motion. MRS. CHOW (in English): I'd like to speak on both. CHAIRMAN (in English): You can speak twice, but on two separate motions. MRS. CHOW (in English): Basically, I don't know why we are being asked to choose one of the two because the way I look at it, I don't really think that they are mutually exclusive. The first one is that we agree with Mr. SULKE's suggestion that the Council takes a scientific look at the very important problem that we have to deal with. The second one relates to the work of the Markets and Street Traders Select Committee and suggestions are made to set up a special working party. I feel that both are needed if we, as the Council, are to award the priority that we should give to this very important problem. MR. LAU (in Cantonese): Mr. Chairman, I fully support the motion raised by Mr. SULKE. In other words, Urban Councillors should know more about hawker problems. Because of the financial restraint we are now facing, I think it is not worthwhile spending that much money in getting an outsider to do the survey. I think perhaps the only way to know more about hawkers is to take part in more meetings, to have more meetings and to join in the work of the Markets and Street Traders Select Committee. So, on these grounds, I would like to propose that the motion raised by Mr. SULKE be handled for consideration by the Markets and Street Traders Select Committee and even in future, if we are going to get outsider to do the job, perhaps money would be Page 159 of 194

Baseline (Original)

Page 159 of 194 282 HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL In addition to surveying the problem itself, I believe we must not neglect the other side of the coin, that says we have to deal with the problem, and that of course is firmly in hands of the Markets and Street Traders Select Committee, Do we need hawkers in Hong Kong? What would we do without them? This, at the moment, is a hypothetical question. I believe if you look at other advanced cities and countries in the world, although they also have members of the population whose abdomen is likely to expand, like Mr. CHAN'S, they probably do not have to go to Temple Street to find a belt. Therefore, I think we should not tie the hands of the Markets and Street Traders Select Committee at this stage by saying that we must do this survey before they have a look at the problems themselves. Under these circumstances, Mr. Chairman, whilst I fully agree with the spirit of Mr. SULKE's motion and in particular to what Mr. PAO said that we ought to look at the hawker problem not from a total emotional point of view, I would rather support the second motion on the agenda. Although we have not started debating the second motion; I would not speak further on that one, and vote for the second motion when it comes to vote. MR. KWAN (in Cantonese):-Mr. Chairman, I support Mr. SULKE'S motion in spirit. In his speech, there are several points I would like to reiterate. One of these relates to a motion to conduct a systematic enquiry and the second part is on the economic and social factors behind hawkers and another part has attracted a great amount of Members' attention, i.e. every year, we spend over $70 million on hawker related activities especially on illegal hawkers. In Mr. SULKE'S motion, there are several items. In paragraph 3, he stated a number of problems and one of these is that the Urban Council does not know the number of hawkers and we do not know why hawkers become hawkers. Under what framework do they operate? I think before he wrote the motion, Mr. SULKE should look clearly at the number of hawkers as stated in page 7 of this monthly publication. Mr. Chairman, perhaps you will allow me to turn to page 7. Sorry it should be page 11, sorry, page 17 on the statistics, it is clearly stated that the number of hawkers in Hong Kong and Kowloon is 27 646, and in the same information pamphlet, it clearly stated the number of hawkers prosecuted and how many people gave up their licences. In paragraph 3, Mr. SULKE said that the Urban Council has no idea as to the number of hawkers and at the end of paragraph 4, he said that we do not know all the facts. I think Mr. SULKE may not have disclosed all information to Members. Let me quote another example, because hawkers are not such a serious problem when compared to crime, of course, we want to know where hawkers hawk, where they place their paraphenalia and how much money they make, but if we are to conduct a survey on the number of burglars or thieves in Hong Kong, even a most systematic survey will not give you accurate result. Let me give you another example. How many people in Hong Kong are litterbugs? How many people dump refuse legally and illegally? We could only infer from the monthly statistics as to the actual number. I think these problems cannot be dealt with HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL Page 159 of 194 283 by a systematic survey to get all the answers especially when they relate to economic and social situations, and as to whether we should support the motion to study hawkers, I think in the Urban Council, we have the Markets and Street Traders Select Committee which should be able to look into this problem and the Committee annually studies its policy. Therefore, I think that our Markets and Street Traders Select Committee should look into this further because the hawker problem is changing all the time. Just as our society is changing all the time. We can see that there are lots of hawkers during Chinese New Year on busy streets. But today when the Chinese New Year is over, we see that the number of hawkers drops very drastically. So should we spend so much money to invite some outside organization to study the hawker problem? I think we should not do it. And I would suggest that Members should support the next motion, that is that our Markets and Street Traders Select Committee should further study this problem. Thank you. MRS. CHOW (in English):---Mr. Chairman, may I have your clarification as to whether it would be in order for us to speak on the second motion before it's actually moved. If so, then I would like to say something. But if not, I would wait after the motion has moved. CHAIRMAN (in English): I think you can speak on this motion. MRS. CHOW (in English):-I'd like to speak on both. CHAIRMAN (in English):-You can speak twice, but on two separate motions. MRS. CHOW (in English):—Basically, I don't know why we are being asked to choose one of the two because the way I look at it, I don't really think that they are mutually exclusive. The first one is that we agree with Mr. SULKE'S suggestion that the Council takes a scientific look at the very important problem that we have to deal with. The second one relates to the work of the Markets and Street Traders Select Committee and suggestions are made to set up a special working party. I feel that both are needed if we, as the Council, are to award the priority that we should give to this very important problem. MR. LAU (in Cantonese): Mr. Chairman, I fully support the motion raised by Mr. SULKE. In other words, Urban Councillors should know more about hawker problems. Because of the financial restraint we are now facing, I think it is not worthwhile spending that much money in getting an outsider to do the survey. I think perhaps the only way to know more about hawkers is to take part in more meetings, to have more meetings and to join in the work of the Markets and Street Traders Select Committee. So, on these grounds, I would like to propose that the motion raised by Mr. SULKE be handled for consideration by the Markets and Street Traders Select Committee and even in future, if we are going to get outsider to do the job, perhaps money would be

