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confiscation for too long a time, in order to solve the hawker problem in the urban areas.
We should rely more on a strengthening of our own hawker services staff and a carefully controlled relaxing of our hawker licensing policy in specific areas.
With these reservations, I support the motion, and also urge that the policy of mandatory confiscation be reviewed one year from now.
MISS CECILIA L. Y. YEUNG (in Cantonese): ---Mr. Chairman, I feel it very difficult to support the motion because I think that we cannot solve the problem by confiscation. I have also said that during economic depression we should allow hawkers to make a living and if some hawkers have their goods confiscated they will have debts and they have to rely on public assistance for subsistence. This would not help the work of the USD nor that of the Police, because in arresting hawkers, they will have to take away their goods as well and sometimes they can only catch 3 or 4 unfortunate hawkers who cannot get away but they cannot arrest the others because they are short of both vehicles and staff. So I think that we might as well fine them heavier instead of confiscating their goods and they can take the fines as part of their overheads, I would like to stress that the Urban Council should re-consider issuing licences to hawkers and I object to the motion.
MR. EDMUND W. H. CHOW (in Cantonese):—I am supporting the opposition, Mr. Chairman, because it is my personal view that this is against the principle of justice and it deprives the magistrates from exercising their discretion in certain special cases which warrant special consideration. I therefore support the opposition, Mr. Chairman.
MR. TSIN SAI-NIN (in Cantonese): -Mr. Chairman, I support Mrs. ELLIOTT's point. Firstly, I do not think confiscation is a way to solve the hawker problem and secondly I think the Hawkers Select Committee should find a more positive way to solve the problem and not to resort to law or by confiscation, I also think that unjust matters cannot be solved by law so I support the opposition.
MR. PETER C. K. CHAN (in Cantonese):-Mr. Chairman, I have not prepared anything to say this afternoon as the motion only tries to balance something which is unbalanced. If a hawker is unlicensed, the authority according to Section 5.1 prosecutes him and confiscates goods but according to Section 13(b) the goods may not have to be confiscated, so the prosecutor has the right to resort to section 5.1 for confiscation or to section 13(b) for non confiscation. In other words, the Council may have one policy but it is up to the prosecutor to decide which way he chooses. I fully sympathise with unlicensed hawkers.
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In the last meeting when we discussed whether goods should be confiscated I did not cast any vote, but since the majority agrees to the motion so it remains the policy of the Urban Council. We do not think that the prosecutor should have 2 choices; we should have a co-ordinated policy. So technically speaking, as the Chairman of the Select Committee pointed out, we have to do it, so I support the policy. I support the motion in other words.
CHAIRMAN (in English):-I will ask those Members who have not spoken as yet but who may wish to do so, to speak now, before I ask Mr. F. K. Hu to speak as the seconder. He has reserved his speech, so after Mr. Hu speaks only the proposer has the right of reply and nobody else will be eligible to take the floor, so please exercise your right to speak now. Does anybody wish to speak? Mr. MACKENZIE, please.
MR. JOHN MACKENZIE (in English):-Mr. Chairman, I do not think any Member of the Council regards mandatory confiscation as a continuing or final solution to the hawker problem. All of us, who support this motion do so, like Mr. CHEONG-LEEN, with many reservations but the department has made it very clear that the non implementation of this by-law will result in a chaotic situation prevailing throughout Hong Kong, a situation where the lack of Council control is already evident. I find myself somewhat bemused by this constant reference to lack of hawker policy. I think Mr. Hu referred to it in our last meeting. Mrs. ELLIOTT has specifically underlined it to-day, and Mr. BERNACCHI has implied that this lack of policy in control exists. In my first meeting in this Council in 1971 Dr. Hu, Mr. BERNACCHI and Mrs. ELLIOTT were talking about exactly the same problem. Sir, Dr. Hu was complaining about the lack of control of hawkers in resettlement estates. Mr. BERNACCHI was talking about the need for controls. Mrs. ELLIOTT was concerned that the tidiness teams which, had been introduced should not use their pickaxes to attack hawkers. Where in fact is the responsibility for this lack of management control? Mr. BERNACCHI at that time was Chairman of the Hawker Management Committee. Mrs. ELLIOTT and Mr. BERNACCHI were the backbone of the Hawker Policy Select Committee. These are the Committees in fact which have been formulating and postulating policies over these years. If we compare the lack of progress in this area with the progress which the Council has made in every other area of its responsibility, the cultural explosion which has resulted since it gained autonomy, the advances in recreation and sports and other amenities, the vast clean-up through its environmental hygiene activities, I think that those Members are quite right when they say that we have not
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confiscation for too long a time, in order to solve the hawker problem in the urban areas.
