1971 — Page 140

Urban Council Proceedings 市政局議事錄 All AI Reviewed

Page 140 of 242

260

HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL

MR. R. H. LOBO, CHAIRMAN OF THE HAWKER MANAGEMENT SELECT COMMITTEE replied as follows:

I should like to thank Mrs. ELLIOTT for bringing up this matter. Since as long ago as July 1970, the Urban Services Department and the Hawker Management Select Committee have been studying this problem with a view to introducing a greater degree of flexibility in our control measures. However, owing to other matters claiming higher priorities, we have not yet had an opportunity of experimenting with the various proposals. I should like to point out that their implementation would involve detailed examination of all the existing 1,925 sites and agreement in each and every case with the other authorities concerned.

I should like to assure Mrs. ELLIOTT that the matter has not been lost sight of and will be further discussed by the Hawker Management Select Committee in the not too distant future subject to the claims of other priorities.

MRS. ELLIOTT:- Mr. Chairman, I think this answer is very vague and full of possibilities and probabilities such as "not too distant futures" and what-not, but in the meantime the Police are taking action against all hawkers who make their stalls more than one foot wide. Can we inform the Police of this so that they don't go on taking action when there is this likelihood of a change?

CHAIRMAN:- I am afraid not, Mrs. ELLIOTT. You cannot generalize on a subject like this. Each site has its problems. Some are on sites where there is no obstruction; other sites cause very great obstruction and are not helped by the newspaper hawkers sitting in front of the stall with all their boxes and other paraphernalia and their families having meals. So it wouldn't be possible to do this, Mrs. ELLIOTT.

MRS. ELLIOTT:- Mr. Chairman, I wasn't asking for room for hawkers to have their meals, but I think you know that we are going to widen the stalls. Why can't we do something quickly?

CHAIRMAN:- I do not expect the stalls to be widened yet, Mrs. ELLIOTT, nor, as I say, can you generalize. There may be some sites where this is just not possible.

MR. C. K. CHAN:- Mr. Chairman, I am very grateful that Mr. LOBO is willing to take it from here. Perhaps this matter will probably involve amending the law, the By-law, regarding regulating the sites. Perhaps this can be brought up to the Hawker Policy Committee for considering the policy as a whole and if necessary amending the By-laws to accommodate a larger size with greater facilities?

HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL

261

CHAIRMAN: I am sure that the Management Select Committee will look into this in the first instance and perhaps make recommendations where they think necessary to the Policy Select Committee.

MRS. ELLIOTT:- Mr. Chairman, on a point of clarification, hasn't this already been discussed by Policy and decided that something must be done to change it?

CHAIRMAN:- Not to my knowledge, Mrs. ELLIOTT, but I may be out of date.

MRS. ELLIOTT: I suggest you look up the minutes then.

MR. LOBO: We did discuss this as I am sure Mrs. ELLIOTT will recall, and Mr. CHAN will remember that in July 1970, we did discuss in committee that we should have sizes not greater than a total of 12 sq. ft. In other words, 2′ x 6', 3′ x 4', but this had to be planned, as you just said, Sir, on the location. We cannot—it is unrealistic, to accept 1,925 stalls all of 2' x 6' or 3' x 4', as this would depend on the location, the area where the selling is greatest; the width of the pavement and so on. We have been bogged down, progress has not been as fast as we anticipated because there have been a considerable number of appeals which the department spends hours and hours looking into, and several other operations which the Council had to work on. I am sure that if and when some of these problems are finished with, then we could really get onto more realistic work.

MR. T. S. LO:- On a point of clarification, Mr. Chairman, Mrs. ELLIOTT's question referred to a number of prosecutions by the Police. Were the Police prosecuting hawkers for having over-size stalls contrary to regulations or were the Police prosecuting for obstruction. If the former, I see the point of the question. If the latter, even if we do increase the permitted sizes, it will not reduce police prosecution.

MRS. ELLIOTT:- Mr. Chairman, if I may clarify that. The Newspapers Hawkers' Association complained that the Police were prosecuting people with stalls one foot wide which is the present size, not more than one foot wide, but if you look at some of the newspaper stalls, you will see they shut their eyes quite a lot on other stalls.

MR. C. K. CHAN:- Just one more point, if Mr. LOBO is really going to discuss this, perhaps, may I suggest that we invite a representative of the Police along to the Management Committee for discussion of this particular issue.

