1971 — Page 198

Urban Council Proceedings 市政局議事錄 All AI Reviewed

Page 198 of 242

376

HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL

COMMISSIONER FOR RESETTLEMENT:- Mr. Chairman, there is a constant flow of complaints and appeals that reach my department and we apply the normal procedures, I think normal in all Government Departments, that is if the action of one particular officer is complained against, then the case should be studied at the next higher level. I think this is a practical way of going about these matters and dealing with such complaints. We of course don't claim to be infallible. I am sure once in a while we might make a mistake, but again if Mrs. ELLIOTT knows of any particular case where she thinks there is a clear case of injustice then I do hope she will write to the department and give me the facts.

MRS. ELLIOTT:- Mr. Chairman, can the Commissioner tell me what is the purpose or the benefit in appealing to his department when I just get the answer from the same person every time that this hut has been demolished so many times. There is no means of appeal and that is that and the department is never wrong.

COMMISSIONER FOR RESETTLEMENT:- Mr. Chairman, we are not acting here in some whimsical, arbitrary way. We are enforcing the provisions of the 1964 White Paper on squatter control. We are doing no more or no less.

MRS. ELLIOTT:- Mr. Chairman, I don't think that is quite the problem. May I ask if it is not correct that the officers will say they have demolished even if they haven't? I believe in most cases they do, but in cases where they haven't, wouldn't it be to their detriment to admit that they have demolished it, not demolished it, rather?

MR. BERNACCHI:- Arising out of this question, I would like to ascertain from the Commissioner whether he will observe that as some, but not all of his predecessors observed, a resolution of this Council passed some years ago, not on the whole to demolish squatter huts that have been put up and remain undiscovered for over one year?

COMMISSIONER FOR RESETTLEMENT:- Mr. Chairman, I would need notice of that question but certainly at first blush I would say, I would not implement any such resolution, I think it would be a wrong resolution.

MR. BERNACCHI:- Well, it was a resolution, and some of the Commissioner's predecessors, including Mr. BARTY for instance, observed it to the letter. His immediate predecessor was inclined to disregard it. I would like to know where the present Commissioner for Resettlement stands.

MRS. ELLIOTT:- Mr. Chairman, there is one other point about which I would like to ask. The Commissioner said that most of these people were using these huts for business and profit. I am sorry to contradict, but in cases where they are being used for domestic purposes, would a person be willing to go on for years and years having a hut demolished if there wasn't a need. What do we do about these people? Why don't the officers refer the matter for proper resite?

COMMISSIONER FOR RESETTLEMENT:- Mr. Chairman, we are getting well outside this Council's area of competence when we are dealing with Part II of this Ordinance. I have answered these questions out of courtesy so far, but I think there must be a limit, Mr. Chairman. However, Mrs. ELLIOTT has touched upon a very human point so I would like to deal with it, and that is if any person is unhoused in this way, and can prove to my department that he or she is thereby genuinely homeless, then we do offer them a site for a hut in a licensed area and that I think, possibly, is the best we can do.

MR. BERNACCHI: Is the Commissioner for Resettlement aware that by long-standing custom acknowledged by the Government as a whole, although the Commissioner for Resettlement is the statutory authority for some parts of the Resettlement Ordinance he does consult the Urban Council as to the performance of his duties?

CHAIRMAN:- I am afraid I must rule your question out of order, Mr. BERNACCHI.

MOTIONS.

(1) Resumption of the following motion moved by Mr. B. A. BERNACCHI at the meeting of the Council held on 2nd November, 1971:-

"That this Council endorse the Statement of Aims for 1972."

CHAIRMAN:- Ladies and gentlemen, we will now resume the debate on the Motion "That this Council endorse the Statement of Aims for 1972", the Official Members replying to the points raised by our Unofficial colleagues at the meeting held on 2nd and 4th November. The first speaker today is The Commissioner for Resettlement.

COMMISSIONER FOR RESETTLEMENT: — Mr. Chairman, this debate, in which the Council will adopt its aims in the resettlement field for the coming year is, I believe, an occasion for taking stock, for recognizing success and failure, for drawing the right conclusions from what has gone past and for setting our sights on the right targets for the coming year. I intend therefore, once I have dealt with specific points made by individual members, to roam more widely and I hope therefore that Members will bear with me while I offer a few thoughts along these lines, and allow me to speak for rather longer than I would have wished.

