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the time. What we intended to do is to put all the hawkers into a certain permitted area, but I feel that our purpose has been defeated because most unlicensed hawkers are still outside the hawker licensed areas. Mr. Hu's second point is about structures in these areas. I am also given to understand by the Urban Services Department that the hawkers use some wooden structures to place on a certain site as a kind of reservation. So if we cannot solve these two problems, the problems still exist.
MR. HU (in English):-Dr. HUANG is not correct when he said that 80% of the hawkers rejected the "First Come, First Served" Scheme and when he said that the hawkers cannot get in. I personally have been in Tung Choi Street for two nights, from 9 o'clock in the evening to 1 o'clock next morning. The streets start to be clear from 11.30 in the night, and at the midnight the street is entirely clear. Cars can go along so there is no such thing that the hawkers of next morning cannot go into the site. There is no such block on this site. I personally can guarantee this because I was there for two nights. I was there for four hours. So it is natural that the hawkers who come first can get the best site. Naturally there are some good points and some bad points in any measure and struggling for a good site next morning certainly is not pleasant for anybody. For example, if a hawker wants to have a good site, he must get up early, whilst if a site has been allocated to him, he can go there any time at 9 o'clock or at 10 o'clock. These are the pros and cons. We, the Hawkers Select Committee, work very carefully because, in my humble views, this Hawker Permitted area is not only a temporary benefit to Hong Kong, it may be that we can solve the hawker problem at least to a small degree. I think it is worthwhile for us to be a little bit patient. Let the Hawkers Select Committee digest it thoroughly as, in any case, it only has been in existence for two months. We still have four months to go.
DR. HUANG (in Cantonese):-Mr. Chairman, I would like to add that I have also personally visited the Hawker Permitted Areas. Conditions vary from street to street. What I was told by the two staff about the conditions in the street may be in areas not visited by Mr. Hu. In future, I will give details of obstruction in the street to Mr. Hu.
MR. HU (in English):-Please inform the Select Committee.
MR. B. A. BERNACCHI (in English):-Mr. Chairman, I would like to make a personal statement. I think it is unfair on the Hawkers Select Committee and the Chairman, in particular, to have this debate, because it is apparently a debate, on the original questions, at this time
HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL
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when the pilot scheme is an experimental pilot scheme for six months, of which 4 months has yet to expire.
MR. PETER C. K. CHAN (in Cantonese):-Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask about Miss YEUNG's fourth question which is about sanitary control in the Hawker Permitted Area. This not only relates to cleansing but there may be cooked food being sold in this street and there may be fish on sale there. Since Mr. BERNACCHI has said that there are a lot of things and Mr. Hu, being the Chairman, has not been given sufficient notice to answer on all aspects of the question,
CHAIRMAN (in English):-On a point of clarification. First, Miss Cecilia YEUNG did not ask four questions, only three (Laughter) and you are referring to her second question (Laughter). And, secondly, Mr. BERNACCHI stood up to make a personal statement, drawing the Chairman's attention, and that of the Council, to the fact that questions are becoming the pretext for a debate contrary to Standing Order 12. No questions can be used for a debate. Can you now confine your remarks to your supplementary question?
MR. PETER C. K. CHAN (in Cantonese):-My supplementary question is controlling the sanitary conditions there and thus it not only relates to the cleansing of the streets. I would like to ask Mr. Hu whether he has sufficient information to answer questions on all aspects of sanitary conditions. If not, can this question be discussed at the next Hawkers Select Committee meeting or we can ask for a report from the Urban Services Department for detailed discussion.
CHAIRMAN (in English):-What additional sanitary control do you have in mind, and do you think Miss Cecilia YEUNG had in mind, when she put down the question? (Laughter).
MR. CHAN (in Cantonese):-I personally think that these points need to be answered. If Mr. Hu does not have this information, perhaps he can gather it and discuss it at the Hawkers Select Committee. Since I am a Member of the Committee, I have the right to ask that this be done.
CHAIRMAN (in English):-Even though I should rule you out of order, I will not. I will ask that your question be referred to the Hawkers Select Committee to clarify the position for you although, personally, I do not know what you want to have clarified in addition.
MR. CHAN (in Cantonese):-The thing is that this be discussed at the Hawkers Select Committee.
