1970 — Page 50

Urban Council Proceedings 市政局議事錄 All AI Reviewed

Page 50 of 241

HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL

MR. BERNACCHI :- Mr. Chairman, the changes in succession policy have been instituted comparatively recently. Now, I would ask two supplementaries. First of all, the hawkers' associations claim that they are entitled to be informed of important changes concerning hawker policy. What has the department to say about this entitlement? Does the department consider that they are entitled, as regular hawker bodies, to be informed or not?

MR. CHEONG-LEEN :- Mr. Chairman, might I, for the elucidation of other Members of this Council, mention that the variation on policy regarding succession took place at the January meeting of the Council. I believe that Mr. BERNACCHI was still in town, although he was not a Member of the Committee, but if he has not received a copy of the relevant minutes I suggest that the Secretary send a copy of them to him for his information and, as a matter of fact, what I have stated in my reply as regards the position regarding succession is taken from the minutes of the Policy Select Committee. It was a very long meeting which was held, and I do believe that the Committee decided by a majority vote on this particular issue. Now, as is implied in the reply, Mr. Chairman, policy is something that has to take into consideration the difficulties as they arise when implemented, and as is seen by the reply, we are doing everything we can to assist the hawkers. Now, as has been mentioned by Mr. CHAN, who is a member of both the Hawker Policy and Hawker Management Committees, he has been in touch with all the hawkers' associations, and even though it was on an informal basis they apparently have some idea of what the policy intended to do, which was that, in future, there should be no automatic succession as of right to any hawker stall, but, we are trying to assist the Hawker Management Select Committee to narrow down what represents exceptional and deserving circumstances and, as a member of that Select Committee, I think Mr. BERNACCHI can make an important contribution in the light of his 14 years as Chairman of the Hawker Policy Select Committee.

MR. BERNACCHI :- My learned comrade, Mr. Hilton CHEONG-LEEN, as Chairman of the Hawker Policy Select Committee, has been talking around the supplementary question. It is a perfectly simple question - what has the department and the Hawker Policy Select Committee indeed to say about the claim that responsible hawkers associations are entitled to be informed of any important change in hawker policy. Do they agree, or do they disagree with that claim?

MR. CHEONG-LEEN :- Mr. Chairman, as I have stated, it is not a question of entitlement, it is what actually happens in practice. As I have said in my reply, as soon as the survey has been completed, which could have an important bearing on our existing policy, the department will make available to the public, as well as to hawkers' associations, a more comprehensive paper as regards the policy of the Urban Council. It is not a question of what they are entitled to receive, it is a question of what the public is entitled to know. After all, hawkers' associations are part of the public. We have to represent the rights of hawkers as well as the rights of the public.

MR. BERNACCHI :- The second supplementary question. Could the Chairman of the Hawker Policy Select Committee inform the Council why the change was made in the policy of succession before the detailed survey had been completed?

MR. CHEONG-LEEN : Mr. Chairman, I believe that this arose primarily in the light of the proceedings and responsibilities of the Management Select Committee. I believe that Members of the Management Select Committee and the Chairman of that Committee have discussed this particular issue with the department, and in the light of the various problems which had arisen, it was brought to the attention of the Policy Select Committee, discussed, and a decision was taken. It is as simple as that.

MR. HU :-- I think I would ask one supplementary, Mr. Chairman. After 3rd May, 1969 announcement concerning hawker policy, did the Chairman of the Hawker Policy Select Committee make any statement in this Council about the policy of hawking matters?

MR. CHEONG-LEEN :- After 3rd May, what date was that?

MR. HU : 3rd May, 1969.

MR. CHEONG-LEEN :- Mr. Chairman, various statements have been made by me as Chairman at meetings of the Urban Council, indicating progress of implementation by the department of our policy. To refresh Mr. Hu's memory, I would suggest the Secretary collate those papers and send them to him.

MR. HU : I think, Mr. Chairman, my memory needs to be refreshed, because after I had left the Hawker Select Committee in April last year, I was not even presented with a single piece of paper about Hawker Select Committee matters, so I would be grateful for the papers.