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Page 198 of 242 376 HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL COMMISSIONER FOR RESETTLEMENT:- Mr. Chairman, there is a constant flow of complaints and appeals that reach my department and we apply the normal procedures, I think normal in all Government Departments, that is if the action of one particular officer is complained against, then the case should be studied at the next higher level. I think this is a practical way of going about these matters and dealing with such complaints. We of course don't claim to be infallible. I am sure once in a while we might make a mistake, but again if Mrs. ELLIOTT knows of any particular case where she thinks there is a clear case of injustice then I do hope she will write to the department and give me the facts. MRS. ELLIOTT:- Mr. Chairman, can the Commissioner tell me what is the purpose or the benefit in appealing to his department when I just get the answer from the same person every time that this hut has been demolished so many times. There is no means of appeal and that is that and the department is never wrong. COMMISSIONER FOR RESETTLEMENT:- Mr. Chairman, we are not acting here in some whimsical, arbitrary way. We are enforcing the provisions of the 1964 White Paper on squatter control. We are doing no more or no less. MRS. ELLIOTT:- Mr. Chairman, I don't think that is quite the problem. May I ask if it is not correct that the officers will say they have demolished even if they haven't? I believe in most cases they do, but in cases where they haven't, wouldn't it be to their detriment to admit that they have demolished it, not demolished it, rather? MR. BERNACCHI:- Arising out of this question, I would like to ascertain from the Commissioner whether he will observe that as some, but not all of his predecessors observed, a resolution of this Council passed some years ago, not on the whole to demolish squatter huts that have been put up and remain undiscovered for over one year? COMMISSIONER FOR RESETTLEMENT:- Mr. Chairman, I would need notice of that question but certainly at first blush I would say, I would not implement any such resolution, I think it would be a wrong resolution. MR. BERNACCHI:- Well, it was a resolution, and some of the Commissioner's predecessors, including Mr. BARTY for instance, observed it to the letter. His immediate predecessor was inclined to disregard it. I would like to know where the present Commissioner for Resettlement stands. MRS. ELLIOTT:- Mr. Chairman, there is one other point about which I would like to ask. The Commissioner said that most of these people were using these huts for business and profit. I am sorry to contradict, but in cases where they are being used for domestic purposes, would a person be willing to go on for years and years having a hut demolished if there wasn't a need. What do we do about these people? Why don't the officers refer the matter for proper resite? COMMISSIONER FOR RESETTLEMENT:- Mr. Chairman, we are getting well outside this Council's area of competence when we are dealing with Part II of this Ordinance. I have answered these questions out of courtesy so far, but I think there must be a limit, Mr. Chairman. However, Mrs. ELLIOTT has touched upon a very human point so I would like to deal with it, and that is if any person is unhoused in this way, and can prove to my department that he or she is thereby genuinely homeless, then we do offer them a site for a hut in a licensed area and that I think, possibly, is the best we can do. MR. BERNACCHI: Is the Commissioner for Resettlement aware that by long-standing custom acknowledged by the Government as a whole, although the Commissioner for Resettlement is the statutory authority for some parts of the Resettlement Ordinance he does consult the Urban Council as to the performance of his duties? CHAIRMAN:- I am afraid I must rule your question out of order, Mr. BERNACCHI. MOTIONS. (1) Resumption of the following motion moved by Mr. B. A. BERNACCHI at the meeting of the Council held on 2nd November, 1971:- "That this Council endorse the Statement of Aims for 1972." CHAIRMAN:- Ladies and gentlemen, we will now resume the debate on the Motion "That this Council endorse the Statement of Aims for 1972", the Official Members replying to the points raised by our Unofficial colleagues at the meeting held on 2nd and 4th November. The first speaker today is The Commissioner for Resettlement. COMMISSIONER FOR RESETTLEMENT: — Mr. Chairman, this debate, in which the Council will adopt its aims in the resettlement field for the coming year is, I believe, an occasion for taking stock, for recognizing success and failure, for drawing the right conclusions from what has gone past and for setting our sights on the right targets for the coming year. I intend therefore, once I have dealt with specific points made by individual members, to roam more widely and I hope therefore that Members will bear with me while I offer a few thoughts along these lines, and allow me to speak for rather longer than I would have wished. 376 HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL 377 Page 199 of 242

