1976 — Page 62

Urban Council Proceedings 市政局議事錄 All AI Reviewed

Page 62 of 135

HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL

If the five G.D. teams are recruited to full establishment, the additional cost per annum would be $457,511.

MR. MACKENZIE (in English):-Mr. Chairman, I am concerned about the very substantial and rapid escalation of costs in this particular area. If the establishment of Hawker Control Force and General Duties Teams are filled in the next year, there will be, I understand, from this reply, an expenditure of some $30 million, but can the Hawkers Select Committee Chairman advise whether, in fact, this will represent an ultimate establishment necessary for this particular job of administration in control of hawkers, or is there likely to be further substantial increases in the establishment of these Forces?

DR. HU (in English):-For the moment, I should think $23 million is a reasonable estimate. There will be no immediate increase of expenses.

MR. MACKENZIE (in English):-Mr. Chairman, may I ask that before the Hawkers Select Committee enters into a firm commitment in relation to establishment and recruitment in Hawker Control Force and General Duties Teams, that this question of costing receive consideration of the Council?

DR. HU (in English):-Of course. It is the concern for everybody, and it is also my concern. But in order to control hawkers, to a reasonable level, this is a necessary expense. In return, we will receive about $10 million revenue from hawker licence fees, and licence fees will be increased in future.

MR. MACKENZIE (in English):-Mr. Chairman, with due respect to my distinguished colleague, may I say that necessary expenses must relate to policies and that the policy of the Hawker Control Force is a matter for consideration in terms of number and cost.

DR. HU (in English):-The policy is, for the moment, that we will increase 70 members of Hawker Control Forces next year and we will see whether the Hawker Control Force should have the full strength of 473 men. We have only 218 men, so what we spend for the GDT can be offset by this reduction of Hawker Control Force, there is no additional expense for the moment.

MR. FORSGATE (in English):-Mr. Chairman, from what I heard Dr. Hu say in his reply we would appear to be subsidizing hawkers to the sum of $16 million this year and probably even greater next year. I would like the Hawkers Select Committee to bear that in mind when considering hawker licence fees in future.

HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL

DR. HU (in English):-I just want to correct my colleague. It is not $16 million. The difference is about $11 million for this year. We certainly will bear that point in mind.

MR. B. A. BERNACCHI (in English):-Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask the Chairman of the Hawkers Select Committee surely the main subsidization at present is in Hawker Permitted Areas where we are subsidizing, or the public is subsidizing, unlicensed hawkers which perhaps, you would agree, should be licensed.

CHAIRMAN (in English):-Are you asking for an opinion? (Laughter). The first part is in order, so Dr. Hu will answer it. (Laughter).

DR. HU (in English):-Most of the hawkers trading in the Hawker Permitted Areas are unlicensed, but some of them are licensed.

MR. BERNACCHI (in English):-Can the Hawkers Select Committee again consider whether they should be licensed?

DR. HU (in English):-Yes, that is a very good question. We will consider this question together with two questions raised by Mrs. ELLIOTT earlier on.

MR. F. K. Hu (in English):-Mr. Chairman, Dr. Hu mentioned the income from licence fees, $10 million. Is that income received in this current fiscal year or for the coming fiscal year?

DR. HU (in English):-We have already started to receive it because we passed the resolution on increasing the license fees in December last year.

MR. KENNETH T. C. Lo (in English):-Mr. Chairman, Dr. Hu's reply refers to expenditure of hawker control and administration, does that include the cost of cleansing in streets where hawkers operate?

DR. HU (in English):-I don't think so, Mr. Chairman, because administration includes the emoluments-salaries of Urban Services Department staff.

MR. C. K. CHAN (in English):-Mr. Chairman, of course, when the Committee consider the question of cleansing, the Urban Council do charge the rate-payer 6% out of the 18% of the rate.

DR. HU (in English):-Of course we must consider the administration as a whole and also the hawker management. I think probably that will answer Mr. Chan's question.

