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I do

matter of which a formal notice of motion that has been given. not remember any previous Chairman exercising that right on any private motion, i.e. a motion that had not been initiated by or referred to the Urban Services Department for their support.

I now formally move this motion.

MISS CECILIA L. Y. YEUNG (in Cantonese):-Mr. Chairman, I sup- port Mr. BERNACCHI's motion. As I said before, I've already supported the two motions of Mr. BERNACCHI.

CHAIRMAN (in English):-The motion has been proposed by Mr. BERNACCHI and seconded by Miss YEUNG. Does any Member wish to take the floor on this motion?

MRS. E. ELLIOTT (in English):-Mr. Chairman, this motion high- lights the fact that the motions proposed by individual Members are being thrown out without ever reaching the public ear. In my opinion, any member has the right to propose any motion even though at times such a motion may propose action that has already been carried out by the relevant committee, or the motion may seem to be contrary to Urban Council policies or bylaws. Without such motions, bylaws may remain stagnant forever, in spite of public opinion and in spite of changed circumstances requiring such changes. It is already required that motions outside the scope of the Council's jurisdiction must first be placed before the Standing Committee for approval. But it will be a sad day for this Council if all motions within our jurisdiction may also be decided in closed meetings of the Standing Committee without ever coming to the attention of the public. Should this happen, I for one will find alternative ways of putting those matters before the public and this could be worse for the Council than a public debate in this Urban Council Chamber. Mr. Chairman, I support the motion.

MR. TSIN SAI-NIN (in Cantonese): -Mr. Chairman, about this motion, Mr. BERNACCHI said that I am now sitting on the fence. No, I resolutely oppose the motion. The main reason, I sympathize with his spirit but firstly I objected that whether the English and Chinese versions of the motions were different. I want, Mr. Chairman, to ask whether the Chinese translation of the motion is correct?

CHAIRMAN (in English): --The motion in the Chinese order paper has been officially translated by the Department for the Council.

MR. TSIN (in Cantonese): ---If it is legal, then I, accordingly, speak in Chinese on it. I explained the reasons of my opposition, but I supplement my opposition because the motion is unclear. The first motion, he said he includes something, he said he excludes something.

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And the second motion, there were words like "without prejudice” and there are words like "prevented from being placed on the order papers". All these were unclear. Also, as I said, I only sympathize with his spirit. I did not say I do not think that he should have raised this thing at all, so that I am not sitting on the fence. I indeed think he is wrong. I have said the Urban Council has several undemocratic things, things which would have to be amended, but things cannot be done overnight, but we cannot make use of the Urban Council to publicize ourselves and I have made myself quite clear. Therefore, although I sympathize with some of the contents of the motion, I resolutely oppose

the motion.

MR. CHARLES C. C. SIN (in English):—Mr. Chairman, regarding Mr. BERNACCHI's second motion, I would not support it because, whilst a motion may be within the jurisdiction of this Council, this motion can be repugnant to the statutory requirements which this Council has to carry out. And furthermore, a motion can also be a vexatious. For example, this motion may not be in the interest of the Council to be debated, so on these grounds, Mr. Chairman, I would not support the motion.

CHAIRMAN (in English):—No other Members wish to take the floor? May I then asked Mr. BERNACCHI to exercise his right of reply?

MR. B. A. BERNACCHI (in English):-Mr. Chairman, my friend, Mrs. ELLIOTT supports the motion and I have nothing to comment on her speech except to say that I entirely agree with it. Mr. TSIN asked, or said, that the motion is unclear. Again assuming that the motion has been rightly interpreted and I have your assurance that the interpretation was done by the Council's own experienced staff, I do not see what is the problem. The object of the motion, first of all, is that no motion which falls within the jurisdiction of the Council

MR. CHARLES C. C. SIN (in English):-Mr. Chairman, may I clarify. I used "a motion". I should have said "the motion".

MR. BERNACCHI (in English):-That no motion which falls within the jurisdiction of the Council should be prevented from being placed on the order paper. Now the order paper means the agenda for this public meeting, so it means that nobody can prevent and, in particular, the Standing Committee cannot prevent, a motion being placed on the order paper, i.e. on the agenda for this public meeting, if it falls within the jurisdiction of the Council, and then I add that this does not mean that without prejudice. This does not mean that the right of the Chairman to refer any matter to Standing Committee for advice is being