Baseline (Original)

242 Page 198 of 242 376 HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL COMMISSIONER FOR RESETTLEMENT:-Mr. Chairman, there is a constant flow of complaints and appeals that reach my department and we apply the normal procedures, I think normal in all Government Departments, that is if the action of one particular officer is complained against, then the case should be studied at the next higher level. I think this is a practical way of going about these matters and dealing with such complaints. We of course don't claim to be infallible. I am sure once in a while we might make a mistake, but again if Mrs. ELLIOTT knows of any particular case where she thinks there is a clear case of injustice then I do hope she will write to the department and give me the facts. MRS. ELLIOTT:-Mr. Chairman, can the Commissioner tell me what is the purpose or the benefit in appealing to his department when I just get the answer from the same person every time that this hut has been demolished so many times. There is no means of appeal and that is that and the department is never wrong. COMMISSIONER FOR RESETTLEMENT:-Mr. Chairman, we are not acting here in some whimsical, arbitrary way. We are enforcing the provisions of the 1964 White Paper on squatter control. We are doing no more or no less. MRS. ELLIOTT:-Mr. Chairman, I don't think that is quite the problem. May I ask if it is not correct that the officers will say they have demolished even if they haven't? I believe in most cases they do, but in cases where they haven't, wouldn't it be to their detriment to admit that they have demolished it, not demolished it, rather? MR. BERNACCHI:-Arising out of this question, I would like to ascertain from the Commissioner whether he will observe that as some, but not all of his predecessors observed, a resolution of this Council passed some years ago, not on the whole to demolish squatter huts that have been put up and remain undiscovered for over one year? COMMISSIONER FOR RESETTLEMENT:-Mr. Chairman, I would need notice of that question but certainly at first blush I would say, I would not implement any such resolution, I think it would be a wrong resolution. no. MR. BERNACCHI:-Well, it was a resolution, and some of the Commissioner's predecessors, including Mr. BARTY for instance, observed it to the letter. His immediate predecessor was inclined to disregard it. I would like to know where the present Commissioner for Resettle- ment stands. MRS. ELLIOTT:-Mr. Chairman, there is one other point about which I would like to ask. The Commissioner said that most of these I HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL 377 people were using these huts for business and profit. I am sorry to contradict, but in cases where they are being used for domestic pur- poses, would a person be willing to go on for years and years having a hut demolished if there wasn't a need. What do we do about these people? Why don't the officers refer the matter for proper resite? COMMISSIONER FOR RESETTLEMENT:-Mr. Chairman, we are get- ting well outside this Council's area of competence when we are dealing with Part II of this Ordinance. I have answered these questions out of courtesy so far, but I think there must be a limit, Mr. Chairman. However, Mrs. ELLIOTT has touched upon a very human point so I would like to deal with it, and that is if any person is unhoused in this way, and can prove to my department that he or she is thereby genuinely homeless, then we do offer them a site for a hut in a licensed area and that I think, possibly, is the best we can do. MR. BERNACCHI: Is the Commissioner for Resettlement aware that by long-standing custom acknowledged by the Government as a whole, although the Commissioner for Resettlement is the statutory authority for some parts of the Resettlement Ordinance he does consult the Urban Council as to the performance of his duties? CHAIRMAN:-I am afraid I must rule your question out of order, Mr. BERNACCHI. MOTIONS. (1) Resumption of the following motion moved by Mr. B. A. BERNACCHI at the meeting of the Council held on 2nd November, 1971:- "That this Council endorse the Statement of Aims for 1972." CHAIRMAN:-Ladies and gentlemen, we will now resume the debate on the Motion "That this Council endorse the Statement of Aims for 1972", the Official Members replying to the points raised by our Unofficial colleagues at the meeting held on 2nd and 4th November. The first speaker today is The Commissioner for Resettle- ment. COMMISSIONER FOR RESETTLEMENT: —Mr. Chairman, this debate, in which the Council will adopt its aims in the resettlement field for the coming year is, I believe, an occasion for taking stock, for rec- ognizing success and failure, for drawing the right conclusions from what has gone past and for setting our sights on the right targets for the coming year. I intend therefore, once I have dealt with specific points made by individual members, to roam more widely and I hope therefore that Members will bear with me while I offer a few thoughts along these lines, and allow me to speak for rather longer than I would have wished.