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Page 159 of 194

282

HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL

In addition to surveying the problem itself, I believe we must not neglect the other side of the coin, that says we have to deal with the problem, and that of course is firmly in hands of the Markets and Street Traders Select Committee, Do we need hawkers in Hong Kong? What would we do without them? This, at the moment, is a hypothetical question. I believe if you look at other advanced cities and countries in the world, although they also have members of the population whose abdomen is likely to expand, like Mr. CHAN'S, they probably do not have to go to Temple Street to find a belt. Therefore, I think we should not tie the hands of the Markets and Street Traders Select Committee at this stage by saying that we must do this survey before they have a look at the problems themselves. Under these circumstances, Mr. Chairman, whilst I fully agree with the spirit of Mr. SULKE's motion and in particular to what Mr. PAO said that we ought to look at the hawker problem not from a total emotional point of view, I would rather support the second motion on the agenda. Although we have not started debating the second motion; I would not speak further on that one, and vote for the second motion when it comes to vote.

MR. KWAN (in Cantonese):-Mr. Chairman, I support Mr. SULKE'S motion in spirit. In his speech, there are several points I would like to reiterate. One of these relates to a motion to conduct a systematic enquiry and the second part is on the economic and social factors behind hawkers and another part has attracted a great amount of Members' attention, i.e. every year, we spend over $70 million on hawker related activities especially on illegal hawkers. In Mr. SULKE'S motion, there are several items. In paragraph 3, he stated a number of problems and one of these is that the Urban Council does not know the number of hawkers and we do not know why hawkers become hawkers. Under what framework do they operate? I think before he wrote the motion, Mr. SULKE should look clearly at the number of hawkers as stated in page 7 of this monthly publication. Mr. Chairman, perhaps you will allow me to turn to page 7. Sorry it should be page 11, sorry, page 17 on the statistics, it is clearly stated that the number of hawkers in Hong Kong and Kowloon is 27 646, and in the same information pamphlet, it clearly stated the number of hawkers prosecuted and how many people gave up their licences. In paragraph 3, Mr. SULKE said that the Urban Council has no idea as to the number of hawkers and at the end of paragraph 4, he said that we do not know all the facts. I think Mr. SULKE may not have disclosed all information to Members. Let me quote another example, because hawkers are not such a serious problem when compared to crime, of course, we want to know where hawkers hawk, where they place their paraphenalia and how much money they make, but if we are to conduct a survey on the number of burglars or thieves in Hong Kong, even a most systematic survey will not give you accurate result. Let me give you another example. How many people in Hong Kong are litterbugs? How many people dump refuse legally and illegally? We could only infer from the monthly statistics as to the actual number. I think these problems cannot be dealt with

HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL

Page 159 of 194

283

MRS. CHOW (in English):---Mr. Chairman, may I have your clarification as to whether it would be in order for us to speak on the second motion before it's actually moved. If so, then I would like to say something. But if not, I would wait after the motion has moved.

CHAIRMAN (in English): I think you can speak on this motion.

MRS. CHOW (in English):-I'd like to speak on both.

CHAIRMAN (in English):-You can speak twice, but on two separate motions.

MRS. CHOW (in English):—Basically, I don't know why we are being asked to choose one of the two because the way I look at it, I don't really think that they are mutually exclusive. The first one is that we agree with Mr. SULKE'S suggestion that the Council takes a scientific look at the very important problem that we have to deal with. The second one relates to the work of the Markets and Street Traders Select Committee and suggestions are made to set up a special working party. I feel that both are needed if we, as the Council, are to award the priority that we should give to this very important problem.

1983 — Page 159

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