1977 — Page 58

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architects generally speaking, have decided and no matter what other architects say, only our plan can be accepted and since we have decided, there is no use anybody speaking up? Is that what he means?

MR. FORSGATE (in English):-In the context of the design of the Cultural Complex at this stage in time the design has been worked by the Government Architectural Office, not by enthusiastic amateurs around this hall. They have frozen the design with our approval, so that work can start so there will be no untoward delay. The answer, in short, is yes.

MRS. ELLIOTT (in English):-Mr. Chairman, I studied all the minutes over the weekend right from the beginning. I found that far from the Principal Government Architect encouraging the demolition, he was told to make the plans, of course, but does Mr. FORSGATE know that Mr. C. BRAMWELL, right from the beginning spoke against the demolition? He repeatedly spoke in favour of retaining the building and said, I quote his words "It was a historical feature symbolizing Hong Kong" and that his plans were made on the instruction of the Urban Council but were not his own personal opinion about this build- ing.

MR. FORSGATE (in English):-Mr. BRAMWELL is now safely in Saudi Arabia and is not in a position to confirm or deny what Mrs. ELLIOTT has said, but I cannot recollect what Mr. BRAMWELL said or did not say.

So far as I know, the only thing that the Government Architect in-charge of the job at the moment is in favour of is consider- ing retention of the clocktower. The rest of the facade I wouldn't have thought had any particular merit whatsoever.

MRS. ELLIOTT (in English):--Mr. Chairman, if Mr. FORSGATE is not quite sure of what happened I have the minutes of the meetings here, and he may refresh his memory afterwards if he wishes.

CHAIRMAN (in English):-But that is a non-sequitur because Mr. FORSGATE was a member of that sub-committee all along.

MRS. ELLIOTT (in English):-Yes, but the minutes are here because he cannot remember. But Mr. Chairman, I have another question, and that is the decision of the Governor is mentioned in paragraph 3 and the conclusion is that to retain the facade would interfere in the construction of the Cultural Complex, but was this advice not given to the Governor by the Urban Council?

MR. FORSGATE (in English):-No, the advice to the Governor was given by the Director of Public Works.

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MRS. ELLIOTT (in English):-Alright. Well, Mr. Chairman, are you and Mr. FORSGATE aware that some advocated that the whole build- ing could be incorporated into the plan for the Cultural Complex and therefore the question of interfering with the Cultural Complex as mentioned in the report, does not arise. The Cultural Complex can go ahead and the railway station building can be incorporated in the plan. There is no such suggestion that we are going to destroy the Cultural Complex plan, but just make another plan which will include the building.

MR. FORSGATE (in English):-I find it hard to believe that Mrs. ELLIOTT has been at every Cultural Complex Sub-Committee meeting and not realized what the intention of the schedule of accommodation is, when realized in term of architectural drawings. There is just no way in which the railway station could be retained and provide what the Urban Council has requested be provided in that area. It is a job for architectural design. The Government Architects, whatever other experts on the side-lines may say to the contrary, have advised us that this is the way to do it, and we accept their advice because in the final analysis they are paying for the job. Who pays the piper calls the tune.

MRS. ELLIOTT (in English):-Mr. Chairman, it is quite true that I was at those meetings, and I did speak up from time to time, but the point is I am informed by other architects, and well-known architects, including Government architects, that the Cultural Complex can include the railway station and therefore as a layman, I am not prepared to say that the architects are wrong. Does Mr. FORSGATE believe that the architects are wrong?

CHAIRMAN (in English):-Mrs. ELLIOTT, you are asking Mr. FORSGATE for an expression of opinion which is not allowed by Standing Orders, please.

MRS. ELLIOTT (in English):-I am sorry. Is it correct that the architects are wrong?

CHAIRMAN (in English):-That again is asking Mr. FORSGATE for an expression of opinion which is directly contrary to Standing Order 12, section 13. Please try again.

MRS. ELLIOTT (in English):-Alright, Mr. Chairman, is Mr. FORSGATE Willing and are you and the Council willing to hear what the architects have to say to see whether this can be done, to include the railway station in the whole outlay of the Cultural Complex?