MR. LOBO:- I think that this matter should first be discussed in committee and later on the Police, because I don't think the Police, I am sure, will follow what the Council has agreed?

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Page 140 of 242 260 HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL MR. R. H. LOBO, CHAIRMAN OF THE HAWKER MANAGEMENT SELECT COMMITTEE replied as follows: I should like to thank Mrs. ELLIOTT for bringing up this matter. Since as long ago as July 1970, the Urban Services Department and the Hawker Management Select Committee have been studying this problem with a view to introducing a greater degree of flexibility in our control measures. However, owing to other matters claiming higher priorities, we have not yet had an opportunity of experimenting with the various proposals. I should like to point out that their implementation would involve detailed examination of all the existing 1,925 sites and agreement in each and every case with the other authorities concerned. I should like to assure Mrs. ELLIOTT that the matter has not been lost sight of and will be further discussed by the Hawker Management Select Committee in the not too distant future subject to the claims of other priorities. MRS. ELLIOTT:- Mr. Chairman, I think this answer is very vague and full of possibilities and probabilities such as "not too distant futures" and what-not, but in the meantime the Police are taking action against all hawkers who make their stalls more than one foot wide. Can we inform the Police of this so that they don't go on taking action when there is this likelihood of a change? CHAIRMAN:- I am afraid not, Mrs. ELLIOTT. You cannot generalize on a subject like this. Each site has its problems. Some are on sites where there is no obstruction; other sites cause very great obstruction and are not helped by the newspaper hawkers sitting in front of the stall with all their boxes and other paraphernalia and their families having meals. So it wouldn't be possible to do this, Mrs. ELLIOTT. MRS. ELLIOTT:- Mr. Chairman, I wasn't asking for room for hawkers to have their meals, but I think you know that we are going to widen the stalls. Why can't we do something quickly? CHAIRMAN:- I do not expect the stalls to be widened yet, Mrs. ELLIOTT, nor, as I say, can you generalize. There may be some sites where this is just not possible. MR. C. K. CHAN:- Mr. Chairman, I am very grateful that Mr. LOBO is willing to take it from here. Perhaps this matter will probably involve amending the law, the By-law, regarding regulating the sites. Perhaps this can be brought up to the Hawker Policy Committee for considering the policy as a whole and if necessary amending the By-laws to accommodate a larger size with greater facilities? HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL 261 CHAIRMAN: I am sure that the Management Select Committee will look into this in the first instance and perhaps make recommendations where they think necessary to the Policy Select Committee. MRS. ELLIOTT:- Mr. Chairman, on a point of clarification, hasn't this already been discussed by Policy and decided that something must be done to change it? CHAIRMAN:- Not to my knowledge, Mrs. ELLIOTT, but I may be out of date. MRS. ELLIOTT: I suggest you look up the minutes then. MR. LOBO: We did discuss this as I am sure Mrs. ELLIOTT will recall, and Mr. CHAN will remember that in July 1970, we did discuss in committee that we should have sizes not greater than a total of 12 sq. ft. In other words, 2′ x 6', 3′ x 4', but this had to be planned, as you just said, Sir, on the location. We cannot—it is unrealistic, to accept 1,925 stalls all of 2' x 6' or 3' x 4', as this would depend on the location, the area where the selling is greatest; the width of the pavement and so on. We have been bogged down, progress has not been as fast as we anticipated because there have been a considerable number of appeals which the department spends hours and hours looking into, and several other operations which the Council had to work on. I am sure that if and when some of these problems are finished with, then we could really get onto more realistic work. MR. T. S. LO:- On a point of clarification, Mr. Chairman, Mrs. ELLIOTT's question referred to a number of prosecutions by the Police. Were the Police prosecuting hawkers for having over-size stalls contrary to regulations or were the Police prosecuting for obstruction. If the former, I see the point of the question. If the latter, even if we do increase the permitted sizes, it will not reduce police prosecution. MRS. ELLIOTT:- Mr. Chairman, if I may clarify that. The Newspapers Hawkers' Association complained that the Police were prosecuting people with stalls one foot wide which is the present size, not more than one foot wide, but if you look at some of the newspaper stalls, you will see they shut their eyes quite a lot on other stalls. MR. C. K. CHAN:- Just one more point, if Mr. LOBO is really going to discuss this, perhaps, may I suggest that we invite a representative of the Police along to the Management Committee for discussion of this particular issue. MR. LOBO:- I think that this matter should first be discussed in committee and later on the Police, because I don't think the Police, I am sure, will follow what the Council has agreed? Page 140 Page 141