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Page 62 of 135 90 HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL If the five G.D. teams are recruited to full establishment, the additional cost per annum would be $457,511. MR. MACKENZIE (in English):-Mr. Chairman, I am concerned about the very substantial and rapid escalation of costs in this particular area. If the establishment of Hawker Control Force and General Duties Teams are filled in the next year, there will be, I understand, from this reply, an expenditure of some $30 million, but can the Hawkers Select Committee Chairman advise whether, in fact, this will represent an ultimate establishment necessary for this particular job of administration in control of hawkers, or is there likely to be further substantial increases in the establishment of these Forces? DR. HU (in English):-For the moment, I should think $23 million is a reasonable estimate. There will be no immediate increase of expenses. MR. MACKENZIE (in English):-Mr. Chairman, may I ask that before the Hawkers Select Committee enters into a firm commitment in relation to establishment and recruitment in Hawker Control Force and General Duties Teams, that this question of costing receive consideration of the Council? DR. HU (in English):-Of course. It is the concern for everybody, and it is also my concern. But in order to control hawkers, to a reasonable level, this is a necessary expense. In return, we will receive about $10 million revenue from hawker licence fees, and licence fees will be increased in future. MR. MACKENZIE (in English):-Mr. Chairman, with due respect to my distinguished colleague, may I say that necessary expenses must relate to policies and that the policy of the Hawker Control Force is a matter for consideration in terms of number and cost. DR. HU (in English):-The policy is, for the moment, that we will increase 70 members of Hawker Control Forces next year and we will see whether the Hawker Control Force should have the full strength of 473 men. We have only 218 men, so what we spend for the GDT can be offset by this reduction of Hawker Control Force, there is no additional expense for the moment. MR. FORSGATE (in English):-Mr. Chairman, from what I heard Dr. Hu say in his reply we would appear to be subsidizing hawkers to the sum of $16 million this year and probably even greater next year. I would like the Hawkers Select Committee to bear that in mind when considering hawker licence fees in future. HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL 91 DR. HU (in English):-I just want to correct my colleague. It is not $16 million. The difference is about $11 million for this year. We certainly will bear that point in mind. MR. B. A. BERNACCHI (in English):-Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask the Chairman of the Hawkers Select Committee surely the main subsidization at present is in Hawker Permitted Areas where we are subsidizing, or the public is subsidizing, unlicensed hawkers which perhaps, you would agree, should be licensed. CHAIRMAN (in English):-Are you asking for an opinion? (Laughter). The first part is in order, so Dr. Hu will answer it. (Laughter). DR. HU (in English):-Most of the hawkers trading in the Hawker Permitted Areas are unlicensed, but some of them are licensed. MR. BERNACCHI (in English):-Can the Hawkers Select Committee again consider whether they should be licensed? DR. HU (in English):-Yes, that is a very good question. We will consider this question together with two questions raised by Mrs. ELLIOTT earlier on. MR. F. K. Hu (in English):-Mr. Chairman, Dr. Hu mentioned the income from licence fees, $10 million. Is that income received in this current fiscal year or for the coming fiscal year? DR. HU (in English):-We have already started to receive it because we passed the resolution on increasing the license fees in December last year. MR. KENNETH T. C. Lo (in English):-Mr. Chairman, Dr. Hu's reply refers to expenditure of hawker control and administration, does that include the cost of cleansing in streets where hawkers operate? DR. HU (in English):-I don't think so, Mr. Chairman, because administration includes the emoluments-salaries of Urban Services Department staff. MR. C. K. CHAN (in English):-Mr. Chairman, of course, when the Committee consider the question of cleansing, the Urban Council do charge the rate-payer 6% out of the 18% of the rate. DR. HU (in English):-Of course we must consider the administration as a whole and also the hawker management. I think probably that will answer Mr. Chan's question. Page 62 of 135

Baseline (Original)

Page 62 of 135 90 HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL If the five G.D. teams are recruited to full establishment, the additional cost per annum would be $457,511. MR. MACKENZIE (in English):-Mr. Chairman, I am concerned about the very substantial and rapid escalation of costs in this partic- ular area. If the establishment of Hawker Control Force and General Duties Teams are filled in the next year, there will be, I understand, from this reply, an expenditure of some $30 million, but can the Hawkers Select Committee Chairman advise whether, in fact, this will represent an ultimate establishment necessary for this particular job of administration in control of hawkers, or is there likely to be further substantial increases in the establishment of these Forces? DR. HU (in English):-For the moment, I should think $23 million is a reasonable estimate. There will be no immediate increase of expenses. MR. MACKENZIE (in English): --Mr. Chairman, may I ask that before the Hawkers Select Committee enters into a firm commitment in relation to establishment and recruitment in Hawker Control Force and General Duties Teams, that this question of costing receive con- sideration of the Council? DR. HU (in English):-Of course. It is the concern for everybody, and it is also my concern. But in order to control hawkers, to a reasonable level, this is a necessary expense. In return, we will receive about $10 million revenue from hawker licence fees, and licence fees will be increased in future. MR. MACKENZIE (in English): --Mr. Chairman, with due respect to my distinguished colleague, may I say that necessary expenses must relate to policies and that the policy of the Hawker Control Force is a matter for consideration in terms of number and cost. DR. HU (in English):-The policy is, for the moment, that we will increase 70 members of Hawker Control Forces next year and we will see whether the Hawker Control Force should have the full strength of 473 men. We have only 218 men, so what we spend for the GDT can be offset by this reduction of Hawker Control Force, there is no additional expense for the moment. MR. FORSGATE (in English):-Mr. Chairman, from what I heard Dr. Hu say in his reply we would appear to be subsidizing hawkers to the sum of $16 million this year and probably even greater next year. I would like the Hawkers Select Committee to bear that in mind when considering hawker licence fees in future. HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL 91 DR. HU (in English):-I just want to correct my colleague. It is not $16 million. The difference is about $11 million for this year. We certainly will bear that point in mind. MR. B. A. BERNACCHI (in English): -Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask the Chairman of the Hawkers Select Committee surely the main subsidization at present is in Hawker Permitted Areas where we are subsidizing, or the public is subsidizing, unlicensed hawkers which perhaps, you would agree, should be licensed. CHAIRMAN (in English):-Are you asking for an opinion? (Laughter). The first part is in order, so Dr. Hu will answer it. (Laughter). DR. HU (in English):-Most of the hawkers trading in the Hawker Permitted Areas are unlicensed, but some of them are licensed. MR. BERNACCHI (in English):--Can the Hawkers Select Committee again consider whether they should be licensed? DR. HU (in English): --Yes, that is a very good question. We will consider this question together with two questions raised by Mrs. ELLIOTT earlier on. MR. F. K. Hu (in English):-Mr. Chairman, Dr. Hu mentioned the income from licence fees, $10 million. Is that income received in this current fiscal year or for the coming fiscal year? DR. HU (in English):-We have already started to receive it because we passed the resolution on increasing the license fees in December last year. MR. KENNETH T. C. Lo (in English):-Mr. Chairman, Dr. Hu's reply refers to expenditure of hawker control and administration, does that include the cost of cleansing in streets where hawkers operate? DR. HU (in English):-I don't think so, Mr. Chairman, because administration includes the emoluments-salaries of Urban Services Department staff. MR. C. K. CHAN (in English): Mr. Chairman, of course, when the Committee consider the question of cleansing, the Urban Council do charge the rate-payer 6% out of the 18% of the rate. DR. HU (in English):-Of course we must consider the administra- tion as a whole and also the hawker management. I think probably that will answer Mr. Chan's question.

