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ourselves in a position of being, perhaps, silly, if the translations have not been done properly.

I am told that a few years ago in a meeting which Mr. Hu referred to as the mock meeting, that the chairman was stumped when he came to the word "casting vote", because he, although he was a Chinese, did not realize what the term was. I think there's good deal of this, unfortunately. We must reach our people. Now, whether we want to reach them in a month or two, or perhaps later in the day, is some- thing for the Council to decide. I will support this with a word of caution, that I would like our preparations to be made very, very carefully. I think if we were to do this thing the first time in the history of Hong Kong, it should be done well.

MR. SALES-Sir, may I have your permission to clarify a point? A reference has been made to the first experiment conducted by the Urban Council in the City Hall. It was not a failure; it was a success, despite the strong efforts made by Mr. BERNACCHI and Mr. Henry Hu to undermine the experiment by speaking in Cantonese— (Laughter). If Mr. Hu and Mr. BERNACCHI will promise not to upset the next experiment and not speak in Cantonese, then I'm sure it will be a resounding success. I will still offer my services as a Cantonese interpreter. I was deeply hurt that Mr. Henry Hu, such a great friend of mine, rejected this offer. (Laughter).

Chairman :-Any further speakers?

SECRETARY FOR HOME AFFAIRS: -Mr. Chairman, I find myself in support of much of what has been said, but don't find this leads me to support the Motion. Mr. Henry Hu and Mr. BERNACCHI have both talked about the matter having been referred to a select Committee, and then lost. Why was it lost? There was no explanation for this. We were not given an account of the select committee's proceedings, or its consideration. Mr. CHEONG-LEEN referred to making concrete plans. Mr. RAFEEK referred to problems which couldn't be solved overnight. Mr. SALES says, on the other hand, we are not concerned with the mechanics. I don't think that the simple passing of a resolution, or even the amendment of an ordinance would solve the problem. We have heard-we have been informed that the Government is going to appoint a committee to examine the further official use of Chinese. Surely, Sir, the reaction of this Council should now be to revive what- ever the moribund select committee did, find out what the problems are, solve them, and when the committee is appointed, present the solutions to these problems to the new committee examining the subject. It will obviously take time to examine the matter, to solve the problems we have been told about, which won't be solved overnight, and to refer these solutions to the new committee. In this way progress in achieving the aim will be much faster. I would, therefore, like to propose that

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the select committee which previously studied the problem should revive its studies and complete them, and get some action instead of passing motions.

MR. SALES: Sir, can I clarify the position? There is no select committee. In point of fact, a special committee was appointed by the Standing Committee of the Council as a whole, and that committee reported to the Council, and perhaps you would like to ask the Secretary eventually to issue a paper where the matter rested. Sir, there was no failure on the part of that special committee. That special committee completed its job, reported to the Council and the matter was left there, and that was incorporated in the two reports of the Urban Council submitted to the Government for the reform of the local administration. So, the matter was pursued to its logical conclusion. It is that proposal, found in both reports submitted to the Government, about which we used, Sir, earlier in reply to a question this afternoon.

MR. CHEONG-LEEN: Mr. Chairman, with your permission, since Mr. BRAY has made reference to what he called concrete plans which I made when I spoke in support of the Motion, I would like to clarify that such proposals have been put to the Secretary of the Urban Council with the request that they be referred to the Local Administration Select Committee for consideration.

CHAIRMAN:-There is a proposal that this Motion be amended. Mr. BRAY has suggested that this go back to the select committee. Any seconder to this? (There was no seconder).

May I also say that I have every sympathy with this Motion, but as it stands I feel I must abstain, because, as I have already pointed out, it doesn't go far enough. It does not get Chinese speaking mem- bers on to this Council, and it is not clear to me whether the use of "Chinese" in the Motion cuts across this Council's already agreed pro- posal to have "Cantonese". I shall now take a vote on this Motion.

MRS. SYMONS:-Mr. Chairman, may I ask Mr. Hu whether he meant "soon", and if he answers "yes", would it be "very, very soon”, before we are ready to have both English and Chinese used. If someone waves a wand and says yes you may use Chinese, will we be using Chinese immediately, because if that is the case I'm afraid I can't vote. I would very, very gladly support this, after adequate study.

CHAIRMAN:-Legally, the position is that we are tied to English until the law is amended, and similarly with Standing Orders.

MR. HU:-I think Mrs. SYMONS' query and Mr. Chairman's query are more or less the same. I would answer in this way. First, I re- member that in 1966, during, before and after the mock meeting, which took place on 7th October, 1966, it was intimated by some of my