Baseline (Original)

242 Page 140 of 242 260 HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL MR. R. H. LOBO, CHAIRMAN OF THE HAWKER MANAGEMENT SELECT COMMITTEE replied as follows: I should like to thank Mrs. ELLIOTT for bringing up this matter. Since as long ago as July 1970, the Urban Services Department and the Hawker Management Select Committee have been studying this problem with a view to introducing a greater degree of flexibility in our control measures. However, owing to other matters claiming higher priorities, we have not yet had an opportunity of experimenting with the various proposals. I should like to point out that their implementation would involve detailed examination of all the existing 1,925 sites and agreement in each and every case with the other authorities concerned. I should like to assure Mrs. ELLIOTT that the matter has not been lost sight of and will be further discussed by the Hawker Management Select Committee in the not too distant future subject to the claims of other priorities. MRS. ELLIOTT:-Mr. Chairman, I think this answer is very vague and full of possibilities and probabilities such as "not too distant futures" and what-not, but in the meantime the Police are taking action against all hawkers who make their stalls more than one foot wide. Can we inform the Police of this so that they don't go on taking action when there is this likelihood of a change? CHAIRMAN:-I am afraid not, Mrs. ELLIOTT. You cannot gen- eralize on a subject like this. Each site has its problems. Some are on sites where there is no obstruction; other sites cause very great obstruction and are not helped by the newspaper hawkers sitting in front of the stall with all their boxes and other paraphernalia and their families having meals. So it wouldn't be possible to do this, Mrs. ELLIOTT. MRS. ELLIOTT:-Mr. Chairman, I wasn't asking for room for hawkers to have their meals, but I think you know that we are going to widen the stalls. Why can't we do something quickly? CHAIRMAN:-I do not expect the stalls to be widened yet, Mrs. ELLIOTT, nor, as I say, can you generalize. There may be some sites where this is just not possible. MR. C. K. CHAN:-Mr. Chairman, I am very grateful that Mr. LOBO is willing to take it from here. Perhaps this matter will probably involve amending the law, the By-law, regarding regulating the sites. Perhaps this can be brought up to the Hawker Policy Committee for considering the policy as a whole and if necessary amending the By- laws to accommodate a larger size with greater facilities? HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL 261 CHAIRMAN: I am sure that the Management Select Committee will look into this in the first instance and perhaps make recommenda- tions where they think necessary to the Policy Select Committee. MRS. ELLIOTT:-Mr. Chairman, on a point of clarification, hasn't this already been discussed by Policy and decided that something must be done to change it? CHAIRMAN:-Not to my knowledge, Mrs. ELLIOTT, but I may be out of date. MRS. ELLIOTT: I suggest you look up the minutes then. MR. LOBO: We did discuss this as I am sure Mrs. ELLIOTT Will recall, and Mr. CHAN will remember that in July 1970, we did discuss in committee that we should have sizes not greater than a total of 12 sq. ft. In other words, 2′ x 6', 3′ x 4', but this had to be planned, as you just said, Sir, on the location. We cannot-it is unrealistic, to accept 1,925 stalls all of 2' x 6' or 3' x 4', as this would depend on the location, the area where the selling is greatest; the width of the pavement and so on. We have been bogged down, progress has not been as fast as we anticipated because there have been a considerable number of appeals which the department spends hours and hours looking into, and several other operations which the Council had to work on. I am sure that if and when some of these problems are finished with, then we could really get onto more realistic work. MR. T. S. Lo:-On a point of clarification, Mr. Chairman, Mrs. ELLIOTT's question referred to a number of prosecutions by the Police. Were the Police prosecuting hawkers for having over-size stalls contrary to regulations or were the Police prosecuting for obstruction. If the former, I see the point of the question. If the latter, even if we do increase the permitted sizes, it will not reduce police prosecution. MRS. ELLIOTT:-Mr. Chairman, if I may clarify that. The News- papers Hawkers' Association complained that the Police were prosecut- ing people with stalls one foot wide which is the present size, not more than one foot wide, but if you look at some of the newspaper stalls, you will see they shut their eyes quite a lot on other stalls. MR. C. K. CHAN:-Just one more point, if Mr. LOBO is really going to discuss this, perhaps, may I suggest that we invite a representa- tive of the Police along to the Management Committee for discussion of this particular issue. MR. LOBO:-I think that this matter should first be discussed in committee and later on the Police, because I don't think the Police, I am sure, will follow what the Council has agreed? Page 140Page 141