Page 26 of 154
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the time. What we intended to do is to put all the hawkers into a certain permitted area, but I feel that our purpose has been defeated because most unlicensed hawkers are still outside the hawker licensed I am areas. Mr. Hu's second point is about structures in these areas. also given to understand by the Urban Services Department that the hawkers use some wooden structures to place on a certain site as a kind of reservation. So if we cannot solve these two problems, the problems still exist.
MR. HU (in English):-Dr. HUANG is not correct when he said that 80% of the hawkers rejected the "First Come, First Served" Scheme and when he said that the hawkers cannot get in. I personally have been in Tung Choi Street for two nights, from 9 o'clock in the evening to 1 o'clock next morning. The streets start to be clear from 11.30 in the night, and at the midnight the street is entirely clear. Cars can go along so there is no such thing that the hawkers of next morning can- not go into the site. There is no such block on this site. I personally can guarantee this because I was there for two nights. I was there for four hours. So it is natural that the hawkers who come first can get the best site. Naturally there are some points and some bad points in any measure and struggling for good site next morning certainly is not pleasant for anybody. For example, if a hawker wants to have a good site, he must get up early, whilst if a site has been allocated to him, he can go there any time at 9 o'clock or at 10 o'clock. These are the pros and cons. We, the Hawkers Select Committee, work very carefully because, in my humble views, this Hawker Permitted area is not only a temporary benefit to Hong Kong, it may be that we can solve the hawker problem at least to a small degree. I think it is worthwhile for us to be a little bit patient. Let the Hawkers Select Committee digest it thoroughly as, in any case, it only has been in existence for two months. We still have four months to go.
DR. HUANG (in Cantonese): -Mr. Chairman, I would like to add that I have also personally visited the Hawker Permitted Areas. Con- ditions vary from street to street. What I was told by the two staff about the conditions in the street may be in areas not visited by Mr. Hu. In future, I will give details of obstruction in the street to Mr. Hu. MR. HU (in English):-Please inform the Select Committee.
MR. B. A. BERNACCHI (in English):-Mr. Chairman, I would like to make a personal statement. I think it is unfair on the Hawkers Select Committee and the Chairman, in particular, to have this debate, because it is apparently a debate, on the original questions, at this time
HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL
21
when the pilot scheme is an experimental pilot scheme for six months, of which 4 months has yet to expire.
MR. PETER C. K. CHAN (in Cantonese): -Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask about Miss YEUNG's fourth question which is about sanitary control in the Hawker Permitted Area. This not only relates to cleansing but there may be cooked food being sold in this street and there may be fish on sale there. Since Mr. BERNACCHI has said that there are a lot of things and Mr. Hu, being the Chairman, has not been given sufficient notice to answer on all aspects of the question,
L
CHAIRMAN (in English):-On a point of clarification. First, Miss Cecilia YEUNG did not ask four questions, only three (Laughter) and you are referring to her second question (Laughter). And, secondly, Mr. BERNACCHI stood up to make a personal statement, drawing the Chair- man's attention, and that of the Council, to the fact that questions are becoming the pretext for a debate contrary to Standing Order 12. No questions can be used for a debate. Can you now confine your remarks to your supplementary question?
MR. PETER C. K. CHAN (in Cantonese): -My supplementary ques- tion is controlling the sanitary conditions there and thus it not only relates to the cleansing of the streets. I would like to ask Mr. Hu whether he has sufficient information to answer questions on all aspects of sanitary conditions. If not, can this question be discussed at the next Hawkers Select Committee meeting or we can ask for a report from the Urban Services Department for detailed discussion.
CHAIRMAN (in English):-What additional sanitary control do you have in mind, and do you think Miss Cecilia YEUNG had in mind, when she put down the question? (Laughter).
MR. CHAN (in Cantonese): -I personally think that these points need to be answered. If Mr. Hu does not have this information, perhaps he can gather it and discuss it at the Hawkers Select Com- mittee. Since I am a Member of the Committee, I have the right to ask that this be done.
CHAIRMAN (in English): -Even though I should rule you out of order, I will not. I will ask that your question be referred to the Hawkers Select Committee to clarify the position for you although, personally, I do not know what you want to have clarified in addition.
MR. CHAN (in Cantonese):-The thing is that this be discussed at the Hawkers Select Committee.
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