(9) MR. HENRY H. L. Hu asked the following question :-

I understand that the Council will not further issue any Pedlar Hawker Licences. Could the Chairman inform the Council whether it is true? If so, whether the Social Welfare Department was consulted before such decision

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Page 50 of 241 82 HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL MR. BERNACCHI :- Mr. Chairman, the changes in succession policy have been instituted comparatively recently. Now, I would ask two supplementaries. First of all, the hawkers' associations claim that they are entitled to be informed of important changes concerning hawker policy. What has the department to say about this entitlement? Does the department consider that they are entitled, as regular hawker bodies, to be informed or not? MR. CHEONG-LEEN :- Mr. Chairman, might I, for the elucidation of other Members of this Council, mention that the variation on policy regarding succession took place at the January meeting of the Council. I believe that Mr. BERNACCHI was still in town, although he was not a Member of the Committee, but if he has not received a copy of the relevant minutes I suggest that the Secretary send a copy of them to him for his information and, as a matter of fact, what I have stated in my reply as regards the position regarding succession is taken from the minutes of the Policy Select Committee. It was a very long meeting which was held, and I do believe that the Committee decided by a majority vote on this particular issue. Now, as is implied in the reply, Mr. Chairman, policy is something that has to take into consideration the difficulties as they arise when implemented, and as is seen by the reply, we are doing everything we can to assist the hawkers. Now, as has been mentioned by Mr. CHAN, who is a member of both the Hawker Policy and Hawker Management Committees, he has been in touch with all the hawkers' associations, and even though it was on an informal basis they apparently have some idea of what the policy intended to do, which was that, in future, there should be no automatic succession as of right to any hawker stall, but, we are trying to assist the Hawker Management Select Committee to narrow down what represents exceptional and deserving circumstances and, as a member of that Select Committee, I think Mr. BERNACCHI can make an important contribution in the light of his 14 years as Chairman of the Hawker Policy Select Committee. MR. BERNACCHI :- My learned comrade, Mr. Hilton CHEONG-LEEN, as Chairman of the Hawker Policy Select Committee, has been talking around the supplementary question. It is a perfectly simple question - what has the department and the Hawker Policy Select Committee indeed to say about the claim that responsible hawkers associations are entitled to be informed of any important change in hawker policy. Do they agree, or do they disagree with that claim? MR. CHEONG-LEEN :- Mr. Chairman, as I have stated, it is not a question of entitlement, it is what actually happens in practice. As I have said in my reply, as soon as the survey has been completed, which could have an important bearing on our existing policy, the department will make available to the public, as well as to hawkers' associations, a more comprehensive paper as regards the policy of the Urban Council. It is not a question of what they are entitled to receive, it is a question of what the public is entitled to know. After all, hawkers' associations are part of the public. We have to represent the rights of hawkers as well as the rights of the public. MR. BERNACCHI :- The second supplementary question. Could the Chairman of the Hawker Policy Select Committee inform the Council why the change was made in the policy of succession before the detailed survey had been completed? MR. CHEONG-LEEN : Mr. Chairman, I believe that this arose primarily in the light of the proceedings and responsibilities of the Management Select Committee. I believe that Members of the Management Select Committee and the Chairman of that Committee have discussed this particular issue with the department, and in the light of the various problems which had arisen, it was brought to the attention of the Policy Select Committee, discussed, and a decision was taken. It is as simple as that. MR. HU :-- I think I would ask one supplementary, Mr. Chairman. After 3rd May, 1969 announcement concerning hawker policy, did the Chairman of the Hawker Policy Select Committee make any statement in this Council about the policy of hawking matters? MR. CHEONG-LEEN :- After 3rd May, what date was that? MR. HU : 3rd May, 1969. MR. CHEONG-LEEN :- Mr. Chairman, various statements have been made by me as Chairman at meetings of the Urban Council, indicating progress of implementation by the department of our policy. To refresh Mr. Hu's memory, I would suggest the Secretary collate those papers and send them to him. MR. HU : I think, Mr. Chairman, my memory needs to be refreshed, because after I had left the Hawker Select Committee in April last year, I was not even presented with a single piece of paper about Hawker Select Committee matters, so I would be grateful for the papers. (9) MR. HENRY H. L. Hu asked the following question :- I understand that the Council will not further issue any Pedlar Hawker Licences. Could the Chairman inform the Council whether it is true? If so, whether the Social Welfare Department was consulted before such decision Page 50 Page 51 Pa