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242

Page 140 of 242

260

HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL

MR. R. H. LOBO, CHAIRMAN OF THE HAWKER MANAGEMENT SELECT COMMITTEE replied as follows:

MRS. ELLIOTT:-Mr. Chairman, I think this answer is very vague and full of possibilities and probabilities such as "not too distant futures" and what-not, but in the meantime the Police are taking action against all hawkers who make their stalls more than one foot wide. Can we inform the Police of this so that they don't go on taking action when there is this likelihood of a change?

CHAIRMAN:-I am afraid not, Mrs. ELLIOTT. You cannot gen- eralize on a subject like this. Each site has its problems. Some are on sites where there is no obstruction; other sites cause very great obstruction and are not helped by the newspaper hawkers sitting in front of the stall with all their boxes and other paraphernalia and their families having meals. So it wouldn't be possible to do this, Mrs. ELLIOTT.

MRS. ELLIOTT:-Mr. Chairman, I wasn't asking for room for hawkers to have their meals, but I think you know that we are going to widen the stalls. Why can't we do something quickly?

CHAIRMAN:-I do not expect the stalls to be widened yet, Mrs. ELLIOTT, nor, as I say, can you generalize. There may be some sites where this is just not possible.

MR. C. K. CHAN:-Mr. Chairman, I am very grateful that Mr. LOBO is willing to take it from here. Perhaps this matter will probably involve amending the law, the By-law, regarding regulating the sites. Perhaps this can be brought up to the Hawker Policy Committee for considering the policy as a whole and if necessary amending the By- laws to accommodate a larger size with greater facilities?

HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL

261

CHAIRMAN: I am sure that the Management Select Committee will look into this in the first instance and perhaps make recommenda- tions where they think necessary to the Policy Select Committee.

MRS. ELLIOTT:-Mr. Chairman, on a point of clarification, hasn't this already been discussed by Policy and decided that something must be done to change it?

CHAIRMAN:-Not to my knowledge, Mrs. ELLIOTT, but I may be out of date.

MRS. ELLIOTT: I suggest you look up the minutes then.

MR. LOBO: We did discuss this as I am sure Mrs. ELLIOTT Will recall, and Mr. CHAN will remember that in July 1970, we did discuss in committee that we should have sizes not greater than a total of 12 sq. ft. In other words, 2′ x 6', 3′ x 4', but this had to be planned, as you just said, Sir, on the location. We cannot-it is unrealistic, to accept 1,925 stalls all of 2' x 6' or 3' x 4', as this would depend on the location, the area where the selling is greatest; the width of the pavement and so on. We have been bogged down, progress has not been as fast as we anticipated because there have been a considerable number of appeals which the department spends hours and hours looking into, and several other operations which the Council had to work on. I am sure that if and when some of these problems are finished with, then we could really get onto more realistic work.

MR. T. S. Lo:-On a point of clarification, Mr. Chairman, Mrs. ELLIOTT's question referred to a number of prosecutions by the Police. Were the Police prosecuting hawkers for having over-size stalls contrary to regulations or were the Police prosecuting for obstruction. If the former, I see the point of the question. If the latter, even if we do increase the permitted sizes, it will not reduce police prosecution.

MRS. ELLIOTT:-Mr. Chairman, if I may clarify that. The News- papers Hawkers' Association complained that the Police were prosecut- ing people with stalls one foot wide which is the present size, not more than one foot wide, but if you look at some of the newspaper stalls, you will see they shut their eyes quite a lot on other stalls.

MR. C. K. CHAN:-Just one more point, if Mr. LOBO is really going to discuss this, perhaps, may I suggest that we invite a representa- tive of the Police along to the Management Committee for discussion of this particular issue.

MR. LOBO:-I think that this matter should first be discussed in committee and later on the Police, because I don't think the Police, I am sure, will follow what the Council has agreed?

1971 — Page 140

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