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HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL

Consequently, it is virtually impossible to find unoccupied space to build proper refuse collection points and, more important, to provide flush toilets.

In these circumstances, it is possible only to scratch the surface of the problem, doing as much as possible within these constraints. To this end, an additional 128 cleansing staff are being provided which will cost the Urban Council about $3 million for a full year. In the main, they will provide additional beat sweeping and other cleansing services in areas which are currently under-manned and also new services where none exist at present.

The Council has already approved supplementary provision of $580,000 to meet the cost of providing toilet facilities and refuse bins in squatter areas this year. It is expected that a further $616,000 will be required for this purpose next year.

(Mr. Augustine S. K. CHUNG arrived during Dr. Denny HUANG's address. }

MR. FUNG (in English):--Mr. Chairman, may I ask whether the squatter huts are charged rates?

DR. HUANG (in Cantonese):-As far as I know not at present, because it seems that we have discussed whether we should suggest to the Government whether we should charge rates in squatter areas. But they think there could be difficulties in practice because the turnover of the squatter area house-holders is very great and I doubt whether we can charge rates.

MR. FUNG (in English):—Mr. Chairman, may I further ask to the effect that just for improving the cleansing service for the squatter area in the urban area alone, is it costing the Council $3,580,000 for this current financial year? Can the Chairman of the Environmental Hygiene Select Committee or Chairman of the Finance Select Committee confirm that?

MR. FORSGATE (in English):-Those are the figures that have been quoted by the Urban Services Department to us and the answer to your question is that it is not quite clear whether that whole amount would be required for this year. 1 think, Mr. Chairman, by your permission I might add something to the question about the rates, as we of course obtain the majority of our revenue from rates. This question was raised by Dr. HUANG at the Standing Committee on 21 April, and we made a plea to the Administration about it and if time permits, you might like to read the reply which we have, Mr. Chairman. The reply from the Administration, and we quote a part of a speech made in the Leg. Co. when the question of whether squatters should pay rates was raised. During discussion it transpired that squatters are not charged rates because there are doubts whether they are the legal tenants of building on crown land or tenements as defined in the Rating Ordinance, for it could be argued that they have not held or occupied distinct or separate tenancies, or holdings, or under licence; secondly that you know there will be a number of difficulties in trying to

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assess squatters such as: identifying each separate holding, identifying the ratepayers, keeping track of changes in the names of ratepayers because such flimsy structures can be erected and altered over a few days, so the assessments will require constant monitoring. Rates payable for many small squatter structures might be such as to make collection uneconomic, and there are more remunerative tasks to which scarce staff resources and the Rating and Valuation Department can be put. It has also been suggested, Mr. Chairman, that we might consider trying to collect a small fee from individual squatter huts, which the Administration's advisers think might be uncollectible, if that is the correct expression. But we of course, are very concerned with the open- ended commitment to the Council because this is just the thin end of the wedge, but as a proportion of our total annual cost of nearly $250,000,000 for cleansing at the moment, it is a relatively small proportion.

DR. CHAM (in English):-Mr. Chairman, can I ask another financial question. Because it was mentioned in the statement that we are only scratching the surface of the problem, would the Council be prepared to spend more financially, if we were to solve further the problem.

MR. FORSGATE (in English):-Mr. Chairman, this is a question of standards and up to now the squatter areas have not been dealt with very fully by the Urban Services Department. I think it is really a question for the Environmental Hygiene Select Committee to find out the results of the present effort to improve the standards to see whether we can increase them.

DR. HUANG (in Cantonese):-Mr. Chairman, I would like to add that environ- mental cleansing is one of our duties. Although they are not paying rates but they are living in the urban area, and we have the duty to improve the environment there as well. Furthermore, we cannot forget that if we do not improve the situation there, and should anything happen, they could affect some other better living areas. So, I think as a precaution, we have to spend that amount of money. I would like to thank Mr. FUNG for his concern on the spending of public funds but I think this is within our terms of reference so we have no alternative but to spend it.

MOTION

1. THE HONOURABLE. F. K. HU, VICE-CHAIRMAN of the RecrEATION SELECT COMMITTEE, moved the following motion:—

'RESOLVED that the Pleasure Grounds (Amendment) (No. 2) By-laws 1981 be made under section 109 of the Public Health and Urban Services Ordinance, Cap. 132.'

He said (in English):-Mr. Chairman, as Vice-Chairman of the Recreation Select Committee, I rise on the motion standing in my name:

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