Baseline (Original)

Page 50 of 241 82 HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL MR. BERNACCHI :-Mr. Chairman, the changes in succession policy have been instituted comparatively recently. Now, I would ask two supplementaries. First of all, the hawkers' associations claim that they are entitled to be informed of important changes concerning hawker policy. What has the department to say about this entitlement? Does the department consider that they are entitled, as regular hawker bodies, to be informed or not? MR. CHEONG-LEEN:-Mr. Chairman, might I, for the elucidation of other Members of this Council, mention that the variation on policy regarding succession took place at the January meeting of the Council. I believe that Mr. BERNACCHI was still in town, although he was not a Member of the Committee, but if he has not received a copy of the relevant minutes I suggest that the Secretary send a copy of them to him for his information and, as a matter of fact, what I have stated in my reply as regards the position regarding succession is taken from the minutes of the Policy Select Committee. It was a very long meeting which was held, and I do believe that the Committee decided by a majority vote on this particular issue. Now, as is implied in the reply, Mr. Chairman, policy is something that has to take into consideration the difficulties as they arise when implemented, and as is seen by the reply, we are doing everything we can to assist the hawkers. Now, as has been mentioned by Mr. CHAN, who is a member of both the Hawker Policy and Hawker Management Committees, he has been in touch with all the hawkers' associations, and even though it was on an informal basis they apparently have some idea of what the policy intended to do, which was that, in future, there should be no automatic succession as of right to any hawker stall, but, we are trying to assist the Hawker Management Select Committee to narrow down what represents excep- tional and deserving circumstances and, as a member of that Select Committee, I think Mr. BERNACCHI can make an important contribution in the light of his 14 years as Chairman of the Hawker Policy Select Committee. MR. BERNACCHI :---My learned comrade, Mr. Hilton CHEONG-LEEN, as Chairman of the Hawker Policy Select Committee, has been talking around the supplementary question. It is perfectly simple question- what has the department and the Hawker Policy Select Committee indeed to say about the claim that responsible hawkers associations are entitled to be informed of any important change in hawker policy. Do they agree, or do they disagree with that claim? MR. CHEONG-LEEN:-Mr. Chairman, as I have stated, it is not a question of entitlement, it is what actually happens in practice. As I have said in my reply, as soon as the survey has been completed, which could have an important bearing on our existing policy, the department will make available to the public, as well as to hawkers' associations, : HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL 83 a more comprehensive paper as regards the policy of the Urban Council. It is not a question of what they are entitled to receive, it is a question of what the public is entitled to know. After all, hawkers' associations are part of the public. We have to represent the rights of hawkers as well as the rights of the public. MR. BERNACCHI:-The second supplementary question. Could the Chairman of the Hawker Policy Select Committee inform the Council why the change was made in the policy of succession before the detailed survey had been completed? MR. CHEONG-LEEN: Mr. Chairman, I believe that this arose primarily in the light of the proceedings and responsibilities of the Management Select Committee. I believe that Members of the Manage- ment Select Committee and the Chairman of that Committee have dis- cussed this particular issue with the department, and in the light of the various problems which had arisen, it was brought to the attention of the Policy Select Committee, discussed, and a decision was taken. It is as simple as that. MR. HU:--I think I would ask one supplementary, Mr. Chairman. After 3rd May, 1969 announcement concerning hawker policy, did the Chairman of the Hawker Policy Select Committee make any statement in this Council about the policy of hawking matters? MR. CHEONG-LEEN:-After 3rd May, what date was that? MR. HU: 3rd May, 1969. MR. CHEONG-LEEN:-Mr. Chairman, various statements have been made by me as Chairman at meetings of the Urban Council, indicating progress of implementation by the department of our policy. To refresh Mr. Hu's memory, I would suggest the Secretary collate those papers and send them to him. MR. HU: I think, Mr. Chairman, my memory needs to be re- freshed, because after I had left the Hawker Select Committee in April last year, I was not even presented with a single piece of paper about Hawker Select Committee matters, so I would be grateful for the papers. (9) MR. HENRY H. L. Hu asked the following question:- I understand that the Council will not further issue any Pedlar Hawker Licences. Could the Chairman inform the Council whether it is true? If so, whether the Social Welfare Department was consulted before such decision Page 50Page 51 Pa