We should rely more on a strengthening of our own hawker services staff and a carefully controlled relaxing of our hawker licensing policy in specific areas.
With these reservations, I support the motion, and also urge that the policy of mandatory confiscation be reviewed one year from now.
MISS CECILIA L. Y. YEUNG (in Cantonese): ---Mr. Chairman, I feel it very difficult to support the motion because I think that we cannot solve the problem by confiscation. I have also said that during economic depression we should allow hawkers to make a living and if some hawkers have their goods confiscated they will have debts and they have to rely on public assistance for subsistence. This would not help the work of the USD nor that of the Police, because in arresting hawkers, they will have to take away their goods as well and sometimes they can only catch 3 or 4 unfortunate hawkers who cannot get away but they cannot arrest the others because they are short of both vehicles and staff. So I think that we might as well fine them heavier instead of confiscating their goods and they can take the fines as part of their overheads, I would like to stress that the Urban Council should re-consider issuing licences to hawkers and I object to the motion.
MR. EDMUND W. H. CHOW (in Cantonese):—I am supporting the opposition, Mr. Chairman, because it is my personal view that this is against the principle of justice and it deprives the magistrates from exercising their discretion in certain special cases which warrant special consideration. I therefore support the opposition, Mr. Chairman.
MR. TSIN SAI-NIN (in Cantonese): -Mr. Chairman, I support Mrs. ELLIOTT's point. Firstly, I do not think confiscation is a way to solve the hawker problem and secondly I think the Hawkers Select Com- mittee should find a more positive way to solve the problem and not to resort to law or by confiscation, I also think that unjust matters cannot be solved by law so I support the opposition.
MR. PETER C. K. CHAN (in Cantonese):-Mr. Chairman, I have not prepared anything to say this afternoon as the motion only tries to balance something which is unbalanced. If a hawker is unlicensed, the authority according to Section 5.1 prosecutes him and confiscates goods but according to Section 13(b) the goods may not have to be con- fiscated, so the prosecutor has the right to resort to section 5.1 for confiscation or to section 13(b) for non confiscation. In other words, the Council may have one policy but it is up to the prosecutor to decide which way he chooses. I fully sympathise with unlicensed hawkers.
HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL
163
In the last meeting when we discussed whether goods should be con- fiscated I did not cast any vote, but since the majority agrees to the motion so it remains the policy of the Urban Council. We do not think that the prosecutor should have 2 choices; we should have a co-ordinated policy. So technically speaking, as the Chairman of the Select Committee pointed out, we have to do it, so I support the policy. I support the motion in other words.
CHAIRMAN (in English):-I will ask those Members who have not spoken as yet but who may wish to do so, to speak now, before I ask Mr. F. K. Hu to speak as the seconder. He has reserved his speech, so after Mr. Hu speaks only the proposer has the right of reply and nobody else will be eligible to take the floor, so please exercise your right to speak now. Does anybody wish to speak? Mr. MACKENZIE, please.
MR. JOHN MACKENZIE (in English):-Mr. Chairman, I do not think any Member of the Council regards mandatory confiscation as a continuing or final solution to the hawker problem. All of us, who support this motion do so, like Mr. CHEONG-LEEN, with many reserva- tions but the department has made it very clear that the non imple- mentation of this by-law will result in a chaotic situation prevailing throughout Hong Kong, a situation where the lack of Council control is already evident. I find myself somewhat bemused by this constant reference to lack of hawker policy. I think Mr. Hu referred to it in our last meeting. Mrs. ELLIOTT has specifically underlined it to-day, and Mr. BERNACCHI has implied that this lack of policy in control exists. In my first meeting in this Council in 1971 Dr. Hu, Mr. BERNACCHI and Mrs. ELLIOTT were talking about exactly the same problem. Sir, Dr. Hu was complaining about the lack of control of hawkers in resettlement estates. Mr. BERNACCHI was talking about the need for controls. Mrs. ELLIOTT was concerned that the tidiness teams which, had been introduced should not use their pickaxes to attack hawkers. Where in fact is the responsibility for this lack of management control? Mr. BERNACCHI at that time was Chairman of the Hawker Management Committee. Mrs. ELLIOTT and Mr. BERNACCHI were the backbone of the Hawker Policy Select Committee. These are the Committees in fact which have been formulating and postulating policies over these years. If we compare the lack of progress in this area with the progress which the Council has made in every other area of its respon- sibility, the cultural explosion which has resulted since it gained autonomy, the advances in recreation and sports and other amenities, the vast clean-up through its environmental hygiene activities, I think that those Members are quite right when they say that we have not
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