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Page 62 of 135

HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL

If the five G.D. teams are recruited to full establishment, the

additional cost per annum would be $457,511.

MR. MACKENZIE (in English):-Mr. Chairman, I am concerned about the very substantial and rapid escalation of costs in this partic- ular area. If the establishment of Hawker Control Force and General Duties Teams are filled in the next year, there will be, I understand, from this reply, an expenditure of some $30 million, but can the Hawkers Select Committee Chairman advise whether, in fact, this will represent an ultimate establishment necessary for this particular job of administration in control of hawkers, or is there likely to be further substantial increases in the establishment of these Forces?

DR. HU (in English):-For the moment, I should think $23 million is a reasonable estimate. There will be no immediate increase of expenses.

MR. MACKENZIE (in English): --Mr. Chairman, may I ask that before the Hawkers Select Committee enters into a firm commitment in relation to establishment and recruitment in Hawker Control Force and General Duties Teams, that this question of costing receive con- sideration of the Council?

MR. MACKENZIE (in English): --Mr. Chairman, with due respect to my distinguished colleague, may I say that necessary expenses must relate to policies and that the policy of the Hawker Control Force is a matter for consideration in terms of number and cost.

HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL

DR. HU (in English):-I just want to correct my colleague. It is not $16 million. The difference is about $11 million for this year. We certainly will bear that point in mind.

MR. B. A. BERNACCHI (in English): -Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask the Chairman of the Hawkers Select Committee surely the main subsidization at present is in Hawker Permitted Areas where we are subsidizing, or the public is subsidizing, unlicensed hawkers which perhaps, you would agree, should be licensed.

CHAIRMAN (in English):-Are you asking for an opinion? (Laughter). The first part is in order, so Dr. Hu will answer it. (Laughter).

DR. HU (in English):-Most of the hawkers trading in the Hawker Permitted Areas are unlicensed, but some of them are licensed.

MR. BERNACCHI (in English):--Can the Hawkers Select Committee again consider whether they should be licensed?

DR. HU (in English): --Yes, that is a very good question. We will consider this question together with two questions raised by Mrs. ELLIOTT earlier on.

MR. F. K. Hu (in English):-Mr. Chairman, Dr. Hu mentioned the income from licence fees, $10 million. Is that income received in this current fiscal year or for the coming fiscal year?

DR. HU (in English):-We have already started to receive it because we passed the resolution on increasing the license fees in December last year.

MR. KENNETH T. C. Lo (in English):-Mr. Chairman, Dr. Hu's reply refers to expenditure of hawker control and administration, does that include the cost of cleansing in streets where hawkers operate?

DR. HU (in English):-I don't think so, Mr. Chairman, because administration includes the emoluments-salaries of Urban Services Department staff.

MR. C. K. CHAN (in English): Mr. Chairman, of course, when the Committee consider the question of cleansing, the Urban Council do charge the rate-payer 6% out of the 18% of the rate.

DR. HU (in English):-Of course we must consider the administra- tion as a whole and also the hawker management. I think probably that will answer Mr. Chan's question.

1976 — Page 62

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