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Page 50 of 241

HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL

MR. BERNACCHI :-Mr. Chairman, the changes in succession policy have been instituted comparatively recently. Now, I would ask two supplementaries. First of all, the hawkers' associations claim that they are entitled to be informed of important changes concerning hawker policy. What has the department to say about this entitlement? Does the department consider that they are entitled, as regular hawker bodies, to be informed or not?

MR. CHEONG-LEEN:-Mr. Chairman, might I, for the elucidation of other Members of this Council, mention that the variation on policy regarding succession took place at the January meeting of the Council. I believe that Mr. BERNACCHI was still in town, although he was not a Member of the Committee, but if he has not received a copy of the relevant minutes I suggest that the Secretary send a copy of them to him for his information and, as a matter of fact, what I have stated in my reply as regards the position regarding succession is taken from the minutes of the Policy Select Committee. It was a very long meeting which was held, and I do believe that the Committee decided by a majority vote on this particular issue. Now, as is implied in the reply, Mr. Chairman, policy is something that has to take into consideration the difficulties as they arise when implemented, and as is seen by the reply, we are doing everything we can to assist the hawkers. Now, as has been mentioned by Mr. CHAN, who is a member of both the Hawker Policy and Hawker Management Committees, he has been in touch with all the hawkers' associations, and even though it was on an informal basis they apparently have some idea of what the policy intended to do, which was that, in future, there should be no automatic succession as of right to any hawker stall, but, we are trying to assist the Hawker Management Select Committee to narrow down what represents excep- tional and deserving circumstances and, as a member of that Select Committee, I think Mr. BERNACCHI can make an important contribution in the light of his 14 years as Chairman of the Hawker Policy Select Committee.

MR. BERNACCHI :---My learned comrade, Mr. Hilton CHEONG-LEEN, as Chairman of the Hawker Policy Select Committee, has been talking around the supplementary question. It is perfectly simple question- what has the department and the Hawker Policy Select Committee indeed to say about the claim that responsible hawkers associations are entitled to be informed of any important change in hawker policy. Do they agree, or do they disagree with that claim?

HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL

a more comprehensive paper as regards the policy of the Urban Council. It is not a question of what they are entitled to receive, it is a question of what the public is entitled to know. After all, hawkers' associations are part of the public. We have to represent the rights of hawkers as well as the rights of the public.

MR. BERNACCHI:-The second supplementary question. Could the Chairman of the Hawker Policy Select Committee inform the Council why the change was made in the policy of succession before the detailed survey had been completed?

MR. CHEONG-LEEN: Mr. Chairman, I believe that this arose primarily in the light of the proceedings and responsibilities of the Management Select Committee. I believe that Members of the Manage- ment Select Committee and the Chairman of that Committee have dis- cussed this particular issue with the department, and in the light of the various problems which had arisen, it was brought to the attention of the Policy Select Committee, discussed, and a decision was taken. It is as simple as that.

MR. HU:--I think I would ask one supplementary, Mr. Chairman. After 3rd May, 1969 announcement concerning hawker policy, did the Chairman of the Hawker Policy Select Committee make any statement in this Council about the policy of hawking matters?

MR. CHEONG-LEEN:-After 3rd May, what date was that?

MR. HU: 3rd May, 1969.

MR. CHEONG-LEEN:-Mr. Chairman, various statements have been made by me as Chairman at meetings of the Urban Council, indicating progress of implementation by the department of our policy. To refresh Mr. Hu's memory, I would suggest the Secretary collate those papers and send them to him.

MR. HU: I think, Mr. Chairman, my memory needs to be re- freshed, because after I had left the Hawker Select Committee in April last year, I was not even presented with a single piece of paper about Hawker Select Committee matters, so I would be grateful for the papers.

1970 — Page 50

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