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242

Page 198 of 242

376

HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL

COMMISSIONER FOR RESETTLEMENT:-Mr. Chairman, there is a constant flow of complaints and appeals that reach my department and we apply the normal procedures, I think normal in all Government Departments, that is if the action of one particular officer is complained against, then the case should be studied at the next higher level. I think this is a practical way of going about these matters and dealing with such complaints. We of course don't claim to be infallible. I am sure once in a while we might make a mistake, but again if Mrs. ELLIOTT knows of any particular case where she thinks there is a clear case of injustice then I do hope she will write to the department and give me the facts.

MRS. ELLIOTT:-Mr. Chairman, can the Commissioner tell me what is the purpose or the benefit in appealing to his department when I just get the answer from the same person every time that this hut has been demolished so many times. There is no means of appeal and that is that and the department is never wrong.

COMMISSIONER FOR RESETTLEMENT:-Mr. Chairman, we are not acting here in some whimsical, arbitrary way. We are enforcing the provisions of the 1964 White Paper on squatter control. We are doing

no more or no less.

MRS. ELLIOTT:-Mr. Chairman, I don't think that is quite the problem. May I ask if it is not correct that the officers will say they have demolished even if they haven't? I believe in most cases they do, but in cases where they haven't, wouldn't it be to their detriment to admit that they have demolished it, not demolished it, rather?

MR. BERNACCHI:-Arising out of this question, I would like to ascertain from the Commissioner whether he will observe that as some, but not all of his predecessors observed, a resolution of this Council passed some years ago, not on the whole to demolish squatter huts that have been put up and remain undiscovered for over one year?

COMMISSIONER FOR RESETTLEMENT:-Mr. Chairman, I would need notice of that question but certainly at first blush I would say, I would not implement any such resolution, I think it would be a wrong resolution.

no.

MR. BERNACCHI:-Well, it was a resolution, and some of the Commissioner's predecessors, including Mr. BARTY for instance, observed it to the letter. His immediate predecessor was inclined to disregard it. I would like to know where the present Commissioner for Resettle- ment stands.

MRS. ELLIOTT:-Mr. Chairman, there is one other point about which I would like to ask. The Commissioner said that most of these

HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL

377

people were using these huts for business and profit. I am sorry to contradict, but in cases where they are being used for domestic pur- poses, would a person be willing to go on for years and years having a hut demolished if there wasn't a need. What do we do about these people? Why don't the officers refer the matter for proper resite?

COMMISSIONER FOR RESETTLEMENT:-Mr. Chairman, we are get- ting well outside this Council's area of competence when we are dealing with Part II of this Ordinance. I have answered these questions out of courtesy so far, but I think there must be a limit, Mr. Chairman. However, Mrs. ELLIOTT has touched upon a very human point so I would like to deal with it, and that is if any person is unhoused in this way, and can prove to my department that he or she is thereby genuinely homeless, then we do offer them a site for a hut in a licensed area and that I think, possibly, is the best we can do.

CHAIRMAN:-I am afraid I must rule your question out of order, Mr. BERNACCHI.

MOTIONS.

(1) Resumption of the following motion moved by Mr. B. A. BERNACCHI at the meeting of the Council held on 2nd November, 1971:-

"That this Council endorse the Statement of Aims for 1972."

CHAIRMAN:-Ladies and gentlemen, we will now resume the debate on the Motion "That this Council endorse the Statement of Aims for 1972", the Official Members replying to the points raised by our Unofficial colleagues at the meeting held on 2nd and 4th November. The first speaker today is The Commissioner for Resettle-

ment.

COMMISSIONER FOR RESETTLEMENT: —Mr. Chairman, this debate, in which the Council will adopt its aims in the resettlement field for the coming year is, I believe, an occasion for taking stock, for rec- ognizing success and failure, for drawing the right conclusions from what has gone past and for setting our sights on the right targets for the coming year. I intend therefore, once I have dealt with specific points made by individual members, to roam more widely and I hope therefore that Members will bear with me while I offer a few thoughts along these lines, and allow me to speak for rather longer than I would have wished.

1971 — Page 198

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